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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I'm going to rephrase this into a question rather than an assertion. The question is; what happens to Sebastian Vettel if Leclerc proves to have the upper hand in the matchup?

It's a good question. With the amount of money that Vettel gets paid, losing to his teammate on pace/performance would be catastrophic to his career. It would almost guarantee that his time with Ferrari would come to an end after his contract is up. They won't pay him top dollar to be a #2 and he isn't wired to play second fiddle anyway. It might also spell the end to his time driving in the top cars (and potentially even the end of his F1 career in the most extreme of scenarios).

There are really only two top cars in F1 currently - Mercedes and Ferrari. Washing out at Ferrari in defeat would basically eliminate any chance of a Mercedes drive. It would mean that Ferrari will back Charles and that Hamilton will probably stay at Merc or if he retires, Max would likely be brought in to replace him. Renault have already signed Daniel so they won't be in the picture should their car come good. Ironically, Red Bull might be where he ends up if Max abandons ship and leaves a vacancy. Aside from that possibility, maybe McLaren might have an outside chance if they improve a little. It all becomes very uncertain doesn't it?

Honestly, I can't imagine that Vettel is happy about this signing at all. He knew where he stood against Kimi and now there is a complete unknown introduced to the equation. Charles is young and ambitious and will see Vettel as his main target. Vettel wants to be able to focus on beating Lewis without having to worry about an internal challenge. This is the last thing he needed (or wanted). His role as Ferrari's #1 wheelman (which was totally secure alongside Kimi) has come under threat here. We've seen in recent years with Alonso that no matter how good you are, you only get so many opportunities with the top teams. If Vettel washes out here, he might not get another chance, 4 WDCs or not.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The dislike that reeks out of this post, if the Ferrari continues on this path of development means Leclerc will be beating Hamilton as well but I guess your dislike of Vettel did not even let you figure that out.

But somehow you are in Vettel's head to know he's not happy about it, you believe any team will pass on a 4WDC.

I think there is a bit of a logic fail here when you can't see the difference between beating someone with the benefit of a superior car as opposed to having the same car.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:25 pm 
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So Kimi was let go by Ferrari at Monza and then started asking around and now joins Sauber in a pure driver role although he will do their PR no harm at all with his legacy and history in the sport. So the chances of Kimi obeying any team orders now are slim and none and slim is looking to leave town ;).

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/raik ... -/3175857/

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:18 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?

I don't think it is a fact, no. Otherwise there would never be variations in performance and that's clearly not the case. Kimi's speed against Vettel has fluctuated quite significantly in their time together, as did Barrichello's against Schumacher. If a driver isn't comfortable in the car, then he's not going to be able to extract the same speed he would if he was totally hooked up.

As for being fair to Daniel, I don't think that's really relevant. Everyone acknowledges that he beat Vettel, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be able to analyse Vettel's performance independently of that. It doesn't take anything away from Ricciardo's own good performances and it shouldn't be taboo to discuss it.

I don't think anyone's ignoring their relative performances that year. But I also think it would be foolish to completely ignore what senior members of Red Bull have said about Vettel. These are people with a wealth of data to back up their opinions, in a sport that's completely driven by that data, so if they say that what we see isn't the complete picture then I think that needs to be taken onboard. Aside from anything else you'd have to wonder what their motivation is.

Much has been written, by more than one journalist, about how the Red Bulls of that era needed a counter-intuitive style to take full advantage of, which Vettel was able to do but which Webber struggled with. So it's not illogical to imagine that it might take Vettel time to "unlearn" that technique fully and adapt his driving to get the best out of very different cars. Maybe that makes him bad at adapting, but it's not completely out there.

Doesn't mean any of the above is gospel, either, but there's enough to support the idea that Vettel wasn't performing to his best and suffered accordingly in 2014

Here's where it's important to be specific. What exactly have these Red Bull staffers said that you believe provides backing for the notion that Vettel is actually faster than Daniel despite what happened in 2014? I think people are clutching at straws to be honest but I'm open to any meaningful evidence if you have it.

Well to be clear I've not said that anyone at Red Bull has specifically stated Vettel is faster than Daniel - as far as I'm aware no direct claim on that score has been made. But they have said that Vettel was severely off-form in 2014 and most recently of course Horner said Vettel was the best driver they've ever had, or words to that effect. In 2014 Horner said:

"It is a combination of several things," Auto Bild Motorsport and Reuters reported Horner as saying. "First, when you have fought for the title for five years, it does wear you out a little bit, but that is not the fundamental problem. The way Sebastian brought out those extra tenths from the car in recent years was quite unique. He is very sensitive to the behaviour of the car, especially when braking."

Horner believes Vettel has "lost part of his feeling for the car", adding that his star driver used to drive "like a ballerina, dancing on the throttle and the brakes".

"The driveability was really bad [at the start of this year], so Seb could not look after the tyres in the way that he always has done. His pace in Hungary showed he is getting the feeling for the car back again."


Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... epqs1ob.99


You have to imagine the above would have some impact on his speed - the difficult bit is quantifying how much exactly. Whether he would beat Ricciardo or not is pretty much subjective, just as it is subjective to say who would be quicker in the same car out of Vettel and Hamilton (which has also been discussed by some). But the point is that Vettel was clearly off-form in 2014 so they wouldn't necessarily replicate that if he paired with Ricciardo again.

For me, the quote you provided simply shows that Horner feels that Vettel strugggled to adapt to the car. The fact is that Ricciardo also had to adapt to the new car. In fact he had to adapt to a new team and car. I'm not sure why you think that this somehow constitutes an excuse for Sebastian. As for the bolded bit, it's not really subjective to say that Ricciardo would be quicker as they were teamed together and Ricciardo was quicker. That is objective. It's subjective to say that you think the reason he was quicker is down to Sebastian having an unusual level of struggle to adapt ( a struggle which apparently vanished the next year despite his move to a different team).

As for Horner saying that Vettel was the best Red Bull driver of all time; that has already been discussed. Horner was not asked about performance and so the guy who won 39 races and 4 titles might simply be the best of all time based on CV. I searched and I cannot find any commentary by anyone at Red Bull about whether or not Vettel is quicker than Daniel or a better driver. All we have is their season together (which clearly indicates that Daniel is quicker).


Ricciardo has recently said that he liked the balance of the 2014 car out of all the Red Bulls he has driven so it was probably a perfect storm in 2014 that caused the relative drubbing although Ricciardo has shown enough in his whole career to suggest he could have beaten Vettel anyway if they were both equally as happy with the car. Vettel has generally been happy with the Ferraris he has been given especially the latest one. However I have never been totally convinced by Vettel although I concede on his day he can be a speed demon and one can't fault his 100% hard driving effort in the races.

Seeing Kimi however and Webber previously peg him back in flowing tracks makes me think that Vettel is a bit of an apex braking specialist more than a great all rounder and his long range racing line placement may not be optimal. 2019 will tell us how good Vettel and LeClerc both really are. I think LeClerc will beat him 60/40 or even 70/30 because if there is one thing he is good at it is racing line placement.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:45 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.


Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

I do believe the 2014 season is open to question but not because of what some said that Vettel deliberately under performed, I mean did he not question or refuse a team order to let Ricciardo by, that would be manna in heaven for a driver looking to sack the season.


Vettel did not deliberately under perform...no driver would ever do that. 2014 was a bit of an anomaly, like 2011 for Hamilton - mistakes, reliability issues and bad luck combine to result in a poor performance on the whole, and their teammates easily outperformed them. To be fair, we had glimpses of greatness even in those down years (they finished in the top 5 after all), so it is pretty clear that the overall poor results and final abysmal standings were an anomaly in comparison to other years.

I honestly hope that Charles is not being over-hyped, although I am pretty sure he is. He hasn't got Max's mentality, so I am not sure that all the hype won't ill-affect him. It is almost better to come in an underdog and surprise everyone than to arrive with such over-blown expectations. Nonetheless, stable minds will prevail and if he just continues to do his best, he'll be fine. Kimi is going to absolutely flourish at Sauber - betcha!

