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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If the feeling is that the tow made the difference, that would make Vettel's "real" lap time slower than Hamiltons...


Vettel might have benefited from a tow from Hamilton. He certainly was pretty close on Lewis heels at the finish line.

Will be interested to hear if Seb expected a tow from Kimi. :?

...if so, why didn't Team Red release them in that order?

according to Arrivabene they rotate and today was Vettel's turn to go first

That seems fair by Ferrari now you have to wonder what Vettel's gripe is?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:12 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
Gasly was "only" .700s down on Max and .300s down on the Renault. Did Max get a tow? Horner spoke about leaving the pits at the right moment to maximize the tow. If the Toro Rosso was able to get P9 without a tow then the Honda engine appears to be working well. Considering RBR is usually faster that the TR, this is starting to really drive home the fact that RBR did made the correct choice by switching next year.

Verstappen didn't get a tow on his final lap.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:16 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I really don't agree with this stance that the number two must necessarily always be considered slower than the number one driver. Kimi has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he still has strong one-lap pace, but is unfortunately prone to making errors. So it's not that hard to believe that he might still be very quick when he doesn't make an error. I don't think it's right to automatically assume that Vettel should have gotten more out of the car whatever Kimi did.

Not saying it's impossible, either. But I think it's a prejudicial viewpoint


I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.

The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


Yes.

Kimi Raikkonen is 38 years old, a number 2 or at best 1.5 driver and was never exceptional over 1 lap.

Valteri Bottas is a number 2 or at best a 1.5 driver, evidence shows he is not a top tier driver.

Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel and 4x WDC's, have there teams main focus and are considered arguably the best two drivers to debut in the last 25 years.

If KR and VB out perform those two, the best deduction is they under performed. Especially when the gap is 0.150+ and not something like 0.005 where it could be the number 2 getting nearly everything out of it.

BIB: I would disagree with you quite strongly there. At one point he had a reputation for being exactly that.

Of course recently he has made errors more often than not, but he has shown himself to have a decent turn of one-lap pace

Not since 2006.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Source https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SAPG4y-4fYM

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:25 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Mayhem wrote:

Agreed, kimi has set numerous fastest lap records throughout his career and still holds records at current tracks


Kimi had the reputation for being the fastest guy in F1 circa 2004-2005. That is 14 years ago and based largely on him thrashing DC. Since then he has been out qualified by Massa, Alonso, Vettel (7-0 in seasons) and didn't exactly dominant Grosjean.

He did look good on Michelins and when qualifying was on race fuel though circa 2003-2006.


Never said nothing about him being known as the fastest guy in F1. But as fastest lap records go kimi only 2nd to Schumacher in fastest laps set in his career.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_drivers_who_set_a_fastest_lap#By_driver

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:30 pm 
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Interesting article on vettels thoughts after Kimi’s pole

“Vettel’s gloomy mood had improved little by the time he reached the press conference room. “Clearly, I wasn’t happy, but I won’t tell you why,” he said.....Quizzed about Raikkonen’s slipstream, the German replied: “We have an order which changes every weekend, and this weekend it was Kimi’s turn to go second [and get the tow]. Simple.....

“Is Kimi allowed to win? Well, if he is starting from pole, then I guess he is.”


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2018/09/01/f1-live-italian-grand-prix-2018-qualifying-latest-updates/

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Last edited by Mayhem on Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:33 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mayhem wrote:

Agreed, kimi has set numerous fastest lap records throughout his career and still holds records at current tracks


Kimi had the reputation for being the fastest guy in F1 circa 2004-2005. That is 14 years ago and based largely on him thrashing DC. Since then he has been out qualified by Massa, Alonso, Vettel (7-0 in seasons) and didn't exactly dominant Grosjean.

He did look good on Michelins and when qualifying was on race fuel though circa 2003-2006.


Never said nothing about him being known as the fastest guy in F1. But as fastest lap records go kimi only 2nd to Schumacher in fastest laps set in his career.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_drivers_who_set_a_fastest_lap#By_driver

Sorry but fastest laps mean very little with todays cars and rules and are often not an indication of which car/driver is fastest.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mayhem wrote:

Agreed, kimi has set numerous fastest lap records throughout his career and still holds records at current tracks


Kimi had the reputation for being the fastest guy in F1 circa 2004-2005. That is 14 years ago and based largely on him thrashing DC. Since then he has been out qualified by Massa, Alonso, Vettel (7-0 in seasons) and didn't exactly dominant Grosjean.

He did look good on Michelins and when qualifying was on race fuel though circa 2003-2006.


Never said nothing about him being known as the fastest guy in F1. But as fastest lap records go kimi only 2nd to Schumacher in fastest laps set in his career.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_drivers_who_set_a_fastest_lap#By_driver

Sorry but fastest laps mean very little with todays cars and rules and are often not an indication of which car/driver is fastest.


Was never a discussion of which car / driver is the fastest.... a comment was made that “kimi was never exceptional over 1 lap” and I was responding in disagreement to the original statement.....

