planetf1.com

It is currently Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:05 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6205
Location: Michigan, USA
FormulaFun wrote:
Exediron has already set out his stall in the Hamilton fans thread where he's already denounced all Hamilton fans as hypocrites (despite himself having no issue with team orders until now by his own admission so... Pot meet kettle) still waiting for any quote from him following this message that a number of 'prominent' Hamilton fans have had a massive change of heart about team orders, when in fact Hamilton fans merely understand the reasoning whilst not necessarily supporting the swap.

I didn't reply in the Hamilton thread because I was told off by a mod to end the discussion. I did my part and other people didn't, which is why that thread is now temporarily locked.

A few things to set the record straight:

a) I don't believe all Hamilton fans are hypocrites - on this issue, which is the only issue I'm accusing them of being hypocritical on - and I made certain in my later posts to point that out. I will admit that I have no proof it's a majority, that's simply my feeling.
b) I have no issue with team orders when they're necessary and get the team something. As I said, my issue with this team order is that it is not necessary, and it was delivered in a duplicitous fashion. If the goal was actually to protect Hamilton's tyres, they would have let Bottas win after the threat from Vettel was gone.

I have spent the last decade listening to predominantly Hamilton supporters talk Vettel and Alonso down for relying on team orders, saying that Hamilton doesn't need #1 status, he doesn't need team orders, etc. After the race, I was interested to see if the majority seemed to be defending this use of team orders, or if they would object to them. What I've seen is a handful of Hamilton fans sticking to their guns and denouncing the team orders (as you would expect from their past statements) and the majority (to my impression) scrambling instead to justify them. That is what stood out to me as hypocritical, and what I called as such.

I remember the 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix. In that race, Hamilton was ordered to let Rosberg through for the sake of the team result. He refused the order, and was applauded by many (if not most, as I can't say that for certain) of his fans. That order was about protecting a result - a win - for the team. This order was about protecting a result for the team, but because it also favors Hamilton, his fans appear to be in favor of it. That's how I read the situation, and to me that's a double standard. When Hamilton didn't get team orders, it was something to attack his rivals with. Now that he does, team orders are fine as long as they're justifiable by criteria that just happen to fit here.

Earlier in this very season, Ferrari got slammed for ordering Kimi out of the way in Germany, something that made obvious sense to do. They were ridiculed before the race even began for the perceived tactics they would use to get Vettel ahead of Kimi at Monza. Those were apparently bad team orders. What makes this a good one? The need to protect a huge championship lead with the best or equal-best car? No, simply the fact that it happens to favor the right driver.

So, in summary: I don't believe that all Hamilton fans are hypocrites. But any Hamilton fan who supports the team order in Sochi and previously attacked Vettel, Alonso - or anyone else - for benefitting from team orders, is.

And we both know such people do exist.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14263
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Exediron has already set out his stall in the Hamilton fans thread where he's already denounced all Hamilton fans as hypocrites (despite himself having no issue with team orders until now by his own admission so... Pot meet kettle) still waiting for any quote from him following this message that a number of 'prominent' Hamilton fans have had a massive change of heart about team orders, when in fact Hamilton fans merely understand the reasoning whilst not necessarily supporting the swap.

I didn't reply in the Hamilton thread because I was told off by a mod to end the discussion. I did my part and other people didn't, which is why that thread is now temporarily locked.

A few things to set the record straight:

a) I don't believe all Hamilton fans are hypocrites - on this issue, which is the only issue I'm accusing them of being hypocritical on - and I made certain in my later posts to point that out. I will admit that I have no proof it's a majority, that's simply my feeling.
b) I have no issue with team orders when they're necessary and get the team something. As I said, my issue with this team order is that it is not necessary, and it was delivered in a duplicitous fashion. If the goal was actually to protect Hamilton's tyres, they would have let Bottas win after the threat from Vettel was gone.

