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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:09 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

:thumbup: Exactly, was going to say the same thing as you. Specially regarding Canada ;)

you mean the Canada where Hamilton admitted to struggling throughout qualifying and where he was never comfortable with the car? Where he kept uncharacteristically locking up under braking? That Canada? I don't think it's at all contentious to imagine that he would have gone quicker without his issues, and given that he was just over a tenth slower than Bottas and he himself thought he lost more than that by locking up, I'm pretty comfortable saying that an on-form Hamilton would have beaten Bottas.

No such issues presented themselves to Vettel here today, so think you guys are just reaching

You've not seen Vettel saying he was not happy with his lap because he made several mistakes?

I've seen him saying he was not happy, yes. If you really want to push this comparison, here's what Hamilton said after Canada:

So constantly today going into that corner I was struggling to get the car stopped, be it front locking or rear locking, so it was quite messy.

"I need to look into it to see exactly what it is, but that was definitely a good chunk of time there. Definitely just in that corner alone it was pole position for sure."


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11390886/canadian-gp-lewis-hamilton-rues-messy-qualifying-in-montreal

while today Vettel said:

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11485545/italian-gp-sebastian-vettel-keeps-qualifying-unhappiness-to-himself

Vettel certainly wasn't happy and felt he under-performed, but there wasn't one single area he could point to where he definitely lost a lot of time, like Hamilton did in Canada. But let's pretend they're exactly the same situation, shall we?


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... to-himself

Hamilton enjoyed the tow from his team-mate Valtteri Bottas but also claimed he would have been giving one to Vettel as the Ferrari was just behind him on track.

"Here the effect of the tow is huge for everyone and getting the gap right is important," the championship leader explained.

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

Was it Vettel or Hamilton who said this?

Well spotted it was actually Hamilton that said it not Vettel, what Vettel actually said is what I put forward.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I've seen him saying he was not happy, yes. If you really want to push this comparison, here's what Hamilton said after Canada:

So constantly today going into that corner I was struggling to get the car stopped, be it front locking or rear locking, so it was quite messy.

"I need to look into it to see exactly what it is, but that was definitely a good chunk of time there. Definitely just in that corner alone it was pole position for sure."


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11390886/canadian-gp-lewis-hamilton-rues-messy-qualifying-in-montreal

while today Vettel said:

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11485545/italian-gp-sebastian-vettel-keeps-qualifying-unhappiness-to-himself

Vettel certainly wasn't happy and felt he under-performed, but there wasn't one single area he could point to where he definitely lost a lot of time, like Hamilton did in Canada. But let's pretend they're exactly the same situation, shall we?


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... to-himself

Hamilton enjoyed the tow from his team-mate Valtteri Bottas but also claimed he would have been giving one to Vettel as the Ferrari was just behind him on track.

"Here the effect of the tow is huge for everyone and getting the gap right is important," the championship leader explained.

"At the end of the day Kimi did the job, I don't think I could have gone any quicker."

Was it Vettel or Hamilton who said this?

Ah yes, my bad. I missed that intervening paragraph, apologies. In my defence the rest of the article I quoted was about Vettel!

Still, doesn't change much. Vettel saying he had a scrappy lap isn't anywhere near the same as Hamilton struggling with severe lockups where it's plain to see exactly where the issue was.

How does it not change much, neither driver maximised their laps, methinks double standards in play here when trying to determine the ultimate performance of the cars.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I didn't miss it. The most salient bit is the one where he says he couldn't have gone any quicker. Case closed right there.

If you don't see the difference between saying it wasn't a tidy lap in general and specifically pointing to major locking up errors in a corner which cost a driver pole then there's little point discussing. You see what you want to see.

The article says that Vettel made an error in the first chicane and Vettel himself said it wasn't a tidy lap which means obviously that he made mistakes but you run with the one sentence that backed up what you said were perhaps at that time Vettel was looking not to take credit away from Kimi.

It's been explained multiple times. You just keep ignoring anything you don't understand. It's not worth the bother


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Just a little post to say that I found it odd that yesterday for qualifying all the talk was about getting a tow, while 12 years ago that meant being impeded...

I think most people realised at the time that was an unjust penalty.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ah yes, my bad. I missed that intervening paragraph, apologies. In my defence the rest of the article I quoted was about Vettel!

Still, doesn't change much. Vettel saying he had a scrappy lap isn't anywhere near the same as Hamilton struggling with severe lockups where it's plain to see exactly where the issue was.

How does it not change much, neither driver maximised their laps, methinks double standards in play here when trying to determine the ultimate performance of the cars.

