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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Fiki wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Incredible banker lap. Not sure anyone's going to beat that.
Probably because it wasn't a banker lap.


Only technically as it was set on the first run, but not in the true sense of the word, no. That was probably the best qualifying lap we've seen in a while.

Why? Why was it better than, say, Kimi's pole last week?

How about:

The margin was far greater.
The Ferrari always looked to be the quickest car at Monza and one of them was expected to get pole. Kimi's team mate was in second.
Kimi's pole was at least partially attributable to slipstreaming.
Singapore is a more difficult circuit than Monza is.

It was a superb lap from Hamilton. However I wonder if Verstappen's was even better. That was more unexpected for me given Red Bull's lack of extra engine modes for qualifying.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Well, my view on this was that Ricciardo, Kimi, Bottas and Vettel were all about where we expected and all got decent times. verstappen and Hamilton were just so good on their best laps and managed a lot betetr than their team mates. I don't think it is a sign that either Ricciardo or Bottas are struggling this weekend as they both looked as strong or stronger earlier on today. Bottas was barely behind Vettel and Ferrari were certainly better than Mercedes. And Bottas also managed to beat Kimi and I don't think Kimi's lap was that bad. Verstappen and Hamilton were outstanding though and that made the difference.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:17 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Zoue wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Fiki wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Incredible banker lap. Not sure anyone's going to beat that.
Probably because it wasn't a banker lap.


Only technically as it was set on the first run, but not in the true sense of the word, no. That was probably the best qualifying lap we've seen in a while.

Why? Why was it better than, say, Kimi's pole last week?


Lol, dude give some credit for once and appreciate what you have just seen. What do you watch F1 for if you can't enjoy that lap.

I can and did enjoy the lap. It was clearly pretty good. I'm just wondering how we measure it. Max's was pretty special too, for example


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:18 pm 
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track temps? merc like cooler tracks. dont know how much it fell but pirellis are fickle things


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:18 pm 
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How good was Max? Just 3/10s off with an engine handicap? Absolutely nailed it.

If that Renault lump keeps its ghost and Max keeps his head, Max may have a chance tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Wow. This bodes badly for Ferrari for the rest of the season. Vettel seemed to take it for granted Ferrari will stay faster, and help him recover points he lost.

Man, I wish I liked his driving talent as much as I like his personality. It's hard for me to admit, but he isn't on the level of true number 1s like Alonso & Hamilton.


How exactly?


How exactly what?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:22 pm 
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chetan_rao wrote:
How good was Max? Just 3/10s off with an engine handicap? Absolutely nailed it.

If that Renault lump keeps its ghost and Max keeps his head, Max may have a chance tomorrow.


Engine deficit, sure, but maybe they are better than Merc in aero and chassis?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:23 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:23 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Rockie wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Wow. This bodes badly for Ferrari for the rest of the season. Vettel seemed to take it for granted Ferrari will stay faster, and help him recover points he lost.

Man, I wish I liked his driving talent as much as I like his personality. It's hard for me to admit, but he isn't on the level of true number 1s like Alonso & Hamilton.


How exactly?


How exactly what?


Is he not a true number 1 because he got out qualified?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Incredible lap by Hamilton.

Was the temperature a factor in all that shuffling in q3? Or what was that all about.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout


So if Hamilton was slower today, by 0.4 the lap would be more impressive?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:27 pm 
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The first ultrasoft run in Q2 for Ferrari looks to have compromised going through Q3 in the most optimum way. Seb should have been another 3-5 tenths closer to pole. Even then Lewis would still have got pole. Stonking lap! 79 Pole positions and counting...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout


So if Hamilton was slower today, by 0.4 the lap would be more impressive?


Verstappen would have beaten him.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:28 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
How good was Max? Just 3/10s off with an engine handicap? Absolutely nailed it.

If that Renault lump keeps its ghost and Max keeps his head, Max may have a chance tomorrow.


Engine deficit, sure, but maybe they are better than Merc in aero and chassis?


One of my regrets of the turbo era. I'd have loved to see what RB could've achieved with a Merc or Ferrari engine.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout


So if Hamilton was slower today, by 0.4 the lap would be more impressive?


Verstappen would have beaten him.


So I assume at this point we should all then pile on Ricciardo for being so poor. It's a really, really odd position to take, and totally rules out the idea of someone performing better while the team mate does the average.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:

So if Hamilton was slower today, by 0.4 the lap would be more impressive?


Verstappen would have beaten him.


