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Is there a clear winner between Hamilton and Vettel as drivers?
Hamilton is clearly better at this point. 81%  81%  [ 70 ]
Vettel is clearly better at this point. 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
It is still not clear who is the better driver at this point. 17%  17%  [ 15 ]
Total votes : 86
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:20 am 
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Form and confidence surely plays a huge part, and these two have had very different careers in F1. Vettel racked up 4 world titles fairly early in his career and was clearly comfortable at Red Bull and confident that he could beat Webber and you'd have to guess that would have made a big difference through those early years. Hamilton on the other hand drove 7 or so years with only one title and no doubt would have put a lot of pressure on himself to win more even if he didn't have the car to do it. Hamilton has always had the pace, right from his first season, and now we are seeing him drive with the confidence of having a few titles under his belt and the belief that his team are 100% behind him. That could change going forward but for now we may as well just enjoy it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:16 am 
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I expect the caliber of drivers Lewis and Vettel have been paired with has had some impact on the drivers they've turned out to be.

Lewis has gone up against, and sometimes lost to, Alonso, Button and Rosberg. All three on their day, especially the first two, can just be the best in the world in the right conditions.

Vettel has gone up against an ageing Webber, who initially was able to match him, a young Ricciardo and an ageing Raikkonen. Sure, he beat two of those, but I don't think either of them pushed him to the limits that Alonso, Button and Rosberg would have pushed Hamilton. The one time he did get beaten, he fled the team.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:27 am 
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I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:34 am 
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I don’t think Hamilton is too concerned about Vettel to be honest. Remember he went to Christian Horner seeking a seat next to Vettel. He must feel confident that he can beat him in a head to head. On the other hand I don’t see Vettel for example seeking to join Mercedes next to Hamilton. He seems extremely adverse to competition, judging by the way he has campaigned for years to have Ferrari retain Kimi. And to tell you the truth, it maybe a bit controversial to some but I think Rosberg in that Ferrari of 2017 and 2018 would put up a much better fight than what Vettel is currently producing.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:14 am 
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It’s rumoured that Vettel signed a pre-contract with Mercedes for 2018 after Rosberg retired, but he extended with Ferrari instead after they produced a surprisingly good car in 2017.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:31 am 
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For me, I think this season has confirmed that Lewis has the upper hand between the ears. I fee they are both close in terms of speed, but Hamilton is mentally stronger.

I’ve always thought Sebs weakness was the mental side of the sport, dating back to when he was at TR, and he collided with Webber at Fuji under the safety car. I feel he’s a flat track bully. He needs everything to be perfect, and to go his way, for him to get the results.

Did Hamilton and Vettel cross paths in the lower formulas? I’m curious to know how they stacked up


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:48 am 
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Vettel has either thrown away or lost 63 points this season.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:01 am 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
For me, I think this season has confirmed that Lewis has the upper hand between the ears. I fee they are both close in terms of speed, but Hamilton is mentally stronger.

I’ve always thought Sebs weakness was the mental side of the sport, dating back to when he was at TR, and he collided with Webber at Fuji under the safety car. I feel he’s a flat track bully. He needs everything to be perfect, and to go his way, for him to get the results.

Did Hamilton and Vettel cross paths in the lower formulas? I’m curious to know how they stacked up


They both raced the 2005 Formula 3 Euroseries.
Hamilton won the championship and Seb was 5th.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:05 am 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
Did Hamilton and Vettel cross paths in the lower formulas? I’m curious to know how they stacked up


They did indeed.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:50 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
It’s rumoured that Vettel signed a pre-contract with Mercedes for 2018 after Rosberg retired, but he extended with Ferrari instead after they produced a surprisingly good car in 2017.

That’ extremely unlikely. Rosberg had just signed a 2 year contract for 2017 and 2018 the year he retired and the rumours only started because Toto attended a fictiona with Vettel and journalists thought it was suspicious.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:00 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry.


Correction:

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in the championship with the least amount of mistakes made by him and his team when compared to Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari. And this is the 2nd year running with Vettel Vs Lewis. This year and last year are good judgments on their rivalry.

These teams and drivers are so close that a single mistake can cost a few places. Ferrari and Vettel need to get their heads straight or they will lose this year. Heads will roll if they fail for the 2nd year.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:42 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry.