I have spent the last decade listening to predominantly Hamilton supporters talk Vettel and Alonso down for relying on team orders, saying that Hamilton doesn't need #1 status, he doesn't need team orders, etc. After the race, I was interested to see if the majority seemed to be defending this use of team orders, or if they would object to them. What I've seen is a handful of Hamilton fans sticking to their guns and denouncing the team orders (as you would expect from their past statements) and the majority (to my impression) scrambling instead to justify them. That is what stood out to me as hypocritical, and what I called as such.

I remember the 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix. In that race, Hamilton was ordered to let Rosberg through for the sake of the team result. He refused the order, and was applauded by many (if not most, as I can't say that for certain) of his fans. That order was about protecting a result - a win - for the team. This order was about protecting a result for the team, but because it also favors Hamilton, his fans appear to be in favor of it. That's how I read the situation, and to me that's a double standard. When Hamilton didn't get team orders, it was something to attack his rivals with. Now that he does, team orders are fine as long as they're justifiable by criteria that just happen to fit here.

Earlier in this very season, Ferrari got slammed for ordering Kimi out of the way in Germany, something that made obvious sense to do. They were ridiculed before the race even began for the perceived tactics they would use to get Vettel ahead of Kimi at Monza. Those were apparently bad team orders. What makes this a good one? The need to protect a huge championship lead with the best or equal-best car? No, simply the fact that it happens to favor the right driver.

So, in summary: I don't believe that all Hamilton fans are hypocrites. But any Hamilton fan who supports the team order in Sochi and previously attacked Vettel, Alonso - or anyone else - for benefitting from team orders, is.

And we both know such people do exist.


I think your whole premise is built on a misheld belief. Ferrari in no way got slammed for moving Kimi out of the way in Germany (perhaps by a tiny minority) Most people including some Hamilton fans slammed them for not doing it sooner and costing Vettel so much time. Secondly the championship lead isn't huge. A second place for Hamilton in Russia and the gap would be about the same as the one Kimi pulled back with just two races to go in 2007.

Ferrari got criticised in 2002 because what they did because it showed that Rubens would never have a chance of a championship and would always start as number 2 regardless. It would be like Merc deciding Hamilton was going to be champion in 2014 at race 1.

Ferrari got criticised in 2010 purely because what they did broke the rules.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 2953
Location: UK
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Exediron has already set out his stall in the Hamilton fans thread where he's already denounced all Hamilton fans as hypocrites (despite himself having no issue with team orders until now by his own admission so... Pot meet kettle) still waiting for any quote from him following this message that a number of 'prominent' Hamilton fans have had a massive change of heart about team orders, when in fact Hamilton fans merely understand the reasoning whilst not necessarily supporting the swap.

I didn't reply in the Hamilton thread because I was told off by a mod to end the discussion. I did my part and other people didn't, which is why that thread is now temporarily locked.

A few things to set the record straight:

a) I don't believe all Hamilton fans are hypocrites - on this issue, which is the only issue I'm accusing them of being hypocritical on - and I made certain in my later posts to point that out. I will admit that I have no proof it's a majority, that's simply my feeling.
b) I have no issue with team orders when they're necessary and get the team something. As I said, my issue with this team order is that it is not necessary, and it was delivered in a duplicitous fashion. If the goal was actually to protect Hamilton's tyres, they would have let Bottas win after the threat from Vettel was gone.

I have spent the last decade listening to predominantly Hamilton supporters talk Vettel and Alonso down for relying on team orders, saying that Hamilton doesn't need #1 status, he doesn't need team orders, etc. After the race, I was interested to see if the majority seemed to be defending this use of team orders, or if they would object to them. What I've seen is a handful of Hamilton fans sticking to their guns and denouncing the team orders (as you would expect from their past statements) and the majority (to my impression) scrambling instead to justify them. That is what stood out to me as hypocritical, and what I called as such.