Yes cars from current era and technological advances are much better suited for speed but you still can not discredit the fact that kimi has been a regular at setting fastest laps. That is where this conversation started

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:34 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mayhem wrote:

Agreed, kimi has set numerous fastest lap records throughout his career and still holds records at current tracks


Kimi had the reputation for being the fastest guy in F1 circa 2004-2005. That is 14 years ago and based largely on him thrashing DC. Since then he has been out qualified by Massa, Alonso, Vettel (7-0 in seasons) and didn't exactly dominant Grosjean.

He did look good on Michelins and when qualifying was on race fuel though circa 2003-2006.


Never said nothing about him being known as the fastest guy in F1. But as fastest lap records go kimi only 2nd to Schumacher in fastest laps set in his career.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_drivers_who_set_a_fastest_lap#By_driver

Sorry but fastest laps mean very little with todays cars and rules and are often not an indication of which car/driver is fastest.


Was never a discussion of which car / driver is the fastest.... a comment was made that “kimi was never exceptional over 1 lap” and I was responding in disagreement to the original statement.....

Yes cars from current era and technological advances are much better suited for speed but you still can not discredit the fact that kimi has been a regular at setting fastest laps. That is where this conversation started

A better measure for one lap speed is qualifying not fastest laps, this year Vettel and Hamilton have had 2 fastest laps between them whilst the Red Bull drivers in the slower car have had 6 fastest laps between them, nowadays it's meaningless.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Johnson wrote:


Kimi had the reputation for being the fastest guy in F1 circa 2004-2005. That is 14 years ago and based largely on him thrashing DC. Since then he has been out qualified by Massa, Alonso, Vettel (7-0 in seasons) and didn't exactly dominant Grosjean.

He did look good on Michelins and when qualifying was on race fuel though circa 2003-2006.


Never said nothing about him being known as the fastest guy in F1. But as fastest lap records go kimi only 2nd to Schumacher in fastest laps set in his career.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_drivers_who_set_a_fastest_lap#By_driver

Sorry but fastest laps mean very little with todays cars and rules and are often not an indication of which car/driver is fastest.


Was never a discussion of which car / driver is the fastest.... a comment was made that “kimi was never exceptional over 1 lap” and I was responding in disagreement to the original statement.....

Yes cars from current era and technological advances are much better suited for speed but you still can not discredit the fact that kimi has been a regular at setting fastest laps. That is where this conversation started

A better measure for one lap speed is qualifying not fastest laps, this year Vettel and Hamilton have had 2 fastest laps between them whilst the Red Bull drivers in the slower car have had 6 fastest laps between them, nowadays it's meaningless.


If your talking about out right pure speed then yes qualifying would be a better measure of that. As Cars are the fastest over 1 lap with the settings to match those conditions.

But F1 splits the stats into most poles & fastest race lap and in that category of fastest laps kimi raikkonen believe it or not is the leader amongst current drivers..... people may not agree with the system / notion of kimi leading that catergory but those are the facts

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
j man wrote:
One of the Mercedes is very close to the Ferraris, the other is way off. Was Hamilton brilliant or was Bottas terrible?


Easy Bottas was terrible.

Whenever the other driver can extract a time in the car it means its in the car, but normally folks will want to tell you that it is possible to out drive a car.

That kind of assumes that all drivers are equal.


It's as if when you read other peoples posts, you think of something different in your head and then respond to that.

Never said all drivers are equal, what I said was simply the time is in the car.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
Interesting article on vettels thoughts after Kimi’s pole

“Vettel’s gloomy mood had improved little by the time he reached the press conference room. “Clearly, I wasn’t happy, but I won’t tell you why,” he said.....Quizzed about Raikkonen’s slipstream, the German replied: “We have an order which changes every weekend, and this weekend it was Kimi’s turn to go second [and get the tow]. Simple.....

“Is Kimi allowed to win? Well, if he is starting from pole, then I guess he is.”


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2018/09/01/f1-live-italian-grand-prix-2018-qualifying-latest-updates/


Don't think Ferrari are serious about winning the title with this kind of Mentality, whilst the title is on the line and Mercedes has been using team orders Ferrari is ticking by this it's absolute nonsense.

Should Vettel lose out to Hamilton on the drag to turn one tomorrow, I bet most folks will laugh at them so hard and wonder what the hell they were doing, and what sense it makes for Vettel to give Kimi the tow.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:23 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Where's Fiki? Bet he's fuming there about vettel setting his lap time outside the white lines if the spa thread was anything to go by
I just saw Kimi's on-board footage for his pole position lap. I'm pleased he didn't run wide in a single corner.
He ran onto the kerbs at both Lesbo 1 and 2, but kept his right front wheel on the white lines at all times. That is impressive.

I'm not very impressed by this "fastest lap of all time" nonsens, but that has nothing to do with Räikkönen.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:35 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Interesting article on vettels thoughts after Kimi’s pole

“Vettel’s gloomy mood had improved little by the time he reached the press conference room. “Clearly, I wasn’t happy, but I won’t tell you why,” he said.....Quizzed about Raikkonen’s slipstream, the German replied: “We have an order which changes every weekend, and this weekend it was Kimi’s turn to go second [and get the tow]. Simple.....

