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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:56 am 
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Another crucial Vettel-mistake. Unbelievable!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:58 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Another crucial Vettel-mistake. Unbelievable!

This may well be Vettel's worst ever season. Got to be up there with 2014 but at least in that year the title wasn't on the line.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:08 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
This may well be Vettel's worst ever season. Got to be up there with 2014 but at least in that year the title wasn't on the line.

To be fair he's still comfortably out-done Raikkonen but he's seriously undermined his legitimacy as an all time great. You feel that Alonso or Verstappen would be breathing down Hamilton's neck. He's looking more like a very lucky Damon Hill than the next Michael Schumacher.

I fear things will only get worse with Charles set to push him as hard as Dan did in 2014.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:29 am 
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I would just like to say thank you to UnlikeUday for those sector times and speeds. Much appreciated!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:38 am 
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Ferrari drivers trying to match Merc didn't work their way, they should focus on Red Bull and 2019 now because Merc is untouchable now.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:45 am 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
This may well be Vettel's worst ever season. Got to be up there with 2014 but at least in that year the title wasn't on the line.

To be fair he's still comfortably out-done Raikkonen but he's seriously undermined his legitimacy as an all time great. You feel that Alonso or Verstappen would be breathing down Hamilton's neck. He's looking more like a very lucky Damon Hill than the next Michael Schumacher.

I fear things will only get worse with Charles set to push him as hard as Dan did in 2014.

I think the pressure of 'leading' Ferrari is getting to him. We've seen him put in error-less seasons before and pace wise he's fine.

He needs to work on his mental state IMO possibly seek out a sports psychologist, the Vettel of say 2013 or 2015 would be leading this championship, something has changed since Ferrari became genuine contenders.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:54 am 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
This may well be Vettel's worst ever season. Got to be up there with 2014 but at least in that year the title wasn't on the line.

To be fair he's still comfortably out-done Raikkonen but he's seriously undermined his legitimacy as an all time great. You feel that Alonso or Verstappen would be breathing down Hamilton's neck. He's looking more like a very lucky Damon Hill than the next Michael Schumacher.

I fear things will only get worse with Charles set to push him as hard as Dan did in 2014.

I would argue that Damon Hill was an unlucky Damon Hill, had Schumacher missed in Adelaide and Hill turned up in 95, he would have ended 97 a four times Neweymobile WDC...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:48 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
This may well be Vettel's worst ever season. Got to be up there with 2014 but at least in that year the title wasn't on the line.

To be fair he's still comfortably out-done Raikkonen but he's seriously undermined his legitimacy as an all time great. You feel that Alonso or Verstappen would be breathing down Hamilton's neck. He's looking more like a very lucky Damon Hill than the next Michael Schumacher.

I fear things will only get worse with Charles set to push him as hard as Dan did in 2014.


He is 70 points clear of Kimi, but Kimi has had 3 none fault DNFs to Vettels 0. If you switched the luck on those, Kimi could actaully be marginally ahead. He was been superior pace wise but it’s the errors.


Last edited by Johnson on Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Well, Sebastian has only ever won from grid positions 1, 2, or 3. Now he has a chance to improve on that statistic by scoring an impressive win from P9.

...or not!!! :?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ferrari messed up but Kimi still qualified 4th, Vettel qualifying 9th is on him.


Didn't they all ultimately get 1 lap in dry conditions? so yeah Vettel in 9th is more on him I think than the Ferrari strat.

Yeah I've actually heard all the reports now and actually the fault is on the drivers and not the team, Ferrari inadvertently gave them the slightly better conditions as the track had dried slightly, but both drivers went wide onto the wet kerbs, Vettel did it twice causing him to go off the track the second time.

Bottas said it was important to keep off the wet kerbs, this has to go down as yet another mistake by Vettel.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
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Hamilton only driver to have gone through on Softs, according to Dutch TV. And he's still 2 tenths faster than Vettel.

Bottas did as well.

According to the timing graphic above Bottas also used the SS. Dutch TV were making a bit of a song and dance about the fact that Hamilton was the only one. Are you sure?

Bottas went back out on SS but did not set a time, he set the lap on softs.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:40 pm 
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Llotyhy wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Llotyhy wrote:
Grosjean as well?


No. Grosjean came out on 2nd run on Softs which by then it started to rain enough for no one to improve!


On Dutch TV they're now claiming Grosjean was on soft as well in Q2, that would be amazing. I'll search for confirmation.

Grosjean confirmed this himself.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Llotyhy wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Llotyhy wrote:
Grosjean as well?


No. Grosjean came out on 2nd run on Softs which by then it started to rain enough for no one to improve!


On Dutch TV they're now claiming Grosjean was on soft as well in Q2, that would be amazing. I'll search for confirmation.

Grosjean confirmed this himself.


This is true. Haas took a gamble to send both cars on Softs. Luckily for Grosjean, his time was set when conditions were good. By the time other cars came out for their 2nd stint in Q2, none could improve to dislodge him. So he'll be starting on softs as well.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Hamilton only driver to have gone through on Softs, according to Dutch TV. And he's still 2 tenths faster than Vettel.

