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Is there a clear winner between Hamilton and Vettel as drivers?
Hamilton is clearly better at this point. 81%  81%  [ 70 ]
Vettel is clearly better at this point. 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
It is still not clear who is the better driver at this point. 17%  17%  [ 15 ]
Total votes : 86
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:39 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
In 2015, there were 19 races.

Mercedes had the best car in 16 of them, and Hamilton and Rosberg split the cake 10-6.

Ferrari had the best car in 1 of them (Singapore), which Vettel won convincingly.

There were two races where the cars were fairly equal (Malaysia and Hungary). In both those races, Vettel outraced Hamilton and won despite starting behind.

On that basis Vettel was better than Hamilton. Also, when Hamilton won the WDC in Austin, Vettel was still ahead of Rosberg in the championship, which was incredible considering how dominant Mercedes was.


So what about the vast majority of races where Merc was better? He drove better then? You seem to be making a decision on who was better based solely on two of the 19 races.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:11 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:22 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


That's quite an unsupported generalisation you make here. Best not to commit to such logical fallacies on a forum for debate.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:25 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


That's quite an unsupported generalisation you make here. Best not to commit to such logical fallacies on a forum for debate.

How do you know is unsupported? It's my impression, not yours. Problem?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:30 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


That's quite an unsupported generalisation you make here. Best not to commit to such logical fallacies on a forum for debate.

How do you know is unsupported? It's my impression, not yours. Problem?


It's unsupported because you haven't provided any evidence at all to back that claim up.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:37 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

Either you haven't been reading this thread, or this is just baiting. There are plenty of people here who prefer Vettel over Hamilton who acknowledge that Hamilton's doing a better job this year.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:38 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


That's quite an unsupported generalisation you make here. Best not to commit to such logical fallacies on a forum for debate.

It's just an opinion. However when I look at, for instance, the number of people who blamed Hamilton for their clash in Baku last year, it's not an opinion I would agree with.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:40 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


That's quite an unsupported generalisation you make here. Best not to commit to such logical fallacies on a forum for debate.

He said it was a general impression. What's a forum for if not to debate opinions?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


That's quite an unsupported generalisation you make here. Best not to commit to such logical fallacies on a forum for debate.

How do you know is unsupported? It's my impression, not yours. Problem?


It shows that before you even enter a debate about such things in topic, you value the opinion of any supporter of Lewis Hamiltons less. It belies your position...any argument made is going to bounce off you because of "bias" stereotype.

All fans have their bias, some still claim vettel was brake checked in Baku, and some Hamilton fans claim McLaren sabotaged Hamilton in 2007. You should enter each debate anew, pretty much all generalisations/stereotyping are unhealthy and any set fans of anything F1 or not has fanatics, and this never cause to tar others with the same brush


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

Either you haven't been reading this thread, or this is just baiting. There are plenty of people here who prefer Vettel over Hamilton who acknowledge that Hamilton's doing a better job this year.


Definitely not baiting bit surprised you said that, the vote says nothing about this year Zoue its a genuine comment, I may have a different opinion but I would expect fans to vote for their their man.

I do read the threads and had noted that at least 2 regular Ferrari fans hadn't contributed.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:12 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


That's quite an unsupported generalisation you make here. Best not to commit to such logical fallacies on a forum for debate.

How do you know is unsupported? It's my impression, not yours. Problem?


It shows that before you even enter a debate about such things in topic, you value the opinion of any supporter of Lewis Hamiltons less. It belies your position...any argument made is going to bounce off you because of "bias" stereotype.

All fans have their bias, some still claim vettel was brake checked in Baku, and some Hamilton fans claim McLaren sabotaged Hamilton in 2007. You should enter each debate anew, pretty much all generalisations/stereotyping are unhealthy and any set fans of anything F1 or not has fanatics, and this never cause to tar others with the same brush

Not necessarily. I know some Hamilton supporters who are very nice people, unbiased and fair.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:28 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I've often though Vettel would have the ability to be better than hamilton if he just made less mistakes. The difference between then in Vettel's favour is that during the races, I virtually never see Vettel lacking pace like Hamilton seems to several times a season. But Vettel just makes too many simple mistakes for me to concider him better now. Even though Hamilton is genrally quicker, If Vettel didn't make his mistakes, I think I would judge them as basically even. Purely because I very rarely see Vettel lack pace in the same way that Hamilton sometimes does. But yes, Vettel has made a lot of mistakes over the last 2 years and that is what is making it pretty obvious that Hamilton is better. If they are both on top form, which often is the case, there is not a big difference.


