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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 1447
I myself in the past have often agreed with the rankings on F1 Fanatic, now known as Racefans. I do agree with a lot again this year, but some IMO are well off.

Rankings 1 - 5: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/17/201 ... nt-3840630
Rankings 6 - 12: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/15/201 ... rt-2-12-6/
Rankings 13 - 20: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/13/201 ... t-1-20-13/

The main ones I disagree with (ones I would move up or down at least 3 places) are Ericsson in 19th, Raikonnen in 14th, Magnussen in 11th and Verstappen in 6th (this one really baffles me).

These are my rankings:

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Sebastian Vettel
4 – Valterri Bottas
5 – Daniel Ricciardo
6 – Charles Leclerc
7 – Esteban Ocon
8 – Kevin Magnussen
9 – Nico Hulkenberg
10 – Pierre Gasly
11 – Kimi Raikonnen
12 – Max Verstappen
13 – Sergio Perez
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Marcus Ericsson
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Lance Stroll
19 – Sergey Sirotkin
20 – Romain Grosjean


I did wonder about copying and pasting my comment description from the racefans page (the first link) onto this page, but I think if people are interested in my explanation for my rankings, then can just find it in the comments on that page. I'm called the same name (the part in brackets on the page anyway) as on this forum. I made a mistake with the ranking on that page though as i wrote it a few days a go in a document without updating the list when I changed my mind. I just had wrote about it without changing the list. It is correct here and i commented to correct myself on racefans.


What are other people's views. I know we are going to get some very different ones. But I think the main 2 that stand out on the rankings on race fans is how harshly Kimi ahs been rated and how high Verstappen has been. But at least they do have a rough description for each.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:11 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14051
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I myself in the past have often agreed with the rankings on F1 Fanatic, now known as Racefans. I do agree with a lot again this year, but some IMO are well off.

Rankings 1 - 5: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/17/201 ... nt-3840630
Rankings 6 - 12: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/15/201 ... rt-2-12-6/
Rankings 13 - 20: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/13/201 ... t-1-20-13/

The main ones I disagree with (ones I would move up or down at least 3 places) are Ericsson in 19th, Raikonnen in 14th, Magnussen in 11th and Verstappen in 6th (this one really baffles me).

These are my rankings:

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Sebastian Vettel
4 – Valterri Bottas
5 – Daniel Ricciardo
6 – Charles Leclerc
7 – Esteban Ocon
8 – Kevin Magnussen
9 – Nico Hulkenberg
10 – Pierre Gasly
11 – Kimi Raikonnen
12 – Max Verstappen
13 – Sergio Perez
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Marcus Ericsson
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Lance Stroll
19 – Sergey Sirotkin
20 – Romain Grosjean


I did wonder about copying and pasting my comment description from the racefans page (the first link) onto this page, but I think if people are interested in my explanation for my rankings, then can just find it in the comments on that page. I'm called the same name (the part in brackets on the page anyway) as on this forum. I made a mistake with the ranking on that page though as i wrote it a few days a go in a document without updating the list when I changed my mind. I just had wrote about it without changing the list. It is correct here and i commented to correct myself on racefans.


What are other people's views. I know we are going to get some very different ones. But I think the main 2 that stand out on the rankings on race fans is how harshly Kimi ahs been rated and how high Verstappen has been. But at least they do have a rough description for each.


I think unsurprisingly you're well underrating Verstappen. your gap between Ocon and Perez baffles me as well. They've been pretty even. I'd put both high up. I don't think Magnussen has suddenly magically become better than Perez. He's just now driving a better car so he can achieve higher results. You put Ocon and Perez in the Haas and they been consistently picking up 5th/6th/7th.

My list would be something like this -

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Daniel Ricciardo
4 – Sebastien Vettel
5 – Valteri Bottas
6 – Max Verstappen
7 – Charles Leclerc
8 - Nico Hulkenberg
9 – Esteban Ocon
10 – Kimi Raikkonen
11 – Sergio Perez
12 – kevin Magnussen
13 – Pierre Gasley
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Romain Grosjean
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Marcus Ericsson
19 – Lance Stroll
20 – Sergey Sirotkin

The interesting thing is when writing that I really didn't feel like anyone deserved to be number one.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 1447
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I myself in the past have often agreed with the rankings on F1 Fanatic, now known as Racefans. I do agree with a lot again this year, but some IMO are well off.

Rankings 1 - 5: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/17/201 ... nt-3840630
Rankings 6 - 12: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/15/201 ... rt-2-12-6/
Rankings 13 - 20: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/13/201 ... t-1-20-13/

The main ones I disagree with (ones I would move up or down at least 3 places) are Ericsson in 19th, Raikonnen in 14th, Magnussen in 11th and Verstappen in 6th (this one really baffles me).

These are my rankings:

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Sebastian Vettel
4 – Valterri Bottas
5 – Daniel Ricciardo
6 – Charles Leclerc
7 – Esteban Ocon
8 – Kevin Magnussen
9 – Nico Hulkenberg
10 – Pierre Gasly
11 – Kimi Raikonnen
12 – Max Verstappen
13 – Sergio Perez
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Marcus Ericsson
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Lance Stroll
19 – Sergey Sirotkin
20 – Romain Grosjean


I did wonder about copying and pasting my comment description from the racefans page (the first link) onto this page, but I think if people are interested in my explanation for my rankings, then can just find it in the comments on that page. I'm called the same name (the part in brackets on the page anyway) as on this forum. I made a mistake with the ranking on that page though as i wrote it a few days a go in a document without updating the list when I changed my mind. I just had wrote about it without changing the list. It is correct here and i commented to correct myself on racefans.


What are other people's views. I know we are going to get some very different ones. But I think the main 2 that stand out on the rankings on race fans is how harshly Kimi ahs been rated and how high Verstappen has been. But at least they do have a rough description for each.


I think unsurprisingly you're well underrating Verstappen. your gap between Ocon and Perez baffles me as well. They've been pretty even. I'd put both high up. I don't think Magnussen has suddenly magically become better than Perez. He's just now driving a better car so he can achieve higher results. You put Ocon and Perez in the Haas and they been consistently picking up 5th/6th/7th.

My list would be something like this -

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Daniel Ricciardo
4 – Sebastien Vettel
5 – Valteri Bottas
6 – Max Verstappen
7 – Charles Leclerc
8 - Nico Hulkenberg
9 – Esteban Ocon
10 – Kimi Raikkonen
11 – Sergio Perez
12 – kevin Magnussen
13 – Pierre Gasley
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Romain Grosjean
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Marcus Ericsson
19 – Lance Stroll
20 – Sergey Sirotkin

The interesting thing is when writing that I really didn't feel like anyone deserved to be number one.

I had that same feeling with number 1. Don't think anybody has been perfect. Regarding Verstappen, as I described on the other site, his first 4 races were terrible. Then Monaco too. That is basically a very poor half of the half season. And he hasn't been superb in every race since, so that is why I think above 10th is a little generous. 6th to me is really high indeed. He's in a top car and he's lost him self so many points. Ricciardo has had 1 or 2 more retirements that were not his fault and he's still ahead (not counting Baku). I know that Verstappen has since got back and is generally excellent, but i just can't understand why others are not fully factoring in how bad his start was. If you look at it, he's just behind Bottas in your rankings. Has Bottas had 2 retirements both being heavily his own fault as well as being involved in countless other incidents? No. And he's IMO had at least at many stand out races as Verstappen and he's been up against a tougher team mate. Verstappen almost always will likely have more pace than Bottas, but I don't know how they can be separated by just one place. Has Verstappen been absolutely miles better than Bottas in the last 6 races or something? That is about the only reason I could see for him being this close. Anywhere between where I rated him and just in the top 10, but 6th is just too high. But yes, it's my opinion.

