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How You'd rate the 3 drivers?
Verstappen > Leclerc > Ocon 34%  34%  [ 11 ]
Verstappen > Ocon > Leclerc 25%  25%  [ 8 ]
Leclerc > Verstappen > Ocon 31%  31%  [ 10 ]
Leclerc > Ocon > Verstappen 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Ocon > Verstappen > Leclerc 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Ocon > Leclerc > Verstappen 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 32
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:42 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Ocon should be looking to get out of his Mercedes contract ASAP, I predict if he remains with Mercedes and does not get a seat for next year it will be the end of his career as an F1 driver as when Russell wins F2 he too joins the queue as well.


Listening to Toto I'd say getting out of Marc would be a huge error for Ocon. I think if he waits it out he's got a better than a 50/50 shot of a Merc ride for 2020.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:16 pm 
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The more I see stupid unforced errors from Leclerc, the less impressed I am with him. I don’t see any reason to assume that he’s already better than Max or Ocon.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ocon should be looking to get out of his Mercedes contract ASAP, I predict if he remains with Mercedes and does not get a seat for next year it will be the end of his career as an F1 driver as when Russell wins F2 he too joins the queue as well.


Listening to Toto I'd say getting out of Marc would be a huge error for Ocon. I think if he waits it out he's got a better than a 50/50 shot of a Merc ride for 2020.

I agree. Bottas has, up to now, only had to perform at or above the level of Raikkonen. With Charles in the lineup at Ferrari next year, Valteri may be exposed somewhat as being an area where Mercedes can improve.

Hard as it may be, Ocon is attached to Mercedes and he should wait it out. They are a top team and they are saying things that suggest that they see potential in him. I suppose they didn't realize that those other seats would dry up but I still think they should have just signed him to race alongside Hamilton in 2019. Bottas gives them the perfect #2 but I think they do need to start considering a succession plan to protect themselves in case Lewis leaves the team in 2021.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ocon should be looking to get out of his Mercedes contract ASAP, I predict if he remains with Mercedes and does not get a seat for next year it will be the end of his career as an F1 driver as when Russell wins F2 he too joins the queue as well.


Listening to Toto I'd say getting out of Merc would be a huge error for Ocon. I think if he waits it out he's got a better than a 50/50 shot of a Merc ride for 2020.

This simply does not compute to me. Hamilton is still young enough and one of the best so he will be in F1 for several years to come and Bottas, if he improves to be closer to Lewis more consistently should also be retained by Mercedes for at least another season or two, and possibly longer. As such I find it difficult to believe Ocon will be in a Mercedes winning races and championships because the day Hamilton decides to move on is either because Mercedes decline in performance and are no longer as competitive, or… to pilot a scarlet red car. That would mean Ocon will be waiting in the wings for so long that not only will people lose interest in him, but he'd end up losing a touch of his sharpness which is all a driver needs to be off the pace in F1.

Were I his management team, I'd structure a deal whereby he is officially released so he can find a seat now, but once that relationship is reaching its end, Tot or Mercedes will have first dibs on retaining his services. That would be a win win for all involved. And Ocon seems like a very honorable and loyal person so I'd have all the confidence that he'd honor such an agreement, and I'd venture to say Mercedes would be contractually obligated to follow through with any such agreement as I would expect something of that nature to be in writing.

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HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ocon should be looking to get out of his Mercedes contract ASAP, I predict if he remains with Mercedes and does not get a seat for next year it will be the end of his career as an F1 driver as when Russell wins F2 he too joins the queue as well.


Listening to Toto I'd say getting out of Marc would be a huge error for Ocon. I think if he waits it out he's got a better than a 50/50 shot of a Merc ride for 2020.


Hamilton is signed till end of 2020, so I don't know when this winning championships is going to start.

Verstappen will have honed his skills well, and Leclerc will have done 2yrs at Ferrari so I'm tryig to see where Ocon fits and you have Russell coming up as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:08 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ocon should be looking to get out of his Mercedes contract ASAP, I predict if he remains with Mercedes and does not get a seat for next year it will be the end of his career as an F1 driver as when Russell wins F2 he too joins the queue as well.


