planetf1.com

It is currently Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:56 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.


Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?

I don't think it is a fact, no. Otherwise there would never be variations in performance and that's clearly not the case. Kimi's speed against Vettel has fluctuated quite significantly in their time together, as did Barrichello's against Schumacher. If a driver isn't comfortable in the car, then he's not going to be able to extract the same speed he would if he was totally hooked up.

As for being fair to Daniel, I don't think that's really relevant. Everyone acknowledges that he beat Vettel, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be able to analyse Vettel's performance independently of that. It doesn't take anything away from Ricciardo's own good performances and it shouldn't be taboo to discuss it.

I don't think anyone's ignoring their relative performances that year. But I also think it would be foolish to completely ignore what senior members of Red Bull have said about Vettel. These are people with a wealth of data to back up their opinions, in a sport that's completely driven by that data, so if they say that what we see isn't the complete picture then I think that needs to be taken onboard. Aside from anything else you'd have to wonder what their motivation is.

Much has been written, by more than one journalist, about how the Red Bulls of that era needed a counter-intuitive style to take full advantage of, which Vettel was able to do but which Webber struggled with. So it's not illogical to imagine that it might take Vettel time to "unlearn" that technique fully and adapt his driving to get the best out of very different cars. Maybe that makes him bad at adapting, but it's not completely out there.

Doesn't mean any of the above is gospel, either, but there's enough to support the idea that Vettel wasn't performing to his best and suffered accordingly in 2014


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28442
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.


Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

I do believe the 2014 season is open to question but not because of what some said that Vettel deliberately under performed, I mean did he not question or refuse a team order to let Ricciardo by, that would be manna in heaven for a driver looking to sack the season.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5556
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?

I don't think it is a fact, no. Otherwise there would never be variations in performance and that's clearly not the case. Kimi's speed against Vettel has fluctuated quite significantly in their time together, as did Barrichello's against Schumacher. If a driver isn't comfortable in the car, then he's not going to be able to extract the same speed he would if he was totally hooked up.

As for being fair to Daniel, I don't think that's really relevant. Everyone acknowledges that he beat Vettel, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be able to analyse Vettel's performance independently of that. It doesn't take anything away from Ricciardo's own good performances and it shouldn't be taboo to discuss it.

I don't think anyone's ignoring their relative performances that year. But I also think it would be foolish to completely ignore what senior members of Red Bull have said about Vettel. These are people with a wealth of data to back up their opinions, in a sport that's completely driven by that data, so if they say that what we see isn't the complete picture then I think that needs to be taken onboard. Aside from anything else you'd have to wonder what their motivation is.

Much has been written, by more than one journalist, about how the Red Bulls of that era needed a counter-intuitive style to take full advantage of, which Vettel was able to do but which Webber struggled with. So it's not illogical to imagine that it might take Vettel time to "unlearn" that technique fully and adapt his driving to get the best out of very different cars. Maybe that makes him bad at adapting, but it's not completely out there.

Doesn't mean any of the above is gospel, either, but there's enough to support the idea that Vettel wasn't performing to his best and suffered accordingly in 2014

Here's where it's important to be specific. What exactly have these Red Bull staffers said that you believe provides backing for the notion that Vettel is actually faster than Daniel despite what happened in 2014? I think people are clutching at straws to be honest but I'm open to any meaningful evidence if you have it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5556
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.


Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

I do believe the 2014 season is open to question but not because of what some said that Vettel deliberately under performed, I mean did he not question or refuse a team order to let Ricciardo by, that would be manna in heaven for a driver looking to sack the season.

There is no driver in F1 of WDC caliber who would deliberately under-perform. The damage to their reputation would not be worth it. Certainly Sebastian Vettel would never deliberately allow his teammate to get the better of him. The theory is completely absurd and is an example of the lengths that people go to in order to discredit what happened that year.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28442
Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
All that ignores the fact that Vettel hates to be beaten, it also kind of ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari for next year.


Everyone hates to be beaten. Ricciardo is too old to start in Ferrari, who obviously needs a young blood. Let's not forget that Binachi would have already some 3 seasons in Ferrari if there was not that unfortunate accident. Ferrari young driver program has taken a serous blow by his death.

Ricciardo is too old?

Ricciardo is 29, comparatively both Vettel and Alonso were 28 when they signed for Ferrari, Kimi was 34.

Hamilton had turned 28 before he stepped into a Mercedes, Bottas was 27, did Renault view Ricciardo as being too old?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6405
Location: Nebraska, USA
Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
All that ignores the fact that Vettel hates to be beaten, it also kind of ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari for next year.


Everyone hates to be beaten. Ricciardo is too old to start in Ferrari, who obviously needs a young blood. Let's not forget that Binachi would have already some 3 seasons in Ferrari if there was not that unfortunate accident. Ferrari young driver program has taken a serous blow by his death.


Exactly... show me the top F1 driver doesnt hate to be beaten. What a ridiculous comment to have been made. I don't know that Ric would have been too old, but you make a good point about the faith in the young driver program. Once again we see an attemp to portray Seb as being the reason Ferrari didn't sign Ric. Even if it were true, which there is no evide ce to support the claim... again...it might well make sense for their future as you explained.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 2634
Location: England
Blake wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
All that ignores the fact that Vettel hates to be beaten, it also kind of ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari for next year.


Everyone hates to be beaten. Ricciardo is too old to start in Ferrari, who obviously needs a young blood. Let's not forget that Binachi would have already some 3 seasons in Ferrari if there was not that unfortunate accident. Ferrari young driver program has taken a serous blow by his death.


Exactly... show me the top F1 driver doesnt hate to be beaten. What a ridiculous comment to have been made. I don't know that Ric would have been too old, but you make a good point about the faith in the young driver program. Once again we see an attemp to portray Seb as being the reason Ferrari didn't sign Ric. Even if it were true, which there is no evide ce to support the claim... again...it might well make sense for their future as you explained.


Well, i'd suggest the reason they didn't sign Ricciardo is pretty obvious right now. If Ferrari honestly think Leclerc has it in him, why break the bank to pull in talent from elsewhere?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2018: {Rookie Year}
Current positon: 1st | 3 Podiums | 1 Win


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 4524
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
All that ignores the fact that Vettel hates to be beaten, it also kind of ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari for next year.


Everyone hates to be beaten. Ricciardo is too old to start in Ferrari, who obviously needs a young blood. Let's not forget that Binachi would have already some 3 seasons in Ferrari if there was not that unfortunate accident. Ferrari young driver program has taken a serous blow by his death.

Ricciardo is too old?

Ricciardo is 29, comparatively both Vettel and Alonso were 28 when they signed for Ferrari, Kimi was 34.

Hamilton had turned 28 before he stepped into a Mercedes, Bottas was 27, did Renault view Ricciardo as being too old?

I said that in context of Ferrari's own internal politics which, at time being, obviously prefer to stick with one experienced and one younger driver. Something that we have seen in the past within the team.

_________________
The end is near


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 4524
Blake wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
All that ignores the fact that Vettel hates to be beaten, it also kind of ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari for next year.


Everyone hates to be beaten. Ricciardo is too old to start in Ferrari, who obviously needs a young blood. Let's not forget that Binachi would have already some 3 seasons in Ferrari if there was not that unfortunate accident. Ferrari young driver program has taken a serous blow by his death.


Exactly... show me the top F1 driver doesnt hate to be beaten. What a ridiculous comment to have been made. I don't know that Ric would have been too old, but you make a good point about the faith in the young driver program. Once again we see an attemp to portray Seb as being the reason Ferrari didn't sign Ric. Even if it were true, which there is no evide ce to support the claim... again...it might well make sense for their future as you explained.

A ever, mirroring each other thoughts, my friend!

(Long live Seb!) ;)

_________________
The end is near


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:32 pm
Posts: 820
sandman1347 wrote:
Okay, I'll be the party pooper here. I hate the fact that Kimi is going to Sauber. On a grid with too few seats available as it is, there's no way a guy who's pushing 40 and way past his prime should be driving for one of these smaller teams that are basically the only opportunities for young drivers to get into the sport. We already have a situation where promising youngsters like Ocon and George Russell are unsure if they will even be on the grid next year. To compound that by having someone use one of the available seats as a summer job during his retirement is just tragic IMO.


Have to agree with this, Kimi is a star but a star of the past, we now need to look to the stars of the future, Ocon deserves a drive surely?

Sorry Kimi but you are bed blocking.[/quote]


If the young drivers are considered to be good enough, the old drivers would have no choice. It is not up to them to 'give up', they were not gifted a seat they had to fight for it, why do they owe young drivers what they did not have?[/quote]
You're kidding yourself if you think this is about how "good" Kimi is. It's about money and nothing more.[/quote]
Agree with the first post btw, seems like a waste of time for Kimi and waste of a seat with him moving to Sauber.

You've lost me on this one though, why is this about money? I'd imagine Kimi costs quite a bit more compared to a junior talent so I can't see that being it. I'm guessing Sauber are happy to have the experience of a WDC in the team.

