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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:27 am 
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Does anybody know why Verstappen was penalised at Monza but Vettel not even investigated in Austria for his move on Hamilton?

I could be wrong, but the rule to me is you have to leave a cars width for a car on corner entry. The track is defined by the white lines. In both circumstances, the Mercedes has some kerb next to it. Hamilton went onto it to avoid Vettel. The normal racing line is not using kerb there. Bottas didn't use the bit of kerb so they collided. If Hamilton hadn't have moved out the way, would Vettel have got a penalty? Isn't it still a penalty for Vettel? Or maybe Verstappen was treated harshly here?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:43 am 
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What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?

I think Hamilton did that precisely for the reason above, you want to be over aggressive so can I, it's an interesting psyche were a driver can do something to another driver but complains when he's on the receiving end.

In respect to what was different with Verstappen is first there was no contact and second Hamilton didn't have to go completely off the track.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:42 am 
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pokerman wrote:
In respect to what was different with Verstappen is first there was no contact and second Hamilton didn't have to go completely off the track.

That, and Verstappen was already on a warning from Charlie for cutting the chicane while defending from Bottas. That may well have tipped the scales into penalty territory, since he had made two unfair moves instead of one.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:49 am 
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The fact is that Verstappen is a HABITUAL bully and has used his car in this fashion countless times so he is going to be watched and scrutinized closely. At that stage of the race Bottas was considerably faster and was going to pass him no matter what if he didn’t make a mistake, which he didn’t.

Had his intension been that of a purely defensive manor he’d not have incurred a penalty, but the move clearly carried motive to intimidate Bottas not only out of that move, but also from attempting any future overtaking attempts. That’s how this kid operates and I wish he wouldn’t resort to such practices because he’s quite talented and doesn’t need to do those types of things. He doesn’t have the car so he needs to think better of the complete picture and had he accepted that Bottas was passing him no matter what, he’d have finished 4th and raked in a few more points, not only for
Himself, but his team as well.

As I said in another thread, I’d have pitted and retired him when he said he knew his stupidity was costing him time to Vettel but he didn’t care. The gonads on this kid are a bit too big for his underoos.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:32 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
As I said in another thread, I’d have pitted and retired him when he said he knew his stupidity was costing him time to Vettel but he didn’t care. The gonads on this kid are a bit too big for his underoos.

Max is running that team now. They weren't willing to call him out on DNFing both cars in Baku, and now they won't control him when he throws away points by being willfully stupid. This behavior will cost them in a championship fight, if they reach one with Max and he hasn't fixed his attitude.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:56 am 
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If Hamilton hadn't moved out of the way then Vettel probably would have gotten a 5 second penalty. Drivers push each other off the circuit all the time but usually there's concrete run off and the one on the outside just leaves the track. We saw in Bahrain as well where Verstappen tried to push Hamilton off the track but he just didn't move and they crashed. Verstappen got a penalty there as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:24 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
If Hamilton hadn't moved out of the way then Vettel probably would have gotten a 5 second penalty. Drivers push each other off the circuit all the time but usually there's concrete run off and the one on the outside just leaves the track. We saw in Bahrain as well where Verstappen tried to push Hamilton off the track but he just didn't move and they crashed. Verstappen got a penalty there as well.

That's also true. Drivers do plenty of things that are only a collision away from a penalty, and you're always more likely to get a penalty if there is actual contact than if you simply break the rules.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:43 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If Hamilton hadn't moved out of the way then Vettel probably would have gotten a 5 second penalty. Drivers push each other off the circuit all the time but usually there's concrete run off and the one on the outside just leaves the track. We saw in Bahrain as well where Verstappen tried to push Hamilton off the track but he just didn't move and they crashed. Verstappen got a penalty there as well.

That's also true. Drivers do plenty of things that are only a collision away from a penalty, and you're always more likely to get a penalty if there is actual contact than if you simply break the rules.


I would say that if you break the rules in a racing standards sense but don't cause a collision you have almost no chance of getting a penalty. We see that every race.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:22 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If Hamilton hadn't moved out of the way then Vettel probably would have gotten a 5 second penalty. Drivers push each other off the circuit all the time but usually there's concrete run off and the one on the outside just leaves the track. We saw in Bahrain as well where Verstappen tried to push Hamilton off the track but he just didn't move and they crashed. Verstappen got a penalty there as well.