Like I said, not worth it


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I didn't miss it. The most salient bit is the one where he says he couldn't have gone any quicker. Case closed right there.

If you don't see the difference between saying it wasn't a tidy lap in general and specifically pointing to major locking up errors in a corner which cost a driver pole then there's little point discussing. You see what you want to see.

The article says that Vettel made an error in the first chicane and Vettel himself said it wasn't a tidy lap which means obviously that he made mistakes but you run with the one sentence that backed up what you said were perhaps at that time Vettel was looking not to take credit away from Kimi.

It's been explained multiple times. You just keep ignoring anything you don't understand. It's not worth the bother

All I see is someone running with something that he thought proved his point and when found to be wrong will not back down, you thought Vettel maximised his lap to show it was different to Hamilton's messed up lap in Canada, you made a mistake but now that doesn't even matter because your point still stands.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I didn't miss it. The most salient bit is the one where he says he couldn't have gone any quicker. Case closed right there.

If you don't see the difference between saying it wasn't a tidy lap in general and specifically pointing to major locking up errors in a corner which cost a driver pole then there's little point discussing. You see what you want to see.

The article says that Vettel made an error in the first chicane and Vettel himself said it wasn't a tidy lap which means obviously that he made mistakes but you run with the one sentence that backed up what you said were perhaps at that time Vettel was looking not to take credit away from Kimi.

It's been explained multiple times. You just keep ignoring anything you don't understand. It's not worth the bother

All I see is someone running with something that he thought proved his point and when found to be wrong will not back down, you thought Vettel maximised his lap to show it was different to Hamilton's messed up lap in Canada, you made a mistake but now that doesn't even matter because your point still stands.

Where did I say he maximised his lap? I ran a quote, which I've already admitted I got wrong and apologised for, so not sure where the refusal to back down comes from.

The key point, which is frankly utterly bizarre that you don't get, is that a driver saying he wasn't happy with his lap is nowhere near the same as one where a highly visible lockup occurs which has an obvious impact on it. Vettel said his final lap was worse than his previous ones, which is plainly not true as he improved his time. Did he leave time on the table? Of course he did, because Kimi was quicker. But could he have gone quicker than Kimi? Well, he hasn't claimed that, has he? Who can say? But Hamilton categorically stated that his lockups cost him pole, so the two scenarios are completely different. But all this will just go over your head because as usual you just fixate on one thing and ignore any argument which doesn't fit in with it.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Just a little post to say that I found it odd that yesterday for qualifying all the talk was about getting a tow, while 12 years ago that meant being impeded...


That was a corrupt decision in 06. No other explanation.

Makes me wonder what other results they have fiddled over the years to get the result they wanted.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Just a little post to say that I found it odd that yesterday for qualifying all the talk was about getting a tow, while 12 years ago that meant being impeded...


That was a corrupt decision in 06. No other explanation.
Actually, it wasn't corrupt at all. Whether we liked that decision or not, it was completely according to the rules then in force. At that time, there was a permanent steward, in an effort to make racing fair, and penalties consistent. Because he was "too consistent", the result was what is now euphemistically called "letting them race".

I have to be honest and admit I don't know whether track limits were policed to any extent at that time. But I don't doubt for a second that penalties would have been handed out without good reason, and consistently, if they had been.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:59 pm 
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The tows on the final runs.

Hamilton started his lap 3.2 seconds behind Bottas
Vettel started his lap 3.7 seconds behind Hamilton
Raikkonen started his lap 2.5 seconds behind Vettel

I don’t know what is optimum but that was the gaps they had as they crossed the line to start their final Q3 runs


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:27 pm 
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Raikkonen on board


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q5_fo16E4LU

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:04 am 
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Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Just a little post to say that I found it odd that yesterday for qualifying all the talk was about getting a tow, while 12 years ago that meant being impeded...


That was a corrupt decision in 06. No other explanation.
Actually, it wasn't corrupt at all. Whether we liked that decision or not, it was completely according to the rules then in force. At that time, there was a permanent steward, in an effort to make racing fair, and penalties consistent. Because he was "too consistent", the result was what is now euphemistically called "letting them race".

I have to be honest and admit I don't know whether track limits were policed to any extent at that time. But I don't doubt for a second that penalties would have been handed out without good reason, and consistently, if they had been.


It wasn't a consistent decision though in this case.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:46 am 
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I know Vettel want to emulate his hero, but maybe he should ease up on that a bit!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:23 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:






I know Vettel want to emulate his hero, but maybe he should ease up on that a bit!

Well it took Schumacher 5 years to get his first title for Ferrari, Vettel's in his 4th year so maybe let Hamilton have the title this year otherwise he will be a year too early. ;)

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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