How can you say several times? It only happens about 2-3 races as year. That cannot be defined as several. I agree that Vettel is usually more on it pace wise from weekend to weekend though.

For me I realized Hamilton was better last year. He is just a more complete driver than Vettel, has better race craft and probably has more raw pace as well. I have seen someone beat Vettel for pace in the same car. I have yet to see Hamilton get beat for pace in the same car. The only guys I consider to be a match for Hamilton are Alonso, and to a lesser extent, Verstappen. Vettel is a great driver, that shouldn't be discounted, but Hamilton is better.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Vettel is good. Very good in fact. But Hamilton is just....better.

Better qualifier, better racecraft, better temperament.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Vettel fan. But Hamilton is just better. :(


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Vettel is better than Raikkonen.

That's all we can say with confidence at this point.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:28 pm 
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At the beginning of the year, Vettel was the better driver. Right now it is clearly Hamilton.

But the first post seems to be asking overall. If I gauge year by year I would rate them as follows in terms of their DRIVING (objectively as possible):

2007 - Hamilton (Vettel only reserve, but I count this year anyway because it plays a major role in my opinion of Hamilton in a positive sense - he was brilliant)
2008 - Tied
2009 - Vettel
2010 - Tied
2011 - Vettel
2012 - Vettel
2013 - Vettel
2014 - Hamilton
2015 - Hamilton
2016 - Vettel
2017- Tied

So on the whole, as you can see, I would give Vettel the nod over the years - which is why I am his fan. No surprise there.

That said, objectively, they are super close - and both are so brilliant, it is almost pointless to debate who is better. Imagine an objective movie in years to come:

They will show Hamilton's brilliant year in 2007 - and Vettel's good one off; and then Vettel's fantastic 2008 start and Hamilton's amazing triumph as a young World Champion in that against all odds final race. Hamilton and Vettel's heartbreak 2009 and the extremely close racing in 2010, where Hamilton fell out of real contention only at the next to the last race and then Vettel's even younger, unforeseen, yet amazing triumph (remember it was surely going to be Webber or Alonso). Then they will show Vettel's brilliant 2011 and how Hamilton struggled terribly, losing to his teammate and to the point that it seemed Vettel would take over as the decade's new Schumi. 2012 continues with Vettel's amazing 40 point comeback against Alonso to win it by the grace of the gods in that crazy Brazil race - with Hamilton looking much better, but overshadowed by his rival in a faster car. In 2013, Vettel seals his greatness among his piers as a 4 time world champion and Hamilton continues with a slower paced car, overshadowed. Alas it's 2014 and everything changes, the regs, Vettel's attitude and his legacy is questioned as he loses to his teammate for the first time in the final standings after a miserable year where he had a comparably terrible performance and Hamilton, who took a great risk changing teams, finds his footing again and begins to catch Vettel's legacy looking like his old 2007 self. 2015 he continues to rise, and Vettel, now also changing teams and looking better, still can't match Hamilton's superman like rhythm - he looks unbeatable. 2016 sees Hamilton stall against his teammate - losing to him and having a rather miserable time of it, whereas Vettel, struggling with a slower paced car is overshadowed by his rivals' turmoil. 2017 sees Hamilton back on the mark, with the fastest pace and his championship teammate retired and replaced with a fast, but not as fiesty Bottas. Hamilton matches Vettel's legacy and sets up the race world for 2018 when the two 4 time world champions will fight for supremacy.