I remember the 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix. In that race, Hamilton was ordered to let Rosberg through for the sake of the team result. He refused the order, and was applauded by many (if not most, as I can't say that for certain) of his fans. That order was about protecting a result - a win - for the team. This order was about protecting a result for the team, but because it also favors Hamilton, his fans appear to be in favor of it. That's how I read the situation, and to me that's a double standard. When Hamilton didn't get team orders, it was something to attack his rivals with. Now that he does, team orders are fine as long as they're justifiable by criteria that just happen to fit here.

Earlier in this very season, Ferrari got slammed for ordering Kimi out of the way in Germany, something that made obvious sense to do. They were ridiculed before the race even began for the perceived tactics they would use to get Vettel ahead of Kimi at Monza. Those were apparently bad team orders. What makes this a good one? The need to protect a huge championship lead with the best or equal-best car? No, simply the fact that it happens to favor the right driver.

So, in summary: I don't believe that all Hamilton fans are hypocrites. But any Hamilton fan who supports the team order in Sochi and previously attacked Vettel, Alonso - or anyone else - for benefitting from team orders, is.

And we both know such people do exist.

I think you are missing the crucial difference between a contractual number 1 status - where everything the team does revolves around the lead driver's WDC challenge right from the start of the season (and we saw in Bahrain this year that Hamilton enjoys no such undisputed number 1 status within the team) - and applying team orders to swap positions on track late on in the season when the title is at stake and the second driver is out of contention. There cannot be any more than a mere handful of people who have objected to any team doing the latter and yes that includes Hamilton's fanbase too; I recall no such uproar when Ferrari swapped Massa and Raikkonen over in China in 2008 because it was the obvious thing to do at that stage of the season.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2148
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Exediron has already set out his stall in the Hamilton fans thread where he's already denounced all Hamilton fans as hypocrites (despite himself having no issue with team orders until now by his own admission so... Pot meet kettle) still waiting for any quote from him following this message that a number of 'prominent' Hamilton fans have had a massive change of heart about team orders, when in fact Hamilton fans merely understand the reasoning whilst not necessarily supporting the swap.

I didn't reply in the Hamilton thread because I was told off by a mod to end the discussion. I did my part and other people didn't, which is why that thread is now temporarily locked.

A few things to set the record straight:

a) I don't believe all Hamilton fans are hypocrites - on this issue, which is the only issue I'm accusing them of being hypocritical on - and I made certain in my later posts to point that out. I will admit that I have no proof it's a majority, that's simply my feeling.
b) I have no issue with team orders when they're necessary and get the team something. As I said, my issue with this team order is that it is not necessary, and it was delivered in a duplicitous fashion. If the goal was actually to protect Hamilton's tyres, they would have let Bottas win after the threat from Vettel was gone.

I have spent the last decade listening to predominantly Hamilton supporters talk Vettel and Alonso down for relying on team orders, saying that Hamilton doesn't need #1 status, he doesn't need team orders, etc. After the race, I was interested to see if the majority seemed to be defending this use of team orders, or if they would object to them. What I've seen is a handful of Hamilton fans sticking to their guns and denouncing the team orders (as you would expect from their past statements) and the majority (to my impression) scrambling instead to justify them. That is what stood out to me as hypocritical, and what I called as such.

I remember the 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix. In that race, Hamilton was ordered to let Rosberg through for the sake of the team result. He refused the order, and was applauded by many (if not most, as I can't say that for certain) of his fans. That order was about protecting a result - a win - for the team. This order was about protecting a result for the team, but because it also favors Hamilton, his fans appear to be in favor of it. That's how I read the situation, and to me that's a double standard. When Hamilton didn't get team orders, it was something to attack his rivals with. Now that he does, team orders are fine as long as they're justifiable by criteria that just happen to fit here.

Earlier in this very season, Ferrari got slammed for ordering Kimi out of the way in Germany, something that made obvious sense to do. They were ridiculed before the race even began for the perceived tactics they would use to get Vettel ahead of Kimi at Monza. Those were apparently bad team orders. What makes this a good one? The need to protect a huge championship lead with the best or equal-best car? No, simply the fact that it happens to favor the right driver.