Correction:

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in the championship with the least amount of mistakes made by him and his team when compared to Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari. And this is the 2nd year running with Vettel Vs Lewis. This year and last year are good judgments on their rivalry.

These teams and drivers are so close that a single mistake can cost a few places. Ferrari and Vettel need to get their heads straight or they will lose this year. Heads will roll if they fail for the 2nd year.


Drivers or management, they have only just undergone a revamp have they not?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:06 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.

I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:46 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.

I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing

At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:16 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.

I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing

At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.


Alonso's currently 8th in the WDC with a car that at absolute best should have him in 13th-14th. He's still prooving why he's the best.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:35 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.

I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing

At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.


Alonso's currently 8th in the WDC with a car that at absolute best should have him in 13th-14th. He's still prooving why he's the best.

All he's proving is that he's better than the guys in the middle of the pack. Alonso hasn't been racing against the big boys for years.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:38 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.

I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing

At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.

Yes, Hamilton's performance against Alonso when they were together is definitely a point in Hamilton's favour. But I don't agree that Alonso's exploits have been any worse. You need the equipment to make and sustain a challenge and in that respect Hamilton has enjoyed far more competitive machinery than Alonso has. I can see an argument for either tbh but in things like this there will always be a degree of subjectivity. The way Alonso has utterly trounced his team mates and made them look as though they were driving an inferior car to him has to count for something IMO. As mikeyg123 has said, he's currently in a position in the WDC that he really shouldn't be and that's not down to a single fluke result, either. He's made 7th/8th virtually his default finishing position.

That's not to say that Hamilton also hasn't performed admirably. But given their relative equipment levels I think Alonso can hold his head high with what he has achieved.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:43 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.

I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing

At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.


Alonso's currently 8th in the WDC with a car that at absolute best should have him in 13th-14th. He's still prooving why he's the best.

All he's proving is that he's better than the guys in the middle of the pack. Alonso hasn't been racing against the big boys for years.

Neither has Hamilton, to be fair. This is the first time in years that Hamilton is not operating with a car advantage, and between 2014-2016 the only opposition he faced was his team mate. This year he's only really facing Vettel, which is as tough a challenge as you're likely to get but Alonso is definitely proving himself the top of the division he's been driving around in


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:45 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.

I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing

At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.


Alonso's currently 8th in the WDC with a car that at absolute best should have him in 13th-14th. He's still prooving why he's the best.

All he's proving is that he's better than the guys in the middle of the pack. Alonso hasn't been racing against the big boys for years.


Hamilton is racing a big boy. Just the one.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:46 am 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.


Alonso's currently 8th in the WDC with a car that at absolute best should have him in 13th-14th. He's still prooving why he's the best.

All he's proving is that he's better than the guys in the middle of the pack. Alonso hasn't been racing against the big boys for years.

Neither has Hamilton, to be fair. This is the first time in years that Hamilton is not operating with a car advantage, and between 2014-2016 the only opposition he faced was his team mate. This year he's only really facing Vettel, which is as tough a challenge as you're likely to get but Alonso is definitely proving himself the top of the division he's been driving around in

Hamilton in the last 2 years has raced for the championship against a 4 time WDC driving for the most successful team in F1 history and he has delivered 1 championship and is looking pretty strong to make it 2/2. Are we really supposed to weigh that evenly with Alonso besting the likes of Vandoorne and Gasly?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:52 am 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.

I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing

At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.

Yes, Hamilton's performance against Alonso when they were together is definitely a point in Hamilton's favour. But I don't agree that Alonso's exploits have been any worse. You need the equipment to make and sustain a challenge and in that respect Hamilton has enjoyed far more competitive machinery than Alonso has. I can see an argument for either tbh but in things like this there will always be a degree of subjectivity. The way Alonso has utterly trounced his team mates and made them look as though they were driving an inferior car to him has to count for something IMO. As mikeyg123 has said, he's currently in a position in the WDC that he really shouldn't be and that's not down to a single fluke result, either. He's made 7th/8th virtually his default finishing position.