That's also true. Drivers do plenty of things that are only a collision away from a penalty, and you're always more likely to get a penalty if there is actual contact than if you simply break the rules.

I would say that if you break the rules in a racing standards sense but don't cause a collision you have almost no chance of getting a penalty. We see that every race.

Yeah, I can think of one or two incidents over the last few years where a driver was awarded a penalty for dangerous driving without an actual collision, but in almost all of those incidents some car was actually run off the road at high speed rather than simply into a braking zone. Sadly, forcing another driver off track has become so commonplace that you only get a penalty if you screw it up.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:22 am 
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I think the fact Verstappen did that at one of the fastest points on the F1 calendar, and one of the biggest braking zones in the F1 calendar. An area with no run off, and the scene of a massive crash, where a car took to the grass under braking, just a couple of days before. The move was a whisker away from a high energy crash and DNF for one or both cars. I'd go as far to say the 5 sec penalty was fairly lenient.

This Verstappen move/defend in the braking zone has cost Red Bull quite a bit this year. Baku and here are all points lost.

The FIA need to be harder on the moving in the braking zone, it will cause a huge accident again (ie Perez v Massa in Canada) Once you are braking near the edge of traction, any steering input will require a reduction in brake pressure, or you will lock wheels and sledge straight on. The rear driver, when braking, can't just move out the way, even if there is space to. F1 cars brake immensely in straight lines, and stopping rate reduces quickly with any deviation from that straight line. It's the first thing you get taught on any performance driving course.


Last edited by Badgeronimous on Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:34 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:24 am 
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I couldn't understand why Max wasn't told to concede the position to Bottas after he went over the first corner. He made a mistake under pressure; Valtteri managed to keep it on the track, and wouldn't have hit Verstappen if he'd not taken to the off-road.

Yet Verstappen went over the runoff and kept the position, when in any other circumstance he would certainly have lost the place. To make it worse, the team said Charlie had talked to them about it and that was his one warning. Why did he even get a warning? Cutting the track is cutting the track.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:20 am 
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If there was grass there for the Vettel incident Hamilton would have nowhere to go, they would crash and it would be a penalty.

I'd be interested to see what would have happened if Hamilton hadn't moved and they crashed. Though technically illegal as Vettel wouldn't be leaving a cars width to the white line I get the feeling it wouldn't be penalised as Hamilton could use the kerb. I'd be interested to see what view the stewards would take on it though.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:53 am 
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In this incident it's not what Verstappen did on the track that earned my contempt, rather it's his mindset after being penalised. It's clear that his improved on track behaviour in recent races is not down to careful consideration of the consequences of his actions in the past which directly led to him scoring less points, rather it's a conscious effort to suppress his instincts under instruction from the team.

He still believes he was in the right, both yesterday and in the past, and IMO in so doing demonstrates that he's not very bright!

My wife is a teacher of 3 to 4 year old children, many, even at that age have learnt to modify their behaviour in a social group so as to avoid 'trouble', it seems to me that Verstappen might have benefited from more time in school and less time in a kart!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?


I assume you mean when Lewis did leave Sebastian plenty of space (which is proved by endless amount of footage and photos). Lewis did not turn in to Sebastian. It was Seb that collided with Lewis. He had the normal line, Seb simply lost a touch of grip.

Sebastian is just moaning that luck went against him and he went out. As mentioned by other commentators that normally it would be the other driver that loses out. This is just another incident where both drivers went for a gap and no one was backing down. This incident is nothing compared to driving in to another car forcing them off the road. Both Lewis and Seb had space. Neither got forced off. Seb lost out because he lost grip and made contact.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:44 am 
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Toby. wrote:
I couldn't understand why Max wasn't told to concede the position to Bottas after he went over the first corner. He made a mistake under pressure; Valtteri managed to keep it on the track, and wouldn't have hit Verstappen if he'd not taken to the off-road.

Yet Verstappen went over the runoff and kept the position, when in any other circumstance he would certainly have lost the place. To make it worse, the team said Charlie had talked to them about it and that was his one warning. Why did he even get a warning? Cutting the track is cutting the track.