Makes sense for Sauber but I don't see the point for Kimi and it's a bit of a shame for us IMO.[/quote]
It's not waste of time for Kimi if he is getting paid well.[/quote]
18 years in F1 and your talking about money? I dont think its the point here.
Anyways I understand Ferraris desicion to move ahead, congratulations to Leclerc.
What comes to Kimi, here in Finland there has been a lot of conversation going on , mostly because of the book about Kimi, and also for example Mika Salo, Toni Vilander and Koiranen motorsport teams manager have shared some views of their own.
All saying they knew already Kimi leaves Ferrari and Koiranen team manager said there had been rumours about Sauber during summer for a longer time.
Mika Salo went as long as claiming Kimi has deeper meaning behind this, he drives and developes the team and has after that some role behind the scenes. Not :lol: visible on f1 paddock tho.
But when reading the book about Kimi , I began to understand why.
Kimis mechanics from old Macca days say, he is enthusiastic about engines. He can change f1 cars engine alone if he had to. That goes to other "repairins" too. He fixed Ferraris wc in tests. :lol:
At the beginning of his career he didnt have other than two way of driving. When they asked him to bring car to home, he couldnt. He drove either pedal to the metal or then not.
But he was passionate car developer. Everything interested him.
And thats why he went to Sauber. He wants to develop cars after his career in F1 too. Maybe role in Alfa Romeo?
Other reasons are simple. He loves his kids. He says he doesnt want to loose moments they are growing up. Robin for example learnes almost every time a new word while he is away. Sauber factory is only 50 kilometers away from his home.
Less promotion days, less pressure from outside.
And Sauber gets experienced driver .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?

I don't think it is a fact, no. Otherwise there would never be variations in performance and that's clearly not the case. Kimi's speed against Vettel has fluctuated quite significantly in their time together, as did Barrichello's against Schumacher. If a driver isn't comfortable in the car, then he's not going to be able to extract the same speed he would if he was totally hooked up.

As for being fair to Daniel, I don't think that's really relevant. Everyone acknowledges that he beat Vettel, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be able to analyse Vettel's performance independently of that. It doesn't take anything away from Ricciardo's own good performances and it shouldn't be taboo to discuss it.

I don't think anyone's ignoring their relative performances that year. But I also think it would be foolish to completely ignore what senior members of Red Bull have said about Vettel. These are people with a wealth of data to back up their opinions, in a sport that's completely driven by that data, so if they say that what we see isn't the complete picture then I think that needs to be taken onboard. Aside from anything else you'd have to wonder what their motivation is.

Much has been written, by more than one journalist, about how the Red Bulls of that era needed a counter-intuitive style to take full advantage of, which Vettel was able to do but which Webber struggled with. So it's not illogical to imagine that it might take Vettel time to "unlearn" that technique fully and adapt his driving to get the best out of very different cars. Maybe that makes him bad at adapting, but it's not completely out there.

Doesn't mean any of the above is gospel, either, but there's enough to support the idea that Vettel wasn't performing to his best and suffered accordingly in 2014

Here's where it's important to be specific. What exactly have these Red Bull staffers said that you believe provides backing for the notion that Vettel is actually faster than Daniel despite what happened in 2014? I think people are clutching at straws to be honest but I'm open to any meaningful evidence if you have it.

Well to be clear I've not said that anyone at Red Bull has specifically stated Vettel is faster than Daniel - as far as I'm aware no direct claim on that score has been made. But they have said that Vettel was severely off-form in 2014 and most recently of course Horner said Vettel was the best driver they've ever had, or words to that effect. In 2014 Horner said:

"It is a combination of several things," Auto Bild Motorsport and Reuters reported Horner as saying. "First, when you have fought for the title for five years, it does wear you out a little bit, but that is not the fundamental problem. The way Sebastian brought out those extra tenths from the car in recent years was quite unique. He is very sensitive to the behaviour of the car, especially when braking."

Horner believes Vettel has "lost part of his feeling for the car", adding that his star driver used to drive "like a ballerina, dancing on the throttle and the brakes".

"The driveability was really bad [at the start of this year], so Seb could not look after the tyres in the way that he always has done. His pace in Hungary showed he is getting the feeling for the car back again."


Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... epqs1ob.99


You have to imagine the above would have some impact on his speed - the difficult bit is quantifying how much exactly. Whether he would beat Ricciardo or not is pretty much subjective, just as it is subjective to say who would be quicker in the same car out of Vettel and Hamilton (which has also been discussed by some). But the point is that Vettel was clearly off-form in 2014 so they wouldn't necessarily replicate that if he paired with Ricciardo again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.


Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

I do believe the 2014 season is open to question but not because of what some said that Vettel deliberately under performed, I mean did he not question or refuse a team order to let Ricciardo by, that would be manna in heaven for a driver looking to sack the season.

There is no driver in F1 of WDC caliber who would deliberately under-perform. The damage to their reputation would not be worth it. Certainly Sebastian Vettel would never deliberately allow his teammate to get the better of him. The theory is completely absurd and is an example of the lengths that people go to in order to discredit what happened that year.

yes I agree that he wouldn't under-perform deliberately. That's not really a credible theory IMO


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5556
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?

I don't think it is a fact, no. Otherwise there would never be variations in performance and that's clearly not the case. Kimi's speed against Vettel has fluctuated quite significantly in their time together, as did Barrichello's against Schumacher. If a driver isn't comfortable in the car, then he's not going to be able to extract the same speed he would if he was totally hooked up.

As for being fair to Daniel, I don't think that's really relevant. Everyone acknowledges that he beat Vettel, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be able to analyse Vettel's performance independently of that. It doesn't take anything away from Ricciardo's own good performances and it shouldn't be taboo to discuss it.

I don't think anyone's ignoring their relative performances that year. But I also think it would be foolish to completely ignore what senior members of Red Bull have said about Vettel. These are people with a wealth of data to back up their opinions, in a sport that's completely driven by that data, so if they say that what we see isn't the complete picture then I think that needs to be taken onboard. Aside from anything else you'd have to wonder what their motivation is.

Much has been written, by more than one journalist, about how the Red Bulls of that era needed a counter-intuitive style to take full advantage of, which Vettel was able to do but which Webber struggled with. So it's not illogical to imagine that it might take Vettel time to "unlearn" that technique fully and adapt his driving to get the best out of very different cars. Maybe that makes him bad at adapting, but it's not completely out there.

Doesn't mean any of the above is gospel, either, but there's enough to support the idea that Vettel wasn't performing to his best and suffered accordingly in 2014

Here's where it's important to be specific. What exactly have these Red Bull staffers said that you believe provides backing for the notion that Vettel is actually faster than Daniel despite what happened in 2014? I think people are clutching at straws to be honest but I'm open to any meaningful evidence if you have it.

Well to be clear I've not said that anyone at Red Bull has specifically stated Vettel is faster than Daniel - as far as I'm aware no direct claim on that score has been made. But they have said that Vettel was severely off-form in 2014 and most recently of course Horner said Vettel was the best driver they've ever had, or words to that effect. In 2014 Horner said:

"It is a combination of several things," Auto Bild Motorsport and Reuters reported Horner as saying. "First, when you have fought for the title for five years, it does wear you out a little bit, but that is not the fundamental problem. The way Sebastian brought out those extra tenths from the car in recent years was quite unique. He is very sensitive to the behaviour of the car, especially when braking."

Horner believes Vettel has "lost part of his feeling for the car", adding that his star driver used to drive "like a ballerina, dancing on the throttle and the brakes".

"The driveability was really bad [at the start of this year], so Seb could not look after the tyres in the way that he always has done. His pace in Hungary showed he is getting the feeling for the car back again."


Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... epqs1ob.99


You have to imagine the above would have some impact on his speed - the difficult bit is quantifying how much exactly. Whether he would beat Ricciardo or not is pretty much subjective, just as it is subjective to say who would be quicker in the same car out of Vettel and Hamilton (which has also been discussed by some). But the point is that Vettel was clearly off-form in 2014 so they wouldn't necessarily replicate that if he paired with Ricciardo again.

For me, the quote you provided simply shows that Horner feels that Vettel strugggled to adapt to the car. The fact is that Ricciardo also had to adapt to the new car. In fact he had to adapt to a new team and car. I'm not sure why you think that this somehow constitutes an excuse for Sebastian. As for the bolded bit, it's not really subjective to say that Ricciardo would be quicker as they were teamed together and Ricciardo was quicker. That is objective. It's subjective to say that you think the reason he was quicker is down to Sebastian having an unusual level of struggle to adapt ( a struggle which apparently vanished the next year despite his move to a different team).

As for Horner saying that Vettel was the best Red Bull driver of all time; that has already been discussed. Horner was not asked about performance and so the guy who won 39 races and 4 titles might simply be the best of all time based on CV. I searched and I cannot find any commentary by anyone at Red Bull about whether or not Vettel is quicker than Daniel or a better driver. All we have is their season together (which clearly indicates that Daniel is quicker).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:47 pm
Posts: 3063
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.