That's not to say that Hamilton also hasn't performed admirably. But given their relative equipment levels I think Alonso can hold his head high with what he has achieved.

Ultimately Alonso has always insisted upon and secured #1 status within the teams has he raced for. The only times in the last 15 years where he hasn't had it were against Button (who actually beat him one out of two years), Hamilton (who beat him) and Truli ( who was sacked by Flavio while beating him in the points). Saying that he trounces his teammates while ignoring the internal politics is a bit disingenuous. He's usually not actually racing them at all.

I agree that Alonso has done all that you can ask for these last few years in less than impressive machinery but when has being impressive in the midfield ever carried more weight than delivering titles up front? Alonso is driving without pressure and without scrutiny. I can't weigh his performances the same as Hamilton's.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:54 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing

At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.


Alonso's currently 8th in the WDC with a car that at absolute best should have him in 13th-14th. He's still prooving why he's the best.

All he's proving is that he's better than the guys in the middle of the pack. Alonso hasn't been racing against the big boys for years.


Hamilton is racing a big boy. Just the one.

1 > 0 and Max and Dan are often involved too. It also happens to be the same big boy that Alonso never managed to get the better of...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:56 am 
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Stupid me... Last two races, I've gone against my instincts and picked Vettel to win in GP Predictor. Not any more...

The Mercedes is proving more consistent, while the Ferrari -- although arguably the faster car -- also seems to me more finicky with it's tires, regardless of the team's fumbling around with tire choices. Somewhat of a role reversal from last year, when the Mercedes seemed more tire sensitive. There's no reason why Kimi should have burned down his tires defending at Monza.

As for the drivers... well, see my 1st sentence...

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:58 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.


Alonso's currently 8th in the WDC with a car that at absolute best should have him in 13th-14th. He's still prooving why he's the best.

All he's proving is that he's better than the guys in the middle of the pack. Alonso hasn't been racing against the big boys for years.

Neither has Hamilton, to be fair. This is the first time in years that Hamilton is not operating with a car advantage, and between 2014-2016 the only opposition he faced was his team mate. This year he's only really facing Vettel, which is as tough a challenge as you're likely to get but Alonso is definitely proving himself the top of the division he's been driving around in

Hamilton in the last 2 years has raced for the championship against a 4 time WDC driving for the most successful team in F1 history and he has delivered 1 championship and is looking pretty strong to make it 2/2. Are we really supposed to weigh that evenly with Alonso besting the likes of Vandoorne and Gasly?

Sure, because we are not just talking about the last couple of years. Alonso has dominated his team mate wherever he has been and has beaten others driving better cars than he has. What more can he do? Hamilton has also given some impressive performances but even just taking the last race Alonso beat his team mate by 8 tenths of a second (where for McLaren every session is Q3) and everyone has been waxing lyrical about Lewis beating his by less. So how can we say from that that Hamilton is definitely performing better?

The above is just for illustrative purposes, btw, and not intended to disparage Hamilton's performances in any way. But given that Alonso is never going to fight for pole in the car he has, his performances are still pretty standout and shouldn't be dismissed simply because he's not in the glamorous seats


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Alonso, Alonso, Alonso... Enough already. Put a fork in him, he's done in F1. x(

Can't wait to see how his ego plays out in Indycar. :smug:

Remember, the topic of this discussion is Hamilton vs Vettel...

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:08 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.

I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing

At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.

Yes, Hamilton's performance against Alonso when they were together is definitely a point in Hamilton's favour. But I don't agree that Alonso's exploits have been any worse. You need the equipment to make and sustain a challenge and in that respect Hamilton has enjoyed far more competitive machinery than Alonso has. I can see an argument for either tbh but in things like this there will always be a degree of subjectivity. The way Alonso has utterly trounced his team mates and made them look as though they were driving an inferior car to him has to count for something IMO. As mikeyg123 has said, he's currently in a position in the WDC that he really shouldn't be and that's not down to a single fluke result, either. He's made 7th/8th virtually his default finishing position.

That's not to say that Hamilton also hasn't performed admirably. But given their relative equipment levels I think Alonso can hold his head high with what he has achieved.