I agree, if Max had slowed down enough to make the corner, which would pretty much be crawling, then Bottas would have passed him around the outside.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:45 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
As I said in another thread, I’d have pitted and retired him when he said he knew his stupidity was costing him time to Vettel but he didn’t care. The gonads on this kid are a bit too big for his underoos.

Max is running that team now. They weren't willing to call him out on DNFing both cars in Baku, and now they won't control him when he throws away points by being willfully stupid. This behavior will cost them in a championship fight, if they reach one with Max and he hasn't fixed his attitude.


Red Bull have created the next F1 Superstar and he's acting like it, Ricciardo is well out of that team if you ask me.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:59 am 
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ALESI wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
As I said in another thread, I’d have pitted and retired him when he said he knew his stupidity was costing him time to Vettel but he didn’t care. The gonads on this kid are a bit too big for his underoos.

Max is running that team now. They weren't willing to call him out on DNFing both cars in Baku, and now they won't control him when he throws away points by being willfully stupid. This behavior will cost them in a championship fight, if they reach one with Max and he hasn't fixed his attitude.


Red Bull have created the next F1 Superstar and he's acting like it, Ricciardo is well out of that team if you ask me.


Ricciardo is well on his way to being Webber'd. Already seeing it with the mechanical issues and luck - very much like Webber who seemed to always get issues.

Ashame as, unlike Webber v Seb, I think he is the better (all round) driver of the two - although Max has a higher potential. There certainly is not anywhere near the gap between them as there was Webber/Vettel.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:20 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
If Hamilton hadn't moved out of the way then Vettel probably would have gotten a 5 second penalty. Drivers push each other off the circuit all the time but usually there's concrete run off and the one on the outside just leaves the track. We saw in Bahrain as well where Verstappen tried to push Hamilton off the track but he just didn't move and they crashed. Verstappen got a penalty there as well.

Actually Verstappen diidn't get a penalty, maybe because he punctured his rear tyre and ended up retiring?

One of the things I don't like about this 5 second penalty is that many a time when a car gets hit it gets damaged, the penalty for me doesn't penalise for wanton damage done to your opponents car.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:23 am 
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Toby. wrote:
I couldn't understand why Max wasn't told to concede the position to Bottas after he went over the first corner. He made a mistake under pressure; Valtteri managed to keep it on the track, and wouldn't have hit Verstappen if he'd not taken to the off-road.

Yet Verstappen went over the runoff and kept the position, when in any other circumstance he would certainly have lost the place. To make it worse, the team said Charlie had talked to them about it and that was his one warning. Why did he even get a warning? Cutting the track is cutting the track.

Drivers normally get a warning first when they are in the defensive position.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:26 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?


I assume you mean when Lewis did leave Sebastian plenty of space (which is proved by endless amount of footage and photos). Lewis did not turn in to Sebastian. It was Seb that collided with Lewis. He had the normal line, Seb simply lost a touch of grip.

Sebastian is just moaning that luck went against him and he went out. As mentioned by other commentators that normally it would be the other driver that loses out. This is just another incident where both drivers went for a gap and no one was backing down. This incident is nothing compared to driving in to another car forcing them off the road. Both Lewis and Seb had space. Neither got forced off. Seb lost out because he lost grip and made contact.

You're talking about Monza I'm talking about Spa were Hamilton paid Vettel the compliment back for what happened in the caption above.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:30 am 
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pokerman wrote:
What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?

I think Hamilton did that precisely for the reason above, you want to be over aggressive so can I, it's an interesting psyche were a driver can do something to another driver but complains when he's on the receiving end.

In respect to what was different with Verstappen is first there was no contact and second Hamilton didn't have to go completely off the track.


You are comparing apples and oranges.

The incidents are different.

In Spa Vettel was trying to overtake Hamilton, but at Austria Vettel had the overtake done and was trying to prevent the cut back.

Also i suppose you intentionally took the stills after Hamilton had pushed Vettel on the grass before the corner as it does not suit the point you are trying to make.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:32 am 
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ALESI wrote:
I agree, if Max had slowed down enough to make the corner, which would pretty much be crawling, then Bottas would have passed him around the outside.