Listening to Toto I'd say getting out of Marc would be a huge error for Ocon. I think if he waits it out he's got a better than a 50/50 shot of a Merc ride for 2020.

I agree. Bottas has, up to now, only had to perform at or above the level of Raikkonen. With Charles in the lineup at Ferrari next year, Valteri may be exposed somewhat as being an area where Mercedes can improve.

Hard as it may be, Ocon is attached to Mercedes and he should wait it out. They are a top team and they are saying things that suggest that they see potential in him. I suppose they didn't realize that those other seats would dry up but I still think they should have just signed him to race alongside Hamilton in 2019. Bottas gives them the perfect #2 but I think they do need to start considering a succession plan to protect themselves in case Lewis leaves the team in 2021.


Everyone with backing is getting a drive except Mercedes sponsored drivers, he's going to end up like Wherlein or Paffett.

Look at Gasly, Redbull got him a gig out of F1 and the moment a seat was free he was brought in, Mercedes didn't believe enough in Ocon to bring him in when Rosberg left, for all the flak Ferrari get they have put Leclerc in the car with half a seasons experience.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:30 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ocon should be looking to get out of his Mercedes contract ASAP, I predict if he remains with Mercedes and does not get a seat for next year it will be the end of his career as an F1 driver as when Russell wins F2 he too joins the queue as well.


Listening to Toto I'd say getting out of Marc would be a huge error for Ocon. I think if he waits it out he's got a better than a 50/50 shot of a Merc ride for 2020.

I agree. Bottas has, up to now, only had to perform at or above the level of Raikkonen. With Charles in the lineup at Ferrari next year, Valteri may be exposed somewhat as being an area where Mercedes can improve.

Hard as it may be, Ocon is attached to Mercedes and he should wait it out. They are a top team and they are saying things that suggest that they see potential in him. I suppose they didn't realize that those other seats would dry up but I still think they should have just signed him to race alongside Hamilton in 2019. Bottas gives them the perfect #2 but I think they do need to start considering a succession plan to protect themselves in case Lewis leaves the team in 2021.


Everyone with backing is getting a drive except Mercedes sponsored drivers, he's going to end up like Wherlein or Paffett.

Look at Gasly, Redbull got him a gig out of F1 and the moment a seat was free he was brought in, Mercedes didn't believe enough in Ocon to bring him in when Rosberg left, for all the flak Ferrari get they have put Leclerc in the car with half a seasons experience.

All true but it's also true that Charles has been more impressive than Esteban while Bottas has been better than Raikkonen for the most part (though at this point I'm tempted to say that Kimi is having the better season in 2018). The situations are not identical between Ferrari and Mercedes. One team is winning the titles while the other team is trying to get there. Considering the fact that it looked like Ocon would have a seat for 2019, I can understand Mercedes not wanting to rock the boat at the big team.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Well I'm hardly enamoured by Ocon. He is strong and solid but to me lacks some je ne sais quoi.


Max = Charles >> Esteban... prediction for the future.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:11 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:

I am still surprised at that some people saw it this way. One thing I'm not sure about, but I heard some people mentioned this. I think it was Leclerc who made the call that he wanted the inters. I don't know that for sure, but yes, that was a mistake by either him or the team. But, he did not spin on those tyres. He very soon pitted and went back on to ultras. He then came out a second behind Vandoorne. He then didn't have 1 spin on these tyres, but 2. First one didn't cost him much time, but when he went onto the gravel, that most certainly did. He finished the race over 70 seconds behind Vandoorne (who was already quite a lot slower than Ericsson) and finished last. And that was even with the safety car that possibly undid a bit of the time he lost.
Meanwhile, Ericsson, who was on ultras was having a very solid race in the points. Even if Leclerc hadn't pitted for inters, his tyres will have been a slower compound and far older than Ericsson's (opposite way round to the start of the race which will have helped Leclerc be quicker there). So it could have been possible that Ericsson caught up and got past like he and Grosjean did with several other drivers. And how can we guarantee that Leclerc won't have made this mistake even without pitting? It was just as likely. It wasn't pitting that caused it.

The last 20 laps or so were terrible from Leclerc. He looked to be struggling more than Ericsson has in any stage of any race this season. But at least this hasn't occurred again with Leclerc.