Ultimately Alonso has always insisted upon and secured #1 status within the teams has he raced for. The only times in the last 15 years where he hasn't had it were against Button (who actually beat him one out of two years), Hamilton (who beat him) and Truli ( who was sacked by Flavio while beating him in the points). Saying that he trounces his teammates while ignoring the internal politics is a bit disingenuous. He's usually not actually racing them at all.

I agree that Alonso has done all that you can ask for these last few years in less than impressive machinery but when has being impressive in the midfield ever carried more weight than delivering titles up front? Alonso is driving without pressure and without scrutiny. I can't weigh his performances the same as Hamilton's.

I think we should be able to keep this discussion civilized without resorting to throwing around terms like disingenuous, don't you? It's been fairly good up to now.

Alonso has #1 largely because he has earned it, in much the same way that both Vettel and Hamilton are clearly the #1s in their teams. I don't think him trouncing Vandoorne in qualifying has anything to do with his internal status.

We could go back and forth with examples all day. If we were discussing who has achieved more then clearly we need look no further than the results, but when talking about who is the better driver then IMO it's unfair to exclude others simply because they haven't been fortunate enough to be driving the best cars. I respect your view that Hamilton is better, but I don't agree you can dismiss others' opinions on what is after all a largely subjective topic just because they don't tie in with your own.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:09 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
It’s rumoured that Vettel signed a pre-contract with Mercedes for 2018 after Rosberg retired, but he extended with Ferrari instead after they produced a surprisingly good car in 2017.

I believe the rumour was for 2019 when Hamilton was out of contract with Mercedes and that Vettel was looking to try and sign a 1 year contract with Ferrari for 2018, but like you say the Ferrari came good and that got put to bed, he didn't want to join Mercedes alongside Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:11 pm 
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bonecrasher wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
It’s rumoured that Vettel signed a pre-contract with Mercedes for 2018 after Rosberg retired, but he extended with Ferrari instead after they produced a surprisingly good car in 2017.

That’ extremely unlikely. Rosberg had just signed a 2 year contract for 2017 and 2018 the year he retired and the rumours only started because Toto attended a fictiona with Vettel and journalists thought it was suspicious.

It was for 2019 and Hamilton himself mentioned something about Vettel approaching Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Hamilton in the last 2 years has raced for the championship against a 4 time WDC driving for the most successful team in F1 history and he has delivered 1 championship and is looking pretty strong to make it 2/2. Are we really supposed to weigh that evenly with Alonso besting the likes of Vandoorne and Gasly?

Sure, because we are not just talking about the last couple of years. Alonso has dominated his team mate wherever he has been and has beaten others driving better cars than he has. What more can he do? Hamilton has also given some impressive performances but even just taking the last race Alonso beat his team mate by 8 tenths of a second (where for McLaren every session is Q3) and everyone has been waxing lyrical about Lewis beating his by less. So how can we say from that that Hamilton is definitely performing better?

The above is just for illustrative purposes, btw, and not intended to disparage Hamilton's performances in any way. But given that Alonso is never going to fight for pole in the car he has, his performances are still pretty standout and shouldn't be dismissed simply because he's not in the glamorous seats

I agree with you on that. I don't take anything away from Alonso and I think he is still performing to an extremely high level but he's swimming in the kiddie pool right now.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.

Yes, Hamilton's performance against Alonso when they were together is definitely a point in Hamilton's favour. But I don't agree that Alonso's exploits have been any worse. You need the equipment to make and sustain a challenge and in that respect Hamilton has enjoyed far more competitive machinery than Alonso has. I can see an argument for either tbh but in things like this there will always be a degree of subjectivity. The way Alonso has utterly trounced his team mates and made them look as though they were driving an inferior car to him has to count for something IMO. As mikeyg123 has said, he's currently in a position in the WDC that he really shouldn't be and that's not down to a single fluke result, either. He's made 7th/8th virtually his default finishing position.

That's not to say that Hamilton also hasn't performed admirably. But given their relative equipment levels I think Alonso can hold his head high with what he has achieved.

Ultimately Alonso has always insisted upon and secured #1 status within the teams has he raced for. The only times in the last 15 years where he hasn't had it were against Button (who actually beat him one out of two years), Hamilton (who beat him) and Truli ( who was sacked by Flavio while beating him in the points). Saying that he trounces his teammates while ignoring the internal politics is a bit disingenuous. He's usually not actually racing them at all.