And we are back to my first statement in this post as to what's happened so far. But it is F1 and anything can happen. Independent of who wins - and right now Hamilton has the definite upper leg - they will be a 5 time WDC - and face their rival in 2019 - when as the above paragraph shows, will probably be more topsy turvyness. Vettel will have a new teammate - a younger new guy and Mercedes and Ferrari will vie for mastery. Don't discount Max being a factor and putting both of their noses out of joint sooner than later. Anyway you look at it, we are in for excitement.

In my opinion, objectively guessing at the future: they will be shown as two greats at some point in the future and who is greatest will be debated into eternity. Both have struggled over periods, both have been brilliant. We choose a favorite based on subjective criteria, I really can't fault anyone for picking either one.


Last edited by bourbon19 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:30 pm 
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I think Hamilton, when things are going well, just rides the wave and is virtually unstoppable. Everything has turned to gold for him this season, and after a shakey start, he is driving superbly.

The sulks and poor me mentallity are nowhere near as prominent as the younger version. Indeed this mature version of Hamilton is a very complete driver. IMO he is a step above everyone just now.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:33 pm 
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No doubt for me and tbh there wasn't during the Red Bull run either. Seb is capable of incredible performances and is a top driver but I just don't think he hits those heights as consistently as Lewis and the very very best do. I think he needs a Red Bull level of car advantage to deal with a Lewis and the cars right now are too close for him to come out on top over a season as long as this.

Ferrari are still on the up so they may well give him that type of advantage next year so he may well win more but he'll now have to deal with Leclerc which might be his biggest issue next year even if they do give him a 3-5th advantage over Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:03 pm 
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The hard part is that these last two years are the only time when they have truly battled each other on level pegging. I'd say 2012 could have been a year like that but McLaren's team performance and reliability was so poor that it never panned out that way.

I tend to feel that most fans don't really rate the drivers based on their actual driving. They kind of go by their race results, achievements, personal preference/favoritism, etc. Those things matter but if you look at actual driving ability, for me, there is no question that Hamilton is superior. In terms of driving talent, there are very few drivers ever who I would put in category with Lewis while there are quite a few current drivers who I would put in category with Sebastian. In terms of ability, the only drivers on the grid who I feel are comparable to Lewis are Alonso and Verstappen.

For me, ever since Hamilton came into the sport in 2007, he and Alonso have been the best in the world. I think that as he has gotten a bit older Hamilton has even put a gap between himself and Alonso because the one element that Alonso used to have over him (consistency) is no longer an advantage to Alonso. In the last 7 years or so, Hamilton almost never makes a big driving mistake in the races. I think his ceiling is a bit higher than Alonso's and with his current form, he's better than Alonso ever was. His ability to be as fast as he is without making any errors makes him about as good as you can get. You can go to Schumacher, Senna or anyone else you want to name. Put them in the car instead of Lewis and you gain nothing.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:09 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
The hard part is that these last two years are the only time when they have truly battled each other on level pegging. I'd say 2012 could have been a year like that but McLaren's team performance and reliability was so poor that it never panned out that way.

I tend to feel that most fans don't really rate the drivers based on their actual driving. They kind of go by their race results, achievements, personal preference/favoritism, etc. Those things matter but if you look at actual driving ability, for me, there is no question that Hamilton is superior. In terms of driving talent, there are very few drivers ever who I would put in category with Lewis while there are quite a few current drivers who I would put in category with Sebastian. In terms of ability, the only drivers on the grid who I feel are comparable to Lewis are Alonso and Verstappen.

For me, ever since Hamilton came into the sport in 2007, he and Alonso have been the best in the world. I think that as he has gotten a bit older Hamilton has even put a gap between himself and Alonso because the one element that Alonso used to have over him (consistency) is no longer an advantage to Alonso. In the last 7 years or so, Hamilton almost never makes a big driving mistake in the races. I think his ceiling is a bit higher than Alonso's and with his current form, he's better than Alonso ever was. His ability to be as fast as he is without making any errors makes him about as good as you can get. You can go to Schumacher, Senna or anyone else you want to name. Put them in the car instead of Lewis and you gain nothing.


Ferrari and Mercedes were not equally paced last year, so I don't understand why you feel they were equally pegged. This year I do feel you can make that argument.