Regarding Perez and Ocon, I think you are maybe right there. It does look very far away from Ocon. I maybe was to influenced by the qualifying runs in the fact that is is 9 - 3 to Ocon. but even in the races that were fair to compare, it is 7 - 2. That is quite a bit. And if you think about it, yes Ocon did throw away a podium in Azerbaijan, but a podium didn't look expected at that moment. But Perez sort of lucked into that with about 4 things going wrong for drivers up ahead of him. Without that, there still will have been 3 retirements and he'll have got 6 points instead of 15. And would be 14/15th in the championship ratehr than 10th. It is strange to think that he got 50% of his poitns in this race alone. His season has not been bad, but I think Ocon has actually looked quite a bit better. Maybe I've been a bit to generous with Ocon though, so maybe move him down a couple of places. Like I said, comments may influence my decisions.

But doing this maybe does make Magnussen look a bit high. I said myself that his overtaking doesn't look the cleanest. So maybe I would move him down a bit. But I still think Magnussen is having a better season than the force India pair, but maybe the car is helping me think that. I'm not sure.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 2877
Location: UK
It depends how the ranking is defined. Verstappen is obviously one of the top drivers but if we're ranking solely on form so far this season then I don't see how he can be put in the top half. He was woeful in the first six races and overall has made more mistakes than anyone.

Based on this season's form alone I would probably rank them like below. Alonso is still the standout performer for me, I think Vandoorne is showing how good that McLaren really is.

1 – Fernando Alonso
2 - Lewis Hamilton
3 – Valtteri Bottas
4 – Charles Leclerc
5 – Daniel Ricciardo
6 – Sebastian Vettel
7 – Kevin Magnussen
8 – Nico Hulkenberg
9 – Pierre Gasly
10 – Kimi Raikkonen
11 – Max Verstappen
12 – Esteban Ocon
13 – Carlos Sainz
14 – Sergio Perez
15 – Marcus Ericsson
16 – Lance Stroll
17 – Sergey Sirotkin
18 – Stoffel Vandoorne
19 – Brendon Hartley
20 – Romain Grosjean

I'm probably doing a disservice to the Force India drivers as the car is not as strong this season but someone has to be in the bottom half!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14051
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I myself in the past have often agreed with the rankings on F1 Fanatic, now known as Racefans. I do agree with a lot again this year, but some IMO are well off.

Rankings 1 - 5: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/17/201 ... nt-3840630
Rankings 6 - 12: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/15/201 ... rt-2-12-6/
Rankings 13 - 20: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/13/201 ... t-1-20-13/

The main ones I disagree with (ones I would move up or down at least 3 places) are Ericsson in 19th, Raikonnen in 14th, Magnussen in 11th and Verstappen in 6th (this one really baffles me).

These are my rankings:

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Sebastian Vettel
4 – Valterri Bottas
5 – Daniel Ricciardo
6 – Charles Leclerc
7 – Esteban Ocon
8 – Kevin Magnussen
9 – Nico Hulkenberg
10 – Pierre Gasly
11 – Kimi Raikonnen
12 – Max Verstappen
13 – Sergio Perez
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Marcus Ericsson
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Lance Stroll
19 – Sergey Sirotkin
20 – Romain Grosjean


I did wonder about copying and pasting my comment description from the racefans page (the first link) onto this page, but I think if people are interested in my explanation for my rankings, then can just find it in the comments on that page. I'm called the same name (the part in brackets on the page anyway) as on this forum. I made a mistake with the ranking on that page though as i wrote it a few days a go in a document without updating the list when I changed my mind. I just had wrote about it without changing the list. It is correct here and i commented to correct myself on racefans.


What are other people's views. I know we are going to get some very different ones. But I think the main 2 that stand out on the rankings on race fans is how harshly Kimi ahs been rated and how high Verstappen has been. But at least they do have a rough description for each.


I think unsurprisingly you're well underrating Verstappen. your gap between Ocon and Perez baffles me as well. They've been pretty even. I'd put both high up. I don't think Magnussen has suddenly magically become better than Perez. He's just now driving a better car so he can achieve higher results. You put Ocon and Perez in the Haas and they been consistently picking up 5th/6th/7th.

My list would be something like this -

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Daniel Ricciardo
4 – Sebastien Vettel
5 – Valteri Bottas
6 – Max Verstappen
7 – Charles Leclerc
8 - Nico Hulkenberg
9 – Esteban Ocon
10 – Kimi Raikkonen
11 – Sergio Perez
12 – kevin Magnussen
13 – Pierre Gasley
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Romain Grosjean
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Marcus Ericsson
19 – Lance Stroll
20 – Sergey Sirotkin

The interesting thing is when writing that I really didn't feel like anyone deserved to be number one.

I had that same feeling with number 1. Don't think anybody has been perfect. Regarding Verstappen, as I described on the other site, his first 4 races were terrible. Then Monaco too. That is basically a very poor half of the half season. And he hasn't been superb in every race since, so that is why I think above 10th is a little generous. 6th to me is really high indeed. He's in a top car and he's lost him self so many points. Ricciardo has had 1 or 2 more retirements that were not his fault and he's still ahead (not counting Baku). I know that Verstappen has since got back and is generally excellent, but i just can't understand why others are not fully factoring in how bad his start was. If you look at it, he's just behind Bottas in your rankings. Has Bottas had 2 retirements both being heavily his own fault as well as being involved in countless other incidents? No. And he's IMO had at least at many stand out races as Verstappen and he's been up against a tougher team mate. Verstappen almost always will likely have more pace than Bottas, but I don't know how they can be separated by just one place. Has Verstappen been absolutely miles better than Bottas in the last 6 races or something? That is about the only reason I could see for him being this close. Anywhere between where I rated him and just in the top 10, but 6th is just too high. But yes, it's my opinion.

Regarding Perez and Ocon, I think you are maybe right there. It does look very far away from Ocon. I maybe was to influenced by the qualifying runs in the fact that is is 9 - 3 to Ocon. but even in the races that were fair to compare, it is 7 - 2. That is quite a bit. And if you think about it, yes Ocon did throw away a podium in Azerbaijan, but a podium didn't look expected at that moment. But Perez sort of lucked into that with about 4 things going wrong for drivers up ahead of him. Without that, there still will have been 3 retirements and he'll have got 6 points instead of 15. And would be 14/15th in the championship ratehr than 10th. It is strange to think that he got 50% of his poitns in this race alone. His season has not been bad, but I think Ocon has actually looked quite a bit better. Maybe I've been a bit to generous with Ocon though, so maybe move him down a couple of places. Like I said, comments may influence my decisions.

But doing this maybe does make Magnussen look a bit high. I said myself that his overtaking doesn't look the cleanest. So maybe I would move him down a bit. But I still think Magnussen is having a better season than the force India pair, but maybe the car is helping me think that. I'm not sure.


I think you put too much weight behind mistakes and not enough for actual quality performances. I certainly think you could make a case for Verstappen being better in more races than Gasly for example.

On Gasly I think both STR drivers have been underperforming the car to a degree. Ironically I think it's Gasly's strong performance in Bahrain that exposed him. He's always been a specialist there and probably showed where that car should be most of the time. Hartley was no better than normal in Bahrain so it wasn't just that the track suited the car.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 1447
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I myself in the past have often agreed with the rankings on F1 Fanatic, now known as Racefans. I do agree with a lot again this year, but some IMO are well off.

Rankings 1 - 5: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/17/201 ... nt-3840630
Rankings 6 - 12: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/15/201 ... rt-2-12-6/
Rankings 13 - 20: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/13/201 ... t-1-20-13/

The main ones I disagree with (ones I would move up or down at least 3 places) are Ericsson in 19th, Raikonnen in 14th, Magnussen in 11th and Verstappen in 6th (this one really baffles me).

These are my rankings:

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Sebastian Vettel
4 – Valterri Bottas
5 – Daniel Ricciardo
6 – Charles Leclerc
7 – Esteban Ocon
8 – Kevin Magnussen
9 – Nico Hulkenberg
10 – Pierre Gasly
11 – Kimi Raikonnen
12 – Max Verstappen
13 – Sergio Perez
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Marcus Ericsson
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Lance Stroll
19 – Sergey Sirotkin
20 – Romain Grosjean


I did wonder about copying and pasting my comment description from the racefans page (the first link) onto this page, but I think if people are interested in my explanation for my rankings, then can just find it in the comments on that page. I'm called the same name (the part in brackets on the page anyway) as on this forum. I made a mistake with the ranking on that page though as i wrote it a few days a go in a document without updating the list when I changed my mind. I just had wrote about it without changing the list. It is correct here and i commented to correct myself on racefans.


