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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Rockie wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Wow. This bodes badly for Ferrari for the rest of the season. Vettel seemed to take it for granted Ferrari will stay faster, and help him recover points he lost.

Man, I wish I liked his driving talent as much as I like his personality. It's hard for me to admit, but he isn't on the level of true number 1s like Alonso & Hamilton.


How exactly?


How exactly what?


Is he not a true number 1 because he got out qualified?


Based on not just today. It's been dawning on me for a while. Not as good in racecraft as Ham/Alo, but maybe if he had more raw speed? But he doesn't seem to have that either. But maybe if he was better than them in pressure, or more consistent? No. Maybe better in the rain? No.

In very department, he seems to be a step or two below Ham/Alo. Hamilton and Alonso seem to be a bit better than each other in different departments. But Vettel seems a step below in every department. Today really showed me that maybe the last justification I had, raw speed, is also where he lacks.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:01 pm 
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I'll just call a spade a spade. I've seen very good laps and I've seen monster laps and will call the monster lap for what it is - a MONSTER lap! :D


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Why? Why was it better than, say, Kimi's pole last week?


Always looks better when you are 0.7 up on your team mate, rather than 0.170 Kimi was.

all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?

You just don't understand what we just saw and there lays your belief that Mercedes was simply the fastest car.
whereas your belief that the Mercerdes is slower is somehow down to a deeper understanding?

Bottas split the Ferraris and was only 7 hundredths of a second behind Vettel. Hamilton was a further 6 tenths up the road. What part of that would lead you to believe that the Mercs were slower today?

Honestly, if the situation had been reversed and it had been Vettel who was 6 tenths up the road, would you be doubting that the Ferrari was the quicker car, or would you be praising Vettel for an exceptional lap in a slower one?

Only if the car was expected to be quicker, look at the reaction in the Mercedes garage they were all surprised and shocked because they were expecting a Ferrari pole and also by the size of Hamilton's advantage, I think this is poor form but I guess not unexpected, it follows a theme.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:04 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
That was some lap from Hamilton. Verstapen too. It seems an ideal setup for a fun race tomorrow given that Ferrari have more pace than they showed there. Vettel will have to match Hamiltons Monza start and be aggresive, forget last year.

For elite level drivers such as the top three today, every so often they are capable of producing silly qualifying laps that make their rivals amd teammates look a bit stupid. Max and Lewis achieved that today.

This will be a tough one for Bottas to take. That's a simply huge margin. He needs to step up his game to be able to assist his team without having his strategy compromised.

This :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Did Kimi do a good job today?

Massa beat him by 0.8, Grosjean beat him twice by 0.6-0.7, Vettel 0.6-0.7.

0.160 today and his best performance by far since his only team mate win against Ferrari stand in Fisichella in 2009. I never realised how bad his record was.

Yep Kimi has always been poor so I would say that was his level which points a finger to Vettel.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout


This is a totally ridiculous attitude to take, there you can never say anyone ever did a good lap, merely team mates only did poor laps... There are no good drivers, only bad ones. You can argue that mercedes should have had a front row lock out, but you won't get very far with this as it's pretty ridiculous. If you're saying that it's only possible for a driver to do a bad lap, I'd definitely argue that both Ferrari drivers out in very poor laps, especially considering verstaappens lap, unless you're now gonna argue that red bull are ahead of Ferrari lol


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout

You just won't give Hamilton any credit, he basically nailed the perfect lap also he's faster than Bottas so then you get gaps like that, you could take apart every pole lap that Senna did using your criteria, they overlayed both Vettel and Hamilton's laps were Vettel was making mistakes and Hamilton didn't make one mistake.

:thumbdown:

I think Hamilton drove a very good lap. His team mate may not have gotten the best out of his car but you can't deny that Lewis did. Pulled it out when it counted and did a very good job.

I question the excessive (IMO) superlatives, because I think any driver who drops 6 tenths on his team mate has definitely not done a good job themselves.

I believe most people have said that both Hamilton and Verstappen did incredible laps but you choose to hone in more on Hamilton, Hamilton is not capable of such a high accolade it seems?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
That was some lap from Hamilton. Verstapen too. It seems an ideal setup for a fun race tomorrow given that Ferrari have more pace than they showed there. Vettel will have to match Hamiltons Monza start and be aggresive, forget last year.