Furthermore, I do not understand the replace-a-driver argument. I mean you can add Button and Rosberg to the "put them in the car instead of Lewis and you gain nothing" argument because that is exactly what happened for those teams when they beat him to the championship in the same car.

Maybe you are not inferring that only a select few drivers could have won in the Merc with that statement, but if you are, I disagree as I believe any number of drivers could have. It was by far the best car until this season (similar to the 2010-2014 RBR).


Last edited by bourbon19 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:14 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The hard part is that these last two years are the only time when they have truly battled each other on level pegging. I'd say 2012 could have been a year like that but McLaren's team performance and reliability was so poor that it never panned out that way.

I tend to feel that most fans don't really rate the drivers based on their actual driving. They kind of go by their race results, achievements, personal preference/favoritism, etc. Those things matter but if you look at actual driving ability, for me, there is no question that Hamilton is superior. In terms of driving talent, there are very few drivers ever who I would put in category with Lewis while there are quite a few current drivers who I would put in category with Sebastian. In terms of ability, the only drivers on the grid who I feel are comparable to Lewis are Alonso and Verstappen.

For me, ever since Hamilton came into the sport in 2007, he and Alonso have been the best in the world. I think that as he has gotten a bit older Hamilton has even put a gap between himself and Alonso because the one element that Alonso used to have over him (consistency) is no longer an advantage to Alonso. In the last 7 years or so, Hamilton almost never makes a big driving mistake in the races. I think his ceiling is a bit higher than Alonso's and with his current form, he's better than Alonso ever was. His ability to be as fast as he is without making any errors makes him about as good as you can get. You can go to Schumacher, Senna or anyone else you want to name. Put them in the car instead of Lewis and you gain nothing.


You believe Ferrari and Mercedes were equally paced last year? Really?

It ebbed and flowed. Some races Merc were better, others Ferrari were better. On balance, I think Mercedes edged it but, up to the point when Hamilton secured the championship, the car advantage was zero. Ironically, it was the tail end of the season where Mercedes surged ahead on performance. The point where Hamilton wrestled the title away from Vettel was actually earlier in the year on Ferrari's strongest circuits. Hamilton beat Vettel in places like Singapore and Malaysia; where the Ferrari was significantly quicker.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:28 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The hard part is that these last two years are the only time when they have truly battled each other on level pegging. I'd say 2012 could have been a year like that but McLaren's team performance and reliability was so poor that it never panned out that way.

I tend to feel that most fans don't really rate the drivers based on their actual driving. They kind of go by their race results, achievements, personal preference/favoritism, etc. Those things matter but if you look at actual driving ability, for me, there is no question that Hamilton is superior. In terms of driving talent, there are very few drivers ever who I would put in category with Lewis while there are quite a few current drivers who I would put in category with Sebastian. In terms of ability, the only drivers on the grid who I feel are comparable to Lewis are Alonso and Verstappen.

For me, ever since Hamilton came into the sport in 2007, he and Alonso have been the best in the world. I think that as he has gotten a bit older Hamilton has even put a gap between himself and Alonso because the one element that Alonso used to have over him (consistency) is no longer an advantage to Alonso. In the last 7 years or so, Hamilton almost never makes a big driving mistake in the races. I think his ceiling is a bit higher than Alonso's and with his current form, he's better than Alonso ever was. His ability to be as fast as he is without making any errors makes him about as good as you can get. You can go to Schumacher, Senna or anyone else you want to name. Put them in the car instead of Lewis and you gain nothing.


You believe Ferrari and Mercedes were equally paced last year? Really?

It ebbed and flowed. Some races Merc were better, others Ferrari were better. On balance, I think Mercedes edged it but, up to the point when Hamilton secured the championship, the car advantage was zero. Ironically, it was the tail end of the season where Mercedes surged ahead on performance. The point where Hamilton wrestled the title away from Vettel was actually earlier in the year on Ferrari's strongest circuits. Hamilton beat Vettel in places like Singapore and Malaysia; where the Ferrari was significantly quicker.