The answer to why Riciardo beat Vettel is, in my opinion, that he had worked flat-out for 4 years to win 4 championships. I think the car didn't suit him and he didn't have the energy or focus to get on top of it. I'm not a huge SV fan but he is not behind Riciardo in my opinion.


Yeah, that's always been what I've thought as well. I think, had Red Bull still been the team to beat, Seb would've been as focused as he had been the previous years because he would've been attempting to win his fifth successive WDC. As soon as it became apparent that they weren't even going to be fighting for wins on pure performance, I think he mentally checked out and started looking towards the exit.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and he could've been giving 100%...

All that ignores the fact that Vettel hates to be beaten, it also kind of ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari for next year.


It ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari because that has no relevance here. Ferrari have chosen to promote from within. And if you're trying to imply that Seb had some say in Ricciardo not being signed (and if you're not, apologies, but that is how it reads) he's said many, many times that he is happy to have Kimi as his teammate. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to assume that if he actually had the final say in who his teammate is, Kimi wouldn't be heading back to Sauber in 2019.

_________________
Pick 10 | 1st x3, 2nd x3, 3rd x7
2018: 5th | 2017: 6th | 2016: 8th | 2015: 2nd | 2014: 15th | 2013: 17th | 2012: 11th


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2282
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?

I don't think it is a fact, no. Otherwise there would never be variations in performance and that's clearly not the case. Kimi's speed against Vettel has fluctuated quite significantly in their time together, as did Barrichello's against Schumacher. If a driver isn't comfortable in the car, then he's not going to be able to extract the same speed he would if he was totally hooked up.

As for being fair to Daniel, I don't think that's really relevant. Everyone acknowledges that he beat Vettel, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be able to analyse Vettel's performance independently of that. It doesn't take anything away from Ricciardo's own good performances and it shouldn't be taboo to discuss it.

I don't think anyone's ignoring their relative performances that year. But I also think it would be foolish to completely ignore what senior members of Red Bull have said about Vettel. These are people with a wealth of data to back up their opinions, in a sport that's completely driven by that data, so if they say that what we see isn't the complete picture then I think that needs to be taken onboard. Aside from anything else you'd have to wonder what their motivation is.

Much has been written, by more than one journalist, about how the Red Bulls of that era needed a counter-intuitive style to take full advantage of, which Vettel was able to do but which Webber struggled with. So it's not illogical to imagine that it might take Vettel time to "unlearn" that technique fully and adapt his driving to get the best out of very different cars. Maybe that makes him bad at adapting, but it's not completely out there.

Doesn't mean any of the above is gospel, either, but there's enough to support the idea that Vettel wasn't performing to his best and suffered accordingly in 2014

Here's where it's important to be specific. What exactly have these Red Bull staffers said that you believe provides backing for the notion that Vettel is actually faster than Daniel despite what happened in 2014? I think people are clutching at straws to be honest but I'm open to any meaningful evidence if you have it.

Well to be clear I've not said that anyone at Red Bull has specifically stated Vettel is faster than Daniel - as far as I'm aware no direct claim on that score has been made. But they have said that Vettel was severely off-form in 2014 and most recently of course Horner said Vettel was the best driver they've ever had, or words to that effect. In 2014 Horner said:

"It is a combination of several things," Auto Bild Motorsport and Reuters reported Horner as saying. "First, when you have fought for the title for five years, it does wear you out a little bit, but that is not the fundamental problem. The way Sebastian brought out those extra tenths from the car in recent years was quite unique. He is very sensitive to the behaviour of the car, especially when braking."

Horner believes Vettel has "lost part of his feeling for the car", adding that his star driver used to drive "like a ballerina, dancing on the throttle and the brakes".

"The driveability was really bad [at the start of this year], so Seb could not look after the tyres in the way that he always has done. His pace in Hungary showed he is getting the feeling for the car back again."


Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... epqs1ob.99


You have to imagine the above would have some impact on his speed - the difficult bit is quantifying how much exactly. Whether he would beat Ricciardo or not is pretty much subjective, just as it is subjective to say who would be quicker in the same car out of Vettel and Hamilton (which has also been discussed by some). But the point is that Vettel was clearly off-form in 2014 so they wouldn't necessarily replicate that if he paired with Ricciardo again.

For me, the quote you provided simply shows that Horner feels that Vettel strugggled to adapt to the car. The fact is that Ricciardo also had to adapt to the new car. In fact he had to adapt to a new team and car. I'm not sure why you think that this somehow constitutes an excuse for Sebastian. As for the bolded bit, it's not really subjective to say that Ricciardo would be quicker as they were teamed together and Ricciardo was quicker. That is objective. It's subjective to say that you think the reason he was quicker is down to Sebastian having an unusual level of struggle to adapt ( a struggle which apparently vanished the next year despite his move to a different team).

As for Horner saying that Vettel was the best Red Bull driver of all time; that has already been discussed. Horner was not asked about performance and so the guy who won 39 races and 4 titles might simply be the best of all time based on CV. I searched and I cannot find any commentary by anyone at Red Bull about whether or not Vettel is quicker than Daniel or a better driver. All we have is their season together (which clearly indicates that Daniel is quicker).

Franz Tost. He worked with both of them at Toro Rosso, and he rates Vettel higher. Tost rates Vettel and Verstappen as the two most talented drivers he’s ever worked with.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5556
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think it is a fact, no. Otherwise there would never be variations in performance and that's clearly not the case. Kimi's speed against Vettel has fluctuated quite significantly in their time together, as did Barrichello's against Schumacher. If a driver isn't comfortable in the car, then he's not going to be able to extract the same speed he would if he was totally hooked up.

As for being fair to Daniel, I don't think that's really relevant. Everyone acknowledges that he beat Vettel, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be able to analyse Vettel's performance independently of that. It doesn't take anything away from Ricciardo's own good performances and it shouldn't be taboo to discuss it.

I don't think anyone's ignoring their relative performances that year. But I also think it would be foolish to completely ignore what senior members of Red Bull have said about Vettel. These are people with a wealth of data to back up their opinions, in a sport that's completely driven by that data, so if they say that what we see isn't the complete picture then I think that needs to be taken onboard. Aside from anything else you'd have to wonder what their motivation is.

Much has been written, by more than one journalist, about how the Red Bulls of that era needed a counter-intuitive style to take full advantage of, which Vettel was able to do but which Webber struggled with. So it's not illogical to imagine that it might take Vettel time to "unlearn" that technique fully and adapt his driving to get the best out of very different cars. Maybe that makes him bad at adapting, but it's not completely out there.

Doesn't mean any of the above is gospel, either, but there's enough to support the idea that Vettel wasn't performing to his best and suffered accordingly in 2014

Here's where it's important to be specific. What exactly have these Red Bull staffers said that you believe provides backing for the notion that Vettel is actually faster than Daniel despite what happened in 2014? I think people are clutching at straws to be honest but I'm open to any meaningful evidence if you have it.

Well to be clear I've not said that anyone at Red Bull has specifically stated Vettel is faster than Daniel - as far as I'm aware no direct claim on that score has been made. But they have said that Vettel was severely off-form in 2014 and most recently of course Horner said Vettel was the best driver they've ever had, or words to that effect. In 2014 Horner said:

"It is a combination of several things," Auto Bild Motorsport and Reuters reported Horner as saying. "First, when you have fought for the title for five years, it does wear you out a little bit, but that is not the fundamental problem. The way Sebastian brought out those extra tenths from the car in recent years was quite unique. He is very sensitive to the behaviour of the car, especially when braking."

Horner believes Vettel has "lost part of his feeling for the car", adding that his star driver used to drive "like a ballerina, dancing on the throttle and the brakes".

"The driveability was really bad [at the start of this year], so Seb could not look after the tyres in the way that he always has done. His pace in Hungary showed he is getting the feeling for the car back again."


Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... epqs1ob.99


You have to imagine the above would have some impact on his speed - the difficult bit is quantifying how much exactly. Whether he would beat Ricciardo or not is pretty much subjective, just as it is subjective to say who would be quicker in the same car out of Vettel and Hamilton (which has also been discussed by some). But the point is that Vettel was clearly off-form in 2014 so they wouldn't necessarily replicate that if he paired with Ricciardo again.

For me, the quote you provided simply shows that Horner feels that Vettel strugggled to adapt to the car. The fact is that Ricciardo also had to adapt to the new car. In fact he had to adapt to a new team and car. I'm not sure why you think that this somehow constitutes an excuse for Sebastian. As for the bolded bit, it's not really subjective to say that Ricciardo would be quicker as they were teamed together and Ricciardo was quicker. That is objective. It's subjective to say that you think the reason he was quicker is down to Sebastian having an unusual level of struggle to adapt ( a struggle which apparently vanished the next year despite his move to a different team).