The difference in 2011 was that Hamilton was still thrashing Button in qualifying which goes back to what Sandman was saying about a driver still having his basic speed, it was just the races that were a problem, crashing into other cars and the tyres themselves that were made out of cheese and didn't encourage the hard driving to which Hamilton had been accustomed to, which at that time was obviously a flaw in Hamilton's driving.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I'm going to rephrase this into a question rather than an assertion. The question is; what happens to Sebastian Vettel if Leclerc proves to have the upper hand in the matchup?

It's a good question. With the amount of money that Vettel gets paid, losing to his teammate on pace/performance would be catastrophic to his career. It would almost guarantee that his time with Ferrari would come to an end after his contract is up. They won't pay him top dollar to be a #2 and he isn't wired to play second fiddle anyway. It might also spell the end to his time driving in the top cars (and potentially even the end of his F1 career in the most extreme of scenarios).

There are really only two top cars in F1 currently - Mercedes and Ferrari. Washing out at Ferrari in defeat would basically eliminate any chance of a Mercedes drive. It would mean that Ferrari will back Charles and that Hamilton will probably stay at Merc or if he retires, Max would likely be brought in to replace him. Renault have already signed Daniel so they won't be in the picture should their car come good. Ironically, Red Bull might be where he ends up if Max abandons ship and leaves a vacancy. Aside from that possibility, maybe McLaren might have an outside chance if they improve a little. It all becomes very uncertain doesn't it?

Honestly, I can't imagine that Vettel is happy about this signing at all. He knew where he stood against Kimi and now there is a complete unknown introduced to the equation. Charles is young and ambitious and will see Vettel as his main target. Vettel wants to be able to focus on beating Lewis without having to worry about an internal challenge. This is the last thing he needed (or wanted). His role as Ferrari's #1 wheelman (which was totally secure alongside Kimi) has come under threat here. We've seen in recent years with Alonso that no matter how good you are, you only get so many opportunities with the top teams. If Vettel washes out here, he might not get another chance, 4 WDCs or not.

Same for every top driver, to be fair. Hamilton faced the same risk when paired with Bottas, as did Vettel when paired with Kimi. If he's good enough, he'll come out on top. Not sure I'd agree that being beaten by Leclerc would in any way spell the end of his career. It wouldn't help his reputation, that's for sure, but there are any number of teams who would still fight to get a four times WDC in their car, and I'm including Red Bull and McLaren in that. Mercedes probably not, as they still have Hamilton anyway.

Still think this Leclerc expectation is all somewhat premature. To hear some he's already beaten Vettel and he hasn't actually sat in the car yet

Leclerc is different because there is no way of knowing how fast he is, with Bottas we had a performance guide to show he should be slower than Hamilton, I recall at the time that some were not overly thrilled with the signing of Bottas, he wasn't seen as a threat to Hamilton.

Vettel facing a risk against Kimi is debateable given that the bigger risk would have been a second season against Ricciardo.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:20 pm 
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mas wrote:
So Kimi was let go by Ferrari at Monza and then started asking around and now joins Sauber in a pure driver role although he will do their PR no harm at all with his legacy and history in the sport. So the chances of Kimi obeying any team orders now are slim and none and slim is looking to leave town ;).

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/raik ... -/3175857/

Which all backs up the impression that in Monza Kimi seemed to be racing for himself.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:22 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I'm going to rephrase this into a question rather than an assertion. The question is; what happens to Sebastian Vettel if Leclerc proves to have the upper hand in the matchup?

It's a good question. With the amount of money that Vettel gets paid, losing to his teammate on pace/performance would be catastrophic to his career. It would almost guarantee that his time with Ferrari would come to an end after his contract is up. They won't pay him top dollar to be a #2 and he isn't wired to play second fiddle anyway. It might also spell the end to his time driving in the top cars (and potentially even the end of his F1 career in the most extreme of scenarios).

There are really only two top cars in F1 currently - Mercedes and Ferrari. Washing out at Ferrari in defeat would basically eliminate any chance of a Mercedes drive. It would mean that Ferrari will back Charles and that Hamilton will probably stay at Merc or if he retires, Max would likely be brought in to replace him. Renault have already signed Daniel so they won't be in the picture should their car come good. Ironically, Red Bull might be where he ends up if Max abandons ship and leaves a vacancy. Aside from that possibility, maybe McLaren might have an outside chance if they improve a little. It all becomes very uncertain doesn't it?

Honestly, I can't imagine that Vettel is happy about this signing at all. He knew where he stood against Kimi and now there is a complete unknown introduced to the equation. Charles is young and ambitious and will see Vettel as his main target. Vettel wants to be able to focus on beating Lewis without having to worry about an internal challenge. This is the last thing he needed (or wanted). His role as Ferrari's #1 wheelman (which was totally secure alongside Kimi) has come under threat here. We've seen in recent years with Alonso that no matter how good you are, you only get so many opportunities with the top teams. If Vettel washes out here, he might not get another chance, 4 WDCs or not.

Same for every top driver, to be fair. Hamilton faced the same risk when paired with Bottas, as did Vettel when paired with Kimi. If he's good enough, he'll come out on top. Not sure I'd agree that being beaten by Leclerc would in any way spell the end of his career. It wouldn't help his reputation, that's for sure, but there are any number of teams who would still fight to get a four times WDC in their car, and I'm including Red Bull and McLaren in that. Mercedes probably not, as they still have Hamilton anyway.

Still think this Leclerc expectation is all somewhat premature. To hear some he's already beaten Vettel and he hasn't actually sat in the car yet

Leclerc is different because there is no way of knowing how fast he is, with Bottas we had a performance guide to show he should be slower than Hamilton, I recall at the time that some were not overly thrilled with the signing of Bottas, he wasn't seen as a threat to Hamilton.

Vettel facing a risk against Kimi is debateable given that the bigger risk would have been a second season against Ricciardo.

I don't really agree. Kimi got comprehensively beaten by Alonso and if Vettel hadn't done the same then his reputation would have been damaged IMO, more so than if he'd failed to beat Ricciardo again, since what that would have done would have enhanced Ricciardo's.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:41 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I'm going to rephrase this into a question rather than an assertion. The question is; what happens to Sebastian Vettel if Leclerc proves to have the upper hand in the matchup?

It's a good question. With the amount of money that Vettel gets paid, losing to his teammate on pace/performance would be catastrophic to his career. It would almost guarantee that his time with Ferrari would come to an end after his contract is up. They won't pay him top dollar to be a #2 and he isn't wired to play second fiddle anyway. It might also spell the end to his time driving in the top cars (and potentially even the end of his F1 career in the most extreme of scenarios).

There are really only two top cars in F1 currently - Mercedes and Ferrari. Washing out at Ferrari in defeat would basically eliminate any chance of a Mercedes drive. It would mean that Ferrari will back Charles and that Hamilton will probably stay at Merc or if he retires, Max would likely be brought in to replace him. Renault have already signed Daniel so they won't be in the picture should their car come good. Ironically, Red Bull might be where he ends up if Max abandons ship and leaves a vacancy. Aside from that possibility, maybe McLaren might have an outside chance if they improve a little. It all becomes very uncertain doesn't it?

Honestly, I can't imagine that Vettel is happy about this signing at all. He knew where he stood against Kimi and now there is a complete unknown introduced to the equation. Charles is young and ambitious and will see Vettel as his main target. Vettel wants to be able to focus on beating Lewis without having to worry about an internal challenge. This is the last thing he needed (or wanted). His role as Ferrari's #1 wheelman (which was totally secure alongside Kimi) has come under threat here. We've seen in recent years with Alonso that no matter how good you are, you only get so many opportunities with the top teams. If Vettel washes out here, he might not get another chance, 4 WDCs or not.

Same for every top driver, to be fair. Hamilton faced the same risk when paired with Bottas, as did Vettel when paired with Kimi. If he's good enough, he'll come out on top. Not sure I'd agree that being beaten by Leclerc would in any way spell the end of his career. It wouldn't help his reputation, that's for sure, but there are any number of teams who would still fight to get a four times WDC in their car, and I'm including Red Bull and McLaren in that. Mercedes probably not, as they still have Hamilton anyway.

Still think this Leclerc expectation is all somewhat premature. To hear some he's already beaten Vettel and he hasn't actually sat in the car yet

Leclerc is different because there is no way of knowing how fast he is, with Bottas we had a performance guide to show he should be slower than Hamilton, I recall at the time that some were not overly thrilled with the signing of Bottas, he wasn't seen as a threat to Hamilton.