To be fair the stewards do seem to be fairly consistent on this. If you are fully ahead and miss your breaking point, cut a corner and retain your position then they will let it go, possibly a one time deal only. Do it again and you might get penalised. We have seen this happen quite a few times, Rosberg cutting the final chicane ahead of Hamilton in Canada for instance. Can't say I am particulary a fan, but it is at least consistent.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:41 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Does anybody know why Verstappen was penalised at Monza but Vettel not even investigated in Austria for his move on Hamilton?

I could be wrong, but the rule to me is you have to leave a cars width for a car on corner entry. The track is defined by the white lines. In both circumstances, the Mercedes has some kerb next to it. Hamilton went onto it to avoid Vettel. The normal racing line is not using kerb there. Bottas didn't use the bit of kerb so they collided. If Hamilton hadn't have moved out the way, would Vettel have got a penalty? Isn't it still a penalty for Vettel? Or maybe Verstappen was treated harshly here?
Yes, you are wrong about the rule. A driver only has to leave a car's width of room on the approach to a corner, if he had gone off the racing line in defence of his position, and on moving back towards the racing line.

The difference between the two cases is that Vettel was attacking, while Verstappen was defending. So only Max was bound by the obligation to leave a car's width of space to his left. Which, as you could see, he failed to do.
Vettel didn't have to, and didn't.

I don't like the fact that F1 allows drivers to run competitors off the track in some cases, but perhaps I forget too readily it isn't a sport anymore.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?

I think Hamilton did that precisely for the reason above, you want to be over aggressive so can I, it's an interesting psyche were a driver can do something to another driver but complains when he's on the receiving end.

In respect to what was different with Verstappen is first there was no contact and second Hamilton didn't have to go completely off the track.


You are comparing apples and oranges.

The incidents are different.

In Spa Vettel was trying to overtake Hamilton, but at Austria Vettel had the overtake done and was trying to prevent the cut back.

Also i suppose you intentionally took the stills after Hamilton had pushed Vettel on the grass before the corner as it does not suit the point you are trying to make.


At which point did that happen?
Looks like he leaves 1.5 car widths to me...

https://youtu.be/qZImCqeeXag?t=13s

Please give the exact second of the push onto the grass and I will gladly make the stills for you Rockie.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?

I think Hamilton did that precisely for the reason above, you want to be over aggressive so can I, it's an interesting psyche were a driver can do something to another driver but complains when he's on the receiving end.

In respect to what was different with Verstappen is first there was no contact and second Hamilton didn't have to go completely off the track.


You are comparing apples and oranges.

The incidents are different.

In Spa Vettel was trying to overtake Hamilton, but at Austria Vettel had the overtake done and was trying to prevent the cut back.

Also i suppose you intentionally took the stills after Hamilton had pushed Vettel on the grass before the corner as it does not suit the point you are trying to make.

There not different at all, Vettel ran Hamilton wide to ruin his run down the next straight, at Spa Hamilton did likewise to Vettel and I believe that was pay back.

I didn't present the stills so I'm not sure what your on about on that one?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:18 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Does anybody know why Verstappen was penalised at Monza but Vettel not even investigated in Austria for his move on Hamilton?

I could be wrong, but the rule to me is you have to leave a cars width for a car on corner entry. The track is defined by the white lines. In both circumstances, the Mercedes has some kerb next to it. Hamilton went onto it to avoid Vettel. The normal racing line is not using kerb there. Bottas didn't use the bit of kerb so they collided. If Hamilton hadn't have moved out the way, would Vettel have got a penalty? Isn't it still a penalty for Vettel? Or maybe Verstappen was treated harshly here?
Yes, you are wrong about the rule. A driver only has to leave a car's width of room on the approach to a corner, if he had gone off the racing line in defence of his position, and on moving back towards the racing line.

The difference between the two cases is that Vettel was attacking, while Verstappen was defending. So only Max was bound by the obligation to leave a car's width of space to his left. Which, as you could see, he failed to do.
Vettel didn't have to, and didn't.