What are other people's views. I know we are going to get some very different ones. But I think the main 2 that stand out on the rankings on race fans is how harshly Kimi ahs been rated and how high Verstappen has been. But at least they do have a rough description for each.


I think unsurprisingly you're well underrating Verstappen. your gap between Ocon and Perez baffles me as well. They've been pretty even. I'd put both high up. I don't think Magnussen has suddenly magically become better than Perez. He's just now driving a better car so he can achieve higher results. You put Ocon and Perez in the Haas and they been consistently picking up 5th/6th/7th.

My list would be something like this -

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Daniel Ricciardo
4 – Sebastien Vettel
5 – Valteri Bottas
6 – Max Verstappen
7 – Charles Leclerc
8 - Nico Hulkenberg
9 – Esteban Ocon
10 – Kimi Raikkonen
11 – Sergio Perez
12 – kevin Magnussen
13 – Pierre Gasley
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Romain Grosjean
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Marcus Ericsson
19 – Lance Stroll
20 – Sergey Sirotkin

The interesting thing is when writing that I really didn't feel like anyone deserved to be number one.

I had that same feeling with number 1. Don't think anybody has been perfect. Regarding Verstappen, as I described on the other site, his first 4 races were terrible. Then Monaco too. That is basically a very poor half of the half season. And he hasn't been superb in every race since, so that is why I think above 10th is a little generous. 6th to me is really high indeed. He's in a top car and he's lost him self so many points. Ricciardo has had 1 or 2 more retirements that were not his fault and he's still ahead (not counting Baku). I know that Verstappen has since got back and is generally excellent, but i just can't understand why others are not fully factoring in how bad his start was. If you look at it, he's just behind Bottas in your rankings. Has Bottas had 2 retirements both being heavily his own fault as well as being involved in countless other incidents? No. And he's IMO had at least at many stand out races as Verstappen and he's been up against a tougher team mate. Verstappen almost always will likely have more pace than Bottas, but I don't know how they can be separated by just one place. Has Verstappen been absolutely miles better than Bottas in the last 6 races or something? That is about the only reason I could see for him being this close. Anywhere between where I rated him and just in the top 10, but 6th is just too high. But yes, it's my opinion.

Regarding Perez and Ocon, I think you are maybe right there. It does look very far away from Ocon. I maybe was to influenced by the qualifying runs in the fact that is is 9 - 3 to Ocon. but even in the races that were fair to compare, it is 7 - 2. That is quite a bit. And if you think about it, yes Ocon did throw away a podium in Azerbaijan, but a podium didn't look expected at that moment. But Perez sort of lucked into that with about 4 things going wrong for drivers up ahead of him. Without that, there still will have been 3 retirements and he'll have got 6 points instead of 15. And would be 14/15th in the championship ratehr than 10th. It is strange to think that he got 50% of his poitns in this race alone. His season has not been bad, but I think Ocon has actually looked quite a bit better. Maybe I've been a bit to generous with Ocon though, so maybe move him down a couple of places. Like I said, comments may influence my decisions.

But doing this maybe does make Magnussen look a bit high. I said myself that his overtaking doesn't look the cleanest. So maybe I would move him down a bit. But I still think Magnussen is having a better season than the force India pair, but maybe the car is helping me think that. I'm not sure.


I think you put too much weight behind mistakes and not enough for actual quality performances. I certainly think you could make a case for Verstappen being better in more races than Gasly for example.

On Gasly I think both STR drivers have been underperforming the car to a degree. Ironically I think it's Gasly's strong performance in Bahrain that exposed him. He's always been a specialist there and probably showed where that car should be most of the time. Hartley was no better than normal in Bahrain so it wasn't just that the track suited the car.

Yes, but i feel you are possibly the other way round. I agree with what j man says above in that he was overall very poor in the first 6 races and has made more mistakes than any other driver this season, given that every other race hasn;t been outstanding and something has been very poor in at least 5 of them, it is difficult to rate him higher than 10th. Especially given not ever race since he's recovered has actually been outstanding. He'd been excellent in some, but others were not that special.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2269
1. Fernando Alonso
2. Lewis Hamilton
3. Daniel Ricciardo
4. Sebastian Vettel
5. Valtteri Bottas
6. Nico Hulkenberg
7. Max Verstappen
8. Kevin Magnussen
9. Charles Leclerc
10. Esteban Ocon
11. Kimi Raikkonen
12. Sergio Perez
13. Pierre Gasly
14. Carlos Sainz
15. Stoffel Vandoorne
16. Brendon Hartley
17. Lance Stroll
18. Marcus Ericsson
19. Romain Grosjean
20. Sergej Sirotkin


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 1810
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I myself in the past have often agreed with the rankings on F1 Fanatic, now known as Racefans. I do agree with a lot again this year, but some IMO are well off.

Rankings 1 - 5: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/17/201 ... nt-3840630
Rankings 6 - 12: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/15/201 ... rt-2-12-6/
Rankings 13 - 20: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/13/201 ... t-1-20-13/

The main ones I disagree with (ones I would move up or down at least 3 places) are Ericsson in 19th, Raikonnen in 14th, Magnussen in 11th and Verstappen in 6th (this one really baffles me).

These are my rankings:

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Sebastian Vettel
4 – Valterri Bottas
5 – Daniel Ricciardo
6 – Charles Leclerc
7 – Esteban Ocon
8 – Kevin Magnussen
9 – Nico Hulkenberg
10 – Pierre Gasly
11 – Kimi Raikonnen
12 – Max Verstappen
13 – Sergio Perez
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Marcus Ericsson
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Lance Stroll
19 – Sergey Sirotkin
20 – Romain Grosjean


I did wonder about copying and pasting my comment description from the racefans page (the first link) onto this page, but I think if people are interested in my explanation for my rankings, then can just find it in the comments on that page. I'm called the same name (the part in brackets on the page anyway) as on this forum. I made a mistake with the ranking on that page though as i wrote it a few days a go in a document without updating the list when I changed my mind. I just had wrote about it without changing the list. It is correct here and i commented to correct myself on racefans.


What are other people's views. I know we are going to get some very different ones. But I think the main 2 that stand out on the rankings on race fans is how harshly Kimi ahs been rated and how high Verstappen has been. But at least they do have a rough description for each.



I can say that according to the raw scores of my spreadsheets that the order of the drivers of the top 6 cars is currently as follows:

1. Hamilton
gap
2. Ricciardo
gap
3. Vettel
gap
4. Bottas
5. Raikkonen
6. Verstappen

However, Verstappen crippled himself in my system through extremely poor early season performance. Since, he's already almost done enough to overtake both Bottas and Raikkonen - he's barely behind.

I'll try a top 20...

Excellent
1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso

Quite Excellent
3 – Daniel Ricciardo
4 – Sebastian Vettel
5 – Nico Hulkenberg

Very Good
6 – Valtteri Bottas
7 – Kimi Raikkonen
8 – Max Verstappen
9 – Kevin Magnussen
10 – Esteban Ocon
11 – Charles Leclerc

Good
12 – Sergio Perez
13 – Carlos Sainz
14 – Pierre Gasly

Passable
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne

Not quite cutting it
16 – Marcus Ericsson
17 – Brendon Hartley

Poor
18 – Romain Grosjean
19 – Lance Stroll
20 – Sergey Sirotkin

Subject to change.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:40 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I myself in the past have often agreed with the rankings on F1 Fanatic, now known as Racefans. I do agree with a lot again this year, but some IMO are well off.

Rankings 1 - 5: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/17/201 ... nt-3840630
Rankings 6 - 12: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/15/201 ... rt-2-12-6/
Rankings 13 - 20: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/13/201 ... t-1-20-13/

The main ones I disagree with (ones I would move up or down at least 3 places) are Ericsson in 19th, Raikonnen in 14th, Magnussen in 11th and Verstappen in 6th (this one really baffles me).