Leclerc said he was called in which doesn't sound like it was up to him. I'd be surprised if a team let a rookie make that kind off call while running in the points tbh so it's hard to criticise much that comes after the gamble when he's obviously going to be desperately trying to make up for what he's now lost and be more aggressive while doing it. He said they struggled to get the tyres to work so I don't think it's the same as running in the points and just defending your position which he's done faultlessly countless times this year and had been doing up to that point in Germany, I don't know why he'd suddenly be as aggressive as he was post gamble, especially as he had a long stint to do on the softs.

I don't think Ericsson makes up the 20s while being in the traffic he was in while also trying to go long on his ultras so I think the 'W' was secure enough for Charles if they hadn't gambled at that time.



(Leclerc's and Vasseur's comments in here make it sound like it was just Sauber's call...
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... siyeC.html )

I believed they called both drivers in but Ericsson said no after remembering a similar situation before, so basically Ericsson used his greater experience to beat Leclerc, so technically he did beat him.


Haven't read that myself but I don't think I claimed otherwise, just pointing out Charles was well set before the teams gamble.

Still it's part of a driver's skill set to read a situation, also yes in the dry Leclerc was quicker, in the wet unlike Ericsson, Leclerc made many mistakes.


That seems to be, much like aquaplaning, only really put at the drivers door depending on who it is otherwise we tend to read things like the 'pit wall have all the information' etc.. when it comes to drivers following instructions. And was it experience or skills from Marcus or was it simply doing the opposite to what the team said Leclerc ahead was going to do? Did Marcus float the idea of staying out or was it the team?

I can forgive mistakes when your teams put you in strife and you're trying to make up for it tbh.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:31 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Leclerc said he was called in which doesn't sound like it was up to him. I'd be surprised if a team let a rookie make that kind off call while running in the points tbh so it's hard to criticise much that comes after the gamble when he's obviously going to be desperately trying to make up for what he's now lost and be more aggressive while doing it. He said they struggled to get the tyres to work so I don't think it's the same as running in the points and just defending your position which he's done faultlessly countless times this year and had been doing up to that point in Germany, I don't know why he'd suddenly be as aggressive as he was post gamble, especially as he had a long stint to do on the softs.

I don't think Ericsson makes up the 20s while being in the traffic he was in while also trying to go long on his ultras so I think the 'W' was secure enough for Charles if they hadn't gambled at that time.



(Leclerc's and Vasseur's comments in here make it sound like it was just Sauber's call...
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... siyeC.html )

I believed they called both drivers in but Ericsson said no after remembering a similar situation before, so basically Ericsson used his greater experience to beat Leclerc, so technically he did beat him.


Haven't read that myself but I don't think I claimed otherwise, just pointing out Charles was well set before the teams gamble.

Still it's part of a driver's skill set to read a situation, also yes in the dry Leclerc was quicker, in the wet unlike Ericsson, Leclerc made many mistakes.


That seems to be, much like aquaplaning, only really put at the drivers door depending on who it is otherwise we tend to read things like the 'pit wall have all the information' etc.. when it comes to drivers following instructions. And was it experience or skills from Marcus or was it simply doing the opposite to what the team said Leclerc ahead was going to do? Did Marcus float the idea of staying out or was it the team?

I can forgive mistakes when your teams put you in strife and you're trying to make up for it tbh.


I myself could be less critical of one mistake, even if it was the very costly one. But the fact is, he had a spin, which he was very lucky to save. He should have realised that pushing hard could trigger that. He may not have lost that much time from that, but should have realised that it could have gone much worse. So, he shouldn't have kept pushing hard if that is what he was doing. As it triggered him to go off and loose over a minute. Ericsson to me looks like he was pushing hard given the amount of overtakes he was doing, so I don't see why it should have been much harder for Leclerc to do a few given he was on the same (but newer) tyres at that stage racing against much slower drivers. The mistake the team made was a while before this 2nd mistake happened. It wasn't like it happened while he was attempting an overtake. That will have been a bit more understandable.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believed they called both drivers in but Ericsson said no after remembering a similar situation before, so basically Ericsson used his greater experience to beat Leclerc, so technically he did beat him.