I agree that Alonso has done all that you can ask for these last few years in less than impressive machinery but when has being impressive in the midfield ever carried more weight than delivering titles up front? Alonso is driving without pressure and without scrutiny. I can't weigh his performances the same as Hamilton's.

I think we should be able to keep this discussion civilized without resorting to throwing around terms like disingenuous, don't you? It's been fairly good up to now.

Alonso has #1 largely because he has earned it, in much the same way that both Vettel and Hamilton are clearly the #1s in their teams. I don't think him trouncing Vandoorne in qualifying has anything to do with his internal status.

We could go back and forth with examples all day. If we were discussing who has achieved more then clearly we need look no further than the results, but when talking about who is the better driver then IMO it's unfair to exclude others simply because they haven't been fortunate enough to be driving the best cars. I respect your view that Hamilton is better, but I don't agree you can dismiss others' opinions on what is after all a largely subjective topic just because they don't tie in with your own.

No personal attack intended and I agree that we can be 100% civil. I just think that, generally speaking, doing well in the midfield carries the weight of suggesting that a driver can deliver titles up front. This can often earn them a seat up front and then you can see how they stack up to the big boys. Ultimately though, we already know that Alonso is capable of delivering titles so actually doing it is the one thing that can still enhance Alonso's legacy. Due mostly to McLaren's ineptness, he is simply not in a position to do that.

In 2009 Hamilton had a car that was literally a backmarker for half of the year and then maybe 3rd-4th best in the second half and he still finished 5th in the points. Both of them can deliver without having the best car and, while that's certainly impressive, it's not as important as winning championships when the opportunity is there. The degree of difficulty is much higher as is the required level of consistency and, above all else, the immense pressure.

In no way am I trying to take anything away from Alonso. I just think that you have to give credit to Lewis for actually doing what he's doing. If Lewis were to be relegated to a midfield car and dominate the guys in that group it honestly wouldn't change the way I perceive him at all. That's what I would expect to see and it's also what I expect from Alonso.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:34 pm 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
For me, I think this season has confirmed that Lewis has the upper hand between the ears. I fee they are both close in terms of speed, but Hamilton is mentally stronger.

I’ve always thought Sebs weakness was the mental side of the sport, dating back to when he was at TR, and he collided with Webber at Fuji under the safety car. I feel he’s a flat track bully. He needs everything to be perfect, and to go his way, for him to get the results.

Did Hamilton and Vettel cross paths in the lower formulas? I’m curious to know how they stacked up


I agree that Hamiltons seems stronger mentally, but I don't think that you can measure the mental side by an incident like Fuji. Hamilton collided with Kimi in the Pit Lane in Canada, that doesn't make him weak, just an unfortunate moment.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.

I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing

At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.

Yes, Hamilton's performance against Alonso when they were together is definitely a point in Hamilton's favour. But I don't agree that Alonso's exploits have been any worse. You need the equipment to make and sustain a challenge and in that respect Hamilton has enjoyed far more competitive machinery than Alonso has. I can see an argument for either tbh but in things like this there will always be a degree of subjectivity. The way Alonso has utterly trounced his team mates and made them look as though they were driving an inferior car to him has to count for something IMO. As mikeyg123 has said, he's currently in a position in the WDC that he really shouldn't be and that's not down to a single fluke result, either. He's made 7th/8th virtually his default finishing position.

That's not to say that Hamilton also hasn't performed admirably. But given their relative equipment levels I think Alonso can hold his head high with what he has achieved.

I think it's no coincidence the only teammate he couldn't trounce recently is one of Hamilton's ex teammates that being Button, and there lies the level of relative teammates that Alonso has had, Massa who got beat by Bottas, Kimi who was no quicker than Massa, then a few rookies.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think both Lewis and Seb have put in careers that will place them in the list of the all time greats of the sport, and with good reason. Both have four WDC to their name. Lewis has 68 career wins to Sebastian's 52. That places them second and third of all time.