These are my rankings:

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Sebastian Vettel
4 – Valterri Bottas
5 – Daniel Ricciardo
6 – Charles Leclerc
7 – Esteban Ocon
8 – Kevin Magnussen
9 – Nico Hulkenberg
10 – Pierre Gasly
11 – Kimi Raikonnen
12 – Max Verstappen
13 – Sergio Perez
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Marcus Ericsson
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Lance Stroll
19 – Sergey Sirotkin
20 – Romain Grosjean


I did wonder about copying and pasting my comment description from the racefans page (the first link) onto this page, but I think if people are interested in my explanation for my rankings, then can just find it in the comments on that page. I'm called the same name (the part in brackets on the page anyway) as on this forum. I made a mistake with the ranking on that page though as i wrote it a few days a go in a document without updating the list when I changed my mind. I just had wrote about it without changing the list. It is correct here and i commented to correct myself on racefans.


What are other people's views. I know we are going to get some very different ones. But I think the main 2 that stand out on the rankings on race fans is how harshly Kimi ahs been rated and how high Verstappen has been. But at least they do have a rough description for each.


I think unsurprisingly you're well underrating Verstappen. your gap between Ocon and Perez baffles me as well. They've been pretty even. I'd put both high up. I don't think Magnussen has suddenly magically become better than Perez. He's just now driving a better car so he can achieve higher results. You put Ocon and Perez in the Haas and they been consistently picking up 5th/6th/7th.

My list would be something like this -

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Daniel Ricciardo
4 – Sebastien Vettel
5 – Valteri Bottas
6 – Max Verstappen
7 – Charles Leclerc
8 - Nico Hulkenberg
9 – Esteban Ocon
10 – Kimi Raikkonen
11 – Sergio Perez
12 – kevin Magnussen
13 – Pierre Gasley
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Romain Grosjean
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Marcus Ericsson
19 – Lance Stroll
20 – Sergey Sirotkin

The interesting thing is when writing that I really didn't feel like anyone deserved to be number one.

I had that same feeling with number 1. Don't think anybody has been perfect. Regarding Verstappen, as I described on the other site, his first 4 races were terrible. Then Monaco too. That is basically a very poor half of the half season. And he hasn't been superb in every race since, so that is why I think above 10th is a little generous. 6th to me is really high indeed. He's in a top car and he's lost him self so many points. Ricciardo has had 1 or 2 more retirements that were not his fault and he's still ahead (not counting Baku). I know that Verstappen has since got back and is generally excellent, but i just can't understand why others are not fully factoring in how bad his start was. If you look at it, he's just behind Bottas in your rankings. Has Bottas had 2 retirements both being heavily his own fault as well as being involved in countless other incidents? No. And he's IMO had at least at many stand out races as Verstappen and he's been up against a tougher team mate. Verstappen almost always will likely have more pace than Bottas, but I don't know how they can be separated by just one place. Has Verstappen been absolutely miles better than Bottas in the last 6 races or something? That is about the only reason I could see for him being this close. Anywhere between where I rated him and just in the top 10, but 6th is just too high. But yes, it's my opinion.

Regarding Perez and Ocon, I think you are maybe right there. It does look very far away from Ocon. I maybe was to influenced by the qualifying runs in the fact that is is 9 - 3 to Ocon. but even in the races that were fair to compare, it is 7 - 2. That is quite a bit. And if you think about it, yes Ocon did throw away a podium in Azerbaijan, but a podium didn't look expected at that moment. But Perez sort of lucked into that with about 4 things going wrong for drivers up ahead of him. Without that, there still will have been 3 retirements and he'll have got 6 points instead of 15. And would be 14/15th in the championship ratehr than 10th. It is strange to think that he got 50% of his poitns in this race alone. His season has not been bad, but I think Ocon has actually looked quite a bit better. Maybe I've been a bit to generous with Ocon though, so maybe move him down a couple of places. Like I said, comments may influence my decisions.

But doing this maybe does make Magnussen look a bit high. I said myself that his overtaking doesn't look the cleanest. So maybe I would move him down a bit. But I still think Magnussen is having a better season than the force India pair, but maybe the car is helping me think that. I'm not sure.


I think you put too much weight behind mistakes and not enough for actual quality performances. I certainly think you could make a case for Verstappen being better in more races than Gasly for example.

On Gasly I think both STR drivers have been underperforming the car to a degree. Ironically I think it's Gasly's strong performance in Bahrain that exposed him. He's always been a specialist there and probably showed where that car should be most of the time. Hartley was no better than normal in Bahrain so it wasn't just that the track suited the car.

Yes, but i feel you are possibly the other way round. I agree with what j man says above in that he was overall very poor in the first 6 races and has made more mistakes than any other driver this season, given that every other race hasn;t been outstanding and something has been very poor in at least 5 of them, it is difficult to rate him higher than 10th. Especially given not ever race since he's recovered has actually been outstanding. He'd been excellent in some, but others were not that special.


10th I wouldn't take much issue with. You rated him behind the likes of Gasly. I mean your welcome to your opinion but I don't think quite that low a rating stands up to scrutiny.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

10th I wouldn't take much issue with. You rated him behind the likes of Gasly. I mean your welcome to your opinion but I don't think quite that low a rating stands up to scrutiny.


I've no doubt that Verstappen's pace is well above Gasly's and that the standard racing pedigree he brings would comfortably oust Gasly were they paired together. He's faster than Ricciardo, never mind Gasly.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:54 pm 
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Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

10th I wouldn't take much issue with. You rated him behind the likes of Gasly. I mean your welcome to your opinion but I don't think quite that low a rating stands up to scrutiny.


I've no doubt that Verstappen's pace is well above Gasly's and that the standard racing pedigree he brings would comfortably oust Gasly were they paired together. He's faster than Ricciardo, never mind Gasly.

Yes, he's quicker and has been vertually all year, but that speed advantage was totally waisted at 5 weekends. What he's done since hasn't made up for that IMO. Maybe it is harsh for me to rate gasly above and by this much, but I thought long and hard about it all and it is difficult to get everything even how i want it. Just 2 say, comeone else on this page has gasly 2 places ahead of Verstappen too ;)


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:59 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

10th I wouldn't take much issue with. You rated him behind the likes of Gasly. I mean your welcome to your opinion but I don't think quite that low a rating stands up to scrutiny.


I've no doubt that Verstappen's pace is well above Gasly's and that the standard racing pedigree he brings would comfortably oust Gasly were they paired together. He's faster than Ricciardo, never mind Gasly.

Yes, he's quicker and has been vertually all year, but that speed advantage was totally waisted at 5 weekends. What he's done since hasn't made up for that IMO. Maybe it is harsh for me to rate gasly above and by this much, but I thought long and hard about it all and it is difficult to get everything even how i want it.


Fair enough. I have a system which judges race by race (qualifying, the race and the race weekend) and he's done enough to almost be on par with Bottas, never mind Gasly. But I'm too stupid to track all 20 drivers. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:15 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

10th I wouldn't take much issue with. You rated him behind the likes of Gasly. I mean your welcome to your opinion but I don't think quite that low a rating stands up to scrutiny.


I've no doubt that Verstappen's pace is well above Gasly's and that the standard racing pedigree he brings would comfortably oust Gasly were they paired together. He's faster than Ricciardo, never mind Gasly.

Yes, he's quicker and has been vertually all year, but that speed advantage was totally waisted at 5 weekends. What he's done since hasn't made up for that IMO. Maybe it is harsh for me to rate gasly above and by this much, but I thought long and hard about it all and it is difficult to get everything even how i want it. Just 2 say, comeone else on this page has gasly 2 places ahead of Verstappen too ;)


If Verstappen has performed better in more races than Gasly though....