So, in summary: I don't believe that all Hamilton fans are hypocrites. But any Hamilton fan who supports the team order in Sochi and previously attacked Vettel, Alonso - or anyone else - for benefitting from team orders, is.

And we both know such people do exist.


You're whole premise is anecdotal. First "Hamilton fans" are not one entity - if a Hamilton fan likes team orders that doesn't automatically make them a hypocrite as you seem to think unless you can find evidence that their stance prior was opposite. This is something sandman touched on in that if you label a broad group you will always be wrong. Here's an example for you, if Hamilton fan 1 doesn't like team orders and after the incident Hamilton fan 2 says he liked the swap then neither are hypocrites.

Now it's established that Hamilton fans aren't 1 being I can come to this Ferrari were attacked in Germany and Monza for employing team orders, actually quite the opposite, they were openly mocked for bad decision making for not employing team orders.

It is also not a very specific criteria "we" have set up for Hamilton to justify team orders is it? The criteria being that the team mate is out of the title challenge, this happens absolutely all the time and until now hasn't been made into a big deal - as I've already explained the difference here I can't be bothered to rehash this point. Again 40 points is in no way a huge lead not getting into this again, it's something else everyone else recognises except you

Nobody is scrambling to justify them - the justification is self explanatory to anyone rational including the entire F1 paddock according to Sawar and including vettel calling it a no brainer - if you choose not to recognise this that is your own prerogative. Most Hamilton fans have even said that they weren't happy to see him win in this fashion which you ignore because it doesn't suit your rhetoric, and I could go and quote many of those people if you want me to, yet haven't seen anything from this hidden majority you speak of - onus of proof is in you otherwise you're baselessly calling people hypocrites, which makes you a liar

Ive said my piece on this so won't revisit this I'm sure others can argue the point if you wish to continue as you obviously have an agenda you're trying hard to push and are now too deep into to back track now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:05 pm
Posts: 2617
Location: Finland
As a finn, I support Bottas, but I understand Merc's decision. I really don't get it how team orders are suddenly even a thing, as we've seen them since forever. Or is this a new generation talking who don't remember Vettel-Webber, Alonso-Massa or Schumi-Barrichello years? Seriously it's nothing new.

_________________
“I'm happy, but there's nothing to jump around about.”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6205
Location: Michigan, USA
FormulaFun wrote:
Ive said my piece on this so won't revisit this I'm sure others can argue the point if you wish to continue as you obviously have an agenda you're trying hard to push and are now too deep into to back track now.

I'm happy to drop it. It wasn't such a huge thing for me as you seem to think, and the last thing I want to do is to keep talking about it. I'm just defending myself at this point, and clearly I'm not going to change anyone's mind by clarifying my view.


One last thing, however:

FormulaFun wrote:
Again 40 points is in no way a huge lead not getting into this again, it's something else everyone else recognises except you.

Firstly, nice going with saying that 'everyone else' recognizes it after slamming me for using similar language. Very balanced approach.

But that aside, you're wrong - and if everyone else thinks so, they're wrong too. What you're missing is the context. The point lead cannot be taken in a vacuum, and in the real situation we have now the momentum is entirely with Hamilton. Vettel and Ferrari are doing everything in their power to throw this championship away. In all likelyhood, Hamilton will leave the Japanese Grand Prix with a 65 point or above lead. Literally the only thing that threatens a Hamilton WDC is a double mechanical DNF, and even that doesn't threaten it much - because he's still going to win the majority of the races in the season.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2148
Exediron wrote:
What you're missing is the context. The point lead cannot be taken in a vacuum, and in the real situation we have now the momentum is entirely with Hamilton. Vettel and Ferrari are doing everything in their power to throw this championship away. In all likelyhood, Hamilton will leave the Japanese Grand Prix with a 65 point or above lead. Literally the only thing that threatens a Hamilton WDC is a double mechanical DNF, and even that doesn't threaten it much - because he's still going to win the majority of the races in the season.