As for Horner saying that Vettel was the best Red Bull driver of all time; that has already been discussed. Horner was not asked about performance and so the guy who won 39 races and 4 titles might simply be the best of all time based on CV. I searched and I cannot find any commentary by anyone at Red Bull about whether or not Vettel is quicker than Daniel or a better driver. All we have is their season together (which clearly indicates that Daniel is quicker).

Franz Tost. He worked with both of them at Toro Rosso, and he rates Vettel higher. Tost rates Vettel and Verstappen as the two most talented drivers he’s ever worked with.

Again; it's important to be specific. What exactly did he say that leads you to believe that?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2282
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Here's where it's important to be specific. What exactly have these Red Bull staffers said that you believe provides backing for the notion that Vettel is actually faster than Daniel despite what happened in 2014? I think people are clutching at straws to be honest but I'm open to any meaningful evidence if you have it.

Well to be clear I've not said that anyone at Red Bull has specifically stated Vettel is faster than Daniel - as far as I'm aware no direct claim on that score has been made. But they have said that Vettel was severely off-form in 2014 and most recently of course Horner said Vettel was the best driver they've ever had, or words to that effect. In 2014 Horner said:

"It is a combination of several things," Auto Bild Motorsport and Reuters reported Horner as saying. "First, when you have fought for the title for five years, it does wear you out a little bit, but that is not the fundamental problem. The way Sebastian brought out those extra tenths from the car in recent years was quite unique. He is very sensitive to the behaviour of the car, especially when braking."

Horner believes Vettel has "lost part of his feeling for the car", adding that his star driver used to drive "like a ballerina, dancing on the throttle and the brakes".

"The driveability was really bad [at the start of this year], so Seb could not look after the tyres in the way that he always has done. His pace in Hungary showed he is getting the feeling for the car back again."


Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... epqs1ob.99


You have to imagine the above would have some impact on his speed - the difficult bit is quantifying how much exactly. Whether he would beat Ricciardo or not is pretty much subjective, just as it is subjective to say who would be quicker in the same car out of Vettel and Hamilton (which has also been discussed by some). But the point is that Vettel was clearly off-form in 2014 so they wouldn't necessarily replicate that if he paired with Ricciardo again.

For me, the quote you provided simply shows that Horner feels that Vettel strugggled to adapt to the car. The fact is that Ricciardo also had to adapt to the new car. In fact he had to adapt to a new team and car. I'm not sure why you think that this somehow constitutes an excuse for Sebastian. As for the bolded bit, it's not really subjective to say that Ricciardo would be quicker as they were teamed together and Ricciardo was quicker. That is objective. It's subjective to say that you think the reason he was quicker is down to Sebastian having an unusual level of struggle to adapt ( a struggle which apparently vanished the next year despite his move to a different team).

As for Horner saying that Vettel was the best Red Bull driver of all time; that has already been discussed. Horner was not asked about performance and so the guy who won 39 races and 4 titles might simply be the best of all time based on CV. I searched and I cannot find any commentary by anyone at Red Bull about whether or not Vettel is quicker than Daniel or a better driver. All we have is their season together (which clearly indicates that Daniel is quicker).

Franz Tost. He worked with both of them at Toro Rosso, and he rates Vettel higher. Tost rates Vettel and Verstappen as the two most talented drivers he’s ever worked with.

Again; it's important to be specific. What exactly did he say that leads you to believe that?

“He’s incredibly sensitive when it comes to the car,” Tost said of Ricciardo.

“He is technically the most experienced driver, with whom I have ever worked with. He can suit every car perfectly to his riding style.”

Tost rated both Verstappen and Sainz higher than Ricciardo. As time has passed, Verstappen has proved himself to be faster than Ricciardo.

Tost also rated Kvyat higher than Ricciardo, so his assessment should be taken with a grain of salt. However, Marko also said that Kvyat was very talented, but lacked the mental strength and confidence to make it in F1.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5556
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
For me, the quote you provided simply shows that Horner feels that Vettel strugggled to adapt to the car. The fact is that Ricciardo also had to adapt to the new car. In fact he had to adapt to a new team and car. I'm not sure why you think that this somehow constitutes an excuse for Sebastian. As for the bolded bit, it's not really subjective to say that Ricciardo would be quicker as they were teamed together and Ricciardo was quicker. That is objective. It's subjective to say that you think the reason he was quicker is down to Sebastian having an unusual level of struggle to adapt ( a struggle which apparently vanished the next year despite his move to a different team).

As for Horner saying that Vettel was the best Red Bull driver of all time; that has already been discussed. Horner was not asked about performance and so the guy who won 39 races and 4 titles might simply be the best of all time based on CV. I searched and I cannot find any commentary by anyone at Red Bull about whether or not Vettel is quicker than Daniel or a better driver. All we have is their season together (which clearly indicates that Daniel is quicker).

Franz Tost. He worked with both of them at Toro Rosso, and he rates Vettel higher. Tost rates Vettel and Verstappen as the two most talented drivers he’s ever worked with.

Again; it's important to be specific. What exactly did he say that leads you to believe that?

“He’s incredibly sensitive when it comes to the car,” Tost said of Ricciardo.

“He is technically the most experienced driver, with whom I have ever worked with. He can suit every car perfectly to his riding style.”

Tost rated both Verstappen and Sainz higher than Ricciardo. As time has passed, Verstappen has proved himself to be faster than Ricciardo.

Tost also rated Kvyat higher than Ricciardo, so his assessment should be taken with a grain of salt. However, Marko also said that Kvyat was very talented, but lacked the mental strength and confidence to make it in F1.

I don't see any of these assertions backed by quotes.

Anyway, a guy who thinks Kvyat is better than Ricciardo sort of loses credibility (if that's even true).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28442
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.


The answer to why Riciardo beat Vettel is, in my opinion, that he had worked flat-out for 4 years to win 4 championships. I think the car didn't suit him and he didn't have the energy or focus to get on top of it. I'm not a huge SV fan but he is not behind Riciardo in my opinion.


Yeah, that's always been what I've thought as well. I think, had Red Bull still been the team to beat, Seb would've been as focused as he had been the previous years because he would've been attempting to win his fifth successive WDC. As soon as it became apparent that they weren't even going to be fighting for wins on pure performance, I think he mentally checked out and started looking towards the exit.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and he could've been giving 100%...

All that ignores the fact that Vettel hates to be beaten, it also kind of ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari for next year.


It ignores Ricciardo not being signed by Ferrari because that has no relevance here. Ferrari have chosen to promote from within. And if you're trying to imply that Seb had some say in Ricciardo not being signed (and if you're not, apologies, but that is how it reads) he's said many, many times that he is happy to have Kimi as his teammate. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to assume that if he actually had the final say in who his teammate is, Kimi wouldn't be heading back to Sauber in 2019.

Well you was trying to say that he lost to Ricciardo because he mentally checked out, then I mentioned Ricciardo not being signed to Ferrari because in part something that I heard that related to Baku last year when Vettel lost it. Marchionne was said to be not too pleased with Vettel and said that if he wanted to continue to lead the team he must modify his behaviour or they would look to sign someone like Ricciardo to the team.

If this is true then it suggests that Vettel's position within the team was somewhat protected by keeping Kimi in the team, a driver that is not a threat to him, so in the case of Vettel he himself didn't see defeat to Ricciardo as being some kind of fluke event.

The situation with Leclerc is somewhat different with him being a Ferrari junior driver, I don't believe in this case they would look to keep Vettel happy by derailing their own junior program especially with a talent like Leclerc.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28442
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think it is a fact, no. Otherwise there would never be variations in performance and that's clearly not the case. Kimi's speed against Vettel has fluctuated quite significantly in their time together, as did Barrichello's against Schumacher. If a driver isn't comfortable in the car, then he's not going to be able to extract the same speed he would if he was totally hooked up.

As for being fair to Daniel, I don't think that's really relevant. Everyone acknowledges that he beat Vettel, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be able to analyse Vettel's performance independently of that. It doesn't take anything away from Ricciardo's own good performances and it shouldn't be taboo to discuss it.

I don't think anyone's ignoring their relative performances that year. But I also think it would be foolish to completely ignore what senior members of Red Bull have said about Vettel. These are people with a wealth of data to back up their opinions, in a sport that's completely driven by that data, so if they say that what we see isn't the complete picture then I think that needs to be taken onboard. Aside from anything else you'd have to wonder what their motivation is.

Much has been written, by more than one journalist, about how the Red Bulls of that era needed a counter-intuitive style to take full advantage of, which Vettel was able to do but which Webber struggled with. So it's not illogical to imagine that it might take Vettel time to "unlearn" that technique fully and adapt his driving to get the best out of very different cars. Maybe that makes him bad at adapting, but it's not completely out there.

Doesn't mean any of the above is gospel, either, but there's enough to support the idea that Vettel wasn't performing to his best and suffered accordingly in 2014

Here's where it's important to be specific. What exactly have these Red Bull staffers said that you believe provides backing for the notion that Vettel is actually faster than Daniel despite what happened in 2014? I think people are clutching at straws to be honest but I'm open to any meaningful evidence if you have it.