I don't like the fact that F1 allows drivers to run competitors off the track in some cases, but perhaps I forget too readily it isn't a sport anymore.

You really think that Vettel would have been alright to bang wheels with Hamilton and run him off the track?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:31 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?

I think Hamilton did that precisely for the reason above, you want to be over aggressive so can I, it's an interesting psyche were a driver can do something to another driver but complains when he's on the receiving end.

In respect to what was different with Verstappen is first there was no contact and second Hamilton didn't have to go completely off the track.


You are comparing apples and oranges.

The incidents are different.

In Spa Vettel was trying to overtake Hamilton, but at Austria Vettel had the overtake done and was trying to prevent the cut back.

Also i suppose you intentionally took the stills after Hamilton had pushed Vettel on the grass before the corner as it does not suit the point you are trying to make.


At which point did that happen?
Looks like he leaves 1.5 car widths to me...

https://youtu.be/qZImCqeeXag?t=13s

Please give the exact second of the push onto the grass and I will gladly make the stills for you Rockie.


After the 13s.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?

I think Hamilton did that precisely for the reason above, you want to be over aggressive so can I, it's an interesting psyche were a driver can do something to another driver but complains when he's on the receiving end.

In respect to what was different with Verstappen is first there was no contact and second Hamilton didn't have to go completely off the track.


You are comparing apples and oranges.

The incidents are different.

In Spa Vettel was trying to overtake Hamilton, but at Austria Vettel had the overtake done and was trying to prevent the cut back.

Also i suppose you intentionally took the stills after Hamilton had pushed Vettel on the grass before the corner as it does not suit the point you are trying to make.

There not different at all, Vettel ran Hamilton wide to ruin his run down the next straight, at Spa Hamilton did likewise to Vettel and I believe that was pay back.

I didn't present the stills so I'm not sure what your on about on that one?


So that move was ok as a payback, but you argued Vettel at Singapore '17 was wrong.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:00 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?

I think Hamilton did that precisely for the reason above, you want to be over aggressive so can I, it's an interesting psyche were a driver can do something to another driver but complains when he's on the receiving end.

In respect to what was different with Verstappen is first there was no contact and second Hamilton didn't have to go completely off the track.


You are comparing apples and oranges.

The incidents are different.

In Spa Vettel was trying to overtake Hamilton, but at Austria Vettel had the overtake done and was trying to prevent the cut back.

Also i suppose you intentionally took the stills after Hamilton had pushed Vettel on the grass before the corner as it does not suit the point you are trying to make.


At which point did that happen?
Looks like he leaves 1.5 car widths to me...

https://youtu.be/qZImCqeeXag?t=13s

Please give the exact second of the push onto the grass and I will gladly make the stills for you Rockie.


After the 13s.


That is very vague. At which exact point did Hamilton not leave more than a cars width? It appears there was actually at least 1.5 car widths throughout.

Pause the video at the exact moment you feel this happened. Click share, copy and paste the link here and it will start at that exact moment.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?

I think Hamilton did that precisely for the reason above, you want to be over aggressive so can I, it's an interesting psyche were a driver can do something to another driver but complains when he's on the receiving end.

In respect to what was different with Verstappen is first there was no contact and second Hamilton didn't have to go completely off the track.


You are comparing apples and oranges.

The incidents are different.

In Spa Vettel was trying to overtake Hamilton, but at Austria Vettel had the overtake done and was trying to prevent the cut back.

Also i suppose you intentionally took the stills after Hamilton had pushed Vettel on the grass before the corner as it does not suit the point you are trying to make.

There not different at all, Vettel ran Hamilton wide to ruin his run down the next straight, at Spa Hamilton did likewise to Vettel and I believe that was pay back.

I didn't present the stills so I'm not sure what your on about on that one?


So that move was ok as a payback, but you argued Vettel at Singapore '17 was wrong.


Hamilton did not push Vettel off track at Spa, re-watch it. He left about 1.1 car widths. It was right on the limit but he left space.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Hamilton putting "Vettel on the grass" whilst leaving 1.5 car widths for him.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Sorry double posted for some reason


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:13 pm 
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Bottas also "putting Vettel on the grass" Spain 2017

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Sorry double posted for some reason
Would you mind telling me what you thought of my post? I said you were wrong about the rule... ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Does anybody know why Verstappen was penalised at Monza but Vettel not even investigated in Austria for his move on Hamilton?