So I assume at this point we should all then pile on Ricciardo for being so poor. It's a really, really odd position to take, and totally rules out the idea of someone performing better while the team mate does the average.


When your team mate beats you by a large margin its a poor job, irrespective except you believe where the poor team mate is, is where the car is an magically the other driver has extra horsepower.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:34 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Fiki wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Incredible banker lap. Not sure anyone's going to beat that.
Probably because it wasn't a banker lap.


Only technically as it was set on the first run, but not in the true sense of the word, no. That was probably the best qualifying lap we've seen in a while.

Why? Why was it better than, say, Kimi's pole last week?

You simply don't understand

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Lewis described his lap as magic.

That it was.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Fiki wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Incredible banker lap. Not sure anyone's going to beat that.
Probably because it wasn't a banker lap.


Only technically as it was set on the first run, but not in the true sense of the word, no. That was probably the best qualifying lap we've seen in a while.

Why? Why was it better than, say, Kimi's pole last week?

You simply don't understand


If you give those kind of posts the attention they so clearly seek, they will be repeated.
If you ignore the ridiculous it skulks back into it's corner and disappears.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:

So if Hamilton was slower today, by 0.4 the lap would be more impressive?


Verstappen would have beaten him.


So I assume at this point we should all then pile on Ricciardo for being so poor. It's a really, really odd position to take, and totally rules out the idea of someone performing better while the team mate does the average.


When your team mate beats you by a large margin its a poor job, irrespective except you believe where the poor team mate is, is where the car is an magically the other driver has extra horsepower.


Which Singapore Vettel qualifying lap do you rate highest?

2018- 0.150 ahead of Kimi
2017- 0.550 ahead of Kimi
2016- no time
2015- 0.800 ahead of Kimi


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Probably because it wasn't a banker lap.


Only technically as it was set on the first run, but not in the true sense of the word, no. That was probably the best qualifying lap we've seen in a while.

Why? Why was it better than, say, Kimi's pole last week?


Always looks better when you are 0.7 up on your team mate, rather than 0.170 Kimi was.

all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?

You just don't understand what we just saw and there lays your belief that Mercedes was simply the fastest car.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout


So if Hamilton was slower today, by 0.4 the lap would be more impressive?

Are you suggesting that Bottas didn't under-perform?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:41 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout


So if Hamilton was slower today, by 0.4 the lap would be more impressive?

Are you suggesting that Bottas didn't under-perform?


He did say himself he had another 0.1 in the car but Lewis did a special lap. Similar to what Webber said about some of Vettels Singapore laps.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:

Only technically as it was set on the first run, but not in the true sense of the word, no. That was probably the best qualifying lap we've seen in a while.

Why? Why was it better than, say, Kimi's pole last week?


Always looks better when you are 0.7 up on your team mate, rather than 0.170 Kimi was.

all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?

You just don't understand what we just saw and there lays your belief that Mercedes was simply the fastest car.
whereas your belief that the Mercerdes is slower is somehow down to a deeper understanding?

Bottas split the Ferraris and was only 7 hundredths of a second behind Vettel. Hamilton was a further 6 tenths up the road. What part of that would lead you to believe that the Mercs were slower today?

Honestly, if the situation had been reversed and it had been Vettel who was 6 tenths up the road, would you be doubting that the Ferrari was the quicker car, or would you be praising Vettel for an exceptional lap in a slower one?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:44 pm 
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What a difference between fastest and slowest. 5.319 seconds. Those saying Stroll and his team mate did well last weekend, well I think it was heavily down to the car being decent there. Overall, this williams is dreadful at most circuits and the drivers are pretty bad too.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:47 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Probably because it wasn't a banker lap.


Only technically as it was set on the first run, but not in the true sense of the word, no. That was probably the best qualifying lap we've seen in a while.

Why? Why was it better than, say, Kimi's pole last week?

You simply don't understand


If you give those kind of posts the attention they so clearly seek, they will be repeated.
If you ignore the ridiculous it skulks back into it's corner and disappears.

and your definition of ignoring them is to crawl out of the woodwork and make disparaging comments about them? How does this help, exactly?

You have form for this, of course, as you've done it before. I suggest you're the one who tends to skulk back into your corner after making comments like this


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout

You just won't give Hamilton any credit, he basically nailed the perfect lap also he's faster than Bottas so then you get gaps like that, you could take apart every pole lap that Senna did using your criteria, they overlayed both Vettel and Hamilton's laps were Vettel was making mistakes and Hamilton didn't make one mistake.