Bottas did as well.

According to the timing graphic above Bottas also used the SS. Dutch TV were making a bit of a song and dance about the fact that Hamilton was the only one. Are you sure?

Bottas went back out on SS but did not set a time, he set the lap on softs.

OK thanks. Dutch TV were all excited about Hamilton being the only driver in the top 10 to start on Softs but I guess they got completely mixed up


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Another crucial Vettel-mistake. Unbelievable!


You are just a pro Alonso and Vettel hater :uhoh:

The track was already little damp as Ferrari wasted some 3mins or so with inters. I do not think drivers can be blamed for it. It was a big risk as they were hoping the rain would come sooner and they will be first to put time on inter on ideal condition and track would get worse. Suzuka is probably the most dangerous track on wets with no room for error. Everyone are just overreacting if it had paid off it would have been a master stroke and probably the only way they could have got front row.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Another crucial Vettel-mistake. Unbelievable!


You are just a pro Alonso and Vettel hater :uhoh:

The track was already little damp as Ferrari wasted some 3mins or so with inters. I do not think drivers can be blamed for it. It was a big risk as they were hoping the rain would come sooner and they will be first to put time on inter on ideal condition and track would get worse. Suzuka is probably the most dangerous track on wets with no room for error. Everyone are just overreacting if it had paid off it would have been a master stroke and probably the only way they could have got front row.


I think he is more reffering to Vettel going off at the Spoon, Kimi still managed to salvage 4th despite also having a wobble there, Vettel qualifying 9th is certainly on his head as while pole was almost certainly gone, the conditions were obviously good enough to be able to get on the 2nd row. It's another small error with far reaching consequences, and over the course of this season they are all adding up to become something far larger. With Verstappen looking pretty racy, 4th is probably as high as he can be aiming before without a bit of divine intervention, and Ferrari weren't great on the tyres on the long runs either.

Not sure i'd want to be in the middle of the pack at T1 at Suzuka either, surrounded by drivers with nothing to really lose by getting a bit brave on the brakes.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Vettel keeps finding new ways to throw this away smh..

Vestappen took a nice jab at vettel in post quali interview when asked if he would not want to interfere in the title fight, Verstappen said: "Is it still a battle? I'm not sure." :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:25 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Ricciardo really upset:


That gives me an idea for a sound proof helmet. There seems to be a clear market need for it.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:45 pm 
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LBET wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Ricciardo really upset:


That gives me an idea for a sound proof helmet. There seems to be a clear market need for it.


Never seen Ricciardo so upset. Last time, it was in Monaco 2016!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:57 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
LBET wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Ricciardo really upset:


That gives me an idea for a sound proof helmet. There seems to be a clear market need for it.


Never seen Ricciardo so upset. Last time, it was in Monaco 2016!

Isn't once before more than never? :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Concerning Vettel, I am coming to a conclusion that Ferrari is very much lacking in stability of their car and Ferrari does not look as stable as Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:48 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Another crucial Vettel-mistake. Unbelievable!


You are just a pro Alonso and Vettel hater :uhoh:

The track was already little damp as Ferrari wasted some 3mins or so with inters. I do not think drivers can be blamed for it. It was a big risk as they were hoping the rain would come sooner and they will be first to put time on inter on ideal condition and track would get worse. Suzuka is probably the most dangerous track on wets with no room for error. Everyone are just overreacting if it had paid off it would have been a master stroke and probably the only way they could have got front row.


I am not sure what Alonso has to do with it?

I do not blame the drivers for the inter-choice but Vettel made two serious driving mistakes in his dry run (and it was still dry, see the STRs), one more than a weak looking Räikkönen. That's why he was 9th. Yet another driving mistake. Really unbelievable.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Concerning Vettel, I am coming to a conclusion that Ferrari is very much lacking in stability of their car and Ferrari does not look as stable as Mercedes.


IMO, Ferrari has a driver problem.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:35 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Concerning Vettel, I am coming to a conclusion that Ferrari is very much lacking in stability of their car and Ferrari does not look as stable as Mercedes.


IMO, Ferrari has a driver problem.


:nod:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:06 pm 
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Vettel's lap..... at least 2 mistakes before he finally does lose it completely at the Spoon. As for the comment about the car lacking stability, it looks fine through S1 until he goes into Dunlop too fast. Degna 2 has been a problem for Vettel for ages now, and running the wet kerb at the Spoon sealed the deal. The added pressure of having to get a lap in before the rain really did come and having less time to do it probably didn't help, but Vettel had screwed his lap long before he made the same mistake Kimi did at Spoon... kinda feels like desperation has set in.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Concerning Vettel, I am coming to a conclusion that Ferrari is very much lacking in stability of their car and Ferrari does not look as stable as Mercedes.


IMO, Ferrari has a driver problem.


:nod:


Exactly why LeClerc is a great choice.
Either Vettel pulls his finger out next year or they will start building a team around Leclerc.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:49 pm 
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Dunlop and especially Degner really didn't help him there but the big mistake seems to be one of deceleration. It's on lifting/downshifting at Spoon on the kerb that he loses it. I think if he'd come off the kerb before lifting he'd have held it, albeit with a compromised run to 130-R.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:58 pm 
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cm97 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Concerning Vettel, I am coming to a conclusion that Ferrari is very much lacking in stability of their car and Ferrari does not look as stable as Mercedes.


