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Who is the best $ for $
Mercedes 13%  13%  [ 4 ]
Ferrari 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Red Bull 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
McLaren 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Renault 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Sauber 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Williams 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Toro Rosso 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Haas 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Force India 50%  50%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 32
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 Post subject: Pound for Pound Champion
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Okay guys, here's a fun thread topic. Below I've listed the approximate budgets of all 10 F1 teams for 2018. I want to have a vote to see who has done the best job on a pound for pound basis (meaning: who has gotten the most bang for their buck). Also please explain your thinking on this.

Mercedes Approx. €450 million
Ferrari Approx. €430 million
Red Bull Approx. €350 million
McLaren Approx. €250 million
Renault Approx. €200 million
Sauber Approx. €135 million
Williams Approx. €135 million
Toro Rosso Approx. €125 million
Haas Approx. €110 million
Force India Approx. €110 million


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:36 pm 
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For me, it's kind of a toss-up between Haas and Force India. Both teams have performed better than anyone else with a sub-200 million budget.

Worst pound for pound has to go to McLaren IMO. They are inferior to teams with less than half their budget!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:38 pm 
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The budget doesn't include F1 payback or driver salaries or bonuses i assume, otherwise I believe Merc spends much more and recieves less.

IMO Ferrari, they are most connected to racing of all car makers IMO.
Without Ferrari F1 is nothing, without racing Ferrari is nothing I believe.

Hard to see any off the others making a buck for the bang at all.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Objectively Mercedes but Haas is most impressive IMO.

Code:
   |  Team        |    € per point  |
1  |  Mercedes    |      €0.996m    |
2  |  Ferrari     |      €1.036m    |
3  |  Red Bull    |      €1.277m    |
4  |  Haas        |      €1.447m    |
5  |  Renault     |      €2.198m    |
6  |  Force India |      €3.438m    |
7  |  Toro Rosso  |      €4.167m    |
8  |  McLaren     |      €4.310m    |
9  |  Sauber      |      €6.429m    |
10 |  Williams    |      €19.286m   |


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Code:
   |  Team        |    € per point  |
1  |  Mercedes    |      €0.996m    |
2  |  Ferrari     |      €1.036m    |
3  |  Red Bull    |      €1.277m    |
4  |  Haas        |      €1.447m    |
5  |  Renault     |      €2.198m    |
6  |  Force India |      €3.438m    |
7  |  Toro Rosso  |      €4.167m    |
8  |  McLaren     |      €4.310m    |
9  |  Sauber      |      €6.429m    |
10 |  Williams    |      €19.286m   |


Isn't the FI figure skewed a bit as they have been stripped of a lot of points this season? They were stripped 59 points I think, plus the 32 they have now would make the actual figure for them for the season around £1.21m per point. Oh and I voted FI.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Code:
   |  Team        |    € per point  |
1  |  Mercedes    |      €0.996m    |
2  |  Ferrari     |      €1.036m    |
3  |  Red Bull    |      €1.277m    |
4  |  Haas        |      €1.447m    |
5  |  Renault     |      €2.198m    |
6  |  Force India |      €3.438m    |
7  |  Toro Rosso  |      €4.167m    |
8  |  McLaren     |      €4.310m    |
9  |  Sauber      |      €6.429m    |
10 |  Williams    |      €19.286m   |


Isn't the FI figure skewed a bit as they have been stripped of a lot of points this season? They were stripped 59 points I think, plus the 32 they have now would make the actual figure for them for the season around £1.21m per point. Oh and I voted FI.

Good point. Updated below, that in mind I agree their's is probably most impressive.