“Is Kimi allowed to win? Well, if he is starting from pole, then I guess he is.”


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2018/09/01/f1-live-italian-grand-prix-2018-qualifying-latest-updates/


Don't think Ferrari are serious about winning the title with this kind of Mentality, whilst the title is on the line and Mercedes has been using team orders Ferrari is ticking by this it's absolute nonsense.

Should Vettel lose out to Hamilton on the drag to turn one tomorrow, I bet most folks will laugh at them so hard and wonder what the hell they were doing, and what sense it makes for Vettel to give Kimi the tow.


Kimi's race strategy has been compromised a number of times by making him pit to force either Lewis or Valtteri cover him to the benefit of Sebastian. He was asked to let Seb by in Germany not too long before Seb crashed on a damp track.
I would say Ferrari has been using team orders as much or more to benefit Sebastian than Mercedes has been using to benefit Lewis.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:47 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Interesting article on vettels thoughts after Kimi’s pole

“Vettel’s gloomy mood had improved little by the time he reached the press conference room. “Clearly, I wasn’t happy, but I won’t tell you why,” he said.....Quizzed about Raikkonen’s slipstream, the German replied: “We have an order which changes every weekend, and this weekend it was Kimi’s turn to go second [and get the tow]. Simple.....

“Is Kimi allowed to win? Well, if he is starting from pole, then I guess he is.”


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2018/09/01/f1-live-italian-grand-prix-2018-qualifying-latest-updates/


Don't think Ferrari are serious about winning the title with this kind of Mentality, whilst the title is on the line and Mercedes has been using team orders Ferrari is ticking by this it's absolute nonsense.

Should Vettel lose out to Hamilton on the drag to turn one tomorrow, I bet most folks will laugh at them so hard and wonder what the hell they were doing, and what sense it makes for Vettel to give Kimi the tow.


Kimi's race strategy has been compromised a number of times by making him pit to force either Lewis or Valtteri cover him to the benefit of Sebastian. He was asked to let Seb by in Germany not too long before Seb crashed on a damp track.
I would say Ferrari has been using team orders as much or more to benefit Sebastian than Mercedes has been using to benefit Lewis.


That's a long way to go to twist yourself into a pretzel right there.

The way a team plans their strategy is different from team orders, once you can differentiate that you'll be fine, at no time was he in front of Vettel when any of that happened.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:00 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Interesting article on vettels thoughts after Kimi’s pole

“Vettel’s gloomy mood had improved little by the time he reached the press conference room. “Clearly, I wasn’t happy, but I won’t tell you why,” he said.....Quizzed about Raikkonen’s slipstream, the German replied: “We have an order which changes every weekend, and this weekend it was Kimi’s turn to go second [and get the tow]. Simple.....

“Is Kimi allowed to win? Well, if he is starting from pole, then I guess he is.”


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2018/09/01/f1-live-italian-grand-prix-2018-qualifying-latest-updates/


Don't think Ferrari are serious about winning the title with this kind of Mentality, whilst the title is on the line and Mercedes has been using team orders Ferrari is ticking by this it's absolute nonsense.

Should Vettel lose out to Hamilton on the drag to turn one tomorrow, I bet most folks will laugh at them so hard and wonder what the hell they were doing, and what sense it makes for Vettel to give Kimi the tow.


Kimi's race strategy has been compromised a number of times by making him pit to force either Lewis or Valtteri cover him to the benefit of Sebastian. He was asked to let Seb by in Germany not too long before Seb crashed on a damp track.
I would say Ferrari has been using team orders as much or more to benefit Sebastian than Mercedes has been using to benefit Lewis.


That's a long way to go to twist yourself into a pretzel right there.

The way a team plans their strategy is different from team orders, once you can differentiate that you'll be fine, at no time was he in front of Vettel when any of that happened.
How did Kimi manage to let Vettel through, if he wasn't ahead of Vettel, in Germany? :? I know Kimi is fantastic, but I didn't know he can let somebody through who's already ahead. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:19 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mayhem wrote:

Agreed, kimi has set numerous fastest lap records throughout his career and still holds records at current tracks


Kimi had the reputation for being the fastest guy in F1 circa 2004-2005. That is 14 years ago and based largely on him thrashing DC. Since then he has been out qualified by Massa, Alonso, Vettel (7-0 in seasons) and didn't exactly dominant Grosjean.

He did look good on Michelins and when qualifying was on race fuel though circa 2003-2006.


Never said nothing about him being known as the fastest guy in F1. But as fastest lap records go kimi only 2nd to Schumacher in fastest laps set in his career.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_drivers_who_set_a_fastest_lap#By_driver

Sorry but fastest laps mean very little with todays cars and rules and are often not an indication of which car/driver is fastest.


Was never a discussion of which car / driver is the fastest.... a comment was made that “kimi was never exceptional over 1 lap” and I was responding in disagreement to the original statement.....