Vettel facing a risk against Kimi is debateable given that the bigger risk would have been a second season against Ricciardo.

I don't really agree. Kimi got comprehensively beaten by Alonso and if Vettel hadn't done the same then his reputation would have been damaged IMO, more so than if he'd failed to beat Ricciardo again, since what that would have done would have enhanced Ricciardo's.

I think you are looking at it wrong because then an even bigger risk would be going against someone like Ericsson and losing to him, would going up against Ericsson be seen as a risk, I would always see the bigger risk as going up against someone that people might consider might have a chance of beating you?

The way you pan it out is like basically any different driver Vettel goes up against is a risk.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:41 pm 
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mas wrote:
So Kimi was let go by Ferrari at Monza and then started asking around and now joins Sauber in a pure driver role although he will do their PR no harm at all with his legacy and history in the sport. So the chances of Kimi obeying any team orders now are slim and none and slim is looking to leave town ;).

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/raik ... -/3175857/

I'd imagine since Kimi and Vettel are quite good friends and Kimi has no real chance at the title he would obey any team order Ferrari give him, but I guess we will see if the time comes.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'm going to rephrase this into a question rather than an assertion. The question is; what happens to Sebastian Vettel if Leclerc proves to have the upper hand in the matchup?

It's a good question. With the amount of money that Vettel gets paid, losing to his teammate on pace/performance would be catastrophic to his career. It would almost guarantee that his time with Ferrari would come to an end after his contract is up. They won't pay him top dollar to be a #2 and he isn't wired to play second fiddle anyway. It might also spell the end to his time driving in the top cars (and potentially even the end of his F1 career in the most extreme of scenarios).

There are really only two top cars in F1 currently - Mercedes and Ferrari. Washing out at Ferrari in defeat would basically eliminate any chance of a Mercedes drive. It would mean that Ferrari will back Charles and that Hamilton will probably stay at Merc or if he retires, Max would likely be brought in to replace him. Renault have already signed Daniel so they won't be in the picture should their car come good. Ironically, Red Bull might be where he ends up if Max abandons ship and leaves a vacancy. Aside from that possibility, maybe McLaren might have an outside chance if they improve a little. It all becomes very uncertain doesn't it?

Honestly, I can't imagine that Vettel is happy about this signing at all. He knew where he stood against Kimi and now there is a complete unknown introduced to the equation. Charles is young and ambitious and will see Vettel as his main target. Vettel wants to be able to focus on beating Lewis without having to worry about an internal challenge. This is the last thing he needed (or wanted). His role as Ferrari's #1 wheelman (which was totally secure alongside Kimi) has come under threat here. We've seen in recent years with Alonso that no matter how good you are, you only get so many opportunities with the top teams. If Vettel washes out here, he might not get another chance, 4 WDCs or not.

Same for every top driver, to be fair. Hamilton faced the same risk when paired with Bottas, as did Vettel when paired with Kimi. If he's good enough, he'll come out on top. Not sure I'd agree that being beaten by Leclerc would in any way spell the end of his career. It wouldn't help his reputation, that's for sure, but there are any number of teams who would still fight to get a four times WDC in their car, and I'm including Red Bull and McLaren in that. Mercedes probably not, as they still have Hamilton anyway.

Still think this Leclerc expectation is all somewhat premature. To hear some he's already beaten Vettel and he hasn't actually sat in the car yet

Leclerc is different because there is no way of knowing how fast he is, with Bottas we had a performance guide to show he should be slower than Hamilton, I recall at the time that some were not overly thrilled with the signing of Bottas, he wasn't seen as a threat to Hamilton.

Vettel facing a risk against Kimi is debateable given that the bigger risk would have been a second season against Ricciardo.

I don't really agree. Kimi got comprehensively beaten by Alonso and if Vettel hadn't done the same then his reputation would have been damaged IMO, more so than if he'd failed to beat Ricciardo again, since what that would have done would have enhanced Ricciardo's.

I think you are looking at it wrong because then an even bigger risk would be going against someone like Ericsson and losing to him, would going up against Ericsson be seen as a risk, I would always see the bigger risk as going up against someone that people might consider might have a chance of beating you?

The way you pan it out is like basically any different driver Vettel goes up against is a risk.

no, what I mean is that Ricciardo had already beaten Vettel, so if it happened again it just would have cemented Ric as the better driver. But Kimi had been heavily beaten by Alonso, so if Vettel failed to replicate that then he would have looked poorer


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:48 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mas wrote:
So Kimi was let go by Ferrari at Monza and then started asking around and now joins Sauber in a pure driver role although he will do their PR no harm at all with his legacy and history in the sport. So the chances of Kimi obeying any team orders now are slim and none and slim is looking to leave town ;).

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/raik ... -/3175857/

I'd imagine since Kimi and Vettel are quite good friends and Kimi has no real chance at the title he would obey any team order Ferrari give him, but I guess we will see if the time comes.

I'm pretty sure there are big win bonuses at all the top teams like Ferrari I.e. at least a million plus Kimi can't have enjoyed all the neglect the team have given him in terms of strategy plus he likes bathing in the aura of being Ferrari's last Champion. Sure he's friendly with Vettel but then he's friendly with all the drivers. If it is true that he doesn't have to obey team orders now he's been let go then Ferrari will have to literally pay him extra now to obey team orders. Ferrari's attitude at Monza seemed hands off so if Vettel wants this WDC he has to go grab it himself and beat everyone in the last few races as I suspect he may not get a better chance at Ferrari going forward. Moment of truth !

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:07 pm 
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mas wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mas wrote:
So Kimi was let go by Ferrari at Monza and then started asking around and now joins Sauber in a pure driver role although he will do their PR no harm at all with his legacy and history in the sport. So the chances of Kimi obeying any team orders now are slim and none and slim is looking to leave town ;).

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/raik ... -/3175857/

I'd imagine since Kimi and Vettel are quite good friends and Kimi has no real chance at the title he would obey any team order Ferrari give him, but I guess we will see if the time comes.

I'm pretty sure there are big win bonuses at all the top teams like Ferrari I.e. at least a million plus Kimi can't have enjoyed all the neglect the team have given him in terms of strategy plus he likes bathing in the aura of being Ferrari's last Champion. Sure he's friendly with Vettel but then he's friendly with all the drivers. If it is true that he doesn't have to obey team orders now he's been let go then Ferrari will have to literally pay him extra now to obey team orders. Ferrari's attitude at Monza seemed hands off so if Vettel wants this WDC he has to go grab it himself and beat everyone in the last few races as I suspect he may not get a better chance at Ferrari going forward. Moment of truth !

Why would that be true? He would be bound by the terms of his contract until it ended, the fact that he's not getting another contract wouldn't change that so if he had to follow team orders before he would have to now and I can't imagine any driver on the grid has a contract that says they don't have to follow team orders.

I agree Ferrari have been very reluctant to issue any team orders so far this year, I can't imagine that will continue going forward though.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:

Vettel did not deliberately under perform...no driver would ever do that. 2014 was a bit of an anomaly, like 2011 for Hamilton - mistakes, reliability issues and bad luck combine to result in a poor performance on the whole, and their teammates easily outperformed them. To be fair, we had glimpses of greatness even in those down years (they finished in the top 5 after all), so it is pretty clear that the overall poor results and final abysmal standings were an anomaly in comparison to other years.

I honestly hope that Charles is not being over-hyped, although I am pretty sure he is. He hasn't got Max's mentality, so I am not sure that all the hype won't ill-affect him. It is almost better to come in an underdog and surprise everyone than to arrive with such over-blown expectations. Nonetheless, stable minds will prevail and if he just continues to do his best, he'll be fine. Kimi is going to absolutely flourish at Sauber - betcha!

The difference in 2011 was that Hamilton was still thrashing Button in qualifying which goes back to what Sandman was saying about a driver still having his basic speed, it was just the races that were a problem, crashing into other cars and the tyres themselves that were made out of cheese and didn't encourage the hard driving to which Hamilton had been accustomed to, which at that time was obviously a flaw in Hamilton's driving.