For elite level drivers such as the top three today, every so often they are capable of producing silly qualifying laps that make their rivals amd teammates look a bit stupid. Max and Lewis achieved that today.

This will be a tough one for Bottas to take. That's a simply huge margin. He needs to step up his game to be able to assist his team without having his strategy compromised.

This :thumbup:


Agreed, Max also pulled out a special lap.
The plaudits will go to Lewis but Max was also out of this world.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:14 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
.

Trouble is I can't let such things go and need to call the person out on it.


I understand but it's bad for my blood pressure to engage.
Keep fighting the good fight buddy. :thumbup:

Well for the time being with it being such an obvious put down.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
That was some lap from Hamilton. Verstapen too. It seems an ideal setup for a fun race tomorrow given that Ferrari have more pace than they showed there. Vettel will have to match Hamiltons Monza start and be aggresive, forget last year.

For elite level drivers such as the top three today, every so often they are capable of producing silly qualifying laps that make their rivals amd teammates look a bit stupid. Max and Lewis achieved that today.

This will be a tough one for Bottas to take. That's a simply huge margin. He needs to step up his game to be able to assist his team without having his strategy compromised.

This :thumbup:


Agreed, Max also pulled out a special lap.
The plaudits will go to Lewis but Max was also out of this world.


I can give Verstappen a lot of credit for his qualifying performances, but I'd say about a 3rd of the time when he tries this hard in races, it has gone wrong this year. He needs to have a cautious start IMO or he could be in trouble.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:31 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
That was some lap from Hamilton. Verstapen too. It seems an ideal setup for a fun race tomorrow given that Ferrari have more pace than they showed there. Vettel will have to match Hamiltons Monza start and be aggresive, forget last year.

For elite level drivers such as the top three today, every so often they are capable of producing silly qualifying laps that make their rivals amd teammates look a bit stupid. Max and Lewis achieved that today.

This will be a tough one for Bottas to take. That's a simply huge margin. He needs to step up his game to be able to assist his team without having his strategy compromised.

This :thumbup:


Agreed, Max also pulled out a special lap.
The plaudits will go to Lewis but Max was also out of this world.


I can give Verstappen a lot of credit for his qualifying performances, but I'd say about a 3rd of the time when he tries this hard in races, it has gone wrong this year. He needs to have a cautious start IMO or he could be in trouble.


Max is favourite for me tomorrow.
Lewis cannot risk a 1st corner clash, Max can really go for it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:36 pm 
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For me it was significant that LH got pole so early in the session, you would expect the faster laps would towards the end of qualification as more rubber is laid down. That said MV's lap was achieved with a twitchy PU. All set up for an fascinating race. Vettel has to do something special to get in front of Hamilton to stay in touch.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:43 pm 
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Lewis' grand lap:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Hamilton and Verstappen sensational, mind-blowing.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Hamilton and Verstappen sensational, mind-blowing.

Truly


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:35 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
That was some lap from Hamilton. Verstapen too. It seems an ideal setup for a fun race tomorrow given that Ferrari have more pace than they showed there. Vettel will have to match Hamiltons Monza start and be aggresive, forget last year.

For elite level drivers such as the top three today, every so often they are capable of producing silly qualifying laps that make their rivals amd teammates look a bit stupid. Max and Lewis achieved that today.

This will be a tough one for Bottas to take. That's a simply huge margin. He needs to step up his game to be able to assist his team without having his strategy compromised.

This :thumbup:


Agreed, Max also pulled out a special lap.
The plaudits will go to Lewis but Max was also out of this world.


I can give Verstappen a lot of credit for his qualifying performances, but I'd say about a 3rd of the time when he tries this hard in races, it has gone wrong this year. He needs to have a cautious start IMO or he could be in trouble.


Max is favourite for me tomorrow.
Lewis cannot risk a 1st corner clash, Max can really go for it.

He actually said he would look not to crash in the first corner, I know easy said then done once you put the crash helmet on and of course as a Hamilton fan I hope he carries that out.