Code:
   |  Team        |    € per point  |
1  |  Mercedes    |      €0.996m    |
2  |  Ferrari     |      €1.036m    |
3  |  Force India |      €1.209m    |
4  |  Red Bull    |      €1.277m    |
5  |  Haas        |      €1.447m    |
6  |  Renault     |      €2.198m    |
7  |  Toro Rosso  |      €4.167m    |
8  |  McLaren     |      €4.310m    |
9  |  Sauber      |      €6.429m    |
10 |  Williams    |      €19.286m   |


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:57 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Okay guys, here's a fun thread topic. Below I've listed the approximate budgets of all 10 F1 teams for 2018. I want to have a vote to see who has done the best job on a pound for pound basis (meaning: who has gotten the most bang for their buck). Also please explain your thinking on this.

Mercedes Approx. €450 million
Ferrari Approx. €430 million
Red Bull Approx. €350 million
McLaren Approx. €250 million
Renault Approx. €200 million
Sauber Approx. €135 million
Williams Approx. €135 million
Toro Rosso Approx. €125 million
Haas Approx. €110 million
Force India Approx. €110 million


I'm intrigued where you've got these numbers from. At the end of last year, Autosport posted a series of images on their Twitter feed detailing the budgets and staff numbers of each teams for 2017. They had the following numbers:

Mercedes £290m (excluding their engine department)
Ferrari £350m (including their engine department)
Red Bull £215m
McLaren £175m
Renault £150m (not specified if it included their engine department or not)
Sauber £105m
Williams £120m
Toro Rosso £110m
Haas £100m
Force India £97m

I'm not disputing the numbers posted, btw. Just interested where they've come from as there are some quite big differences, for instance I doubt Red Bull have sunk an extra 100m euros into their team this year.

As for the answer to the question posed in the thread, I would say that even with Haas' performance improvement, I think Force India remain the better 'pound-for-pound' performer, just because they're not as closely associated with Mercedes as Haas are with Ferrari. Worst is unquestionably McLaren, and has been for a few years now.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Okay guys, here's a fun thread topic. Below I've listed the approximate budgets of all 10 F1 teams for 2018. I want to have a vote to see who has done the best job on a pound for pound basis (meaning: who has gotten the most bang for their buck). Also please explain your thinking on this.

Mercedes Approx. €450 million
Ferrari Approx. €430 million
Red Bull Approx. €350 million
McLaren Approx. €250 million
Renault Approx. €200 million
Sauber Approx. €135 million
Williams Approx. €135 million
Toro Rosso Approx. €125 million
Haas Approx. €110 million
Force India Approx. €110 million


I'm intrigued where you've got these numbers from. At the end of last year, Autosport posted a series of images on their Twitter feed detailing the budgets and staff numbers of each teams for 2017. They had the following numbers:

Mercedes £290m (excluding their engine department)
Ferrari £350m (including their engine department)
Red Bull £215m
McLaren £175m
Renault £150m (not specified if it included their engine department or not)
Sauber £105m
Williams £120m
Toro Rosso £110m
Haas £100m
Force India £97m

I'm not disputing the numbers posted, btw. Just interested where they've come from as there are some quite big differences, for instance I doubt Red Bull have sunk an extra 100m euros into their team this year.

As for the answer to the question posed in the thread, I would say that even with Haas' performance improvement, I think Force India remain the better 'pound-for-pound' performer, just because they're not as closely associated with Mercedes as Haas are with Ferrari. Worst is unquestionably McLaren, and has been for a few years now.

http://scuderiafans.com/budgets-for-the ... auto-bild/
Auto Bild produced the numbers and they are for 2018 so that might help to explain the discrepancy from Autosport's numbers from 2017.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:35 am 
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Voted for Haas. I have heard their car is pretty much a 2017 spec Ferrari, but the car is still phenomenal for such a new outfit, and their drivers aren't the best either. The Force India is everyone's favorite and I can see why. They definitely always punch way above their weight, I easily could have voted for them, but to me the Haas car is more impressive, while FI's strength is the drivers. But I do wonder what FI or Haas could do with Mclaren's budget...
I also foresee Sauber improving even more next year and become a real force in the midfield. It will be interesting to see how Mclaren fares without Alonso. Sooner or later they need to make a good car you would think, as their budget is not too shabby.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:49 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Voted for Haas. I have heard their car is pretty much a 2017 spec Ferrari, but the car is still phenomenal for such a new outfit, and their drivers aren't the best either. The Force India is everyone's favorite and I can see why. They definitely always punch way above their weight, I easily could have voted for them, but to me the Haas car is more impressive, while FI's strength is the drivers. But I do wonder what FI or Haas could do with Mclaren's budget...
I also foresee Sauber improving even more next year and become a real force in the midfield. It will be interesting to see how Mclaren fares without Alonso. Sooner or later they need to make a good car you would think, as their budget is not too shabby.