Yes cars from current era and technological advances are much better suited for speed but you still can not discredit the fact that kimi has been a regular at setting fastest laps. That is where this conversation started


The phrase "over 1 lap" was brought up by me, this is generally considered to mean qualifying. 1 lap pace and race pace. Race fastest laps is race pace. To be clear, as I brought it up - I was referring solely to qualifying hence including him losing 7-0 in season in qualifying.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:21 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Interesting article on vettels thoughts after Kimi’s pole

“Vettel’s gloomy mood had improved little by the time he reached the press conference room. “Clearly, I wasn’t happy, but I won’t tell you why,” he said.....Quizzed about Raikkonen’s slipstream, the German replied: “We have an order which changes every weekend, and this weekend it was Kimi’s turn to go second [and get the tow]. Simple.....

“Is Kimi allowed to win? Well, if he is starting from pole, then I guess he is.”


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2018/09/01/f1-live-italian-grand-prix-2018-qualifying-latest-updates/


Don't think Ferrari are serious about winning the title with this kind of Mentality, whilst the title is on the line and Mercedes has been using team orders Ferrari is ticking by this it's absolute nonsense.

Should Vettel lose out to Hamilton on the drag to turn one tomorrow, I bet most folks will laugh at them so hard and wonder what the hell they were doing, and what sense it makes for Vettel to give Kimi the tow.


Kimi's race strategy has been compromised a number of times by making him pit to force either Lewis or Valtteri cover him to the benefit of Sebastian. He was asked to let Seb by in Germany not too long before Seb crashed on a damp track.
I would say Ferrari has been using team orders as much or more to benefit Sebastian than Mercedes has been using to benefit Lewis.


That's a long way to go to twist yourself into a pretzel right there.

The way a team plans their strategy is different from team orders, once you can differentiate that you'll be fine, at no time was he in front of Vettel when any of that happened.
How did Kimi manage to let Vettel through, if he wasn't ahead of Vettel, in Germany? :? I know Kimi is fantastic, but I didn't know he can let somebody through who's already ahead. :D


ooops, just realised it was sarcastic :-P


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:13 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Interesting article on vettels thoughts after Kimi’s pole

“Vettel’s gloomy mood had improved little by the time he reached the press conference room. “Clearly, I wasn’t happy, but I won’t tell you why,” he said.....Quizzed about Raikkonen’s slipstream, the German replied: “We have an order which changes every weekend, and this weekend it was Kimi’s turn to go second [and get the tow]. Simple.....

“Is Kimi allowed to win? Well, if he is starting from pole, then I guess he is.”


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2018/09/01/f1-live-italian-grand-prix-2018-qualifying-latest-updates/


Don't think Ferrari are serious about winning the title with this kind of Mentality, whilst the title is on the line and Mercedes has been using team orders Ferrari is ticking by this it's absolute nonsense.

Should Vettel lose out to Hamilton on the drag to turn one tomorrow, I bet most folks will laugh at them so hard and wonder what the hell they were doing, and what sense it makes for Vettel to give Kimi the tow.

Except the tow isn't what gave Kimi pole. His advantage over Vettel was greater than the S3 difference. He just drove a better lap


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:

I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.

The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


Yes.

Kimi Raikkonen is 38 years old, a number 2 or at best 1.5 driver and was never exceptional over 1 lap.

Valteri Bottas is a number 2 or at best a 1.5 driver, evidence shows he is not a top tier driver.

Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel and 4x WDC's, have there teams main focus and are considered arguably the best two drivers to debut in the last 25 years.

If KR and VB out perform those two, the best deduction is they under performed. Especially when the gap is 0.150+ and not something like 0.005 where it could be the number 2 getting nearly everything out of it.

BIB: I would disagree with you quite strongly there. At one point he had a reputation for being exactly that.

Of course recently he has made errors more often than not, but he has shown himself to have a decent turn of one-lap pace

Not since 2006.

not since 2006 what? You don't think he's ever shown decent one-lap pace since 2006? We're going to have to disagree on that one I'm afraid


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:29 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I really don't agree with this stance that the number two must necessarily always be considered slower than the number one driver. Kimi has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he still has strong one-lap pace, but is unfortunately prone to making errors. So it's not that hard to believe that he might still be very quick when he doesn't make an error. I don't think it's right to automatically assume that Vettel should have gotten more out of the car whatever Kimi did.

Not saying it's impossible, either. But I think it's a prejudicial viewpoint


I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.

The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


:thumbup: Exactly, was going to say the same thing as you. Specially regarding Canada ;)

you mean the Canada where Hamilton admitted to struggling throughout qualifying and where he was never comfortable with the car? Where he kept uncharacteristically locking up under braking? That Canada? I don't think it's at all contentious to imagine that he would have gone quicker without his issues, and given that he was just over a tenth slower than Bottas and he himself thought he lost more than that by locking up, I'm pretty comfortable saying that an on-form Hamilton would have beaten Bottas.