Yep. But Hamilton was still able to match Button on wins. The head to head in 2 car finish was close. Overall, Hamilton's loss was less extensive.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mas wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mas wrote:
So Kimi was let go by Ferrari at Monza and then started asking around and now joins Sauber in a pure driver role although he will do their PR no harm at all with his legacy and history in the sport. So the chances of Kimi obeying any team orders now are slim and none and slim is looking to leave town ;).

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/raik ... -/3175857/

I'd imagine since Kimi and Vettel are quite good friends and Kimi has no real chance at the title he would obey any team order Ferrari give him, but I guess we will see if the time comes.

I'm pretty sure there are big win bonuses at all the top teams like Ferrari I.e. at least a million plus Kimi can't have enjoyed all the neglect the team have given him in terms of strategy plus he likes bathing in the aura of being Ferrari's last Champion. Sure he's friendly with Vettel but then he's friendly with all the drivers. If it is true that he doesn't have to obey team orders now he's been let go then Ferrari will have to literally pay him extra now to obey team orders. Ferrari's attitude at Monza seemed hands off so if Vettel wants this WDC he has to go grab it himself and beat everyone in the last few races as I suspect he may not get a better chance at Ferrari going forward. Moment of truth !

Why would that be true? He would be bound by the terms of his contract until it ended, the fact that he's not getting another contract wouldn't change that so if he had to follow team orders before he would have to now and I can't imagine any driver on the grid has a contract that says they don't have to follow team orders.

I agree Ferrari have been very reluctant to issue any team orders so far this year, I can't imagine that will continue going forward though.

It has been suggested that his current contract has that clause in it which Vettel may now be aware of and is putting a spin on.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/245 ... -raikkonen

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I'm going to rephrase this into a question rather than an assertion. The question is; what happens to Sebastian Vettel if Leclerc proves to have the upper hand in the matchup?

It's a good question. With the amount of money that Vettel gets paid, losing to his teammate on pace/performance would be catastrophic to his career. It would almost guarantee that his time with Ferrari would come to an end after his contract is up. They won't pay him top dollar to be a #2 and he isn't wired to play second fiddle anyway. It might also spell the end to his time driving in the top cars (and potentially even the end of his F1 career in the most extreme of scenarios).

There are really only two top cars in F1 currently - Mercedes and Ferrari. Washing out at Ferrari in defeat would basically eliminate any chance of a Mercedes drive. It would mean that Ferrari will back Charles and that Hamilton will probably stay at Merc or if he retires, Max would likely be brought in to replace him. Renault have already signed Daniel so they won't be in the picture should their car come good. Ironically, Red Bull might be where he ends up if Max abandons ship and leaves a vacancy. Aside from that possibility, maybe McLaren might have an outside chance if they improve a little. It all becomes very uncertain doesn't it?

Honestly, I can't imagine that Vettel is happy about this signing at all. He knew where he stood against Kimi and now there is a complete unknown introduced to the equation. Charles is young and ambitious and will see Vettel as his main target. Vettel wants to be able to focus on beating Lewis without having to worry about an internal challenge. This is the last thing he needed (or wanted). His role as Ferrari's #1 wheelman (which was totally secure alongside Kimi) has come under threat here. We've seen in recent years with Alonso that no matter how good you are, you only get so many opportunities with the top teams. If Vettel washes out here, he might not get another chance, 4 WDCs or not.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The dislike that reeks out of this post, if the Ferrari continues on this path of development means Leclerc will be beating Hamilton as well but I guess your dislike of Vettel did not even let you figure that out.

But somehow you are in Vettel's head to know he's not happy about it, you believe any team will pass on a 4WDC.


I actually like Vettel. Probably my 4th or 5th favorite driver out there currently. What part of this post has anything to do with disliking Vettel? Also, I'm fascinated to find out how you link this post to Leclerc beating Hamilton? Based on the string of emojis at the beginning of your post, you seem to really be upset by this for some reason but it's just a hypothetical scenario. "What happens if Sebastian loses to Charles"? The "if" being the key term. Try to relax bud.


I was laughing at your post as it is very funny and you didn't read my post to understand but just to reply, your scenario paints Leclerc beating Vettel, so was just extrapolating if the Ferrari is the same car like this season he'll be thrashing Hamilton as well how can you fail to grasp that?


So what if he thrashes Hamilton in the process? They aren’t driving the same car.

You are not making any sense man.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:42 pm 
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mas wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mas wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mas wrote:
So Kimi was let go by Ferrari at Monza and then started asking around and now joins Sauber in a pure driver role although he will do their PR no harm at all with his legacy and history in the sport. So the chances of Kimi obeying any team orders now are slim and none and slim is looking to leave town ;).

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/raik ... -/3175857/

I'd imagine since Kimi and Vettel are quite good friends and Kimi has no real chance at the title he would obey any team order Ferrari give him, but I guess we will see if the time comes.

I'm pretty sure there are big win bonuses at all the top teams like Ferrari I.e. at least a million plus Kimi can't have enjoyed all the neglect the team have given him in terms of strategy plus he likes bathing in the aura of being Ferrari's last Champion. Sure he's friendly with Vettel but then he's friendly with all the drivers. If it is true that he doesn't have to obey team orders now he's been let go then Ferrari will have to literally pay him extra now to obey team orders. Ferrari's attitude at Monza seemed hands off so if Vettel wants this WDC he has to go grab it himself and beat everyone in the last few races as I suspect he may not get a better chance at Ferrari going forward. Moment of truth !

Why would that be true? He would be bound by the terms of his contract until it ended, the fact that he's not getting another contract wouldn't change that so if he had to follow team orders before he would have to now and I can't imagine any driver on the grid has a contract that says they don't have to follow team orders.

I agree Ferrari have been very reluctant to issue any team orders so far this year, I can't imagine that will continue going forward though.

It has been suggested that his current contract has that clause in it which Vettel may now be aware of and is putting a spin on.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/245 ... -raikkonen

Yeah I can't imagine any driver has a clause that says if we don't renew your contract you can ignore our team orders. Sounds like nonsense to me.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Some classic Kimi in the drivers press conference highlights.

'And you're still passionate about racing, the fire is still..'
'No, I'm not actually', 'I'm going to spend 2 years there and not be happy'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzJicWmy8dA


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:09 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Same for every top driver, to be fair. Hamilton faced the same risk when paired with Bottas, as did Vettel when paired with Kimi. If he's good enough, he'll come out on top. Not sure I'd agree that being beaten by Leclerc would in any way spell the end of his career. It wouldn't help his reputation, that's for sure, but there are any number of teams who would still fight to get a four times WDC in their car, and I'm including Red Bull and McLaren in that. Mercedes probably not, as they still have Hamilton anyway.

Still think this Leclerc expectation is all somewhat premature. To hear some he's already beaten Vettel and he hasn't actually sat in the car yet

Leclerc is different because there is no way of knowing how fast he is, with Bottas we had a performance guide to show he should be slower than Hamilton, I recall at the time that some were not overly thrilled with the signing of Bottas, he wasn't seen as a threat to Hamilton.

Vettel facing a risk against Kimi is debateable given that the bigger risk would have been a second season against Ricciardo.

I don't really agree. Kimi got comprehensively beaten by Alonso and if Vettel hadn't done the same then his reputation would have been damaged IMO, more so than if he'd failed to beat Ricciardo again, since what that would have done would have enhanced Ricciardo's.

I think you are looking at it wrong because then an even bigger risk would be going against someone like Ericsson and losing to him, would going up against Ericsson be seen as a risk, I would always see the bigger risk as going up against someone that people might consider might have a chance of beating you?

The way you pan it out is like basically any different driver Vettel goes up against is a risk.

no, what I mean is that Ricciardo had already beaten Vettel, so if it happened again it just would have cemented Ric as the better driver. But Kimi had been heavily beaten by Alonso, so if Vettel failed to replicate that then he would have looked poorer

So you are kind of excepting that Vettel is not the best but beating Kimi showed he's still very good?

Kimi being the higher risk of Vettel's standing falling that bit more?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:14 am 
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aice wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:

Vettel did not deliberately under perform...no driver would ever do that. 2014 was a bit of an anomaly, like 2011 for Hamilton - mistakes, reliability issues and bad luck combine to result in a poor performance on the whole, and their teammates easily outperformed them. To be fair, we had glimpses of greatness even in those down years (they finished in the top 5 after all), so it is pretty clear that the overall poor results and final abysmal standings were an anomaly in comparison to other years.