I think Merc had the edge. I do not believe they have the edge this year tho, so this year (in which Hamilton is clearly ahead on merit), they were much more evenly paced. However, I appreciate your opinion. I am more interested in understanding your replace-a-driver argument. I didn't really understand where you were going with that.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Last year Mercedes took 15 out of 20 pole positions. They had more races where they were faster, and dominated by bigger margins on their best tracks.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:29 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The hard part is that these last two years are the only time when they have truly battled each other on level pegging. I'd say 2012 could have been a year like that but McLaren's team performance and reliability was so poor that it never panned out that way.

I tend to feel that most fans don't really rate the drivers based on their actual driving. They kind of go by their race results, achievements, personal preference/favoritism, etc. Those things matter but if you look at actual driving ability, for me, there is no question that Hamilton is superior. In terms of driving talent, there are very few drivers ever who I would put in category with Lewis while there are quite a few current drivers who I would put in category with Sebastian. In terms of ability, the only drivers on the grid who I feel are comparable to Lewis are Alonso and Verstappen.

For me, ever since Hamilton came into the sport in 2007, he and Alonso have been the best in the world. I think that as he has gotten a bit older Hamilton has even put a gap between himself and Alonso because the one element that Alonso used to have over him (consistency) is no longer an advantage to Alonso. In the last 7 years or so, Hamilton almost never makes a big driving mistake in the races. I think his ceiling is a bit higher than Alonso's and with his current form, he's better than Alonso ever was. His ability to be as fast as he is without making any errors makes him about as good as you can get. You can go to Schumacher, Senna or anyone else you want to name. Put them in the car instead of Lewis and you gain nothing.


You believe Ferrari and Mercedes were equally paced last year? Really?

It ebbed and flowed. Some races Merc were better, others Ferrari were better. On balance, I think Mercedes edged it but, up to the point when Hamilton secured the championship, the car advantage was zero. Ironically, it was the tail end of the season where Mercedes surged ahead on performance. The point where Hamilton wrestled the title away from Vettel was actually earlier in the year on Ferrari's strongest circuits. Hamilton beat Vettel in places like Singapore and Malaysia; where the Ferrari was significantly quicker.


I think Merc had the edge. I do not believe they have the edge this year tho, so this year (in which Hamilton is clearly ahead on merit), they were much more evenly paced. However, I appreciate your opinion. I am more interested in understanding your replace-a-driver argument. I didn't really understand where you were going with that.

I think what sandman is saying is that Hamilton is a Senna/Schumacher level driver while Vettel is a Hakkinen level driver.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:37 pm 
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In second half usually Mercedes gets better. Ferrari did great job last year and this year are even better but cannot be consistent. Vettel needs to be calm. I have a feeling he might do more stupid things in coming races if he does not get p1 in qualifying.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:41 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The hard part is that these last two years are the only time when they have truly battled each other on level pegging. I'd say 2012 could have been a year like that but McLaren's team performance and reliability was so poor that it never panned out that way.

I tend to feel that most fans don't really rate the drivers based on their actual driving. They kind of go by their race results, achievements, personal preference/favoritism, etc. Those things matter but if you look at actual driving ability, for me, there is no question that Hamilton is superior. In terms of driving talent, there are very few drivers ever who I would put in category with Lewis while there are quite a few current drivers who I would put in category with Sebastian. In terms of ability, the only drivers on the grid who I feel are comparable to Lewis are Alonso and Verstappen.

For me, ever since Hamilton came into the sport in 2007, he and Alonso have been the best in the world. I think that as he has gotten a bit older Hamilton has even put a gap between himself and Alonso because the one element that Alonso used to have over him (consistency) is no longer an advantage to Alonso. In the last 7 years or so, Hamilton almost never makes a big driving mistake in the races. I think his ceiling is a bit higher than Alonso's and with his current form, he's better than Alonso ever was. His ability to be as fast as he is without making any errors makes him about as good as you can get. You can go to Schumacher, Senna or anyone else you want to name. Put them in the car instead of Lewis and you gain nothing.


You believe Ferrari and Mercedes were equally paced last year? Really?