Well to be clear I've not said that anyone at Red Bull has specifically stated Vettel is faster than Daniel - as far as I'm aware no direct claim on that score has been made. But they have said that Vettel was severely off-form in 2014 and most recently of course Horner said Vettel was the best driver they've ever had, or words to that effect. In 2014 Horner said:

"It is a combination of several things," Auto Bild Motorsport and Reuters reported Horner as saying. "First, when you have fought for the title for five years, it does wear you out a little bit, but that is not the fundamental problem. The way Sebastian brought out those extra tenths from the car in recent years was quite unique. He is very sensitive to the behaviour of the car, especially when braking."

Horner believes Vettel has "lost part of his feeling for the car", adding that his star driver used to drive "like a ballerina, dancing on the throttle and the brakes".

"The driveability was really bad [at the start of this year], so Seb could not look after the tyres in the way that he always has done. His pace in Hungary showed he is getting the feeling for the car back again."


Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... epqs1ob.99


You have to imagine the above would have some impact on his speed - the difficult bit is quantifying how much exactly. Whether he would beat Ricciardo or not is pretty much subjective, just as it is subjective to say who would be quicker in the same car out of Vettel and Hamilton (which has also been discussed by some). But the point is that Vettel was clearly off-form in 2014 so they wouldn't necessarily replicate that if he paired with Ricciardo again.

For me, the quote you provided simply shows that Horner feels that Vettel strugggled to adapt to the car. The fact is that Ricciardo also had to adapt to the new car. In fact he had to adapt to a new team and car. I'm not sure why you think that this somehow constitutes an excuse for Sebastian. As for the bolded bit, it's not really subjective to say that Ricciardo would be quicker as they were teamed together and Ricciardo was quicker. That is objective. It's subjective to say that you think the reason he was quicker is down to Sebastian having an unusual level of struggle to adapt ( a struggle which apparently vanished the next year despite his move to a different team).

As for Horner saying that Vettel was the best Red Bull driver of all time; that has already been discussed. Horner was not asked about performance and so the guy who won 39 races and 4 titles might simply be the best of all time based on CV. I searched and I cannot find any commentary by anyone at Red Bull about whether or not Vettel is quicker than Daniel or a better driver. All we have is their season together (which clearly indicates that Daniel is quicker).

Franz Tost. He worked with both of them at Toro Rosso, and he rates Vettel higher. Tost rates Vettel and Verstappen as the two most talented drivers he’s ever worked with.

Tost also rated Kvyat as being better than Ricciardo, read into that what you want.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5556
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I'm going to rephrase this into a question rather than an assertion. The question is; what happens to Sebastian Vettel if Leclerc proves to have the upper hand in the matchup?

It's a good question. With the amount of money that Vettel gets paid, losing to his teammate on pace/performance would be catastrophic to his career. It would almost guarantee that his time with Ferrari would come to an end after his contract is up. They won't pay him top dollar to be a #2 and he isn't wired to play second fiddle anyway. It might also spell the end to his time driving in the top cars (and potentially even the end of his F1 career in the most extreme of scenarios).

There are really only two top cars in F1 currently - Mercedes and Ferrari. Washing out at Ferrari in defeat would basically eliminate any chance of a Mercedes drive. It would mean that Ferrari will back Charles and that Hamilton will probably stay at Merc or if he retires, Max would likely be brought in to replace him. Renault have already signed Daniel so they won't be in the picture should their car come good. Ironically, Red Bull might be where he ends up if Max abandons ship and leaves a vacancy. Aside from that possibility, maybe McLaren might have an outside chance if they improve a little. It all becomes very uncertain doesn't it?

Honestly, I can't imagine that Vettel is happy about this signing at all. He knew where he stood against Kimi and now there is a complete unknown introduced to the equation. Charles is young and ambitious and will see Vettel as his main target. Vettel wants to be able to focus on beating Lewis without having to worry about an internal challenge. This is the last thing he needed (or wanted). His role as Ferrari's #1 wheelman (which was totally secure alongside Kimi) has come under threat here. We've seen in recent years with Alonso that no matter how good you are, you only get so many opportunities with the top teams. If Vettel washes out here, he might not get another chance, 4 WDCs or not.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:42 pm
Posts: 148
In listening to some commentary, it sounds like Leclerc is a very special talent and some are thinking that this may not make Seb happy and some saying that he might even have more talent and be faster. Of course a lot of people said that about a lot of young drivers (Vandornne being a recent one) and we see that it doesn't always translate.

Will also be interesting to see how Norris does, I have watched probably 1/2 of the F2 races and Russell, to me looks better. More aggressive, more polished, etc... Maybe Norris, at this stage isn't driving all that hard but it seems like he should be dominating (I know he is 2nd in the points) but a few races I watched he was in the 3-6th position range and didn't look all that "special" compared to Russell. I haven't watched him that long so I am sure there is reason for the hype.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1648
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.


Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?


You are a very funny individual and I can see you have twisted yourself into a pretzel.

So on one hand you are arguing Vettel was at his best in '14 but Ricciardo was just better if I get your drift, also on the other hand you believe the Vettel in '15 at Ferrari had the same performance as the year before?

Interesting!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1648
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I'm going to rephrase this into a question rather than an assertion. The question is; what happens to Sebastian Vettel if Leclerc proves to have the upper hand in the matchup?

It's a good question. With the amount of money that Vettel gets paid, losing to his teammate on pace/performance would be catastrophic to his career. It would almost guarantee that his time with Ferrari would come to an end after his contract is up. They won't pay him top dollar to be a #2 and he isn't wired to play second fiddle anyway. It might also spell the end to his time driving in the top cars (and potentially even the end of his F1 career in the most extreme of scenarios).

There are really only two top cars in F1 currently - Mercedes and Ferrari. Washing out at Ferrari in defeat would basically eliminate any chance of a Mercedes drive. It would mean that Ferrari will back Charles and that Hamilton will probably stay at Merc or if he retires, Max would likely be brought in to replace him. Renault have already signed Daniel so they won't be in the picture should their car come good. Ironically, Red Bull might be where he ends up if Max abandons ship and leaves a vacancy. Aside from that possibility, maybe McLaren might have an outside chance if they improve a little. It all becomes very uncertain doesn't it?

Honestly, I can't imagine that Vettel is happy about this signing at all. He knew where he stood against Kimi and now there is a complete unknown introduced to the equation. Charles is young and ambitious and will see Vettel as his main target. Vettel wants to be able to focus on beating Lewis without having to worry about an internal challenge. This is the last thing he needed (or wanted). His role as Ferrari's #1 wheelman (which was totally secure alongside Kimi) has come under threat here. We've seen in recent years with Alonso that no matter how good you are, you only get so many opportunities with the top teams. If Vettel washes out here, he might not get another chance, 4 WDCs or not.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The dislike that reeks out of this post, if the Ferrari continues on this path of development means Leclerc will be beating Hamilton as well but I guess your dislike of Vettel did not even let you figure that out.

But somehow you are in Vettel's head to know he's not happy about it, you believe any team will pass on a 4WDC.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5556
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.


Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?


You are a very funny individual and I can see you have twisted yourself into a pretzel.

So on one hand you are arguing Vettel was at his best in '14 but Ricciardo was just better if I get your drift, also on the other hand you believe the Vettel in '15 at Ferrari had the same performance as the year before?

Interesting!

I'll try to bring this down to a level where you might be able to understand it since it's clear you are struggling. When having a sub-par season, you don't miraculously lose your talent. You still have the same level of skill and talent as you always did. You still have your speed in other words. That doesn't abandon you. A bad season usually means more mistakes and/or bad luck than normal. It does NOT mean less speed. Vettel wasn't just losing out to Daniel in the points. He was slower both on Saturdays and Sundays. That's not usually a fluke. Now it's possible that the season was in some way not representative of Vettel's normal level of ability but jumping to that conclusion is unfair to Daniel IMO.

The reason I brought up 2015 is that people like you make the excuse that it was the new regulations that messed Vettel up. If that were true, he wouldn't be right back to normal the following year under the exact same rules. I think the only difference between Seb in 2014 and Seb in 2015 is that he made a lot fewer errors in 2015 and had better luck and a weaker teammate.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5556
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I'm going to rephrase this into a question rather than an assertion. The question is; what happens to Sebastian Vettel if Leclerc proves to have the upper hand in the matchup?

It's a good question. With the amount of money that Vettel gets paid, losing to his teammate on pace/performance would be catastrophic to his career. It would almost guarantee that his time with Ferrari would come to an end after his contract is up. They won't pay him top dollar to be a #2 and he isn't wired to play second fiddle anyway. It might also spell the end to his time driving in the top cars (and potentially even the end of his F1 career in the most extreme of scenarios).