Haven't read that myself but I don't think I claimed otherwise, just pointing out Charles was well set before the teams gamble.

Still it's part of a driver's skill set to read a situation, also yes in the dry Leclerc was quicker, in the wet unlike Ericsson, Leclerc made many mistakes.


That seems to be, much like aquaplaning, only really put at the drivers door depending on who it is otherwise we tend to read things like the 'pit wall have all the information' etc.. when it comes to drivers following instructions. And was it experience or skills from Marcus or was it simply doing the opposite to what the team said Leclerc ahead was going to do? Did Marcus float the idea of staying out or was it the team?

I can forgive mistakes when your teams put you in strife and you're trying to make up for it tbh.


I myself could be less critical of one mistake, even if it was the very costly one. But the fact is, he had a spin, which he was very lucky to save. He should have realised that pushing hard could trigger that. He may not have lost that much time from that, but should have realised that it could have gone much worse. So, he shouldn't have kept pushing hard if that is what he was doing. As it triggered him to go off and loose over a minute. Ericsson to me looks like he was pushing hard given the amount of overtakes he was doing, so I don't see why it should have been much harder for Leclerc to do a few given he was on the same (but newer) tyres at that stage racing against much slower drivers. The mistake the team made was a while before this 2nd mistake happened. It wasn't like it happened while he was attempting an overtake. That will have been a bit more understandable.


It was a race of two halves for him. In the first he held off Alonso very well and was again running in the points and looking comfortable. Then the call comes and after that he was trying to recover what he'd lost through no fault of his own so I would expect him to be getting pretty close to the edge because he's not got anything to lose as he's already lost it in his mind. He was clearly being more aggressive than normal because of it so I don't think it tells me much tbh which is maybe why I'm a bit more forgiving in those types of situations as I'm sure he'll learn from it although those kind of team calls going wrong can still affect the most experienced drivers. Each to their own though of course.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:58 am 
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If it's a "next generation" type question, I think Gasly should be in the mix too.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:58 am 
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And Norris and Russel look the real deal too.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:35 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Leclerc said he was called in which doesn't sound like it was up to him. I'd be surprised if a team let a rookie make that kind off call while running in the points tbh so it's hard to criticise much that comes after the gamble when he's obviously going to be desperately trying to make up for what he's now lost and be more aggressive while doing it. He said they struggled to get the tyres to work so I don't think it's the same as running in the points and just defending your position which he's done faultlessly countless times this year and had been doing up to that point in Germany, I don't know why he'd suddenly be as aggressive as he was post gamble, especially as he had a long stint to do on the softs.

I don't think Ericsson makes up the 20s while being in the traffic he was in while also trying to go long on his ultras so I think the 'W' was secure enough for Charles if they hadn't gambled at that time.



(Leclerc's and Vasseur's comments in here make it sound like it was just Sauber's call...
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... siyeC.html )

I believed they called both drivers in but Ericsson said no after remembering a similar situation before, so basically Ericsson used his greater experience to beat Leclerc, so technically he did beat him.


Haven't read that myself but I don't think I claimed otherwise, just pointing out Charles was well set before the teams gamble.

Still it's part of a driver's skill set to read a situation, also yes in the dry Leclerc was quicker, in the wet unlike Ericsson, Leclerc made many mistakes.


That seems to be, much like aquaplaning, only really put at the drivers door depending on who it is otherwise we tend to read things like the 'pit wall have all the information' etc.. when it comes to drivers following instructions. And was it experience or skills from Marcus or was it simply doing the opposite to what the team said Leclerc ahead was going to do? Did Marcus float the idea of staying out or was it the team?

I can forgive mistakes when your teams put you in strife and you're trying to make up for it tbh.

The track was merely damp so why you fetch the lottery of aquaplaning into it I don't know?

I know this because Ericsson specifically said it, like Leclerc they called him in but Ericsson chose to stay out, that you can put down to experience not the driving itself.

However Leclerc's off track excursion and spin which Ericsson avoided is solely on him, in those conditions Ericsson drove better, so overall Ericsson beat him fair and square in my book.