It's going to be a 2 stop race so if Verstappen is quick enough the race can be won without getting to the first corner first.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:36 pm 
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Amazing speed in that Mercedes


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:36 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
Amazing speed in that Mercedes

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Amazing speed in that Mercedes

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Nice to see you finally enjoy The gap


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:

No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout

You just won't give Hamilton any credit, he basically nailed the perfect lap also he's faster than Bottas so then you get gaps like that, you could take apart every pole lap that Senna did using your criteria, they overlayed both Vettel and Hamilton's laps were Vettel was making mistakes and Hamilton didn't make one mistake.

:thumbdown:

I think Hamilton drove a very good lap. His team mate may not have gotten the best out of his car but you can't deny that Lewis did. Pulled it out when it counted and did a very good job.

I question the excessive (IMO) superlatives, because I think any driver who drops 6 tenths on his team mate has definitely not done a good job themselves.

I believe most people have said that both Hamilton and Verstappen did incredible laps but you choose to hone in more on Hamilton, Hamilton is not capable of such a high accolade it seems?

I said he drove a very good lap. In the post which you replied to. That's not enough?

re: Verstappen I asked what made people think Hamilton's performance was better than Verstappen's, given the RBR's normal qualifying deficit


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:

No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout


So if Hamilton was slower today, by 0.4 the lap would be more impressive?

Are you suggesting that Bottas didn't under-perform?

You don't seem to understand that drivers are sometimes capable of incredible performances, I don't believe we would be having this conversation if the roles were reversed and Vettel was on pole?

are you suggesting that if the roles were reversed people wouldn't be saying that Ferrari had the better car? Be honest


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:59 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
Amazing speed in that Mercedes

Must be the driver :-P


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Even allowing for the length of the lap, the gaps between some team mates here is the largest of any race this year?

Perez quietly put 0.4 on Ocon. Then Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Leclerc all won by 0.65+. Grosjean too I think.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Even allowing for the length of the lap, the gaps between some team mates here is the largest of any race this year?

Perez quietly put 0.4 on Ocon. Then Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Leclerc all won by 0.65+. Grosjean too I think.

It's not just the length of the lap, it's the number of corners (23 of them) That's a lot of opportunities for a driver to make the difference, and a lot of opportunities for small mistakes to be made. I think Singapore traditionally provides the biggest gaps between team mates for that reason.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:04 pm 
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Well, even a hundereth lost in each corner is nearly 2 and a half tenths over a lap.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Zoue wrote:


are you suggesting that if the roles were reversed people wouldn't be saying that Ferrari had the better car? Be honest

Why you bringing the car into it? Pokerman was discussing the gap between Hamilton and Bottas. That has nothing to do with Mercedes being best car today.

Vettel did the same gap to Kimi last year and an amazing job and we all rightly sung his praises and hailed him as the Singapore specialist he is.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:28 pm 
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j man wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Even allowing for the length of the lap, the gaps between some team mates here is the largest of any race this year?

Perez quietly put 0.4 on Ocon. Then Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Leclerc all won by 0.65+. Grosjean too I think.

It's not just the length of the lap, it's the number of corners (23 of them) That's a lot of opportunities for a driver to make the difference, and a lot of opportunities for small mistakes to be made. I think Singapore traditionally provides the biggest gaps between team mates for that reason.


:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
He actually said he would look not to crash in the first corner, I know easy said then done once you put the crash helmet on and of course as a Hamilton fan I hope he carries that out.

It's going to be a 2 stop race so if Verstappen is quick enough the race can be won without getting to the first corner first.


For Hamilton he would like to beat MV but his race is with SV all he will want to do is finish in front of him. Hamilton will go for it but I'm not sure MV will go for a suicide overtake, he is only just erasing the "Crashstappen" tag. To take out LH or SV in such a crucial title race would be very difficult to recover from.

I sort of think that the race might be between Seb and Max at the first corner anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:35 pm 
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I don't know if this has been mentioned but surely Mercedes played a blinder by going out on the HS straight away in Q2 giving both drivers preparation for Q3. Ferrari went out on the US and then Vettels final lap was hindered, no time for preparation for Q3.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:38 pm 
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2017-2018 pace comparison.

Faster driver per team.