No such issues presented themselves to Vettel here today, so think you guys are just reaching


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:43 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


Yes.

Kimi Raikkonen is 38 years old, a number 2 or at best 1.5 driver and was never exceptional over 1 lap.

Valteri Bottas is a number 2 or at best a 1.5 driver, evidence shows he is not a top tier driver.

Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel and 4x WDC's, have there teams main focus and are considered arguably the best two drivers to debut in the last 25 years.

If KR and VB out perform those two, the best deduction is they under performed. Especially when the gap is 0.150+ and not something like 0.005 where it could be the number 2 getting nearly everything out of it.

BIB: I would disagree with you quite strongly there. At one point he had a reputation for being exactly that.

Of course recently he has made errors more often than not, but he has shown himself to have a decent turn of one-lap pace

Not since 2006.

not since 2006 what? You don't think he's ever shown decent one-lap pace since 2006? We're going to have to disagree on that one I'm afraid

Well in respect to qualifying since 2006 he was matched by both Massa and Grosjean and well beaten by both Vettel and Alonso, of course any driver might have his day but Kimi can't be considered an exceptional qualifier.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I really don't agree with this stance that the number two must necessarily always be considered slower than the number one driver. Kimi has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he still has strong one-lap pace, but is unfortunately prone to making errors. So it's not that hard to believe that he might still be very quick when he doesn't make an error. I don't think it's right to automatically assume that Vettel should have gotten more out of the car whatever Kimi did.

Not saying it's impossible, either. But I think it's a prejudicial viewpoint


I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.

The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


:thumbup: Exactly, was going to say the same thing as you. Specially regarding Canada ;)

you mean the Canada where Hamilton admitted to struggling throughout qualifying and where he was never comfortable with the car? Where he kept uncharacteristically locking up under braking? That Canada? I don't think it's at all contentious to imagine that he would have gone quicker without his issues, and given that he was just over a tenth slower than Bottas and he himself thought he lost more than that by locking up, I'm pretty comfortable saying that an on-form Hamilton would have beaten Bottas.

No such issues presented themselves to Vettel here today, so think you guys are just reaching

You've not seen Vettel saying he was not happy with his lap because he made several mistakes?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:

I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.

The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


:thumbup: Exactly, was going to say the same thing as you. Specially regarding Canada ;)

you mean the Canada where Hamilton admitted to struggling throughout qualifying and where he was never comfortable with the car? Where he kept uncharacteristically locking up under braking? That Canada? I don't think it's at all contentious to imagine that he would have gone quicker without his issues, and given that he was just over a tenth slower than Bottas and he himself thought he lost more than that by locking up, I'm pretty comfortable saying that an on-form Hamilton would have beaten Bottas.

No such issues presented themselves to Vettel here today, so think you guys are just reaching

You've not seen Vettel saying he was not happy with his lap because he made several mistakes?

I've seen him saying he was not happy, yes. If you really want to push this comparison, here's what Hamilton said after Canada:

So constantly today going into that corner I was struggling to get the car stopped, be it front locking or rear locking, so it was quite messy.

"I need to look into it to see exactly what it is, but that was definitely a good chunk of time there. Definitely just in that corner alone it was pole position for sure."


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11390886/canadian-gp-lewis-hamilton-rues-messy-qualifying-in-montreal

while today Vettel said:

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11485545/italian-gp-sebastian-vettel-keeps-qualifying-unhappiness-to-himself

Vettel certainly wasn't happy and felt he under-performed, but there wasn't one single area he could point to where he definitely lost a lot of time, like Hamilton did in Canada. But let's pretend they're exactly the same situation, shall we?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:04 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes.

Kimi Raikkonen is 38 years old, a number 2 or at best 1.5 driver and was never exceptional over 1 lap.

Valteri Bottas is a number 2 or at best a 1.5 driver, evidence shows he is not a top tier driver.

Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel and 4x WDC's, have there teams main focus and are considered arguably the best two drivers to debut in the last 25 years.

If KR and VB out perform those two, the best deduction is they under performed. Especially when the gap is 0.150+ and not something like 0.005 where it could be the number 2 getting nearly everything out of it.

BIB: I would disagree with you quite strongly there. At one point he had a reputation for being exactly that.

Of course recently he has made errors more often than not, but he has shown himself to have a decent turn of one-lap pace

Not since 2006.

not since 2006 what? You don't think he's ever shown decent one-lap pace since 2006? We're going to have to disagree on that one I'm afraid

Well in respect to qualifying since 2006 he was matched by both Massa and Grosjean and well beaten by both Vettel and Alonso, of course any driver might have his day but Kimi can't be considered an exceptional qualifier.

there's a difference between saying he's not an exceptional qualifier and saying he's never been exceptional over one lap. Let's not move the goalposts here. He's managed to get poles and has produced some pretty decent efforts since 2006.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:18 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


:thumbup: Exactly, was going to say the same thing as you. Specially regarding Canada ;)

you mean the Canada where Hamilton admitted to struggling throughout qualifying and where he was never comfortable with the car? Where he kept uncharacteristically locking up under braking? That Canada? I don't think it's at all contentious to imagine that he would have gone quicker without his issues, and given that he was just over a tenth slower than Bottas and he himself thought he lost more than that by locking up, I'm pretty comfortable saying that an on-form Hamilton would have beaten Bottas.