It ebbed and flowed. Some races Merc were better, others Ferrari were better. On balance, I think Mercedes edged it but, up to the point when Hamilton secured the championship, the car advantage was zero. Ironically, it was the tail end of the season where Mercedes surged ahead on performance. The point where Hamilton wrestled the title away from Vettel was actually earlier in the year on Ferrari's strongest circuits. Hamilton beat Vettel in places like Singapore and Malaysia; where the Ferrari was significantly quicker.


I think Merc had the edge. I do not believe they have the edge this year tho, so this year (in which Hamilton is clearly ahead on merit), they were much more evenly paced. However, I appreciate your opinion. I am more interested in understanding your replace-a-driver argument. I didn't really understand where you were going with that.

I think what sandman is saying is that Hamilton is a Senna/Schumacher level driver while Vettel is a Hakkinen level driver.

That's not a bad summary of my perspective actually. We're splitting hairs here. Vettel is obviously a prodigy of a racing driver and has produced magical performances in his career. For me though, it's clear that Hamilton has a bit more bandwidth overall. The breadth of his talents and his ability to adapt to any circumstance and execute any tactic are what separates him from Vettel. I also think Lewis has superior racecraft and a bit more natural speed. Vettel has a LOT of speed though.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:52 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
I think Merc had the edge. I do not believe they have the edge this year tho, so this year (in which Hamilton is clearly ahead on merit), they were much more evenly paced. However, I appreciate your opinion. I am more interested in understanding your replace-a-driver argument. I didn't really understand where you were going with that.

I think what sandman is saying is that Hamilton is a Senna/Schumacher level driver while Vettel is a Hakkinen level driver.

That's not a bad summary of my perspective actually. We're splitting hairs here. Vettel is obviously a prodigy of a racing driver and has produced magical performances in his career. For me though, it's clear that Hamilton has a bit more bandwidth overall. The breadth of his talents and his ability to adapt to any circumstance and execute any tactic are what separates him from Vettel. I also think Lewis has superior racecraft and a bit more natural speed. Vettel has a LOT of speed though.


Gotcha. We have a different guy ahead, but I also agree it is splitting hairs. Both are great. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:56 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Last year Mercedes took 15 out of 20 pole positions. They had more races where they were faster, and dominated by bigger margins on their best tracks.


In 12 of those 20 races Vettel got track position or starting ahead of Hamilton so it wasn't really an issue for him.
Ferrari also started on pole or within 0.1 of pole in 10 races so the 15/20 makes it look a bit more one sided than it was.

Mercedes in 2018 have been on pole or within 0.1 of pole in 9/15 races.

The Mercedes was the better car in 2017, faster and more reliable though. Reliability is important. This year they are certainly closer than in 2017, but Vettel has been bulletproof.


Last edited by Johnson on Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:59 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

Either you haven't been reading this thread, or this is just baiting. There are plenty of people here who prefer Vettel over Hamilton who acknowledge that Hamilton's doing a better job this year.


Definitely not baiting bit surprised you said that, the vote says nothing about this year Zoue its a genuine comment, I may have a different opinion but I would expect fans to vote for their their man.

I do read the threads and had noted that at least 2 regular Ferrari fans hadn't contributed.

You look at the comments though and a lot of people are talking about this year, with a fair few from Vettel's "camp." It seems to me people are voting on that basis


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:10 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
I think Merc had the edge. I do not believe they have the edge this year tho, so this year (in which Hamilton is clearly ahead on merit), they were much more evenly paced. However, I appreciate your opinion. I am more interested in understanding your replace-a-driver argument. I didn't really understand where you were going with that.

I think what sandman is saying is that Hamilton is a Senna/Schumacher level driver while Vettel is a Hakkinen level driver.

That's not a bad summary of my perspective actually. We're splitting hairs here. Vettel is obviously a prodigy of a racing driver and has produced magical performances in his career. For me though, it's clear that Hamilton has a bit more bandwidth overall. The breadth of his talents and his ability to adapt to any circumstance and execute any tactic are what separates him from Vettel. I also think Lewis has superior racecraft and a bit more natural speed. Vettel has a LOT of speed though.