There are really only two top cars in F1 currently - Mercedes and Ferrari. Washing out at Ferrari in defeat would basically eliminate any chance of a Mercedes drive. It would mean that Ferrari will back Charles and that Hamilton will probably stay at Merc or if he retires, Max would likely be brought in to replace him. Renault have already signed Daniel so they won't be in the picture should their car come good. Ironically, Red Bull might be where he ends up if Max abandons ship and leaves a vacancy. Aside from that possibility, maybe McLaren might have an outside chance if they improve a little. It all becomes very uncertain doesn't it?

Honestly, I can't imagine that Vettel is happy about this signing at all. He knew where he stood against Kimi and now there is a complete unknown introduced to the equation. Charles is young and ambitious and will see Vettel as his main target. Vettel wants to be able to focus on beating Lewis without having to worry about an internal challenge. This is the last thing he needed (or wanted). His role as Ferrari's #1 wheelman (which was totally secure alongside Kimi) has come under threat here. We've seen in recent years with Alonso that no matter how good you are, you only get so many opportunities with the top teams. If Vettel washes out here, he might not get another chance, 4 WDCs or not.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The dislike that reeks out of this post, if the Ferrari continues on this path of development means Leclerc will be beating Hamilton as well but I guess your dislike of Vettel did not even let you figure that out.

But somehow you are in Vettel's head to know he's not happy about it, you believe any team will pass on a 4WDC.

I actually like Vettel. Probably my 4th or 5th favorite driver out there currently. What part of this post has anything to do with disliking Vettel? Also, I'm fascinated to find out how you link this post to Leclerc beating Hamilton? Based on the string of emojis at the beginning of your post, you seem to really be upset by this for some reason but it's just a hypothetical scenario. "What happens if Sebastian loses to Charles"? The "if" being the key term. Try to relax bud.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1648
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I'm going to rephrase this into a question rather than an assertion. The question is; what happens to Sebastian Vettel if Leclerc proves to have the upper hand in the matchup?

It's a good question. With the amount of money that Vettel gets paid, losing to his teammate on pace/performance would be catastrophic to his career. It would almost guarantee that his time with Ferrari would come to an end after his contract is up. They won't pay him top dollar to be a #2 and he isn't wired to play second fiddle anyway. It might also spell the end to his time driving in the top cars (and potentially even the end of his F1 career in the most extreme of scenarios).

There are really only two top cars in F1 currently - Mercedes and Ferrari. Washing out at Ferrari in defeat would basically eliminate any chance of a Mercedes drive. It would mean that Ferrari will back Charles and that Hamilton will probably stay at Merc or if he retires, Max would likely be brought in to replace him. Renault have already signed Daniel so they won't be in the picture should their car come good. Ironically, Red Bull might be where he ends up if Max abandons ship and leaves a vacancy. Aside from that possibility, maybe McLaren might have an outside chance if they improve a little. It all becomes very uncertain doesn't it?

Honestly, I can't imagine that Vettel is happy about this signing at all. He knew where he stood against Kimi and now there is a complete unknown introduced to the equation. Charles is young and ambitious and will see Vettel as his main target. Vettel wants to be able to focus on beating Lewis without having to worry about an internal challenge. This is the last thing he needed (or wanted). His role as Ferrari's #1 wheelman (which was totally secure alongside Kimi) has come under threat here. We've seen in recent years with Alonso that no matter how good you are, you only get so many opportunities with the top teams. If Vettel washes out here, he might not get another chance, 4 WDCs or not.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The dislike that reeks out of this post, if the Ferrari continues on this path of development means Leclerc will be beating Hamilton as well but I guess your dislike of Vettel did not even let you figure that out.

But somehow you are in Vettel's head to know he's not happy about it, you believe any team will pass on a 4WDC.


I actually like Vettel. Probably my 4th or 5th favorite driver out there currently. What part of this post has anything to do with disliking Vettel? Also, I'm fascinated to find out how you link this post to Leclerc beating Hamilton? Based on the string of emojis at the beginning of your post, you seem to really be upset by this for some reason but it's just a hypothetical scenario. "What happens if Sebastian loses to Charles"? The "if" being the key term. Try to relax bud.


I was laughing at your post as it is very funny and you didn't read my post to understand but just to reply, your scenario paints Leclerc beating Vettel, so was just extrapolating if the Ferrari is the same car like this season he'll be thrashing Hamilton as well how can you fail to grasp that?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6100
Location: Michigan, USA
Rockie wrote:
The dislike that reeks out of this post, if the Ferrari continues on this path of development means Leclerc will be beating Hamilton as well but I guess your dislike of Vettel did not even let you figure that out.

But somehow you are in Vettel's head to know he's not happy about it, you believe any team will pass on a 4WDC.

I don't read this like he dislikes Vettel at all. It seems to me like a very neutral, hypothetical analysis of what is obviously an IF - Leclerc beating Vettel.

And yes, obviously a team would pass on a four-time WDC if they think they have better options. Whether Leclerc is that option remains to be seen.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1648
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.


Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?


You are a very funny individual and I can see you have twisted yourself into a pretzel.

So on one hand you are arguing Vettel was at his best in '14 but Ricciardo was just better if I get your drift, also on the other hand you believe the Vettel in '15 at Ferrari had the same performance as the year before?

Interesting!

I'll try to bring this down to a level where you might be able to understand it since it's clear you are struggling. When having a sub-par season, you don't miraculously lose your talent. You still have the same level of skill and talent as you always did. You still have your speed in other words. That doesn't abandon you. A bad season usually means more mistakes and/or bad luck than normal. It does NOT mean less speed. Vettel wasn't just losing out to Daniel in the points. He was slower both on Saturdays and Sundays. That's not usually a fluke. Now it's possible that the season was in some way not representative of Vettel's normal level of ability but jumping to that conclusion is unfair to Daniel IMO.

The reason I brought up 2015 is that people like you make the excuse that it was the new regulations that messed Vettel up. If that were true, he wouldn't be right back to normal the following year under the exact same rules. I think the only difference between Seb in 2014 and Seb in 2015 is that he made a lot fewer errors in 2015 and had better luck and a weaker teammate.


What errors did he make in 2014 the only one I can remember was Hungary.


Also Vettel had a lot of failures in '14 dey just didn't all lead to a DNF.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1648
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The dislike that reeks out of this post, if the Ferrari continues on this path of development means Leclerc will be beating Hamilton as well but I guess your dislike of Vettel did not even let you figure that out.

But somehow you are in Vettel's head to know he's not happy about it, you believe any team will pass on a 4WDC.

I don't read this like he dislikes Vettel at all. It seems to me like a very neutral, hypothetical analysis of what is obviously an IF - Leclerc beating Vettel.

And yes, obviously a team would pass on a four-time WDC if they think they have better options. Whether Leclerc is that option remains to be seen.


I suppose neutral means something different this days.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5556
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The dislike that reeks out of this post, if the Ferrari continues on this path of development means Leclerc will be beating Hamilton as well but I guess your dislike of Vettel did not even let you figure that out.

But somehow you are in Vettel's head to know he's not happy about it, you believe any team will pass on a 4WDC.

I don't read this like he dislikes Vettel at all. It seems to me like a very neutral, hypothetical analysis of what is obviously an IF - Leclerc beating Vettel.

And yes, obviously a team would pass on a four-time WDC if they think they have better options. Whether Leclerc is that option remains to be seen.


I suppose neutral means something different this days.

Can you maybe explain where in the post it seems to be some kind of anti-Vettel statement? I'm seriously asking because I have no idea what you're talking about.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5556
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?


You are a very funny individual and I can see you have twisted yourself into a pretzel.

So on one hand you are arguing Vettel was at his best in '14 but Ricciardo was just better if I get your drift, also on the other hand you believe the Vettel in '15 at Ferrari had the same performance as the year before?

Interesting!

I'll try to bring this down to a level where you might be able to understand it since it's clear you are struggling. When having a sub-par season, you don't miraculously lose your talent. You still have the same level of skill and talent as you always did. You still have your speed in other words. That doesn't abandon you. A bad season usually means more mistakes and/or bad luck than normal. It does NOT mean less speed. Vettel wasn't just losing out to Daniel in the points. He was slower both on Saturdays and Sundays. That's not usually a fluke. Now it's possible that the season was in some way not representative of Vettel's normal level of ability but jumping to that conclusion is unfair to Daniel IMO.

The reason I brought up 2015 is that people like you make the excuse that it was the new regulations that messed Vettel up. If that were true, he wouldn't be right back to normal the following year under the exact same rules. I think the only difference between Seb in 2014 and Seb in 2015 is that he made a lot fewer errors in 2015 and had better luck and a weaker teammate.


What errors did he make in 2014 the only one I can remember was Hungary.


Also Vettel had a lot of failures in '14 dey just didn't all lead to a DNF.

2014 was one of his higher mistake years (I don't feel like going back to find them, look for them yourself if you're interested). you are correct in that he also absolutely had bad luck and bad reliability. He burned through engine components and had various technical problems all year while Daniel had a much cleaner run. I do think the mechanical issues created a lopsided view of the matchup to some extent. Funny how rarely the excuses bring this up. It's always some attempt to say Vettel was magically slower than he always is. The timing of the reliability struggles was also important. There were a handful of genuine opportunities for the Red Bulls to win and Daniel was always the guy to capitalize.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:31 am
Posts: 2088
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Firstly, those who are worried about Leclerc not being allowed to race Vettel are deluded, give him 6 or so races and the only view of Leclerc that Vettel will have is of his gearbox...