I honestly hope that Charles is not being over-hyped, although I am pretty sure he is. He hasn't got Max's mentality, so I am not sure that all the hype won't ill-affect him. It is almost better to come in an underdog and surprise everyone than to arrive with such over-blown expectations. Nonetheless, stable minds will prevail and if he just continues to do his best, he'll be fine. Kimi is going to absolutely flourish at Sauber - betcha!

The difference in 2011 was that Hamilton was still thrashing Button in qualifying which goes back to what Sandman was saying about a driver still having his basic speed, it was just the races that were a problem, crashing into other cars and the tyres themselves that were made out of cheese and didn't encourage the hard driving to which Hamilton had been accustomed to, which at that time was obviously a flaw in Hamilton's driving.


Yep. But Hamilton was still able to match Button on wins. Head to head in 2 car was finish was close. Overall, Hamilton's loss was less extensive.

Yes that's what I was saying, the basic speed was still there unlike Vettel in 2014.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:37 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:07 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Leclerc is different because there is no way of knowing how fast he is, with Bottas we had a performance guide to show he should be slower than Hamilton, I recall at the time that some were not overly thrilled with the signing of Bottas, he wasn't seen as a threat to Hamilton.

Vettel facing a risk against Kimi is debateable given that the bigger risk would have been a second season against Ricciardo.

I don't really agree. Kimi got comprehensively beaten by Alonso and if Vettel hadn't done the same then his reputation would have been damaged IMO, more so than if he'd failed to beat Ricciardo again, since what that would have done would have enhanced Ricciardo's.

I think you are looking at it wrong because then an even bigger risk would be going against someone like Ericsson and losing to him, would going up against Ericsson be seen as a risk, I would always see the bigger risk as going up against someone that people might consider might have a chance of beating you?

The way you pan it out is like basically any different driver Vettel goes up against is a risk.

no, what I mean is that Ricciardo had already beaten Vettel, so if it happened again it just would have cemented Ric as the better driver. But Kimi had been heavily beaten by Alonso, so if Vettel failed to replicate that then he would have looked poorer

So you are kind of excepting that Vettel is not the best but beating Kimi showed he's still very good?

Kimi being the higher risk of Vettel's standing falling that bit more?

I thought we were talking about reputation and risk to it, not whether I think he's the best?

There's always a risk for any driver going up against someone new. If they get beaten by them, their reputation suffers (and the other's goes up). The size of that rise/fall is directly proportionate to how either driver was viewed before. Kimi had already taken a knock to his reputation, so if he'd beaten Vettel it would have led to a bigger knock for Vettel's. But getting beaten by a relatively unknown tends to elevate the rookie more than it does knock the established driver. Alonso's reputation didn't really suffer after getting beaten by an unknown Hamilton, because it was recognized during the year that Hamilton was a very good driver. Hamilton's reputation, OTOH, soared. And I think a similar thing may happen if Leclerc proves to be that good, although of course Vettel will always have that question mark of 2014 hanging over him so many would likely view that as further proof that he's not quite as good as others say he is. But if the battle is close, then I don't think Vettel's status would be negatively affected to a big degree.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:49 am 
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Just a couple of points discussed here that I'll throw my tuppence-worth in on:

Vettel's stock. Regardless of the other Ferrari driver, his stock would almost certainly rise f he were to win the WDC either this year of next. Whilst we have endless debate over whether Mercedes or Ferrari is the faster car, they are pretty closely matched in my view. On that basis, we are witnessing two 4x WDCs in a straight fight for that 5th title. Whoever takes it will see his stock rise, surely.

2014: I've expressed my view in this before. Vettel went from a very good Red Bull to a poorer one and, yes, struggled to adapt to that change. Riccardo went from a relatively poor Torro Rosso to a better Red Bull. For me, it would be easier to get to grips with a car that you can go faster in than one that you find is going slower (in terms of relative to the competition; from winning 4 straight titles to suddenly not as competitive at the top). Add in the change from the driving style unique to and exhaust-blown diffuser and I'd call Vettel's 2014 season an anomaly.

Just a footnote - as a Brit I tend to favour Hamilton over Vettel and I do believe that Hamilton is, overall, the better driver. However I will maintain that Vettel is a worthy opponent, a deserved 4x WDC and should he win this year, will acknowledge his effort in this and not put it down to the car.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:06 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Just a couple of points discussed here that I'll throw my tuppence-worth in on:

Vettel's stock. Regardless of the other Ferrari driver, his stock would almost certainly rise f he were to win the WDC either this year of next. Whilst we have endless debate over whether Mercedes or Ferrari is the faster car, they are pretty closely matched in my view. On that basis, we are witnessing two 4x WDCs in a straight fight for that 5th title. Whoever takes it will see his stock rise, surely.

2014: I've expressed my view in this before. Vettel went from a very good Red Bull to a poorer one and, yes, struggled to adapt to that change. Riccardo went from a relatively poor Torro Rosso to a better Red Bull. For me, it would be easier to get to grips with a car that you can go faster in than one that you find is going slower (in terms of relative to the competition; from winning 4 straight titles to suddenly not as competitive at the top). Add in the change from the driving style unique to and exhaust-blown diffuser and I'd call Vettel's 2014 season an anomaly.

Just a footnote - as a Brit I tend to favour Hamilton over Vettel and I do believe that Hamilton is, overall, the better driver. However I will maintain that Vettel is a worthy opponent, a deserved 4x WDC and should he win this year, will acknowledge his effort in this and not put it down to the car.

yep, agree with this. re: your footnote yes I agree that the cars are so closely matched this year that basically both drivers have had an equal opportunity for the title. Whoever wins it will be confident their (and their team's) performance made the difference


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:26 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't really agree. Kimi got comprehensively beaten by Alonso and if Vettel hadn't done the same then his reputation would have been damaged IMO, more so than if he'd failed to beat Ricciardo again, since what that would have done would have enhanced Ricciardo's.

I think you are looking at it wrong because then an even bigger risk would be going against someone like Ericsson and losing to him, would going up against Ericsson be seen as a risk, I would always see the bigger risk as going up against someone that people might consider might have a chance of beating you?

The way you pan it out is like basically any different driver Vettel goes up against is a risk.

no, what I mean is that Ricciardo had already beaten Vettel, so if it happened again it just would have cemented Ric as the better driver. But Kimi had been heavily beaten by Alonso, so if Vettel failed to replicate that then he would have looked poorer

So you are kind of excepting that Vettel is not the best but beating Kimi showed he's still very good?

Kimi being the higher risk of Vettel's standing falling that bit more?

I thought we were talking about reputation and risk to it, not whether I think he's the best?

There's always a risk for any driver going up against someone new. If they get beaten by them, their reputation suffers (and the other's goes up). The size of that rise/fall is directly proportionate to how either driver was viewed before. Kimi had already taken a knock to his reputation, so if he'd beaten Vettel it would have led to a bigger knock for Vettel's. But getting beaten by a relatively unknown tends to elevate the rookie more than it does knock the established driver. Alonso's reputation didn't really suffer after getting beaten by an unknown Hamilton, because it was recognized during the year that Hamilton was a very good driver. Hamilton's reputation, OTOH, soared. And I think a similar thing may happen if Leclerc proves to be that good, although of course Vettel will always have that question mark of 2014 hanging over him so many would likely view that as further proof that he's not quite as good as others say he is. But if the battle is close, then I don't think Vettel's status would be negatively affected to a big degree.

In respect to Vettel his reputation surely has to be to be seen as being up there with the best and not be out performed by a teammate, of course any new teammate has to be viewed as a risk, but who is more likely to beat Vettel, a driver that beat him before or Kimi who got beat easily by Alonso and got matched by Massa?

If you are excepting that some other drivers are better than Vettel than I can see why you would view a driver that beat him before as less risk, Kimi only represented a risk of him falling further down the pecking order.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:37 am 
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Zoue wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Just a couple of points discussed here that I'll throw my tuppence-worth in on:

Vettel's stock. Regardless of the other Ferrari driver, his stock would almost certainly rise f he were to win the WDC either this year of next. Whilst we have endless debate over whether Mercedes or Ferrari is the faster car, they are pretty closely matched in my view. On that basis, we are witnessing two 4x WDCs in a straight fight for that 5th title. Whoever takes it will see his stock rise, surely.