Gotcha. We have a different guy ahead, but I also agree it is splitting hairs. Both are great. :thumbup:

On the bolded part we definitely agree!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Last year Mercedes took 15 out of 20 pole positions. They had more races where they were faster, and dominated by bigger margins on their best tracks.


In 12 of those 20 races Vettel got track position or starting ahead of Hamilton so it wasn't really an issue for him.
Ferrari also started on pole or within 0.1 of pole in 10 races so the 15/20 makes it look a bit more one sided than it was.

Mercedes in 2018 have been on pole or within 0.1 of pole in 9/15 races.

The Mercedes was the better car in 2017, faster and more reliable though. Reliability is important. This year they are certainly closer than in 2017, but Vettel has been bulletproof.


Didn't Mercedes also have their share of reliability issues in 2017?

Reliability is an important factor, but what role does the driver play in this? On recently reading an article by Mark Hughes (who is of the opinion that Ferrari had the better car in 2017), he alludes to the possibility of Vettel triggering some of those reliability problems.. ( see the LMP thread in comments section).

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news ... d-soon-end

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:07 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


I have pretty much the opposite impression. I don't think there are anti-Sebastian fans out there with nearly the hatred and vitriol as the Hamilton Haters. Witness the need for this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkywAaPv4rY Some dislike Lewis for his personal style and some claim that Lewis only wins races and championships when he is in a vastly superior car.

I am somewhat of a Lewis fan but I will give Seb credit when he deserves it. I am very glad that both are there to provide the best rivalry we have seen since Prost-Senna.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


I have pretty much the opposite impression. I don't think there are anti-Sebastian fans out there with nearly the hatred and vitriol as the Hamilton Haters. Witness the need for this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkywAaPv4rY Some dislike Lewis for his personal style and some claim that Lewis only wins races and championships when he is in a vastly superior car.

I am somewhat of a Lewis fan but I will give Seb credit when he deserves it. I am very glad that both are there to provide the best rivalry we have seen since Prost-Senna.

This and it's not even close. There basically aren't Vettel-haters at all. There are a few posters who clearly don't like him but it's nothing compared to what you see with Hamilton. In fact the anti-Hamilton camp is probably larger than the pro-any other driver camp!

I do wonder what that's all about sometimes. Hamilton doesn't have the controversial on-track moments like Schumacher in his actions against Hill or Villeneuve or like Senna and Prost in their heated rivalry. Lewis also doesn't have off-track issues with drugs or trouble with the law etc. Are F1 fans really that upset about his fashion and music tastes?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:34 pm 
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duplicate


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:03 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


I have pretty much the opposite impression. I don't think there are anti-Sebastian fans out there with nearly the hatred and vitriol as the Hamilton Haters. Witness the need for this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkywAaPv4rY Some dislike Lewis for his personal style and some claim that Lewis only wins races and championships when he is in a vastly superior car.

I am somewhat of a Lewis fan but I will give Seb credit when he deserves it. I am very glad that both are there to provide the best rivalry we have seen since Prost-Senna.

This and it's not even close. There basically aren't Vettel-haters at all. There are a few posters who clearly don't like him but it's nothing compared to what you see with Hamilton. In fact the anti-Hamilton camp is probably larger than the pro-any other driver camp!

I do wonder what that's all about sometimes. Hamilton doesn't have the controversial on-track moments like Schumacher in his actions against Hill or Villeneuve or like Senna and Prost in their heated rivalry. Lewis also doesn't have off-track issues with drugs or trouble with the law etc. Are F1 fans really that upset about his fashion and music tastes?


Speaking as someone who cheers for him, off the track I find him utterly insufferable at times. He dresses like a clown, hangs around with some of the more vapid members of our species in his spare time and the less said about some of the waffle that comes out of his mouth, the better. With that said, he's up there with Schumacher and Alonso when it comes to his talent in F1, and getting to watch him at work easily cancels out all of that other nonsense.

It's fairly easy to see why a lot of people really do dislike him though.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:10 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


That's quite an unsupported generalisation you make here. Best not to commit to such logical fallacies on a forum for debate.

How do you know is unsupported? It's my impression, not yours. Problem?