I could be wrong, but the rule to me is you have to leave a cars width for a car on corner entry. The track is defined by the white lines. In both circumstances, the Mercedes has some kerb next to it. Hamilton went onto it to avoid Vettel. The normal racing line is not using kerb there. Bottas didn't use the bit of kerb so they collided. If Hamilton hadn't have moved out the way, would Vettel have got a penalty? Isn't it still a penalty for Vettel? Or maybe Verstappen was treated harshly here?
Yes, you are wrong about the rule. A driver only has to leave a car's width of room on the approach to a corner, if he had gone off the racing line in defence of his position, and on moving back towards the racing line.

The difference between the two cases is that Vettel was attacking, while Verstappen was defending. So only Max was bound by the obligation to leave a car's width of space to his left. Which, as you could see, he failed to do.
Vettel didn't have to, and didn't.

I don't like the fact that F1 allows drivers to run competitors off the track in some cases, but perhaps I forget too readily it isn't a sport anymore.

You really think that Vettel would have been alright to bang wheels with Hamilton and run him off the track?
I don't understand why you ask me. Vettel didn't bang wheels there, because Hamilton avoided him - possibly in order to try for a switchback. But the point is that the rule requiring a driver to leave a car's width of space isn't applicable in that case.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Sorry double posted for some reason
Would you mind telling me what you thought of my post? I said you were wrong about the rule... ;)


The interpretation you put forward I have never heard before. I have never heard a distinction between overtaking/ being overtaken. My understanding is, you leave a cars width on corner entry, crowding is against the rules.

Your interpretation, suggests that Verstappens move would have been legal if it was identical but Verstappen was doing the overtaking. If two cars arrive at a braking zone side by side what is the relevance of which one was ahead 5 seconds ago? For me, there is no distinction between overtaking/ being overtaken.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Does anybody know why Verstappen was penalised at Monza but Vettel not even investigated in Austria for his move on Hamilton?

I could be wrong, but the rule to me is you have to leave a cars width for a car on corner entry. The track is defined by the white lines. In both circumstances, the Mercedes has some kerb next to it. Hamilton went onto it to avoid Vettel. The normal racing line is not using kerb there. Bottas didn't use the bit of kerb so they collided. If Hamilton hadn't have moved out the way, would Vettel have got a penalty? Isn't it still a penalty for Vettel? Or maybe Verstappen was treated harshly here?
Yes, you are wrong about the rule. A driver only has to leave a car's width of room on the approach to a corner, if he had gone off the racing line in defence of his position, and on moving back towards the racing line.

The difference between the two cases is that Vettel was attacking, while Verstappen was defending. So only Max was bound by the obligation to leave a car's width of space to his left. Which, as you could see, he failed to do.
Vettel didn't have to, and didn't.

I don't like the fact that F1 allows drivers to run competitors off the track in some cases, but perhaps I forget too readily it isn't a sport anymore.


@ Fiki, which rule are you referring to??? You keep referring to the rules but you never actually site the rule you are justifying. So here is a link to the rules please prove your point

https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:53 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Sorry double posted for some reason
Would you mind telling me what you thought of my post? I said you were wrong about the rule... ;)


The interpretation you put forward I have never heard before. I have never heard a distinction between overtaking/ being overtaken. My understanding is, you leave a cars width on corner entry, crowding is against the rules.

Your interpretation, suggests that Verstappens move would have been legal if it was identical but Verstappen was doing the overtaking. If two cars arrive at a braking zone side by side what is the relevance of which one was ahead 5 seconds ago? For me, there is no distinction between overtaking/ being overtaken.

I don't know which commentary you listen to, and whether they take the trouble to read to their viewers what the actual rule is, instead of what they interpret the rule to be, but I have a habit of re-reading the current rule whenever I hear or read a comment that I find suspect. Crowding is indeed not allowed, but the stewards deemed Verstappen guilty of causing a collision, not just for failing to leave a car's width (which was the cause of the collision, obviously).