Secondly, Ferrari didn't have to give Sauber any money to take Raikonnen, they've could just stop charging them for engines for next year and the year after...

Where do some of you guys derive such nonsense??

You speak as if Vettel is a scrub of sorts and Leclerc is this proven beast of a driver when in fact he's only bested Ericsson by a smidgen at this point and his performance against Ericsson is almost identical to Wherlin, yet Wherlin wasn't touted as being this all encompassing next super talent in F1. However Leclerc's praises are being sung to the moon and back almost to the level Vandoorne's praises were sung 2 seasons ago, and boy were many people wrong about him and his ability.

As I stated in regards to Vandoorne back then, why don't we wait and see how the kid does against a proven commodity and one of the all-time greats before we pass the torch.

The Ricciardo vs Vettel was a bit of an anomaly and if you were to pair them together again, I'm not so sure Ricciardo would best Vettel like that again, and rather, I'd expect Vettel to beat him consistently. Something about 2014 still doen't fit with Vettel just like 2011 doesn't fit with the rest of Hamilton's career.

Was Vettel just off?…

Did the car not suit him?…

Was he already with Ferrari in his head so not pushing to the limit?…

IDK, could be one of those things or all of them combined, but what I do know is that the same Vettel who won those 4 championships and all those races for Red Bull is still alive and well and doing phenomenally well while Ricciardo is finding it difficult to beat his young erratic teammate who though quick, is also not on Vettel's level.


How about we leave all this "next messiah" talk in regards to Leclerc for after the 2019 season is over? Only then will we have seen enough of him in a top car alongside a top elite talent to be able to truly assess his talent and ability.


Sorry but I live in South Florida which is the home of the Miami Dolphins and since we moved here in 1987, ALL you hear when a new talent is signed, be it a player, a coach, a general manage or anyone in a high profile position is the "THE SO & SO" Era and quite frankly the one time it was on its way to actually coming to fruition, their star QB didn't like the coach so they fired him. Outside of that, it has NEVER worked out!!!!

So for me, I cannot stand for people to definitively say what youngsters who have yet to prove themselves fully at the top level will do one way or another.
Triple A and Feeder leagues are a significant step down from the big leagues and the ONLY place you can see true separation is IN the big leagues.

While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.


Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

I do believe the 2014 season is open to question but not because of what some said that Vettel deliberately under performed, I mean did he not question or refuse a team order to let Ricciardo by, that would be manna in heaven for a driver looking to sack the season.


Vettel did not deliberately under perform...no driver would ever do that. 2014 was a bit of an anomaly, like 2011 for Hamilton - mistakes, reliability issues and bad luck combine to result in a poor performance on the whole, and their teammates easily outperformed them. To be fair, we had glimpses of greatness even in those down years (they finished in the top 5 after all), so it is pretty clear that the overall poor results and final abysmal standings were an anomaly in comparison to other years.

I honestly hope that Charles is not being over-hyped, although I am pretty sure he is. He hasn't got Max's mentality, so I am not sure that all the hype won't ill-affect him. It is almost better to come in an underdog and surprise everyone than to arrive with such over-blown expectations. Nonetheless, stable minds will prevail and if he just continues to do his best, he'll be fine. Kimi is going to absolutely flourish at Sauber - betcha!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Posts: 833
Location: India
appletree wrote:
18 years in F1 and your talking about money? I dont think its the point here.
Anyways I understand Ferraris desicion to move ahead, congratulations to Leclerc.
What comes to Kimi, here in Finland there has been a lot of conversation going on , mostly because of the book about Kimi, and also for example Mika Salo, Toni Vilander and Koiranen motorsport teams manager have shared some views of their own.
All saying they knew already Kimi leaves Ferrari and Koiranen team manager said there had been rumours about Sauber during summer for a longer time.
Mika Salo went as long as claiming Kimi has deeper meaning behind this, he drives and developes the team and has after that some role behind the scenes. Not :lol: visible on f1 paddock tho.
But when reading the book about Kimi , I began to understand why.
Kimis mechanics from old Macca days say, he is enthusiastic about engines. He can change f1 cars engine alone if he had to. That goes to other "repairins" too. He fixed Ferraris wc in tests. :lol:
At the beginning of his career he didnt have other than two way of driving. When they asked him to bring car to home, he couldnt. He drove either pedal to the metal or then not.
But he was passionate car developer. Everything interested him.
And thats why he went to Sauber. He wants to develop cars after his career in F1 too. Maybe role in Alfa Romeo?
Other reasons are simple. He loves his kids. He says he doesnt want to loose moments they are growing up. Robin for example learnes almost every time a new word while he is away. Sauber factory is only 50 kilometers away from his home.
Less promotion days, less pressure from outside.
And Sauber gets experienced driver .


Kimi is going to get lapped by Ferrari every race and he will be scraping in to get into Q3 and points. So honestly I am pretty shocked at his decision. You are right about car development role. He had already hinted that is he is interested in such role rather than going Nico route after retirement.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/raikkonen-cannot-understand-rosberg-retirement/

Just for curiosity I just check Nico channel and OMG he is becoming some sort of youtuber :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvBBohg9j1Q&t=189s

_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM9-GK3MeLI


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?

I don't think it is a fact, no. Otherwise there would never be variations in performance and that's clearly not the case. Kimi's speed against Vettel has fluctuated quite significantly in their time together, as did Barrichello's against Schumacher. If a driver isn't comfortable in the car, then he's not going to be able to extract the same speed he would if he was totally hooked up.

As for being fair to Daniel, I don't think that's really relevant. Everyone acknowledges that he beat Vettel, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be able to analyse Vettel's performance independently of that. It doesn't take anything away from Ricciardo's own good performances and it shouldn't be taboo to discuss it.

I don't think anyone's ignoring their relative performances that year. But I also think it would be foolish to completely ignore what senior members of Red Bull have said about Vettel. These are people with a wealth of data to back up their opinions, in a sport that's completely driven by that data, so if they say that what we see isn't the complete picture then I think that needs to be taken onboard. Aside from anything else you'd have to wonder what their motivation is.

Much has been written, by more than one journalist, about how the Red Bulls of that era needed a counter-intuitive style to take full advantage of, which Vettel was able to do but which Webber struggled with. So it's not illogical to imagine that it might take Vettel time to "unlearn" that technique fully and adapt his driving to get the best out of very different cars. Maybe that makes him bad at adapting, but it's not completely out there.

Doesn't mean any of the above is gospel, either, but there's enough to support the idea that Vettel wasn't performing to his best and suffered accordingly in 2014

Here's where it's important to be specific. What exactly have these Red Bull staffers said that you believe provides backing for the notion that Vettel is actually faster than Daniel despite what happened in 2014? I think people are clutching at straws to be honest but I'm open to any meaningful evidence if you have it.

Well to be clear I've not said that anyone at Red Bull has specifically stated Vettel is faster than Daniel - as far as I'm aware no direct claim on that score has been made. But they have said that Vettel was severely off-form in 2014 and most recently of course Horner said Vettel was the best driver they've ever had, or words to that effect. In 2014 Horner said:

"It is a combination of several things," Auto Bild Motorsport and Reuters reported Horner as saying. "First, when you have fought for the title for five years, it does wear you out a little bit, but that is not the fundamental problem. The way Sebastian brought out those extra tenths from the car in recent years was quite unique. He is very sensitive to the behaviour of the car, especially when braking."

Horner believes Vettel has "lost part of his feeling for the car", adding that his star driver used to drive "like a ballerina, dancing on the throttle and the brakes".

"The driveability was really bad [at the start of this year], so Seb could not look after the tyres in the way that he always has done. His pace in Hungary showed he is getting the feeling for the car back again."


Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... epqs1ob.99


You have to imagine the above would have some impact on his speed - the difficult bit is quantifying how much exactly. Whether he would beat Ricciardo or not is pretty much subjective, just as it is subjective to say who would be quicker in the same car out of Vettel and Hamilton (which has also been discussed by some). But the point is that Vettel was clearly off-form in 2014 so they wouldn't necessarily replicate that if he paired with Ricciardo again.

For me, the quote you provided simply shows that Horner feels that Vettel strugggled to adapt to the car. The fact is that Ricciardo also had to adapt to the new car. In fact he had to adapt to a new team and car. I'm not sure why you think that this somehow constitutes an excuse for Sebastian. As for the bolded bit, it's not really subjective to say that Ricciardo would be quicker as they were teamed together and Ricciardo was quicker. That is objective. It's subjective to say that you think the reason he was quicker is down to Sebastian having an unusual level of struggle to adapt ( a struggle which apparently vanished the next year despite his move to a different team).