Fastest Sauber - 6.3 seconds quicker
Grosjean - 5.3 seconds quicker
Pérez - 4.3 seconds quicker
Hamilton- 4.1 seconds quicker
Verstappen- 3.5 seconds quicker
Vettel - 2.9 seconds quicker
Fastest Williams - 2.7 seconds quicker
Hülkenberg - 2.5 seconds quicker
Alonso - 2.5 second quicker
Fastest Toro Rosso - 2.2 seconds quicker


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:


are you suggesting that if the roles were reversed people wouldn't be saying that Ferrari had the better car? Be honest

Why you bringing the car into it? Pokerman was discussing the gap between Hamilton and Bottas. That has nothing to do with Mercedes being best car today.

Vettel did the same gap to Kimi last year and an amazing job and we all rightly sung his praises and hailed him as the Singapore specialist he is.


Regarding the last sentence: I thought so, too, at the time but today I learnt that it was just Räikkönen underperforming ...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:50 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout


So if Hamilton was slower today, by 0.4 the lap would be more impressive?

Are you suggesting that Bottas didn't under-perform?

You don't seem to understand that drivers are sometimes capable of incredible performances, I don't believe we would be having this conversation if the roles were reversed and Vettel was on pole?

are you suggesting that if the roles were reversed people wouldn't be saying that Ferrari had the better car? Be honest


Why are you acting like vettel extracted the max out of the Ferrari, both his and raikonnens (who is traditionally poor in Singapore) lap were bad laps, and I'm sure vettel given the chance with no pressure either etc would clearly smash his own lap time.

Are you trying to suggest that Merc was the best car, followed by red bull and then Ferrari? I don't understand what your point is


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:09 pm 
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When you strip away all the sentiment, today shows that ending Kimi's Ferrari stint is for the best. He again didn't hook it up in Q3 when there was a clear front row opportunity. I know Seb didn't either but he generally does.

I know Kimi has had a solid run of podiums, but hasn't taken any points off of Hamilton for quite some time (barring collisions).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:10 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Lewis' grand lap:


All you have to do is watch how smooth the steering action is. Hamilton makes very few steering corrections which shows you how well he drove that lap


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:11 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He actually said he would look not to crash in the first corner, I know easy said then done once you put the crash helmet on and of course as a Hamilton fan I hope he carries that out.

It's going to be a 2 stop race so if Verstappen is quick enough the race can be won without getting to the first corner first.


For Hamilton he would like to beat MV but his race is with SV all he will want to do is finish in front of him. Hamilton will go for it but I'm not sure MV will go for a suicide overtake, he is only just erasing the "Crashstappen" tag. To take out LH or SV in such a crucial title race would be very difficult to recover from.

I sort of think that the race might be between Seb and Max at the first corner anyway.


Crashtappen :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
2017-2018 pace comparison.

Faster driver per team.

Fastest Sauber - 6.3 seconds quicker
Grosjean - 5.3 seconds quicker
Pérez - 4.3 seconds quicker
Hamilton- 4.1 seconds quicker
Verstappen- 3.5 seconds quicker
Vettel - 2.9 seconds quicker
Fastest Williams - 2.7 seconds quicker
Hülkenberg - 2.5 seconds quicker
Alonso - 2.5 second quicker
Fastest Toro Rosso - 2.2 seconds quicker


Edit: I made a stupid comment, now realised what this is


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
You don't seem to understand that drivers are sometimes capable of incredible performances, I don't believe we would be having this conversation if the roles were reversed and Vettel was on pole?

You can bet your backside we would, most likely with you leading the way
.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:32 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Lewis' grand lap:


All you have to do is watch how smooth the steering action is. Hamilton makes very few steering corrections which shows you how well he drove that lap


Even mores so it shows how well his car set-up was!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You don't seem to understand that drivers are sometimes capable of incredible performances, I don't believe we would be having this conversation if the roles were reversed and Vettel was on pole?

You can bet your backside we would, most likely with you leading the way

Yep, I'm pretty sure we would.

Personally, I believe that what we saw today was a combination of a special lap by Hamilton and a poor lap by Vettel, and the cars were roughly equal.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:50 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Amazing speed in that Mercedes

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Nice to see you finally enjoy The gap

Yes I enjoyed the gap between the drivers.

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