Japan isn't in the context of a decision made in Russia. 2 races prior to Russia, Ferrari had the clear advantage and at 40 points - 37 of vettel overtakes Hamilton in Russia - then 1 Hamilton dnf paired with a vettel win puts the gap at 12 pts with 5 races remaining, thrown in with if the DNF was engine related a potential start from the pitlane for Hamilton


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6205
Location: Michigan, USA
FormulaFun wrote:
Exediron wrote:
What you're missing is the context. The point lead cannot be taken in a vacuum, and in the real situation we have now the momentum is entirely with Hamilton. Vettel and Ferrari are doing everything in their power to throw this championship away. In all likelyhood, Hamilton will leave the Japanese Grand Prix with a 65 point or above lead. Literally the only thing that threatens a Hamilton WDC is a double mechanical DNF, and even that doesn't threaten it much - because he's still going to win the majority of the races in the season.

Japan isn't in the context of a decision made in Russia. 2 races prior to Russia, Ferrari had the clear advantage and at 40 points - 37 of vettel overtakes Hamilton in Russia - then 1 Hamilton dnf paired with a vettel win puts the gap at 12 pts with 5 races remaining, thrown in with if the DNF was engine related a potential start from the pitlane for Hamilton

Why does two races ago matter any more than this one? Mercedes was talking about a turnaround they made after Belgium. They know the car is quicker than it was two races ago, you're just ignoring that.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2148
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Exediron wrote:
What you're missing is the context. The point lead cannot be taken in a vacuum, and in the real situation we have now the momentum is entirely with Hamilton. Vettel and Ferrari are doing everything in their power to throw this championship away. In all likelyhood, Hamilton will leave the Japanese Grand Prix with a 65 point or above lead. Literally the only thing that threatens a Hamilton WDC is a double mechanical DNF, and even that doesn't threaten it much - because he's still going to win the majority of the races in the season.

Japan isn't in the context of a decision made in Russia. 2 races prior to Russia, Ferrari had the clear advantage and at 40 points - 37 of vettel overtakes Hamilton in Russia - then 1 Hamilton dnf paired with a vettel win puts the gap at 12 pts with 5 races remaining, thrown in with if the DNF was engine related a potential start from the pitlane for Hamilton

Why does two races ago matter any more than this one? Mercedes was talking about a turnaround they made after Belgium. They know the car is quicker than it was two races ago, you're just ignoring that.


What do you mean why does it matter more? Because how in Russia can they be sure what is gonna happen a week later in Japan without the use of a time machine? I'm not ignoring that the Merc have made some improvements, but as Hamilton has said, the improvements are not from any parts but from something in the setup which obviously translates differently at each track. Ferrari weren't that far behind on race pace in Russia, never falling behind by more than 3 seconds and undercutting Hamilton on merit. Ferrari have had the pace advtange between the British gp and probably Singapore when Merc found this setup change - Ferrari/Vettels fatal error and what they have been criticized for widely has been that they have squandered this advantage through various mistakes and lack of ruthlessness regarding team orders in Germany and Monza etc. So it is strange to then criticise Merc for showing those traits and ensuring they maximise their advantage because you can't see in to the future.

There is no benefit to Merc to let bottas win the race and this is a competitive sport not a friendly everybody wins competition. Comebacks from greater than 37-43 points have occurred before, near enough within this decade. I don't know you as a person but I would hazard a guess you aren't competitive or haven't participated in any competitive sport because in no sport do you say 'oh well we are winning by enough let's stop trying now"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:21 am
Posts: 3525
We're a weekend past this now guys. Not to mention a lot of discussion hasn't been about Russia.

_________________
AlienTurnedHuman wrote:
Eurytus probably thought he was God. At least until he was banned. Which means if he was God, it makes me very scared of PF1-Mod.

Please report forum problems to us, via PM/Feedback Thread. Screenshots will also help.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group