In respect to Leclerc himself he said he was not happy how he drove in the tricky conditions and he needs to improve.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:09 pm 
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How do you rate drivers, knowing so little about them? I think all three are fast, which all three have shown us. Other than that, what do we see that helps us put them in any kind of rating order? I wouldn't know... Max may yet turn out to be the next Senna, but he continues to make the most ludicrous decisions, which is just about unforgiveable. Ocon's rise last year seems to have stuttered this year, while Leclerc hasn't been in F1 long enough to my mind. Of the three, I like Leclerc best, he gives me the same kind of excited feeling Max did, when he came in. But he seems wiser, I wish I knew why he gives me that impression.

Am I letting myself be fooled by seeing Leclerc as a Prost? Then, perhaps Max is an almost-Senna and Ocon might well turn out to be a Lauda. (How I miss the 1980s, an era of real F1 Grand Prix racing. :nod: )

But on the whole, all I can say is that any single on of these three would be great to have in a serious team; with Max clearly being the highest in terms of maintenance - both real and personal.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believed they called both drivers in but Ericsson said no after remembering a similar situation before, so basically Ericsson used his greater experience to beat Leclerc, so technically he did beat him.


Haven't read that myself but I don't think I claimed otherwise, just pointing out Charles was well set before the teams gamble.

Still it's part of a driver's skill set to read a situation, also yes in the dry Leclerc was quicker, in the wet unlike Ericsson, Leclerc made many mistakes.


That seems to be, much like aquaplaning, only really put at the drivers door depending on who it is otherwise we tend to read things like the 'pit wall have all the information' etc.. when it comes to drivers following instructions. And was it experience or skills from Marcus or was it simply doing the opposite to what the team said Leclerc ahead was going to do? Did Marcus float the idea of staying out or was it the team?

I can forgive mistakes when your teams put you in strife and you're trying to make up for it tbh.

The track was merely damp so why you fetch the lottery of aquaplaning into it I don't know?

I know this because Ericsson specifically said it, like Leclerc they called him in but Ericsson chose to stay out, that you can put down to experience not the driving itself.

However Leclerc's off track excursion and spin which Ericsson avoided is solely on him, in those conditions Ericsson drove better, so overall Ericsson beat him fair and square in my book.

In respect to Leclerc himself he said he was not happy how he drove in the tricky conditions and he needs to improve.


I was mentioning aquaplaning along with how a driver should respond to a strategy call from the pitwall as another example of something that seems to be treated differently depending on who the driver is rather than talking specifically about Charles spins being aquaplaning, they weren't.

I haven't seen Ericsson's comments other than the ones I posted so a link would be helpful if he said something different elsewhere. And yes Charles excursions are on him, I never claimed otherwise much like not I'm not claiming Ericsson didn't win fair and square.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:16 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Haven't read that myself but I don't think I claimed otherwise, just pointing out Charles was well set before the teams gamble.

Still it's part of a driver's skill set to read a situation, also yes in the dry Leclerc was quicker, in the wet unlike Ericsson, Leclerc made many mistakes.


That seems to be, much like aquaplaning, only really put at the drivers door depending on who it is otherwise we tend to read things like the 'pit wall have all the information' etc.. when it comes to drivers following instructions. And was it experience or skills from Marcus or was it simply doing the opposite to what the team said Leclerc ahead was going to do? Did Marcus float the idea of staying out or was it the team?

I can forgive mistakes when your teams put you in strife and you're trying to make up for it tbh.

The track was merely damp so why you fetch the lottery of aquaplaning into it I don't know?

I know this because Ericsson specifically said it, like Leclerc they called him in but Ericsson chose to stay out, that you can put down to experience not the driving itself.

However Leclerc's off track excursion and spin which Ericsson avoided is solely on him, in those conditions Ericsson drove better, so overall Ericsson beat him fair and square in my book.

In respect to Leclerc himself he said he was not happy how he drove in the tricky conditions and he needs to improve.


I was mentioning aquaplaning along with how a driver should respond to a strategy call from the pitwall as another example of something that seems to be treated differently depending on who the driver is rather than talking specifically about Charles spins being aquaplaning, they weren't.