I don't know whether Vettel vs Hamilton in Austria was investigated, but if it wasn't, I believe the reason to be that Hamilton moved onto the kerbs of his own accord. In the inverse case of Verstappen attacking Bottas at Monza, I believe Max would still be punished, because Bottas didn't leave the racing line to defend, and Max hitting would also be him causing an accident.

Mayhem wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Does anybody know why Verstappen was penalised at Monza but Vettel not even investigated in Austria for his move on Hamilton?

I could be wrong, but the rule to me is you have to leave a cars width for a car on corner entry. The track is defined by the white lines. In both circumstances, the Mercedes has some kerb next to it. Hamilton went onto it to avoid Vettel. The normal racing line is not using kerb there. Bottas didn't use the bit of kerb so they collided. If Hamilton hadn't have moved out the way, would Vettel have got a penalty? Isn't it still a penalty for Vettel? Or maybe Verstappen was treated harshly here?
Yes, you are wrong about the rule. A driver only has to leave a car's width of room on the approach to a corner, if he had gone off the racing line in defence of his position, and on moving back towards the racing line.

The difference between the two cases is that Vettel was attacking, while Verstappen was defending. So only Max was bound by the obligation to leave a car's width of space to his left. Which, as you could see, he failed to do.
Vettel didn't have to, and didn't.

I don't like the fact that F1 allows drivers to run competitors off the track in some cases, but perhaps I forget too readily it isn't a sport anymore.


@ Fiki, which rule are you referring to??? You keep referring to the rules but you never actually site the rule you are justifying. So here is a link to the rules please prove your point

https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110
I think you must have missed quite a few of my posts if you think I never cite the rule I judge an incident by. 8O The rules drivers have to race by, are contained in the International Sporting code, and more particularly in

Appendix L to the International Sporting Code, CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS, 2. Overtaking, car control and track limits, paragraph b. This reads:
Quote:
"b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.
More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted.
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.


Source: https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

I hope this helps.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:03 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?

I think Hamilton did that precisely for the reason above, you want to be over aggressive so can I, it's an interesting psyche were a driver can do something to another driver but complains when he's on the receiving end.

In respect to what was different with Verstappen is first there was no contact and second Hamilton didn't have to go completely off the track.


You are comparing apples and oranges.

The incidents are different.

In Spa Vettel was trying to overtake Hamilton, but at Austria Vettel had the overtake done and was trying to prevent the cut back.

Also i suppose you intentionally took the stills after Hamilton had pushed Vettel on the grass before the corner as it does not suit the point you are trying to make.


At which point did that happen?
Looks like he leaves 1.5 car widths to me...

https://youtu.be/qZImCqeeXag?t=13s

Please give the exact second of the push onto the grass and I will gladly make the stills for you Rockie.

So it didn't actually happen, Vettel over reacted and put himself on the grass. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What gets me about what Vettel did there is that Hamilton did a similar thing to Vettel at the start of the race in Spa into the first hairpin and Vettel passed comment about it, maybe Hamilton didn't see me?

I think Hamilton did that precisely for the reason above, you want to be over aggressive so can I, it's an interesting psyche were a driver can do something to another driver but complains when he's on the receiving end.

In respect to what was different with Verstappen is first there was no contact and second Hamilton didn't have to go completely off the track.


You are comparing apples and oranges.

The incidents are different.

In Spa Vettel was trying to overtake Hamilton, but at Austria Vettel had the overtake done and was trying to prevent the cut back.

Also i suppose you intentionally took the stills after Hamilton had pushed Vettel on the grass before the corner as it does not suit the point you are trying to make.

There not different at all, Vettel ran Hamilton wide to ruin his run down the next straight, at Spa Hamilton did likewise to Vettel and I believe that was pay back.

I didn't present the stills so I'm not sure what your on about on that one?


So that move was ok as a payback, but you argued Vettel at Singapore '17 was wrong.

Hamilton still left Vettel room, he didn't force him off the track, he just delayed his turn in like Vettel did to him as shown on the caption.

What has Singapore got to do with it, there you have a dynamic of 3 cars whereas we are just dealing with 2 cars, also what Vettel did there was the Schumacher chop, totally different circumstances involving a straight and not a corner.

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