Lewis currently seems to have the edge in public opinion as to the best of this generation. Both are signed to top teams through 2020. IMHO the next two years will be decisive as to how history judges this rivalry. Right now it seems Sebastian will be known as the guy who was good enough to challenge Lewis consistently. Vettel will need to step up his game to keep his standing next to Hamilton.

I think that depends on whether you include Alonso in his generation or not, tbh. Quite a few would consider that accolade for Alonso.

I think Ferrari have let Vettel down somewhat this year, tbh. This last race was a complete mess strategy-wise, for example, and they threw away 2nd place unnecessarily. And Vettel has made a few errors, mainly small ones but unfortunately they have had big consequences. It seems they couldn't switch the tyres on properly for qualifying but it at least raises the question as to whether that's a fundamental problem with the car or whether the driver needs to shoulder some of the blame. That's two occasions now that Hamilton has managed to really switch on the tyres to make a difference - Australia and Singapore - and he deserves at least some of the credit for that. I do think that overall Vettel had the better first half of the year but the last few races have been grim viewing for Ferrari/Vettel fans, while Hamilton has seemingly found another gear. As mikeyg123 said, memories tend to be fickle in F1 and all it needs is for the pendulum to swing the other way for a couple of races and people will be marveling at what an amazing job Vettel is doing

At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.

Yes, Hamilton's performance against Alonso when they were together is definitely a point in Hamilton's favour. But I don't agree that Alonso's exploits have been any worse. You need the equipment to make and sustain a challenge and in that respect Hamilton has enjoyed far more competitive machinery than Alonso has. I can see an argument for either tbh but in things like this there will always be a degree of subjectivity. The way Alonso has utterly trounced his team mates and made them look as though they were driving an inferior car to him has to count for something IMO. As mikeyg123 has said, he's currently in a position in the WDC that he really shouldn't be and that's not down to a single fluke result, either. He's made 7th/8th virtually his default finishing position.

That's not to say that Hamilton also hasn't performed admirably. But given their relative equipment levels I think Alonso can hold his head high with what he has achieved.

I think it's no coincidence the only teammate he couldn't trounce recently is one of Hamilton's ex teammates that being Button, and there lies the level of relative teammates that Alonso has had, Massa who got beat by Bottas, Kimi who was no quicker than Massa, then a few rookies.


That team mate also outscored Hamilton over one season and if I'm not mistaken, he outscored Hamilton overall in the three year period they were at Macca together (just Googled it, 672 for Button vs 657 for Hamilton). It is not a performance indication of course, but you can't say that Button beat Alonso over one year and disregard that he did the same to Hamilton... Unless I completely misunderstood your post!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Its never conclusive until you see a direct head to head or a lot of team mates to compare. But it has certainly moved a lot toward Hamilton since the end of 2013 when consensus probably had Vettel slightly ahead. Especially with Hamiltons 2011 still in close memory.

I think by the end of there careers we will have a very good idea, especially how Vettel compares against Leclerc and maybe see Hamilton against one more driver too.

Vettel isn't as bad as is being made out since Germany, he is still Ferrari best hope (Alonso aside) to break the Hamilton-Mercedes team and its still possible this year.

One thing with Vettel is he is inconsistent over seasons and it alternates (although that is probably by luck) every other year.
2009 he thrashed Webber.
2010 for a decent chunk of the year Webber was better / his equal.
2011 he thrashes Webber.
2012 for the first half of the year Webber was better at quite a few races and actually ahead of him midway through the WDC.
2013 he thrashes Webber.
2014 bad year against Ricciardo.
2015 thrashes Kimi very heavily
2016 Kimi matches him in qualifying and much closer overall
2017 thrashes Kimi again
2018 the gap is much reduced and if Kimi wasn't making errors in qualifying it would be quite a close battle.

I don't believe in these types of patterns, its just the way its worked out. But he seems to be better if the car really suits him which just happens to be all the odd years.


There was a few reasons why Webber was better matched in some years.
2010 was the last of the old tyres you could push every lap.
2011- Pirelli was introduced and Webber was never as good or consistent again. (He hated the cheese tyres)
2012 - Vettel didn’t like the car. Webber had the upper hand initially. The Red Bull via Adrian Newey took the design and development in the direction to suit Vettel = blown diffuser etc. By mid way Vettel was comfortable in the car again.
2013 - Webber had announced his retirement. He was 37 (I think at the time) so past it both physically and had already checked out mentally after multi 21.