I haven't seen Ericsson's comments other than the ones I posted so a link would be helpful if he said something different elsewhere. And yes Charles excursions are on him, I never claimed otherwise much like not I'm not claiming Ericsson didn't win fair and square.

Fair enough, would you take my word that Ericsson made his own call because I don't rate Ericsson and believe Leclerc is far superior, I was just correcting for accuracy?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:22 am 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ocon should be looking to get out of his Mercedes contract ASAP, I predict if he remains with Mercedes and does not get a seat for next year it will be the end of his career as an F1 driver as when Russell wins F2 he too joins the queue as well.


Listening to Toto I'd say getting out of Marc would be a huge error for Ocon. I think if he waits it out he's got a better than a 50/50 shot of a Merc ride for 2020.

I agree. Bottas has, up to now, only had to perform at or above the level of Raikkonen. With Charles in the lineup at Ferrari next year, Valteri may be exposed somewhat as being an area where Mercedes can improve.

Hard as it may be, Ocon is attached to Mercedes and he should wait it out. They are a top team and they are saying things that suggest that they see potential in him. I suppose they didn't realize that those other seats would dry up but I still think they should have just signed him to race alongside Hamilton in 2019. Bottas gives them the perfect #2 but I think they do need to start considering a succession plan to protect themselves in case Lewis leaves the team in 2021.


Everyone with backing is getting a drive except Mercedes sponsored drivers, he's going to end up like Wherlein or Paffett.

Look at Gasly, Redbull got him a gig out of F1 and the moment a seat was free he was brought in, Mercedes didn't believe enough in Ocon to bring him in when Rosberg left, for all the flak Ferrari get they have put Leclerc in the car with half a seasons experience.

So for the first time since the turn of the last century Ferrari promote an unknown talent in one of their cars and they’re deserving of considerable praise?

Red Bull have the testicular fortitude to give more youngsters a shot than ANY team I can remember. The biggest problem with them is too much turnover and lacking patience with some of their drivers. Outfits like Marussia only fielded as many drivers as they did because they were paid to do so by other teams who didn’t have seats for those drivers. We need a cap somother manufacturers enter their own teams so more of these guys get their chance.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Still it's part of a driver's skill set to read a situation, also yes in the dry Leclerc was quicker, in the wet unlike Ericsson, Leclerc made many mistakes.


That seems to be, much like aquaplaning, only really put at the drivers door depending on who it is otherwise we tend to read things like the 'pit wall have all the information' etc.. when it comes to drivers following instructions. And was it experience or skills from Marcus or was it simply doing the opposite to what the team said Leclerc ahead was going to do? Did Marcus float the idea of staying out or was it the team?

I can forgive mistakes when your teams put you in strife and you're trying to make up for it tbh.

The track was merely damp so why you fetch the lottery of aquaplaning into it I don't know?

I know this because Ericsson specifically said it, like Leclerc they called him in but Ericsson chose to stay out, that you can put down to experience not the driving itself.

However Leclerc's off track excursion and spin which Ericsson avoided is solely on him, in those conditions Ericsson drove better, so overall Ericsson beat him fair and square in my book.

In respect to Leclerc himself he said he was not happy how he drove in the tricky conditions and he needs to improve.


I was mentioning aquaplaning along with how a driver should respond to a strategy call from the pitwall as another example of something that seems to be treated differently depending on who the driver is rather than talking specifically about Charles spins being aquaplaning, they weren't.

I haven't seen Ericsson's comments other than the ones I posted so a link would be helpful if he said something different elsewhere. And yes Charles excursions are on him, I never claimed otherwise much like not I'm not claiming Ericsson didn't win fair and square.

Fair enough, would you take my word that Ericsson made his own call because I don't rate Ericsson and believe Leclerc is far superior, I was just correcting for accuracy?


Happy to take your word, poker. It makes sense for Marcus to do the opposite of Charles in that scenario so I can believe he made the call himself as it doesn't really benefit him to just follow suit.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:17 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
That seems to be, much like aquaplaning, only really put at the drivers door depending on who it is otherwise we tend to read things like the 'pit wall have all the information' etc.. when it comes to drivers following instructions. And was it experience or skills from Marcus or was it simply doing the opposite to what the team said Leclerc ahead was going to do? Did Marcus float the idea of staying out or was it the team?