IMO, Ferrari has a driver problem.


:nod:


Exactly why LeClerc is a great choice.
Either Vettel pulls his finger out next year or they will start building a team around Leclerc.


But won't Vettel be number 1 driver, would Ferrari let LeClerc and Vettel race on equal terms?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:14 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
cm97 wrote:
Exactly why LeClerc is a great choice.
Either Vettel pulls his finger out next year or they will start building a team around Leclerc.

But won't Vettel be number 1 driver, would Ferrari let LeClerc and Vettel race on equal terms?

Why would they bring him in to be a #2? If they wanted to continue with that system, Kimi would have got his contract renewed.

Not trying to bring up a dead topic from another thread, but Kimi was only #2 from the start of the year because he was a known quantity vs. Vettel. Ferrari will give priority to the faster driver.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:36 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
cm97 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Concerning Vettel, I am coming to a conclusion that Ferrari is very much lacking in stability of their car and Ferrari does not look as stable as Mercedes.


IMO, Ferrari has a driver problem.


:nod:


Exactly why LeClerc is a great choice.
Either Vettel pulls his finger out next year or they will start building a team around Leclerc.


But won't Vettel be number 1 driver, would Ferrari let LeClerc and Vettel race on equal terms?

why wouldn't they?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:31 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
cm97 wrote:

Exactly why LeClerc is a great choice.
Either Vettel pulls his finger out next year or they will start building a team around Leclerc.


But won't Vettel be number 1 driver, would Ferrari let LeClerc and Vettel race on equal terms?

why wouldn't they?

Yeah I agree. They'll let them race at first and see how they stack up. Unequal status would only be the result of one of them fighting for the championship while the other cannot.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:31 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
cm97 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Concerning Vettel, I am coming to a conclusion that Ferrari is very much lacking in stability of their car and Ferrari does not look as stable as Mercedes.


IMO, Ferrari has a driver problem.


:nod:


Exactly why LeClerc is a great choice.
Either Vettel pulls his finger out next year or they will start building a team around Leclerc.


But won't Vettel be number 1 driver, would Ferrari let LeClerc and Vettel race on equal terms?


The number one and two driver status hasn’t worked for Ferrari since Michaels era. Their last two championships (2007 WDC and 2008 WCC) were the result of equal status. Unless Vettel proves his superiority, then they may as well run equal status.
I honestly feel that Vettel is too comfortable with Kimi hence the unforced errors over the last 18 months.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:39 pm 
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Because that's how they set the team up or is the talk of Vettel's 'veto' now nonsense?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:49 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Because that's how they set the team up or is the talk of Vettel's 'veto' now nonsense?

It always was... or he would have used it to keep Kimi. He's been very vocal that he wanted Kimi to stay, but clearly he doesn't have the ability to make that happen.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:05 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
cm97 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Concerning Vettel, I am coming to a conclusion that Ferrari is very much lacking in stability of their car and Ferrari does not look as stable as Mercedes.


IMO, Ferrari has a driver problem.


:nod:


Exactly why LeClerc is a great choice.
Either Vettel pulls his finger out next year or they will start building a team around Leclerc.


But won't Vettel be number 1 driver, would Ferrari let LeClerc and Vettel race on equal terms?


I have not heard that Sebastian has a #1 clause in his contract. Otherwise Team Red would be wise to let the two race for at least the first half of the year. After that they can go with one or the other depending on the points. I would have suspected that this year Ricciardo or Bottas could have ended up as the designated #1 if they had shown pace and accumulated the majority of points.

I have wondered about the wisdom or feasibility of implementing a team orders ban before the summer break. After the break then let the teams call the shots with no second guessing from the stewards or the FIA.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:34 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
cm97 wrote:

Exactly why LeClerc is a great choice.
Either Vettel pulls his finger out next year or they will start building a team around Leclerc.


But won't Vettel be number 1 driver, would Ferrari let LeClerc and Vettel race on equal terms?

why wouldn't they?

Yeah I agree. They'll let them race at first and see how they stack up. Unequal status would only be the result of one of them fighting for the championship while the other cannot.

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:43 am 
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cm97 wrote:

The number one and two driver status hasn’t worked for Ferrari since Michaels era. Their last two championships (2007 WDC and 2008 WCC) were the result of equal status. Unless Vettel proves his superiority, then they may as well run equal status.
I honestly feel that Vettel is too comfortable with Kimi hence the unforced errors over the last 18 months.


It has worked very well. Alonso challenged for the title in 2010 and 2012 in a long way from the best car. That never would have happened if his team mate was taking points from him.

Equal status worked in 2007/2008 because of the quality of the car. It was achieved inspite of not having a number one, not because of equal status. They were also forced to run equal status as no driver was consistently quicker - especially in 2007.

2009-2017 is nothing to do with status, they just didn’t build a fast enough car.


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