Your question will be answered in 2019 when it comes to Force India as their financial capacity has increased much. With added funds, everything improves! To start with, a couple of weeks back there were multiple job openings at their Silverstone factory. Their workforce is efficient & with a limited budget they used to produce a good car. So when they have more funds at their disposal, the span of their creativity will only expand.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:43 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Voted for Haas. I have heard their car is pretty much a 2017 spec Ferrari, but the car is still phenomenal for such a new outfit, and their drivers aren't the best either.

With all due respect to my favorite driver - who is one of the ones saying that - you've heard BS. The suspension elements are certainly from a 2017 Ferrari, but the aero is not - and it shows. The car doesn't have the same strengths and weaknesses as a 2017 Ferrari, nor does it actually look any more the same than you'd expect for being designed around the same suspension components.

That view is put about by bitter teams and drivers who don't like the way Haas has exploited the rules. F1 is all about exploiting the rules.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:56 am 
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Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Voted for Haas. I have heard their car is pretty much a 2017 spec Ferrari, but the car is still phenomenal for such a new outfit, and their drivers aren't the best either.

With all due respect to my favorite driver - who is one of the ones saying that - you've heard BS. The suspension elements are certainly from a 2017 Ferrari, but the aero is not - and it shows. The car doesn't have the same strengths and weaknesses as a 2017 Ferrari, nor does it actually look any more the same than you'd expect for being designed around the same suspension components.

That view is put about by bitter teams and drivers who don't like the way Haas has exploited the rules. F1 is all about exploiting the rules.


You beat me to it. More than one has made it sound like Ferrari has handed a ready to run car to Hass... It is almost funny.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:20 pm 
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For me it depends on what you would call the fixed costs of being a Formula One team and what are the variable costs. Mercedes gets more points per million euros spent but if you figure that not all of that can be maximized because it is required spending.

Image
Source: https://image.ibb.co/my1BU9/Costperpoint.png

If you figure that 50 million Eu. are fixed costs, then Haas becomes most efficient at 0.79M per point followed by Merc at 0.88M per point. The most spendthrift teams are Williams, Toro Rosso, & McLaren in that order.

The points earned to discretionary spending is probably a more accurate metric of efficiency.

I voted Haas.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:10 am 
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In that budget. Does this account for the entry fee each team has too pay the fia each season.

The champion team (merc) have to pay a premium which I believe is €50,000 per point scored the previous season with the rest of the grid paying €25,000 per point scored the previous season.

A question to raise. What does racing point force India have too pay for next season. The payments included in the old force India which is 90 odd points. Or the 30 or so points they have scored to this point as the new team.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:47 pm 
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wire2004 wrote:
In that budget. Does this account for the entry fee each team has too pay the fia each season.

The champion team (merc) have to pay a premium which I believe is €50,000 per point scored the previous season with the rest of the grid paying €25,000 per point scored the previous season.

A question to raise. What does racing point force India have too pay for next season. The payments included in the old force India which is 90 odd points. Or the 30 or so points they have scored to this point as the new team.

You'd assume they have to pay the new points won and all points won by the non-racing-point Force India are all null and void now as the new team weren't able to keep them.

On that note, I also voted for Force India, but as a team throughout the season and ignoring the whole 2 team thing.

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