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:24 pm 
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BTW, for an overview of public opinion (of more extreme fanatics), you guys might find this interesting...

https://www.f1hotornot.com/polls/results/

Naturally, it's hardly the be all and end all. I can't help but sense some delicious Ferrari bias but hey ho.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:26 pm 
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1. Fernando Alonso
2. Lewis Hamilton
3. Charles Leclerc
4. Kevin Magnussen
5. Daniel Ricciardo
6. Sebastin Vettel
7. Valteri Bottas
8. Max Verstappen
9. Nico Hülkenberg
10. Pierre Gasly
11. Esteban Ocon
12. Sergio Perez
13. Kimi Räikkönen
14. Carlos Sainz
15. Stoffel Vandoorne
16. Marcus Ericsson
17. Romain Grosjean
18. Brendon Hartley
19. Lance Stroll
20. Sergej Sirotkin

Rated according to the performance this season, not to overall talent (Verstappen and Vettel would of course be higher, then).


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:32 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

10th I wouldn't take much issue with. You rated him behind the likes of Gasly. I mean your welcome to your opinion but I don't think quite that low a rating stands up to scrutiny.


I've no doubt that Verstappen's pace is well above Gasly's and that the standard racing pedigree he brings would comfortably oust Gasly were they paired together. He's faster than Ricciardo, never mind Gasly.

Yes, he's quicker and has been vertually all year, but that speed advantage was totally waisted at 5 weekends. What he's done since hasn't made up for that IMO. Maybe it is harsh for me to rate gasly above and by this much, but I thought long and hard about it all and it is difficult to get everything even how i want it. Just 2 say, comeone else on this page has gasly 2 places ahead of Verstappen too ;)


If Verstappen has performed better in more races than Gasly though....

But who has performed worse in rather a lot more? Verstappen. Guess we are not going to agree, but I think there is enough of a reason for voting Verstappen behind, despite me knowing he is much better, and has been since his slump. But I can't ignore those weekends. Gasly has underperformed in as many races maybe, but he hasn't had any clumsy retirements, dreadful races or crashed in qualifying. And I think he's had at least 2 outstanding weekends. And I don't think Verstappen has had that many more than 2 have impressed me a lot.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:38 pm 
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Invade wrote:
BTW, for an overview of public opinion (of more extreme fanatics), you guys might find this interesting...

https://www.f1hotornot.com/polls/results/

Naturally, it's hardly the be all and end all. I can't help but sense some delicious Ferrari bias but hey ho.

I know I'm a Bottas fan, but something seems a bit fishy that Bottas is last and in the blue section and the aggregate result (whatever that is) is 0.77. The number and colour is the same as his. But then i guess it is possibly something about how cool or hot the drivers are? Guess many don't find Bottas interesting but the numbers and colour is a total coincidence.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think unsurprisingly you're well underrating Verstappen. your gap between Ocon and Perez baffles me as well. They've been pretty even. I'd put both high up. I don't think Magnussen has suddenly magically become better than Perez. He's just now driving a better car so he can achieve higher results. You put Ocon and Perez in the Haas and they been consistently picking up 5th/6th/7th.

My list would be something like this -

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Daniel Ricciardo
4 – Sebastien Vettel
5 – Valteri Bottas
6 – Max Verstappen
7 – Charles Leclerc
8 - Nico Hulkenberg
9 – Esteban Ocon
10 – Kimi Raikkonen
11 – Sergio Perez
12 – kevin Magnussen
13 – Pierre Gasley
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Romain Grosjean
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Marcus Ericsson
19 – Lance Stroll
20 – Sergey Sirotkin

The interesting thing is when writing that I really didn't feel like anyone deserved to be number one.

I had that same feeling with number 1. Don't think anybody has been perfect. Regarding Verstappen, as I described on the other site, his first 4 races were terrible. Then Monaco too. That is basically a very poor half of the half season. And he hasn't been superb in every race since, so that is why I think above 10th is a little generous. 6th to me is really high indeed. He's in a top car and he's lost him self so many points. Ricciardo has had 1 or 2 more retirements that were not his fault and he's still ahead (not counting Baku). I know that Verstappen has since got back and is generally excellent, but i just can't understand why others are not fully factoring in how bad his start was. If you look at it, he's just behind Bottas in your rankings. Has Bottas had 2 retirements both being heavily his own fault as well as being involved in countless other incidents? No. And he's IMO had at least at many stand out races as Verstappen and he's been up against a tougher team mate. Verstappen almost always will likely have more pace than Bottas, but I don't know how they can be separated by just one place. Has Verstappen been absolutely miles better than Bottas in the last 6 races or something? That is about the only reason I could see for him being this close. Anywhere between where I rated him and just in the top 10, but 6th is just too high. But yes, it's my opinion.

Regarding Perez and Ocon, I think you are maybe right there. It does look very far away from Ocon. I maybe was to influenced by the qualifying runs in the fact that is is 9 - 3 to Ocon. but even in the races that were fair to compare, it is 7 - 2. That is quite a bit. And if you think about it, yes Ocon did throw away a podium in Azerbaijan, but a podium didn't look expected at that moment. But Perez sort of lucked into that with about 4 things going wrong for drivers up ahead of him. Without that, there still will have been 3 retirements and he'll have got 6 points instead of 15. And would be 14/15th in the championship ratehr than 10th. It is strange to think that he got 50% of his poitns in this race alone. His season has not been bad, but I think Ocon has actually looked quite a bit better. Maybe I've been a bit to generous with Ocon though, so maybe move him down a couple of places. Like I said, comments may influence my decisions.

But doing this maybe does make Magnussen look a bit high. I said myself that his overtaking doesn't look the cleanest. So maybe I would move him down a bit. But I still think Magnussen is having a better season than the force India pair, but maybe the car is helping me think that. I'm not sure.


I think you put too much weight behind mistakes and not enough for actual quality performances. I certainly think you could make a case for Verstappen being better in more races than Gasly for example.

On Gasly I think both STR drivers have been underperforming the car to a degree. Ironically I think it's Gasly's strong performance in Bahrain that exposed him. He's always been a specialist there and probably showed where that car should be most of the time. Hartley was no better than normal in Bahrain so it wasn't just that the track suited the car.

Yes, but i feel you are possibly the other way round. I agree with what j man says above in that he was overall very poor in the first 6 races and has made more mistakes than any other driver this season, given that every other race hasn;t been outstanding and something has been very poor in at least 5 of them, it is difficult to rate him higher than 10th. Especially given not ever race since he's recovered has actually been outstanding. He'd been excellent in some, but others were not that special.


10th I wouldn't take much issue with. You rated him behind the likes of Gasly. I mean your welcome to your opinion but I don't think quite that low a rating stands up to scrutiny.

It really depends how good you think the Toro Rosso Honda is. In my opinion they are about level with Sauber, yet Gasly has twice as many points as Leclerc. Now I'd still rate Leclerc much higher for this season based on consistency and that he's made it into Q3 multiple times, but I think Gasly has been pulling off some really unlikely results in that car and is absolutely trouncing Hartley. To hold up Bahrain as an example of what Gasly should be doing and then marking him down for not meeting that standard consistently doesn't seem fair to me; by that logic perhaps Verstappen has underperformed in every race apart from Austria?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:50 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

10th I wouldn't take much issue with. You rated him behind the likes of Gasly. I mean your welcome to your opinion but I don't think quite that low a rating stands up to scrutiny.


I've no doubt that Verstappen's pace is well above Gasly's and that the standard racing pedigree he brings would comfortably oust Gasly were they paired together. He's faster than Ricciardo, never mind Gasly.

Yes, he's quicker and has been vertually all year, but that speed advantage was totally waisted at 5 weekends. What he's done since hasn't made up for that IMO. Maybe it is harsh for me to rate gasly above and by this much, but I thought long and hard about it all and it is difficult to get everything even how i want it. Just 2 say, comeone else on this page has gasly 2 places ahead of Verstappen too ;)


If Verstappen has performed better in more races than Gasly though....

But who has performed worse in rather a lot more? Verstappen. Guess we are not going to agree, but I think there is enough of a reason for voting Verstappen behind, despite me knowing he is much better, and has been since his slump. But I can't ignore those weekends. Gasly has underperformed in as many races maybe, but he hasn't had any clumsy retirements, dreadful races or crashed in qualifying. And I think he's had at least 2 outstanding weekends. And I don't think Verstappen has had that many more than 2 have impressed me a lot.