2014: I've expressed my view in this before. Vettel went from a very good Red Bull to a poorer one and, yes, struggled to adapt to that change. Riccardo went from a relatively poor Torro Rosso to a better Red Bull. For me, it would be easier to get to grips with a car that you can go faster in than one that you find is going slower (in terms of relative to the competition; from winning 4 straight titles to suddenly not as competitive at the top). Add in the change from the driving style unique to and exhaust-blown diffuser and I'd call Vettel's 2014 season an anomaly.

Just a footnote - as a Brit I tend to favour Hamilton over Vettel and I do believe that Hamilton is, overall, the better driver. However I will maintain that Vettel is a worthy opponent, a deserved 4x WDC and should he win this year, will acknowledge his effort in this and not put it down to the car.

yep, agree with this. re: your footnote yes I agree that the cars are so closely matched this year that basically both drivers have had an equal opportunity for the title. Whoever wins it will be confident their (and their team's) performance made the difference

I think the relative performances of the cars is debatable, the Ferrari looks faster more often than not.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:55 am 
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pokerman wrote:
There's always a risk for any driver going up against someone new. If they get beaten by them, their reputation suffers (and the other's goes up). The size of that rise/fall is directly proportionate to how either driver was viewed before. Kimi had already taken a knock to his reputation, so if he'd beaten Vettel it would have led to a bigger knock for Vettel's. But getting beaten by a relatively unknown tends to elevate the rookie more than it does knock the established driver. Alonso's reputation didn't really suffer after getting beaten by an unknown Hamilton, because it was recognized during the year that Hamilton was a very good driver. Hamilton's reputation, OTOH, soared. And I think a similar thing may happen if Leclerc proves to be that good, although of course Vettel will always have that question mark of 2014 hanging over him so many would likely view that as further proof that he's not quite as good as others say he is. But if the battle is close, then I don't think Vettel's status would be negatively affected to a big degree.
In respect to Vettel his reputation surely has to be to be seen as being up there with the best and not be out performed by a teammate, of course any new teammate has to be viewed as a risk, but who is more likely to beat Vettel, a driver that beat him before or Kimi who got beat easily by Alonso and got matched by Massa?

If you are excepting that some other drivers are better than Vettel than I can see why you would view a driver that beat him before as less risk, Kimi only represented a risk of him falling further down the pecking order.


Why all the negatitity, isn't there an opportunity also? To have a young teammate with a hype surrounding, if you consider all changes as risks, how can you change team like Vettel have done?
Win races in Toro Rosso, Red Bull, Ferrari, with both Renault Engine and Ferrari? Multiple youngest ever..


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:57 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think you are looking at it wrong because then an even bigger risk would be going against someone like Ericsson and losing to him, would going up against Ericsson be seen as a risk, I would always see the bigger risk as going up against someone that people might consider might have a chance of beating you?

The way you pan it out is like basically any different driver Vettel goes up against is a risk.

no, what I mean is that Ricciardo had already beaten Vettel, so if it happened again it just would have cemented Ric as the better driver. But Kimi had been heavily beaten by Alonso, so if Vettel failed to replicate that then he would have looked poorer

So you are kind of excepting that Vettel is not the best but beating Kimi showed he's still very good?

Kimi being the higher risk of Vettel's standing falling that bit more?

I thought we were talking about reputation and risk to it, not whether I think he's the best?

There's always a risk for any driver going up against someone new. If they get beaten by them, their reputation suffers (and the other's goes up). The size of that rise/fall is directly proportionate to how either driver was viewed before. Kimi had already taken a knock to his reputation, so if he'd beaten Vettel it would have led to a bigger knock for Vettel's. But getting beaten by a relatively unknown tends to elevate the rookie more than it does knock the established driver. Alonso's reputation didn't really suffer after getting beaten by an unknown Hamilton, because it was recognized during the year that Hamilton was a very good driver. Hamilton's reputation, OTOH, soared. And I think a similar thing may happen if Leclerc proves to be that good, although of course Vettel will always have that question mark of 2014 hanging over him so many would likely view that as further proof that he's not quite as good as others say he is. But if the battle is close, then I don't think Vettel's status would be negatively affected to a big degree.

In respect to Vettel his reputation surely has to be to be seen as being up there with the best and not be out performed by a teammate, of course any new teammate has to be viewed as a risk, but who is more likely to beat Vettel, a driver that beat him before or Kimi who got beat easily by Alonso and got matched by Massa?

If you are excepting that some other drivers are better than Vettel than I can see why you would view a driver that beat him before as less risk, Kimi only represented a risk of him falling further down the pecking order.

No, I think you are missing the point of what I'm saying. Or I'm explaining it very badly.

Whatever I've written is a generalization. It does not represent my own views on Vettel or his performances. I'm putting hypotheticals out there to explain what I feel would be the impact upon his reputation were certain events to happen. I'm not saying those events will happen. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

E.g. if Kimi were to have beaten him, then his stock would have dropped. But Kimi didn't and that doesn't mean I think Kimi would, clearly.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Just a couple of points discussed here that I'll throw my tuppence-worth in on:

Vettel's stock. Regardless of the other Ferrari driver, his stock would almost certainly rise f he were to win the WDC either this year of next. Whilst we have endless debate over whether Mercedes or Ferrari is the faster car, they are pretty closely matched in my view. On that basis, we are witnessing two 4x WDCs in a straight fight for that 5th title. Whoever takes it will see his stock rise, surely.

2014: I've expressed my view in this before. Vettel went from a very good Red Bull to a poorer one and, yes, struggled to adapt to that change. Riccardo went from a relatively poor Torro Rosso to a better Red Bull. For me, it would be easier to get to grips with a car that you can go faster in than one that you find is going slower (in terms of relative to the competition; from winning 4 straight titles to suddenly not as competitive at the top). Add in the change from the driving style unique to and exhaust-blown diffuser and I'd call Vettel's 2014 season an anomaly.

Just a footnote - as a Brit I tend to favour Hamilton over Vettel and I do believe that Hamilton is, overall, the better driver. However I will maintain that Vettel is a worthy opponent, a deserved 4x WDC and should he win this year, will acknowledge his effort in this and not put it down to the car.

yep, agree with this. re: your footnote yes I agree that the cars are so closely matched this year that basically both drivers have had an equal opportunity for the title. Whoever wins it will be confident their (and their team's) performance made the difference

I think the relative performances of the cars is debatable, the Ferrari looks faster more often than not.

It's a debate that we'll never resolve. I disagree with that assessment and think the cars have looked very close and performances have varied from track to track


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Just a couple of points discussed here that I'll throw my tuppence-worth in on:

Vettel's stock. Regardless of the other Ferrari driver, his stock would almost certainly rise f he were to win the WDC either this year of next. Whilst we have endless debate over whether Mercedes or Ferrari is the faster car, they are pretty closely matched in my view. On that basis, we are witnessing two 4x WDCs in a straight fight for that 5th title. Whoever takes it will see his stock rise, surely.

2014: I've expressed my view in this before. Vettel went from a very good Red Bull to a poorer one and, yes, struggled to adapt to that change. Riccardo went from a relatively poor Torro Rosso to a better Red Bull. For me, it would be easier to get to grips with a car that you can go faster in than one that you find is going slower (in terms of relative to the competition; from winning 4 straight titles to suddenly not as competitive at the top). Add in the change from the driving style unique to and exhaust-blown diffuser and I'd call Vettel's 2014 season an anomaly.

Just a footnote - as a Brit I tend to favour Hamilton over Vettel and I do believe that Hamilton is, overall, the better driver. However I will maintain that Vettel is a worthy opponent, a deserved 4x WDC and should he win this year, will acknowledge his effort in this and not put it down to the car.

yep, agree with this. re: your footnote yes I agree that the cars are so closely matched this year that basically both drivers have had an equal opportunity for the title. Whoever wins it will be confident their (and their team's) performance made the difference

I think the relative performances of the cars is debatable, the Ferrari looks faster more often than not.