No such issues presented themselves to Vettel here today, so think you guys are just reaching

You've not seen Vettel saying he was not happy with his lap because he made several mistakes?

I've seen him saying he was not happy, yes. If you really want to push this comparison, here's what Hamilton said after Canada:

So constantly today going into that corner I was struggling to get the car stopped, be it front locking or rear locking, so it was quite messy.

"I need to look into it to see exactly what it is, but that was definitely a good chunk of time there. Definitely just in that corner alone it was pole position for sure."


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11390886/canadian-gp-lewis-hamilton-rues-messy-qualifying-in-montreal

while today Vettel said:

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11485545/italian-gp-sebastian-vettel-keeps-qualifying-unhappiness-to-himself

Vettel certainly wasn't happy and felt he under-performed, but there wasn't one single area he could point to where he definitely lost a lot of time, like Hamilton did in Canada. But let's pretend they're exactly the same situation, shall we?

Yes I believe that's the article I saw, how did you manage to miss the salient bit to what I said?

Quote:
Vettel made an error through the first chicane and was not able to make up the gap despite a strong final sector.

"To be honest it was not a tidy lap and I think the other laps were actually better ones," he said. "I lost time pretty much everywhere.

"It was just not a good lap and not good enough. [I'm] lucky to get second and not third, but it's just not good enough."

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:32 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BIB: I would disagree with you quite strongly there. At one point he had a reputation for being exactly that.

Of course recently he has made errors more often than not, but he has shown himself to have a decent turn of one-lap pace

Not since 2006.

not since 2006 what? You don't think he's ever shown decent one-lap pace since 2006? We're going to have to disagree on that one I'm afraid

Well in respect to qualifying since 2006 he was matched by both Massa and Grosjean and well beaten by both Vettel and Alonso, of course any driver might have his day but Kimi can't be considered an exceptional qualifier.

there's a difference between saying he's not an exceptional qualifier and saying he's never been exceptional over one lap. Let's not move the goalposts here. He's managed to get poles and has produced some pretty decent efforts since 2006.

Since 2006 he's had 7 poles compared to the 21 poles of his teammates, Massa (11), Vettel (10), that's not an exceptional qualifier, Button got some poles during his career, he wouldn't be classed as an exceptional qualifier either.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:04 am 
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He was also out of the sport for two years in which he may have been able to get a couple of poles perhaps, some never have a good word to say about Kimi so why do they bother commenting on him at all.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:05 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BIB: I would disagree with you quite strongly there. At one point he had a reputation for being exactly that.

Of course recently he has made errors more often than not, but he has shown himself to have a decent turn of one-lap pace

Not since 2006.

not since 2006 what? You don't think he's ever shown decent one-lap pace since 2006? We're going to have to disagree on that one I'm afraid

Well in respect to qualifying since 2006 he was matched by both Massa and Grosjean and well beaten by both Vettel and Alonso, of course any driver might have his day but Kimi can't be considered an exceptional qualifier.



pokerman wrote:
there's a difference between saying he's not an exceptional qualifier and saying he's never been exceptional over one lap. Let's not move the goalposts here. He's managed to get poles and has produced some pretty decent efforts since 2006.

Since 2006 he's had 7 poles compared to the 21 poles of his teammates, Massa (11), Vettel (10), that's not an exceptional qualifier, Button got some poles during his career, he wouldn't be classed as an exceptional qualifier either.


although i dont think kimi is in the top league of quali pace, dont forget they used to qualify with race fuel until 2010 and kimi would generally run more fuel then montoya and massa. he always priorised the race over quali. (sorry ive completely c**ked up the quotes)


Last edited by Caserole of Nonsense on Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:12 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:10 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Not since 2006.

not since 2006 what? You don't think he's ever shown decent one-lap pace since 2006? We're going to have to disagree on that one I'm afraid

Well in respect to qualifying since 2006 he was matched by both Massa and Grosjean and well beaten by both Vettel and Alonso, of course any driver might have his day but Kimi can't be considered an exceptional qualifier.

there's a difference between saying he's not an exceptional qualifier and saying he's never been exceptional over one lap. Let's not move the goalposts here. He's managed to get poles and has produced some pretty decent efforts since 2006.

Since 2006 he's had 7 poles compared to the 21 poles of his teammates, Massa (11), Vettel (10), that's not an exceptional qualifier, Button got some poles during his career, he wouldn't be classed as an exceptional qualifier either.

Oh. My. God. I've just pointed out to you the difference between being an exceptional qualifier and never being exceptional over one lap, yet in the very same reply you harp on about exceptional qualifying. I give up :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:15 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

:thumbup: Exactly, was going to say the same thing as you. Specially regarding Canada ;)

you mean the Canada where Hamilton admitted to struggling throughout qualifying and where he was never comfortable with the car? Where he kept uncharacteristically locking up under braking? That Canada? I don't think it's at all contentious to imagine that he would have gone quicker without his issues, and given that he was just over a tenth slower than Bottas and he himself thought he lost more than that by locking up, I'm pretty comfortable saying that an on-form Hamilton would have beaten Bottas.