No, that's my point. Gasly has performed poorer than Verstappen in more races than Verstappen has performed poorer than Gasly. I think when you see "outstanding weekends" from Gasly you are seeing the true performance of the STR. The sort of performance that from Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen, Ricciardo etc you would just consider par of the course.

Look at it this way. If both drivers were in an STR I'm almost certain Verstappen would have more points despite the mistakes. He'd be regularly picking up 6th,7th and 8ths


Last edited by mikeyg123 on Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:53 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
BTW, for an overview of public opinion (of more extreme fanatics), you guys might find this interesting...

https://www.f1hotornot.com/polls/results/

Naturally, it's hardly the be all and end all. I can't help but sense some delicious Ferrari bias but hey ho.

I know I'm a Bottas fan, but something seems a bit fishy that Bottas is last and in the blue section and the aggregate result (whatever that is) is 0.77. The number and colour is the same as his. But then i guess it is possibly something about how cool or hot the drivers are? Guess many don't find Bottas interesting but the numbers and colour is a total coincidence.

I believe that first graph that has Bottas at the bottom was for the Hungarian GP only, which to be fair was not Bottas' finest day. If you look at the cumulative scores for the season at the bottom of the page then Bottas was near the top and about level with Ricciardo before Hungary.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:08 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
1. Fernando Alonso
2. Lewis Hamilton
3. Charles Leclerc
4. Kevin Magnussen
5. Daniel Ricciardo
6. Sebastin Vettel
7. Valteri Bottas
8. Max Verstappen
9. Nico Hülkenberg
10. Pierre Gasly
11. Esteban Ocon
12. Sergio Perez
13. Kimi Räikkönen
14. Carlos Sainz
15. Stoffel Vandoorne
16. Marcus Ericsson
17. Romain Grosjean
18. Brendon Hartley
19. Lance Stroll
20. Sergej Sirotkin

Rated according to the performance this season, not to overall talent (Verstappen and Vettel would of course be higher, then).


If it is to the actual performances this season, then Ericsson beating Leclerc in the first 3 races, looking very similar pace wise in the race in Monaco, almost as good in Austria and clearly looking better when the rain comes (even though Ericsosn has only ever managed to complete 1 full wet race in his whole career) surely would affect Leclerc somewhat if you are not judging by talent? He's dominated Ericsson in 5 races. But has basically been beaten overall in 5 weekends too, although often not by much. So if you rate according to the performance this season, surely Leclerc's first 3 races and especially Germany have to go against him a little? In China, he nearly beached the car and finished last and 20 seconds behind Ericsson. The weekend before, Ericsson managed a decent points finish while Leclerc was 14th, nearly 20 seconds behind. Then more recently in Germany, Leclerc messed up badly. Even if it wasn't his fault he was on the wrong tyres at one stage, it was his fault that when he was back on the correct tyres, he spun twice and eventually lost a full minute behind Vandoorne, who was already going much slower than many others. And Ericsson meanwhile was in the points. Over a minute and 15 seconds ahead at the end of the race! A bigger margin than Leclerc ever beat Ericsson by a long way. Though i should factor in that Ericsosn did retire in Britain, which is worse still.

Yes, I'm being incredibly harsh on Leclerc and trying to point out the negatives, but these points are all pretty true i think. If you are rating according to the performance this season, then surely these moments should be factored in. And given a driver like Ericsson (who I agree he's around 16th) has been beating him by quite some margin on these few occasions, that surely would put him lower than you've put him if basing things on the description you said?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:15 pm 
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j man wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
BTW, for an overview of public opinion (of more extreme fanatics), you guys might find this interesting...

https://www.f1hotornot.com/polls/results/

Naturally, it's hardly the be all and end all. I can't help but sense some delicious Ferrari bias but hey ho.

I know I'm a Bottas fan, but something seems a bit fishy that Bottas is last and in the blue section and the aggregate result (whatever that is) is 0.77. The number and colour is the same as his. But then i guess it is possibly something about how cool or hot the drivers are? Guess many don't find Bottas interesting but the numbers and colour is a total coincidence.

I believe that first graph that has Bottas at the bottom was for the Hungarian GP only, which to be fair was not Bottas' finest day. If you look at the cumulative scores for the season at the bottom of the page then Bottas was near the top and about level with Ricciardo before Hungary.

Ah, i think the page got me confused there. No it wasn't Bottas's finest day. But his qualifying was pretty impressive and most of his race was fine too. The first incident was the cause of him getting back and involved with Ricciardo, and both equally could have been better there according to the stewards. However, the one with Ricciardo was his fault down to the choice he made. SO I blame him there. But the fact is, he will have finished 4th anyway. He finished 5th and had a bit of a crash (yes was his fault 2nd time), but was he the worst out there? No. But yes, a very different site in terms of the way things are looking.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:21 am 
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Okay, here's my best stab at it. I'm cribbing Invade's system of separating drivers into broad groups. I'm trying to keep the whole season in mind, but inevitably the greater weight is towards the recent form of these drivers. If I'd been doing this right after Monaco, it would look a lot different.

-------------------------------------------------------

The Untouchable
1 – Fernando Alonso
2 - Lewis Hamilton

The Fast and the Dominant
3 – Esteban Ocon
4 – Charles Leclerc

The Fast but Flawed
5 – Daniel Ricciardo
6 – Sebastian Vettel
7 – Nico Hulkenberg
8 – Max Verstappen

The Solid but Unspectacular
9 – Sergio Perez
10 – Valtteri Bottas
11 – Pierre Gasly
12 – Kevin Magnussen
13 – Stoffel Vandoorne
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Kimi Raikkonen
16 – Marcus Ericsson

The Solidly Unspectacular
17 – Romain Grosjean
18 – Lance Stroll
19 – Sergey Sirotkin
20 – Brendon Hartley

-------------------------------------------------------

Wow, okay. There were definitely some surprises in there when I laid it out, but that's how my gut feeling ran. It looks a bit weird, with Ocon and Leclerc being that high up, but I really do feel that the immediate chasing pack with Vettel, Ricciardo and Max in it have all been marred by too many costly mistakes and/or general off-the-pace moments to unseat either of them. I think Ocon is standing out way more than anyone realizes due to the Force India being slower than we're used to, and Leclerc of course needs no explanation. Only a somewhat better wet weather performance is keeping him away from those at the very top in my esteem.

So there it is. It's almost certainly not completely correct, but it is reflective of my feeling over the first twelve races.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:04 am 
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Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I myself in the past have often agreed with the rankings on F1 Fanatic, now known as Racefans. I do agree with a lot again this year, but some IMO are well off.

Rankings 1 - 5: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/17/201 ... nt-3840630
Rankings 6 - 12: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/15/201 ... rt-2-12-6/
Rankings 13 - 20: https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/13/201 ... t-1-20-13/

The main ones I disagree with (ones I would move up or down at least 3 places) are Ericsson in 19th, Raikonnen in 14th, Magnussen in 11th and Verstappen in 6th (this one really baffles me).

These are my rankings:

1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Sebastian Vettel
4 – Valterri Bottas
5 – Daniel Ricciardo
6 – Charles Leclerc
7 – Esteban Ocon
8 – Kevin Magnussen
9 – Nico Hulkenberg
10 – Pierre Gasly
11 – Kimi Raikonnen
12 – Max Verstappen
13 – Sergio Perez
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne
16 – Marcus Ericsson
17 – Brendon Hartley
18 – Lance Stroll
19 – Sergey Sirotkin
20 – Romain Grosjean


I did wonder about copying and pasting my comment description from the racefans page (the first link) onto this page, but I think if people are interested in my explanation for my rankings, then can just find it in the comments on that page. I'm called the same name (the part in brackets on the page anyway) as on this forum. I made a mistake with the ranking on that page though as i wrote it a few days a go in a document without updating the list when I changed my mind. I just had wrote about it without changing the list. It is correct here and i commented to correct myself on racefans.