It's a debate that we'll never resolve. I disagree with that assessment and think the cars have looked very close and performances have varied from track to track

Just to be clear; are you saying that, for you, Ferrari have not been the better car this year?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:13 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There's always a risk for any driver going up against someone new. If they get beaten by them, their reputation suffers (and the other's goes up). The size of that rise/fall is directly proportionate to how either driver was viewed before. Kimi had already taken a knock to his reputation, so if he'd beaten Vettel it would have led to a bigger knock for Vettel's. But getting beaten by a relatively unknown tends to elevate the rookie more than it does knock the established driver. Alonso's reputation didn't really suffer after getting beaten by an unknown Hamilton, because it was recognized during the year that Hamilton was a very good driver. Hamilton's reputation, OTOH, soared. And I think a similar thing may happen if Leclerc proves to be that good, although of course Vettel will always have that question mark of 2014 hanging over him so many would likely view that as further proof that he's not quite as good as others say he is. But if the battle is close, then I don't think Vettel's status would be negatively affected to a big degree.
In respect to Vettel his reputation surely has to be to be seen as being up there with the best and not be out performed by a teammate, of course any new teammate has to be viewed as a risk, but who is more likely to beat Vettel, a driver that beat him before or Kimi who got beat easily by Alonso and got matched by Massa?

If you are excepting that some other drivers are better than Vettel than I can see why you would view a driver that beat him before as less risk, Kimi only represented a risk of him falling further down the pecking order.


Why all the negatitity, isn't there an opportunity also? To have a young teammate with a hype surrounding, if you consider all changes as risks, how can you change team like Vettel have done?
Win races in Toro Rosso, Red Bull, Ferrari, with both Renault Engine and Ferrari? Multiple youngest ever..

That's not my post

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:15 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Just a couple of points discussed here that I'll throw my tuppence-worth in on:

Vettel's stock. Regardless of the other Ferrari driver, his stock would almost certainly rise f he were to win the WDC either this year of next. Whilst we have endless debate over whether Mercedes or Ferrari is the faster car, they are pretty closely matched in my view. On that basis, we are witnessing two 4x WDCs in a straight fight for that 5th title. Whoever takes it will see his stock rise, surely.

2014: I've expressed my view in this before. Vettel went from a very good Red Bull to a poorer one and, yes, struggled to adapt to that change. Riccardo went from a relatively poor Torro Rosso to a better Red Bull. For me, it would be easier to get to grips with a car that you can go faster in than one that you find is going slower (in terms of relative to the competition; from winning 4 straight titles to suddenly not as competitive at the top). Add in the change from the driving style unique to and exhaust-blown diffuser and I'd call Vettel's 2014 season an anomaly.

Just a footnote - as a Brit I tend to favour Hamilton over Vettel and I do believe that Hamilton is, overall, the better driver. However I will maintain that Vettel is a worthy opponent, a deserved 4x WDC and should he win this year, will acknowledge his effort in this and not put it down to the car.

yep, agree with this. re: your footnote yes I agree that the cars are so closely matched this year that basically both drivers have had an equal opportunity for the title. Whoever wins it will be confident their (and their team's) performance made the difference

I think the relative performances of the cars is debatable, the Ferrari looks faster more often than not.

It's a debate that we'll never resolve. I disagree with that assessment and think the cars have looked very close and performances have varied from track to track

Just to be clear; are you saying that, for you, Ferrari have not been the better car this year?

We've had this conversation, haven't we? I think they have largely been too close to call and it varies from track to track. Since the summer break the Ferraris have looked quicker in qualifying but this does not appear to translate to the race itself. They are as close as two different design concepts can be IMO


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
no, what I mean is that Ricciardo had already beaten Vettel, so if it happened again it just would have cemented Ric as the better driver. But Kimi had been heavily beaten by Alonso, so if Vettel failed to replicate that then he would have looked poorer

So you are kind of excepting that Vettel is not the best but beating Kimi showed he's still very good?

Kimi being the higher risk of Vettel's standing falling that bit more?

I thought we were talking about reputation and risk to it, not whether I think he's the best?

There's always a risk for any driver going up against someone new. If they get beaten by them, their reputation suffers (and the other's goes up). The size of that rise/fall is directly proportionate to how either driver was viewed before. Kimi had already taken a knock to his reputation, so if he'd beaten Vettel it would have led to a bigger knock for Vettel's. But getting beaten by a relatively unknown tends to elevate the rookie more than it does knock the established driver. Alonso's reputation didn't really suffer after getting beaten by an unknown Hamilton, because it was recognized during the year that Hamilton was a very good driver. Hamilton's reputation, OTOH, soared. And I think a similar thing may happen if Leclerc proves to be that good, although of course Vettel will always have that question mark of 2014 hanging over him so many would likely view that as further proof that he's not quite as good as others say he is. But if the battle is close, then I don't think Vettel's status would be negatively affected to a big degree.

In respect to Vettel his reputation surely has to be to be seen as being up there with the best and not be out performed by a teammate, of course any new teammate has to be viewed as a risk, but who is more likely to beat Vettel, a driver that beat him before or Kimi who got beat easily by Alonso and got matched by Massa?

If you are excepting that some other drivers are better than Vettel than I can see why you would view a driver that beat him before as less risk, Kimi only represented a risk of him falling further down the pecking order.

No, I think you are missing the point of what I'm saying. Or I'm explaining it very badly.

Whatever I've written is a generalization. It does not represent my own views on Vettel or his performances. I'm putting hypotheticals out there to explain what I feel would be the impact upon his reputation were certain events to happen. I'm not saying those events will happen. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

E.g. if Kimi were to have beaten him, then his stock would have dropped. But Kimi didn't and that doesn't mean I think Kimi would, clearly.

I simply put the higher risk factor as who is more likely to have a chance of beating you, for Hamilton there would be more of a risk going up against someone like Verstappen rather than someone like Ocon.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Just a couple of points discussed here that I'll throw my tuppence-worth in on:

Vettel's stock. Regardless of the other Ferrari driver, his stock would almost certainly rise f he were to win the WDC either this year of next. Whilst we have endless debate over whether Mercedes or Ferrari is the faster car, they are pretty closely matched in my view. On that basis, we are witnessing two 4x WDCs in a straight fight for that 5th title. Whoever takes it will see his stock rise, surely.

2014: I've expressed my view in this before. Vettel went from a very good Red Bull to a poorer one and, yes, struggled to adapt to that change. Riccardo went from a relatively poor Torro Rosso to a better Red Bull. For me, it would be easier to get to grips with a car that you can go faster in than one that you find is going slower (in terms of relative to the competition; from winning 4 straight titles to suddenly not as competitive at the top). Add in the change from the driving style unique to and exhaust-blown diffuser and I'd call Vettel's 2014 season an anomaly.

Just a footnote - as a Brit I tend to favour Hamilton over Vettel and I do believe that Hamilton is, overall, the better driver. However I will maintain that Vettel is a worthy opponent, a deserved 4x WDC and should he win this year, will acknowledge his effort in this and not put it down to the car.

yep, agree with this. re: your footnote yes I agree that the cars are so closely matched this year that basically both drivers have had an equal opportunity for the title. Whoever wins it will be confident their (and their team's) performance made the difference

I think the relative performances of the cars is debatable, the Ferrari looks faster more often than not.

It's a debate that we'll never resolve. I disagree with that assessment and think the cars have looked very close and performances have varied from track to track

They have varied but not too and fro in recent races in terms of actual car performance, you yourself labelled Hamilton as being lucky in recent races.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:21 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Just a couple of points discussed here that I'll throw my tuppence-worth in on:

Vettel's stock. Regardless of the other Ferrari driver, his stock would almost certainly rise f he were to win the WDC either this year of next. Whilst we have endless debate over whether Mercedes or Ferrari is the faster car, they are pretty closely matched in my view. On that basis, we are witnessing two 4x WDCs in a straight fight for that 5th title. Whoever takes it will see his stock rise, surely.

2014: I've expressed my view in this before. Vettel went from a very good Red Bull to a poorer one and, yes, struggled to adapt to that change. Riccardo went from a relatively poor Torro Rosso to a better Red Bull. For me, it would be easier to get to grips with a car that you can go faster in than one that you find is going slower (in terms of relative to the competition; from winning 4 straight titles to suddenly not as competitive at the top). Add in the change from the driving style unique to and exhaust-blown diffuser and I'd call Vettel's 2014 season an anomaly.