As for Horner saying that Vettel was the best Red Bull driver of all time; that has already been discussed. Horner was not asked about performance and so the guy who won 39 races and 4 titles might simply be the best of all time based on CV. I searched and I cannot find any commentary by anyone at Red Bull about whether or not Vettel is quicker than Daniel or a better driver. All we have is their season together (which clearly indicates that Daniel is quicker).

Yeah I did already mention that there are no statements I’m aware of that categorically state either Vettel or Ricciardo are faster than the other. If you’re looking for empirical evidence then this is the wrong discussion. I’m just pointing out that there are enough comments by senior personnel within the team to confirm that Vettel was seriously off his game and not producing the results he would otherwise be capable of. How much is anyone’s guess, which is where the debate comes in. And from my perspective it’s fine to take a position either way. Finally, if the actual gap between the two was truly represented by the 2014 performances then I simply cannot see Horner staring Vettel was the best driver they had. More like the most fortunate. But happy to disagree


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.


Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?


You are a very funny individual and I can see you have twisted yourself into a pretzel.

So on one hand you are arguing Vettel was at his best in '14 but Ricciardo was just better if I get your drift, also on the other hand you believe the Vettel in '15 at Ferrari had the same performance as the year before?

Interesting!

I'll try to bring this down to a level where you might be able to understand it since it's clear you are struggling. When having a sub-par season, you don't miraculously lose your talent. You still have the same level of skill and talent as you always did. You still have your speed in other words. That doesn't abandon you. A bad season usually means more mistakes and/or bad luck than normal. It does NOT mean less speed. Vettel wasn't just losing out to Daniel in the points. He was slower both on Saturdays and Sundays. That's not usually a fluke. Now it's possible that the season was in some way not representative of Vettel's normal level of ability but jumping to that conclusion is unfair to Daniel IMO.

The reason I brought up 2015 is that people like you make the excuse that it was the new regulations that messed Vettel up. If that were true, he wouldn't be right back to normal the following year under the exact same rules. I think the only difference between Seb in 2014 and Seb in 2015 is that he made a lot fewer errors in 2015 and had better luck and a weaker teammate.

I strongly disagree with the premise you are making here. Of course speed may fluctuate, even if talent remains the same. If a driver is not 100% comfortable in a car, then he will not be able to push it to its limits in the same way that he would if he was totally at ease with it. Which in turn will mean that he won't be able to go as fast. This is a sport where hundredths of a second can make a difference and you don't imagine that some of that may be scrubbed off depending on how happy a driver is with his machinery?

You keep mentioning that this is unfair to Daniel but I don't see what fairness has to do with it. We're discussing whether we think Vettel had more speed to give and, if so, how much more. No-one is disputing that Daniel beat him


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is is in a no-win situation here. If he beats Leclerc convincingly, people will just say that Leclerc was always overrated and nothing special. But if Vettel loses to Leclerc, his legacy will take a big hit. Vettel has little to gain and everything to lose.

The best scenario for Vettel would be if Leclerc wins races and looks strong, but Vettel still beats him overall, kind of like Hamilton-Rosberg.

I'm going to rephrase this into a question rather than an assertion. The question is; what happens to Sebastian Vettel if Leclerc proves to have the upper hand in the matchup?

It's a good question. With the amount of money that Vettel gets paid, losing to his teammate on pace/performance would be catastrophic to his career. It would almost guarantee that his time with Ferrari would come to an end after his contract is up. They won't pay him top dollar to be a #2 and he isn't wired to play second fiddle anyway. It might also spell the end to his time driving in the top cars (and potentially even the end of his F1 career in the most extreme of scenarios).

There are really only two top cars in F1 currently - Mercedes and Ferrari. Washing out at Ferrari in defeat would basically eliminate any chance of a Mercedes drive. It would mean that Ferrari will back Charles and that Hamilton will probably stay at Merc or if he retires, Max would likely be brought in to replace him. Renault have already signed Daniel so they won't be in the picture should their car come good. Ironically, Red Bull might be where he ends up if Max abandons ship and leaves a vacancy. Aside from that possibility, maybe McLaren might have an outside chance if they improve a little. It all becomes very uncertain doesn't it?

Honestly, I can't imagine that Vettel is happy about this signing at all. He knew where he stood against Kimi and now there is a complete unknown introduced to the equation. Charles is young and ambitious and will see Vettel as his main target. Vettel wants to be able to focus on beating Lewis without having to worry about an internal challenge. This is the last thing he needed (or wanted). His role as Ferrari's #1 wheelman (which was totally secure alongside Kimi) has come under threat here. We've seen in recent years with Alonso that no matter how good you are, you only get so many opportunities with the top teams. If Vettel washes out here, he might not get another chance, 4 WDCs or not.

Same for every top driver, to be fair. Hamilton faced the same risk when paired with Bottas, as did Vettel when paired with Kimi. If he's good enough, he'll come out on top. Not sure I'd agree that being beaten by Leclerc would in any way spell the end of his career. It wouldn't help his reputation, that's for sure, but there are any number of teams who would still fight to get a four times WDC in their car, and I'm including Red Bull and McLaren in that. Mercedes probably not, as they still have Hamilton anyway.

Still think this Leclerc expectation is all somewhat premature. To hear some he's already beaten Vettel and he hasn't actually sat in the car yet


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1648
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

What errors did he make in 2014 the only one I can remember was Hungary.


Also Vettel had a lot of failures in '14 dey just didn't all lead to a DNF.

2014 was one of his higher mistake years (I don't feel like going back to find them, look for them yourself if you're interested). you are correct in that he also absolutely had bad luck and bad reliability. He burned through engine components and had various technical problems all year while Daniel had a much cleaner run. I do think the mechanical issues created a lopsided view of the matchup to some extent. Funny how rarely the excuses bring this up. It's always some attempt to say Vettel was magically slower than he always is. The timing of the reliability struggles was also important. There were a handful of genuine opportunities for the Red Bulls to win and Daniel was always the guy to capitalize.


The burden of proof is on you, you made an assertion an I challenged you on it, it is up to you to tell me where outside of hungary he made mistakes.
No one is excusing anything folks are just saying Vettel was not performing at his best in '14 even his team principal says the same, but you seem caught up in this world that anything other than saying Ricciardo is better than Vettel means denigrating Ricciardo.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28442
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
While I agree with the notion that we shouldn't hype Leclerc too much until we actually know how good he is, I can't disagree more with what you've said about Daniel Ricciardo. So because you think that 2014 was an anomaly, we should just ignore the fact that Daniel bested Seb comprehensively that year? Not only that, you actually have the audacity to claim that you expect Vettel would beat him "consistently" if they were teamed together again. What's the point of having these races if people just ignore the results and make up their own conclusions?

The way that Daniel beat Seb doesn't suggest anomaly. It wasn't about crashes or mechanical failures. Daniel was just plain faster both on Saturdays and Sundays. That shouldn't be written off IMO.


Maybe just maybe, you need to check the dictionary for what an anomaly means.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but to look at '14 and truly believe that performance is the norm for Vettel suggests one should not take that opinion seriously.

Oh Vettel did have a sub-par season. That much is for sure but the fact is that, even during a sub-par season, a driver is not slower than they normally are. They might make more mistakes or have more misfortune but they are not slower. Daniel was faster than Seb. It's not just that he was more consistent or made fewer mistakes. He was faster not to mention he showed superior racecraft.

If the new cars frustrated Vettel so much, why was he able to do well immediately at Ferrari the following year under the same regulations? I just think some people are inclined to make excuses for Vettel's performance in 2014 but there is no empirical reason to do so. From what we saw, Daniel had the edge (other than in wet weather). While I would stop short of claiming that Daniel would always beat Seb, I would NOT simply ignore what happened over the course of 19 races that year. That's not fair to Daniel is it?


You are a very funny individual and I can see you have twisted yourself into a pretzel.

So on one hand you are arguing Vettel was at his best in '14 but Ricciardo was just better if I get your drift, also on the other hand you believe the Vettel in '15 at Ferrari had the same performance as the year before?

Interesting!

Well you can't prove otherwise because Vettel only did one season with Ricciardo then beating Kimi the year after doesn't mean he would do likewise with Ricciardo.

I think we can give Vettel the benefit of the doubt to an extent but in a situation were Ricciardo actually beat Vettel fair and square you can't really take the high ground.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm
Posts: 320
It is both a massive opportunity and a massive challenge for Charles. If he is comfortably off the pace of Vettel consistently then it will be hard to break that cycle. He has to work so so hard in pre season because 2019 probably dictates the remainder of his F1 career.

If he is immediately quick then he has an opportunity to get under Vettel's skin and send him packing.

You only have to look at Hamilton taking Mclaren from underneath Fernando, Verstappen becoming the Red Bull poster boy when Ricciardo looked like their future just a few years earlier. Button charming Martin Whitmarsh and having Mclaren built around him (ok they then didn't produce a car for him to take advantage of that sole number 1 status).


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mikeyg123 and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group