What are other people's views. I know we are going to get some very different ones. But I think the main 2 that stand out on the rankings on race fans is how harshly Kimi ahs been rated and how high Verstappen has been. But at least they do have a rough description for each.



I can say that according to the raw scores of my spreadsheets that the order of the drivers of the top 6 cars is currently as follows:

1. Hamilton
gap
2. Ricciardo
gap
3. Vettel
gap
4. Bottas
5. Raikkonen
6. Verstappen

However, Verstappen crippled himself in my system through extremely poor early season performance. Since, he's already almost done enough to overtake both Bottas and Raikkonen - he's barely behind.

I'll try a top 20...

Excellent
1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso

Quite Excellent
3 – Daniel Ricciardo
4 – Sebastian Vettel
5 – Nico Hulkenberg

Very Good
6 – Valtteri Bottas
7 – Kimi Raikkonen
8 – Max Verstappen
9 – Kevin Magnussen
10 – Esteban Ocon
11 – Charles Leclerc

Good
12 – Sergio Perez
13 – Carlos Sainz
14 – Pierre Gasly

Passable
15 – Stoffel Vandoorne

Not quite cutting it
16 – Marcus Ericsson
17 – Brendon Hartley

Poor
18 – Romain Grosjean
19 – Lance Stroll
20 – Sergey Sirotkin

Subject to change.


I agree!!..

Vettel has made 2 serious errors this year as Hamiton has had none, only DNF's


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:21 am 
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j man wrote:
It really depends how good you think the Toro Rosso Honda is. In my opinion they are about level with Sauber, yet Gasly has twice as many points as Leclerc. Now I'd still rate Leclerc much higher for this season based on consistency and that he's made it into Q3 multiple times, but I think Gasly has been pulling off some really unlikely results in that car and is absolutely trouncing Hartley. To hold up Bahrain as an example of what Gasly should be doing and then marking him down for not meeting that standard consistently doesn't seem fair to me; by that logic perhaps Verstappen has underperformed in every race apart from Austria?


I agree it's not fair because he somewhat exposed himself. But look at it logically. Gasly is always very good in Bahrain. Hartley put in his regular performance in Bahrain. That doesn't suggest the car was anything special round there which means that it should usually be capable of that kind of performance. Compare his season to someone like Hulkenbergs who has consistently put his car in that 7-10th range. Based on the Bahrain performance I see no reason why a very high performing driver couldn't do that in the STR.

Verstappen in Austria was a bit different. 1st wasn't where the car was at. He won because Vettel made a mess of the start, Bottas retired and Mercedes messed up on Hamilton's strategy. Where as in Bahrain Gasly ran best of the rest the whole race.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:30 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
It really depends how good you think the Toro Rosso Honda is. In my opinion they are about level with Sauber, yet Gasly has twice as many points as Leclerc. Now I'd still rate Leclerc much higher for this season based on consistency and that he's made it into Q3 multiple times, but I think Gasly has been pulling off some really unlikely results in that car and is absolutely trouncing Hartley. To hold up Bahrain as an example of what Gasly should be doing and then marking him down for not meeting that standard consistently doesn't seem fair to me; by that logic perhaps Verstappen has underperformed in every race apart from Austria?


I agree it's not fair because he somewhat exposed himself. But look at it logically. Gasly is always very good in Bahrain. Hartley put in his regular performance in Bahrain. That doesn't suggest the car was anything special round there which means that it should usually be capable of that kind of performance. Compare his season to someone like Hulkenbergs who has consistently put his car in that 7-10th range. Based on the Bahrain performance I see no reason why a very high performing driver couldn't do that in the STR.

Verstappen in Austria was a bit different. 1st wasn't where the car was at. He won because Vettel made a mess of the start, Bottas retired and Mercedes messed up on Hamilton's strategy. Where as in Bahrain Gasly ran best of the rest the whole race.

So you believe that the Toro Rosso is best of the rest? As good as the Renault and the Haas? I think this is where our opinions differ.

I can't explain why Gasly was so fast in Bahrain, even the team were surprised and put it down to an aero upgrade performing way better than it was supposed to. I guess sometimes a team can nail the car setup and get more from the temperamental Pirelli tyres than anyone else, the most extreme example being Maldonado's bizarre win in Spain. Such events are more likely in the early races as teams are still learning about the tyres and how best to set their cars up.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/toro ... 21/?nrt=54

I think the only other race where Toro Rosso showed this sort of pace was at Hungary which, surprise surprise, is a less power-sensitive circuit than the others. In my opinion it's more likely that Bahrain was a one-off where everything fell into place and that Gasly has shown the car's true performance everywhere else. If the Toro Rosso really is as good as Haas and Renault, then Hartley must be one of the worst drivers we've seen for decades.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:39 am 
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j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
It really depends how good you think the Toro Rosso Honda is. In my opinion they are about level with Sauber, yet Gasly has twice as many points as Leclerc. Now I'd still rate Leclerc much higher for this season based on consistency and that he's made it into Q3 multiple times, but I think Gasly has been pulling off some really unlikely results in that car and is absolutely trouncing Hartley. To hold up Bahrain as an example of what Gasly should be doing and then marking him down for not meeting that standard consistently doesn't seem fair to me; by that logic perhaps Verstappen has underperformed in every race apart from Austria?


I agree it's not fair because he somewhat exposed himself. But look at it logically. Gasly is always very good in Bahrain. Hartley put in his regular performance in Bahrain. That doesn't suggest the car was anything special round there which means that it should usually be capable of that kind of performance. Compare his season to someone like Hulkenbergs who has consistently put his car in that 7-10th range. Based on the Bahrain performance I see no reason why a very high performing driver couldn't do that in the STR.

Verstappen in Austria was a bit different. 1st wasn't where the car was at. He won because Vettel made a mess of the start, Bottas retired and Mercedes messed up on Hamilton's strategy. Where as in Bahrain Gasly ran best of the rest the whole race.

So you believe that the Toro Rosso is best of the rest? As good as the Renault and the Haas? I think this is where our opinions differ.

I can't explain why Gasly was so fast in Bahrain, even the team were surprised and put it down to an aero upgrade performing way better than it was supposed to. I guess sometimes a team can nail the car setup and get more from the temperamental Pirelli tyres than anyone else, the most extreme example being Maldonado's bizarre win in Spain. Such events are more likely in the early races as teams are still learning about the tyres and how best to set their cars up.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/toro ... 21/?nrt=54

I think the only other race where Toro Rosso showed this sort of pace was at Hungary which, surprise surprise, is a less power-sensitive circuit than the others. In my opinion it's more likely that Bahrain was a one-off where everything fell into place and that Gasly has shown the car's true performance everywhere else. If the Toro Rosso really is as good as Haas and Renault, then Hartley must be one of the worst drivers we've seen for decades.


Even though Hartley didn't put it anything other than his usual performance? If the STR was especially good around Bahrain you'd expect Hartley to do better than normal wouldn't you?

I think that the midfield battle is close. Close enough that one driver performing at tier 1 level is going to make a big difference in terms of finishing positions. I think Haas have been clearly 4th best but don't have as good a drivers as Renault who I would put 5th with STR very close. Close enough that if you put a top driver in it you would see it beating the Renault's and competing with the Haas. We can see this evidenced in a way buy Mclaren who I thin started the season as the 6th best team but have moved back to being around 9th best ahead of only Williams on pace but they do have a tier 1 driver who is well above where he should be in the championship.

I guess in a way it's not fair to compare Gasly to a tier one driver but I think Hulkenberg for example would be achieving similar results in an STR that he is doing for Renault. That would put Harltley aroud Palmer level which is probably not unrealistic.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:41 am 
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This ratings just shows one thing most F1 fans have short memories, I can see so many slating Vettel for his mistake because he was upfront, and praising Alonso, did people forget in France he spun whilst being overtaken by Vettel on his own and he needed new tyres had he been running up front that would have been costly and that's just one example, but because it's Alonso wherever the car finishes its due to him.