No such issues presented themselves to Vettel here today, so think you guys are just reaching

You've not seen Vettel saying he was not happy with his lap because he made several mistakes?

I've seen him saying he was not happy, yes. If you really want to push this comparison, here's what Hamilton said after Canada:

So constantly today going into that corner I was struggling to get the car stopped, be it front locking or rear locking, so it was quite messy.

"I need to look into it to see exactly what it is, but that was definitely a good chunk of time there. Definitely just in that corner alone it was pole position for sure."


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11390886/canadian-gp-lewis-hamilton-rues-messy-qualifying-in-montreal

while today Vettel said:

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11485545/italian-gp-sebastian-vettel-keeps-qualifying-unhappiness-to-himself

Vettel certainly wasn't happy and felt he under-performed, but there wasn't one single area he could point to where he definitely lost a lot of time, like Hamilton did in Canada. But let's pretend they're exactly the same situation, shall we?

Yes I believe that's the article I saw, how did you manage to miss the salient bit to what I said?

Quote:
Vettel made an error through the first chicane and was not able to make up the gap despite a strong final sector.

"To be honest it was not a tidy lap and I think the other laps were actually better ones," he said. "I lost time pretty much everywhere.

"It was just not a good lap and not good enough. [I'm] lucky to get second and not third, but it's just not good enough."

I didn't miss it. The most salient bit is the one where he says he couldn't have gone any quicker. Case closed right there.

If you don't see the difference between saying it wasn't a tidy lap in general and specifically pointing to major locking up errors in a corner which cost a driver pole then there's little point discussing. You see what you want to see.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:40 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


:thumbup: Exactly, was going to say the same thing as you. Specially regarding Canada ;)

you mean the Canada where Hamilton admitted to struggling throughout qualifying and where he was never comfortable with the car? Where he kept uncharacteristically locking up under braking? That Canada? I don't think it's at all contentious to imagine that he would have gone quicker without his issues, and given that he was just over a tenth slower than Bottas and he himself thought he lost more than that by locking up, I'm pretty comfortable saying that an on-form Hamilton would have beaten Bottas.

No such issues presented themselves to Vettel here today, so think you guys are just reaching

You've not seen Vettel saying he was not happy with his lap because he made several mistakes?

I've seen him saying he was not happy, yes. If you really want to push this comparison, here's what Hamilton said after Canada:

So constantly today going into that corner I was struggling to get the car stopped, be it front locking or rear locking, so it was quite messy.

"I need to look into it to see exactly what it is, but that was definitely a good chunk of time there. Definitely just in that corner alone it was pole position for sure."


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11390886/canadian-gp-lewis-hamilton-rues-messy-qualifying-in-montreal

while today Vettel said:

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11485545/italian-gp-sebastian-vettel-keeps-qualifying-unhappiness-to-himself

Vettel certainly wasn't happy and felt he under-performed, but there wasn't one single area he could point to where he definitely lost a lot of time, like Hamilton did in Canada. But let's pretend they're exactly the same situation, shall we?


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... to-himself

Hamilton enjoyed the tow from his team-mate Valtteri Bottas but also claimed he would have been giving one to Vettel as the Ferrari was just behind him on track.

"Here the effect of the tow is huge for everyone and getting the gap right is important," the championship leader explained.

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

Was it Vettel or Hamilton who said this?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:42 am 
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http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... to-himself

"To be honest it was not a tidy lap and I think the other laps were actually better ones," he said. "I lost time pretty much everywhere.

"It was just not a good lap and not good enough. [I'm] lucky to get second and not third, but it's just not good enough."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/unha ... 69/?nrt=54

Vettel said that giving the slipstream was not out of the ordinary, because it was Raikkonen's turn to run second on the track.

"We have an order that changes every week," he explained. "This weekend was Kimi to go second, simple."

"Rather than blame the slipstream issue, Vettel believed that he ultimately lost out because of a series of mistakes over his final qualifying lap.

"To be honest, it was not a tidy lap, the other laps were actually better," he said. "I lost a bit at the first chicane, second chicane, the Lesmos, pretty much a bit everywhere.

"The last sector was okay but not fantastic, so not just a good lap and not good enough obviously. I was lucky to get second instead of third, but it was just not good enough."

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:50 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
you mean the Canada where Hamilton admitted to struggling throughout qualifying and where he was never comfortable with the car? Where he kept uncharacteristically locking up under braking? That Canada? I don't think it's at all contentious to imagine that he would have gone quicker without his issues, and given that he was just over a tenth slower than Bottas and he himself thought he lost more than that by locking up, I'm pretty comfortable saying that an on-form Hamilton would have beaten Bottas.