Just a footnote - as a Brit I tend to favour Hamilton over Vettel and I do believe that Hamilton is, overall, the better driver. However I will maintain that Vettel is a worthy opponent, a deserved 4x WDC and should he win this year, will acknowledge his effort in this and not put it down to the car.

yep, agree with this. re: your footnote yes I agree that the cars are so closely matched this year that basically both drivers have had an equal opportunity for the title. Whoever wins it will be confident their (and their team's) performance made the difference

I think the relative performances of the cars is debatable, the Ferrari looks faster more often than not.

It's a debate that we'll never resolve. I disagree with that assessment and think the cars have looked very close and performances have varied from track to track

Just to be clear; are you saying that, for you, Ferrari have not been the better car this year?

That would be my understanding.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:22 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So you are kind of excepting that Vettel is not the best but beating Kimi showed he's still very good?

Kimi being the higher risk of Vettel's standing falling that bit more?

I thought we were talking about reputation and risk to it, not whether I think he's the best?

There's always a risk for any driver going up against someone new. If they get beaten by them, their reputation suffers (and the other's goes up). The size of that rise/fall is directly proportionate to how either driver was viewed before. Kimi had already taken a knock to his reputation, so if he'd beaten Vettel it would have led to a bigger knock for Vettel's. But getting beaten by a relatively unknown tends to elevate the rookie more than it does knock the established driver. Alonso's reputation didn't really suffer after getting beaten by an unknown Hamilton, because it was recognized during the year that Hamilton was a very good driver. Hamilton's reputation, OTOH, soared. And I think a similar thing may happen if Leclerc proves to be that good, although of course Vettel will always have that question mark of 2014 hanging over him so many would likely view that as further proof that he's not quite as good as others say he is. But if the battle is close, then I don't think Vettel's status would be negatively affected to a big degree.

In respect to Vettel his reputation surely has to be to be seen as being up there with the best and not be out performed by a teammate, of course any new teammate has to be viewed as a risk, but who is more likely to beat Vettel, a driver that beat him before or Kimi who got beat easily by Alonso and got matched by Massa?

If you are excepting that some other drivers are better than Vettel than I can see why you would view a driver that beat him before as less risk, Kimi only represented a risk of him falling further down the pecking order.

No, I think you are missing the point of what I'm saying. Or I'm explaining it very badly.

Whatever I've written is a generalization. It does not represent my own views on Vettel or his performances. I'm putting hypotheticals out there to explain what I feel would be the impact upon his reputation were certain events to happen. I'm not saying those events will happen. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

E.g. if Kimi were to have beaten him, then his stock would have dropped. But Kimi didn't and that doesn't mean I think Kimi would, clearly.

I simply put the higher risk factor as who is more likely to have a chance of beating you, for Hamilton there would be more of a risk going up against someone like Verstappen rather than someone like Ocon.
Yes but risk to reputation is not the same as risk of being beaten. e.g. there may be a smaller risk of Hamilton being beaten by Stroll but a much bigger risk of damage to his reputation were that to happen.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:25 pm 
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The problem with all this Vettel vs Leclerc argument is for some they are hoping just like '14 for Leclerc to beat and they already have their mind made up about Vettel, thats why the option of Vettel beating him is not in their hypothetical.

So should Vettel beat Leclerc all we are going to hear is how Leclerc didn't live up to the hype.

Hence if you ask them what happens to Vettel's reputation if he beats Leclerc, they don't want to entertain that.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It's a debate that we'll never resolve. I disagree with that assessment and think the cars have looked very close and performances have varied from track to track

Just to be clear; are you saying that, for you, Ferrari have not been the better car this year?

We've had this conversation, haven't we? I think they have largely been too close to call and it varies from track to track. Since the summer break the Ferraris have looked quicker in qualifying but this does not appear to translate to the race itself. They are as close as two different design concepts can be IMO

Couldn't possibly disagree more. The Ferrari have had the edge this year. This is my biggest issue with the discussion in the forum. The frequent failure to even acknowledge the obvious. I count 4 races where Mercedes were quicker (Australia, Barcelona, France, Austria) and 1 race where it was truly too close to call (Canada). In the rest of the rounds Ferrari have had the edge. It's usually a slight edge. It's a tenth or two most of the time and often the race pace differential is even smaller but they have clearly been the quicker car.

To claim there have never been cars closer is highly inaccurate. The cars from these two teams were closer last year; where we saw the advantage see-saw back and forth from track to track. That's not to even mention the many Ferrari vs Mclaren years with closely matched cars. Here, with the exception of the tracks that required the use of those thinner tires, Mercedes have been consistently behind since after Australia.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:29 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
The problem with all this Vettel vs Leclerc argument is for some they are hoping just like '14 for Leclerc to beat and they already have their mind made up about Vettel, thats why the option of Vettel beating him is not in their hypothetical.

So should Vettel beat Leclerc all we are going to hear is how Leclerc didn't live up to the hype.

Hence if you ask them what happens to Vettel's reputation if he beats Leclerc, they don't want to entertain that.

The only real problem here is that you're so sensitive about Vettel that you take people discussing the hypothetical possibilities of the matchup as some kind of attack on him. People are just considering the possibilities. No one is disrespecting him or even saying that he will actually lose. People are just discussing what would happen if he did lose because that's the most radical possibility.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yep, agree with this. re: your footnote yes I agree that the cars are so closely matched this year that basically both drivers have had an equal opportunity for the title. Whoever wins it will be confident their (and their team's) performance made the difference

I think the relative performances of the cars is debatable, the Ferrari looks faster more often than not.

It's a debate that we'll never resolve. I disagree with that assessment and think the cars have looked very close and performances have varied from track to track

They have varied but not too and fro in recent races in terms of actual car performance, you yourself labelled Hamilton as being lucky in recent races.
With all due respect, I've explained the lucky thing so many times but you just seem to ignore it each time.

Hamilton was lucky at one particular race - Hungary - because the Mercedes clearly looked like it was struggling in the dry - more so than at any other weekend this year, if not since the beginning of the hybrid era - and the rain coming just in Q3 handed them a lifeline because it appeared to mitigate their dry qualifying performance exactly when they needed it to. This is the luck part. It wouldn't have been lucky if it had rained in e.g. Australia because their car didn't look like it was struggling in Australia. While in Belgium Vettel and Hamilton were neck and neck in qualifying before the rain so I don't think luck played a big part there. In Hungary it just did

Ferrari have looked quicker in qualifying recently, and that certainly hands them an advantage, even if their pace looks much closer to the Mercedes in the race itself. But since it's not been the case every race, it remains to be seen whether they will continue with their qualifying advantage for the remainder of the season. Rain negated that advantage in Hungary or Belgium, two out of the last four races, while in Germany the cars looked pretty equal and we'll never know whether Lewis could have overcome the 2 tenths deficit Bottas had on Vettel. Which means that on only one occasion in the last four races have Ferrari had a measurable advantage in qualifying, so I don't think they can be said to be operating at an advantage for any period of time. So in terms of performance when it matters I think the cars have been as equal as they can be


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:19 am
Posts: 880
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Couldn't possibly disagree more. The Ferrari have had the edge this year. This is my biggest issue with the discussion in the forum. The frequent failure to even acknowledge the obvious. I count 4 races where Mercedes were quicker (Australia, Barcelona, France, Austria) and 1 race where it was truly too close to call (Canada). In the rest of the rounds Ferrari have had the edge. It's usually a slight edge. It's a tenth or two most of the time and often the race pace differential is even smaller but they have clearly been the quicker car.

To claim there have never been cars closer is highly inaccurate. The cars from these two teams were closer last year; where we saw the advantage see-saw back and forth from track to track. That's not to even mention the many Ferrari vs Mclaren years with closely matched cars. Here, with the exception of the tracks that required the use of those thinner tires, Mercedes have been consistently behind since after Australia.


And still, 6-2 fastest lap Merc, 7-5 poles to Merc, 6-5 race wins Merc, 6-5 constructor Merc, so off course it's very debatable, or do you have anything to back up your claims?


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