I can forgive mistakes when your teams put you in strife and you're trying to make up for it tbh.

The track was merely damp so why you fetch the lottery of aquaplaning into it I don't know?

I know this because Ericsson specifically said it, like Leclerc they called him in but Ericsson chose to stay out, that you can put down to experience not the driving itself.

However Leclerc's off track excursion and spin which Ericsson avoided is solely on him, in those conditions Ericsson drove better, so overall Ericsson beat him fair and square in my book.

In respect to Leclerc himself he said he was not happy how he drove in the tricky conditions and he needs to improve.


I was mentioning aquaplaning along with how a driver should respond to a strategy call from the pitwall as another example of something that seems to be treated differently depending on who the driver is rather than talking specifically about Charles spins being aquaplaning, they weren't.

I haven't seen Ericsson's comments other than the ones I posted so a link would be helpful if he said something different elsewhere. And yes Charles excursions are on him, I never claimed otherwise much like not I'm not claiming Ericsson didn't win fair and square.

Fair enough, would you take my word that Ericsson made his own call because I don't rate Ericsson and believe Leclerc is far superior, I was just correcting for accuracy?


Happy to take your word, poker. It makes sense for Marcus to do the opposite of Charles in that scenario so I can believe he made the call himself as it doesn't really benefit him to just follow suit.

No it wasn't the case of doing the opposite to beat Leclerc, it was just a case of him judging the situation.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:20 pm 
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How do folks think Gasly rates in relation to these three?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:23 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
How do folks think Gasly rates in relation to these three?

Impossible to say.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
How do folks think Gasly rates in relation to these three?

Impossible to say.


Yeah, to me he his also the biggest unknown among the youngsters. Next season will be interesting for seeing Leclerc and Gasly fighting at the front end alone (if Red Bull will be strong enough, that is).


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:16 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
How do folks think Gasly rates in relation to these three?

Impossible to say.

Yeah, to me he his also the biggest unknown among the youngsters. Next season will be interesting for seeing Leclerc and Gasly fighting at the front end alone (if Red Bull will be strong enough, that is).

Next season I fully expect Verstappen to beat Gasly quite badly. If he doesn't, that will say a lot about how strong Gasly is.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:46 am 
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Verstappen is undoubtedly fast, his car control is exceptional as is his belief in himself... Unfortunately he is not very bright... His difficulty in accepting responsibility for his actions and his inability to keep his mouth shut are evidence of continuing immaturity. He wont win anything until he grows up, unless Red Bull give him the same car advantage that they gave Vettel.

Leclerc has impressed in every series including F1, however, so have many others who have failed at the top level, just look at Vandoorne. However, by the end of next season, I fully expect him to be beating Vettel regularly. Alonso would have been champion last year and this year had he been in the Ferrari.

Ocon has matched Perez who, frankly, looked out of his depth against Button. He's yet to show the kind of X Factor that marks out the next big thing. Having said that he deserves his place on the grid.

As for the new kids on the block, give them a chance to settle in before crucifying them

So as of now Verstappen > Ocon > Leclerc, by the end of next season things could be different.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:19 am 
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Battle Far wrote:
Verstappen is undoubtedly fast, his car control is exceptional as is his belief in himself... Unfortunately he is not very bright... His difficulty in accepting responsibility for his actions and his inability to keep his mouth shut are evidence of continuing immaturity. He wont win anything until he grows up, unless Red Bull give him the same car advantage that they gave Vettel.

Leclerc has impressed in every series including F1, however, so have many others who have failed at the top level, just look at Vandoorne. However, by the end of next season, I fully expect him to be beating Vettel regularly. Alonso would have been champion last year and this year had he been in the Ferrari.

Ocon has matched Perez who, frankly, looked out of his depth against Button. He's yet to show the kind of X Factor that marks out the next big thing. Having said that he deserves his place on the grid.

As for the new kids on the block, give them a chance to settle in before crucifying them

So as of now Verstappen > Ocon > Leclerc, by the end of next season things could be different.


Perez basically matched Button once he got his feet under the table.


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