No such issues presented themselves to Vettel here today, so think you guys are just reaching

You've not seen Vettel saying he was not happy with his lap because he made several mistakes?

I've seen him saying he was not happy, yes. If you really want to push this comparison, here's what Hamilton said after Canada:

So constantly today going into that corner I was struggling to get the car stopped, be it front locking or rear locking, so it was quite messy.

"I need to look into it to see exactly what it is, but that was definitely a good chunk of time there. Definitely just in that corner alone it was pole position for sure."


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11390886/canadian-gp-lewis-hamilton-rues-messy-qualifying-in-montreal

while today Vettel said:

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11485545/italian-gp-sebastian-vettel-keeps-qualifying-unhappiness-to-himself

Vettel certainly wasn't happy and felt he under-performed, but there wasn't one single area he could point to where he definitely lost a lot of time, like Hamilton did in Canada. But let's pretend they're exactly the same situation, shall we?


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... to-himself

Hamilton enjoyed the tow from his team-mate Valtteri Bottas but also claimed he would have been giving one to Vettel as the Ferrari was just behind him on track.

"Here the effect of the tow is huge for everyone and getting the gap right is important," the championship leader explained.

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

Was it Vettel or Hamilton who said this?

Ah yes, my bad. I missed that intervening paragraph, apologies. In my defence the rest of the article I quoted was about Vettel!

Still, doesn't change much. Vettel saying he had a scrappy lap isn't anywhere near the same as Hamilton struggling with severe lockups where it's plain to see exactly where the issue was.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:38 am 
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What 7 seasons? Kimi outqualified Vettel in 2016, and was ahead of Massa in quali in 2009 prior to incident.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:08 pm 
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Just a little post to say that I found it odd that yesterday for qualifying all the talk was about getting a tow, while 12 years ago that meant being impeded...

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Just a little post to say that I found it odd that yesterday for qualifying all the talk was about getting a tow, while 12 years ago that meant being impeded...


That was a corrupt decision in 06. No other explanation.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:58 pm 
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KIMBO2 wrote:
He was also out of the sport for two years in which he may have been able to get a couple of poles perhaps, some never have a good word to say about Kimi so why do they bother commenting on him at all.

His qualifying record against teammates since 2006 hasn't been that great, I see that merely as a fact.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:01 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Not since 2006.

not since 2006 what? You don't think he's ever shown decent one-lap pace since 2006? We're going to have to disagree on that one I'm afraid

Well in respect to qualifying since 2006 he was matched by both Massa and Grosjean and well beaten by both Vettel and Alonso, of course any driver might have his day but Kimi can't be considered an exceptional qualifier.



pokerman wrote:
there's a difference between saying he's not an exceptional qualifier and saying he's never been exceptional over one lap. Let's not move the goalposts here. He's managed to get poles and has produced some pretty decent efforts since 2006.

Since 2006 he's had 7 poles compared to the 21 poles of his teammates, Massa (11), Vettel (10), that's not an exceptional qualifier, Button got some poles during his career, he wouldn't be classed as an exceptional qualifier either.


although i dont think kimi is in the top league of quali pace, dont forget they used to qualify with race fuel until 2010 and kimi would generally run more fuel then montoya and massa. he always priorised the race over quali. (sorry ive completely c**ked up the quotes)

Which in regards to Massa has already been taken into account.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
You've not seen Vettel saying he was not happy with his lap because he made several mistakes?

I've seen him saying he was not happy, yes. If you really want to push this comparison, here's what Hamilton said after Canada:

So constantly today going into that corner I was struggling to get the car stopped, be it front locking or rear locking, so it was quite messy.

"I need to look into it to see exactly what it is, but that was definitely a good chunk of time there. Definitely just in that corner alone it was pole position for sure."


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11390886/canadian-gp-lewis-hamilton-rues-messy-qualifying-in-montreal

while today Vettel said:

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11485545/italian-gp-sebastian-vettel-keeps-qualifying-unhappiness-to-himself

Vettel certainly wasn't happy and felt he under-performed, but there wasn't one single area he could point to where he definitely lost a lot of time, like Hamilton did in Canada. But let's pretend they're exactly the same situation, shall we?

Yes I believe that's the article I saw, how did you manage to miss the salient bit to what I said?

Quote:
Vettel made an error through the first chicane and was not able to make up the gap despite a strong final sector.

"To be honest it was not a tidy lap and I think the other laps were actually better ones," he said. "I lost time pretty much everywhere.

"It was just not a good lap and not good enough. [I'm] lucky to get second and not third, but it's just not good enough."

I didn't miss it. The most salient bit is the one where he says he couldn't have gone any quicker. Case closed right there.

If you don't see the difference between saying it wasn't a tidy lap in general and specifically pointing to major locking up errors in a corner which cost a driver pole then there's little point discussing. You see what you want to see.

The article says that Vettel made an error in the first chicane and Vettel himself said it wasn't a tidy lap which means obviously that he made mistakes but you run with the one sentence that backed up what you said were perhaps at that time Vettel was looking not to take credit away from Kimi.

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