It's unsupported because you haven't provided any evidence at all to back that claim up.


Thar doesn't make it a fallacie as was claimed. The Lt. Stated it was his opinion, never claimed it as fact. He may well be right.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:19 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
What I find interesting is that out of 41 responders the number of forum contributors that think Vettel is better is zero.

So are the fervently passionate Ferrari/Vettel fans simply not participating or do they agree that Hamilton is the better driver? If the latter then this has to be an incredibly objective forum!

I have general impression that Vettel fans are generally less biased than Hamilton fans. If someone is offended, I am fine with that.


I have pretty much the opposite impression. I don't think there are anti-Sebastian fans out there with nearly the hatred and vitriol as the Hamilton Haters. Witness the need for this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkywAaPv4rY Some dislike Lewis for his personal style and some claim that Lewis only wins races and championships when he is in a vastly superior car.

I am somewhat of a Lewis fan but I will give Seb credit when he deserves it. I am very glad that both are there to provide the best rivalry we have seen since Prost-Senna.

This and it's not even close. There basically aren't Vettel-haters at all. There are a few posters who clearly don't like him but it's nothing compared to what you see with Hamilton. In fact the anti-Hamilton camp is probably larger than the pro-any other driver camp!

I do wonder what that's all about sometimes. Hamilton doesn't have the controversial on-track moments like Schumacher in his actions against Hill or Villeneuve or like Senna and Prost in their heated rivalry. Lewis also doesn't have off-track issues with drugs or trouble with the law etc. Are F1 fans really that upset about his fashion and music tastes?


Speaking as someone who cheers for him, off the track I find him utterly insufferable at times. He dresses like a clown, hangs around with some of the more vapid members of our species in his spare time and the less said about some of the waffle that comes out of his mouth, the better. With that said, he's up there with Schumacher and Alonso when it comes to his talent in F1, and getting to watch him at work easily cancels out all of that other nonsense.

It's fairly easy to see why a lot of people really do dislike him though.

I admit that I am not a fan of Hamilton's off-track exploits either. That said, I am a bit unusual in that I don't assume that what I see of someone on TV is representative of who they are as a human being. Mostly I don't care. His personal life is none of my business.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Thar doesn't make it a fallacie as was claimed. The Lt. Stated it was his opinion, never claimed it as fact. He may well be right.


I'm not claiming it to be a fallacy like the other chap, but the claim was definitely unsupported, not even with anecdotal evidence.

He may well be right, but that doesn't mean he should be able to state an opinion as questionable as that and expect to have it go unchallenged.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Thar doesn't make it a fallacie as was claimed. The Lt. Stated it was his opinion, never claimed it as fact. He may well be right.

I'm not claiming it to be a fallacy like the other chap, but the claim was definitely unsupported, not even with anecdotal evidence.

He may well be right, but that doesn't mean he should be able to state an opinion as questionable as that and expect to have it go unchallenged.

Can we please not get into allegations of who has the larger anti-fanbase? That is not on topic, and is a sure way to get this thread locked. We've managed to have a fair amount of actual discussion, so I'd like it if we can stick to discussing their strengths as drivers and not their fanbases!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:34 pm 
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Timing of this thread is very fitting to me - I had this same thought after Hamilton's 1st lap of Q3.

I cheer for and respect both drivers, and have been cheering Seb on to deliver Ferrari a title, but I always did feel the following: Are they equal talents or is Hamilton slightly better? I never actually wondered if Vettel was potentially the better all of these years.

But for me, this qualifying session and this year in general has sealed the deal for me. Hamilton has just kept his composure in the 2017 and 2018 title fights better, made less silly errors, and has really delivered. He's literally only had one bad year in the sport (2011). To be fair, I think Vettel has more pressure to deliver a result for Ferrari at the moment than Hamilton is for Mercedes. So I think his hill to climb and weight on his shoulders is greater.

Who knows though, perhaps the next 5 years will tell a different story. But I get the impression that Ferrari has lost patience with Seb. I think Hamilton got into his head this year, and Ferrari / LeClerc will after next. Time will tell!

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