What makes me think Vettel is not a top driver despite his record is 2014 when he lost out to Ricciardo.
I think LeClerc will easily beat him too.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
and if I'm not mistaken, he outscored Hamilton overall in the three year period they were at Macca together (just Googled it, 672 for Button vs 657 for Hamilton).


This is my go to stat when I want to argue that stats without context are often worthless.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
and if I'm not mistaken, he outscored Hamilton overall in the three year period they were at Macca together (just Googled it, 672 for Button vs 657 for Hamilton).


This is my go to stat when I want to argue that stats without context are often worthless.


Yup, same pattern that happened with Alonso and Button (Button outscored Alonso in one season, was outscored over their tenure together), however it was presented as an argument above. Sounds like double standard, as worthless as these comparisons are


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
At this point I think the Alonso vote has to be taken to task. Without doubt he's a great driver but to place him above Hamilton at this stage is to put undo weight on a couple of spirited underdog title challenges that fell a bit short. I don't think that his exploits are a match for Hamilton's and their brief time as teammates is another point in Hamilton's favor.


Alonso's currently 8th in the WDC with a car that at absolute best should have him in 13th-14th. He's still prooving why he's the best.

All he's proving is that he's better than the guys in the middle of the pack. Alonso hasn't been racing against the big boys for years.

Neither has Hamilton, to be fair. This is the first time in years that Hamilton is not operating with a car advantage, and between 2014-2016 the only opposition he faced was his team mate. This year he's only really facing Vettel, which is as tough a challenge as you're likely to get but Alonso is definitely proving himself the top of the division he's been driving around in

This year is the first time in years?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:24 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
and if I'm not mistaken, he outscored Hamilton overall in the three year period they were at Macca together (just Googled it, 672 for Button vs 657 for Hamilton).


This is my go to stat when I want to argue that stats without context are often worthless.


Yup, same pattern that happened with Alonso and Button (Button outscored Alonso in one season, was outscored over their tenure together), however it was presented as an argument above. Sounds like double standard, as worthless as these comparisons are

I think you actually completely missed the point that poker was making there


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:24 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Alonso's currently 8th in the WDC with a car that at absolute best should have him in 13th-14th. He's still prooving why he's the best.

All he's proving is that he's better than the guys in the middle of the pack. Alonso hasn't been racing against the big boys for years.

Neither has Hamilton, to be fair. This is the first time in years that Hamilton is not operating with a car advantage, and between 2014-2016 the only opposition he faced was his team mate. This year he's only really facing Vettel, which is as tough a challenge as you're likely to get but Alonso is definitely proving himself the top of the division he's been driving around in

Hamilton in the last 2 years has raced for the championship against a 4 time WDC driving for the most successful team in F1 history and he has delivered 1 championship and is looking pretty strong to make it 2/2. Are we really supposed to weigh that evenly with Alonso besting the likes of Vandoorne and Gasly?

Sure, because we are not just talking about the last couple of years. Alonso has dominated his team mate wherever he has been and has beaten others driving better cars than he has. What more can he do? Hamilton has also given some impressive performances but even just taking the last race Alonso beat his team mate by 8 tenths of a second (where for McLaren every session is Q3) and everyone has been waxing lyrical about Lewis beating his by less. So how can we say from that that Hamilton is definitely performing better?

The above is just for illustrative purposes, btw, and not intended to disparage Hamilton's performances in any way. But given that Alonso is never going to fight for pole in the car he has, his performances are still pretty standout and shouldn't be dismissed simply because he's not in the glamorous seats

Vandoorne clipped the wall 3 times on his lap and said it was a messy lap, also are we comparing a rookie with no known form in F1 with seasoned drivers with reputations of actually beating someone in F1.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:26 pm 
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MB-BOB wrote:
Alonso, Alonso, Alonso... Enough already. Put a fork in him, he's done in F1. x(

Can't wait to see how his ego plays out in Indycar. :smug:

Remember, the topic of this discussion is Hamilton vs Vettel...

Vettel seems to be losing so we need to throw Alonso into the mix. ;)

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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