:thumbdown:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Are you suggesting that Bottas didn't under-perform?


He did say himself he had another 0.1 in the car but Lewis did a special lap. Similar to what Webber said about some of Vettels Singapore laps.


I think that hamilton and Verstappen were just standing well above the rest this session. I don't think Bottas did underperform as his times were still very fast and simialr to the last session. And in the last session, q1 and practice 3, he was as quick as Hamilton. Ricciardo also looked to be as strong as Verstappen until Q3. Hamilton and Verstappen jumped on it and were outstanding. Bottas was was between 2 ferraris and ahead of a red bull, which given what we expected, is not actually bad. Vettel was only fractionaly ahead of him too. I don't think any of the drivers that qualified in 2nd to 6th positions did a poor job today. In fact I think they all looked solid and quick all day. Verstappen and Hamilton just found that special lap right at the end. When I saw the replay of Hamilton's lap, it looked very clean at the same time as much more aggressive and quicker than many others. Bottas's looked very good too. He went wide on the last corner but that won't have cost him much. Ricciardo and Bottas were well behind their team mates, but I don't think either had a poor lap. It was just the total opposite with their team mates.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout


So if Hamilton was slower today, by 0.4 the lap would be more impressive?


Verstappen would have beaten him.


So I assume at this point we should all then pile on Ricciardo for being so poor. It's a really, really odd position to take, and totally rules out the idea of someone performing better while the team mate does the average.

I think you will find such reasoning is dependent on the driver concerned. :nod:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:53 pm 
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That was some lap from Hamilton. Verstapen too. It seems an ideal setup for a fun race tomorrow given that Ferrari have more pace than they showed there. Vettel will have to match Hamiltons Monza start and be aggresive, forget last year.

For elite level drivers such as the top three today, every so often they are capable of producing silly qualifying laps that make their rivals amd teammates look a bit stupid. Max and Lewis achieved that today.

This will be a tough one for Bottas to take. That's a simply huge margin. He needs to step up his game to be able to assist his team without having his strategy compromised.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Did Kimi do a good job today?

Massa beat him by 0.8, Grosjean beat him twice by 0.6-0.7, Vettel 0.6-0.7.

0.160 today and his best performance by far since his only team mate win against Ferrari stand in Fisichella in 2009. I never realised how bad his record was.


Last edited by Johnson on Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:54 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Probably because it wasn't a banker lap.


Only technically as it was set on the first run, but not in the true sense of the word, no. That was probably the best qualifying lap we've seen in a while.

Why? Why was it better than, say, Kimi's pole last week?

You simply don't understand


If you give those kind of posts the attention they so clearly seek, they will be repeated.
If you ignore the ridiculous it skulks back into it's corner and disappears.

Trouble is I can't let such things go and need to call the person out on it.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout

You just won't give Hamilton any credit, he basically nailed the perfect lap also he's faster than Bottas so then you get gaps like that, you could take apart every pole lap that Senna did using your criteria, they overlayed both Vettel and Hamilton's laps were Vettel was making mistakes and Hamilton didn't make one mistake.

:thumbdown:

I think Hamilton drove a very good lap. His team mate may not have gotten the best out of his car but you can't deny that Lewis did. Pulled it out when it counted and did a very good job.

I question the excessive (IMO) superlatives, because I think any driver who drops 6 tenths on his team mate has definitely not done a good job themselves.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:56 pm 
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I don't want Lewis to win but that was one Epic lap.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:57 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
all that means is your team mate was poor. If he drops that far behind then clearly he's not performing well enough.

Are we saying that if Bottas had managed to hook it up properly that would have made Hamilton's lap less good somehow?


No not all. 2 variables, Hamiltons speed and Bottas' speed. You are just focusing on 1 of those vairables by saying all. 2 things are at play.

No. If you beat your team mate by 6 tenths then that means your team mate left at least 6 tenths on the table. Which means your team mate drove a poor lap. One or two tenths tends to indicate one team mate was just better. Such a large gap means one under-performed quite heavily. Could argue that Mercedes should have had a front row lockout


So if Hamilton was slower today, by 0.4 the lap would be more impressive?

Are you suggesting that Bottas didn't under-perform?

You don't seem to understand that drivers are sometimes capable of incredible performances, I don't believe we would be having this conversation if the roles were reversed and Vettel was on pole?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
.

Trouble is I can't let such things go and need to call the person out on it.


I understand but it's bad for my blood pressure to engage.
Keep fighting the good fight buddy. :thumbup:


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