But I see it's the normal rose tinted way of looking at Alonso and comparing him to Stoffel who has done nothing of note in F1, someone even said Stoffel is showing the real speed of the car though Alonso gets the upgraded parts first.

Delusions of grandeur does not begin to describe it.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
This ratings just shows one thing most F1 fans have short memories, I can see so many slating Vettel for his mistake because he was upfront, and praising Alonso, did people forget in France he spun whilst being overtaken by Vettel on his own and he needed new tyres had he been running up front that would have been costly and that's just one example, but because it's Alonso wherever the car finishes its due to him.

But I see it's the normal rose tinted way of looking at Alonso and comparing him to Stoffel who has done nothing of note in F1, someone even said Stoffel is showing the real speed of the car though Alonso gets the upgraded parts first.

Delusions of grandeur does not begin to describe it.


Are there more examples of that kind of error?

Bad cars are a bit harder to drive so that few errors compared to his rivals is likely why he's highly placed considering he's surrounded by cars all the time so the potential for multiple incidents is there. I'd assume they have taken France, his only poor showing, into account which is why he's generally 2nd and not 1st as Lewis has only a couple of meh drives (Canada and China) rather than an out and out bad one with a big mistake in it like France for Alonso.

It's not Alonso's problem Seb dropped it in Germany, threw away a podium in Baku and had a brain fade in France himself. Too many big errors to be ahead of either Alonso or Lewis, he's more comparable to Max's season so far for mixing mistakes with great pace at times.

Misplaced angst here I think.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
This ratings just shows one thing most F1 fans have short memories, I can see so many slating Vettel for his mistake because he was upfront, and praising Alonso, did people forget in France he spun whilst being overtaken by Vettel on his own and he needed new tyres had he been running up front that would have been costly and that's just one example, but because it's Alonso wherever the car finishes its due to him.

But I see it's the normal rose tinted way of looking at Alonso and comparing him to Stoffel who has done nothing of note in F1, someone even said Stoffel is showing the real speed of the car though Alonso gets the upgraded parts first.

Delusions of grandeur does not begin to describe it.


Average gap between Alonso and Vettel is about 3 places. People are hardly saying they're in different leagues. It's difficult to place someone that's blown several wins much higher than 4th or 5th.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:49 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
This ratings just shows one thing most F1 fans have short memories, I can see so many slating Vettel for his mistake because he was upfront, and praising Alonso, did people forget in France he spun whilst being overtaken by Vettel on his own and he needed new tyres had he been running up front that would have been costly and that's just one example, but because it's Alonso wherever the car finishes its due to him.

But I see it's the normal rose tinted way of looking at Alonso and comparing him to Stoffel who has done nothing of note in F1, someone even said Stoffel is showing the real speed of the car though Alonso gets the upgraded parts first.

Delusions of grandeur does not begin to describe it.


Are there more examples of that kind of error?

Bad cars are a bit harder to drive so that few errors compared to his rivals is likely why he's highly placed considering he's surrounded by cars all the time so the potential for multiple incidents is there. I'd assume they have taken France, his only poor showing, into account which is why he's generally 2nd and not 1st as Lewis has only a couple of meh drives (Canada and China) rather than an out and out bad one with a big mistake in it like France for Alonso.

It's not Alonso's problem Seb dropped it in Germany, threw away a podium in Baku and had a brain fade in France himself. Too many big errors to be ahead of either Alonso or Lewis, he's more comparable to Max's season so far for mixing mistakes with great pace at times.

Misplaced angst here I think.


There are more of them out there a quick check will get you informed and angst where? just stating facts also where does the bad car come into spinning whilst been overtaken?

Not excusing Vettel's mistakes just highlighting it being ignored for Alonso and also comparing him with Stoffel but guess that's where his career is now.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:57 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
This ratings just shows one thing most F1 fans have short memories, I can see so many slating Vettel for his mistake because he was upfront, and praising Alonso, did people forget in France he spun whilst being overtaken by Vettel on his own and he needed new tyres had he been running up front that would have been costly and that's just one example, but because it's Alonso wherever the car finishes its due to him.

But I see it's the normal rose tinted way of looking at Alonso and comparing him to Stoffel who has done nothing of note in F1, someone even said Stoffel is showing the real speed of the car though Alonso gets the upgraded parts first.

Delusions of grandeur does not begin to describe it.


Average gap between Alonso and Vettel is about 3 places. People are hardly saying they're in different leagues. It's difficult to place someone that's blown several wins much higher than 4th or 5th.


Outside of Germany what other win was blown?

The same someone who has overtaken his rival on track? or the same person who has turned up and put in 100% every weekend and not have to be cajoled in the race to keep going?

Not arguing for Vettel here just pointing out the hypocrisy of some arguments.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:10 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
This ratings just shows one thing most F1 fans have short memories, I can see so many slating Vettel for his mistake because he was upfront, and praising Alonso, did people forget in France he spun whilst being overtaken by Vettel on his own and he needed new tyres had he been running up front that would have been costly and that's just one example, but because it's Alonso wherever the car finishes its due to him.

But I see it's the normal rose tinted way of looking at Alonso and comparing him to Stoffel who has done nothing of note in F1, someone even said Stoffel is showing the real speed of the car though Alonso gets the upgraded parts first.

Delusions of grandeur does not begin to describe it.


Are there more examples of that kind of error?

Bad cars are a bit harder to drive so that few errors compared to his rivals is likely why he's highly placed considering he's surrounded by cars all the time so the potential for multiple incidents is there. I'd assume they have taken France, his only poor showing, into account which is why he's generally 2nd and not 1st as Lewis has only a couple of meh drives (Canada and China) rather than an out and out bad one with a big mistake in it like France for Alonso.

It's not Alonso's problem Seb dropped it in Germany, threw away a podium in Baku and had a brain fade in France himself. Too many big errors to be ahead of either Alonso or Lewis, he's more comparable to Max's season so far for mixing mistakes with great pace at times.

Misplaced angst here I think.


There are more of them out there a quick check will get you informed and angst where? just stating facts also where does the bad car come into spinning whilst been overtaken?

Not excusing Vettel's mistakes just highlighting it being ignored for Alonso and also comparing him with Stoffel but guess that's where his career is now.


Nah you're the one making the claim. Examples? Bad cars have less d/f, poorer balance and are harder to drive so more mistakes would be expected.

Like I said, they didn't ignore at least France or he'd have topped the list. Maybe there just isn't any more big mistakes to ignore. You don't seem able to point to another off the top of your head. Comparing with Stoffel is tricky if he's losing every now and again as we don't know where Stoffel stands so losing to him would leave questions about Alonso's own form. While he's pitching a shut out though there's not much to consider.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:32 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
This ratings just shows one thing most F1 fans have short memories, I can see so many slating Vettel for his mistake because he was upfront, and praising Alonso, did people forget in France he spun whilst being overtaken by Vettel on his own and he needed new tyres had he been running up front that would have been costly and that's just one example, but because it's Alonso wherever the car finishes its due to him.

But I see it's the normal rose tinted way of looking at Alonso and comparing him to Stoffel who has done nothing of note in F1, someone even said Stoffel is showing the real speed of the car though Alonso gets the upgraded parts first.

Delusions of grandeur does not begin to describe it.


Average gap between Alonso and Vettel is about 3 places. People are hardly saying they're in different leagues. It's difficult to place someone that's blown several wins much higher than 4th or 5th.

Not commenting on the rankings but the only win that was blown to my recollection was Germany. What others are you thinking of?

edit: unless you're thinking of Baku, I suppose? I wouldn't call that a thrown win but can see the argument for it


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:18 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
This ratings just shows one thing most F1 fans have short memories, I can see so many slating Vettel for his mistake because he was upfront, and praising Alonso, did people forget in France he spun whilst being overtaken by Vettel on his own and he needed new tyres had he been running up front that would have been costly and that's just one example, but because it's Alonso wherever the car finishes its due to him.

But I see it's the normal rose tinted way of looking at Alonso and comparing him to Stoffel who has done nothing of note in F1, someone even said Stoffel is showing the real speed of the car though Alonso gets the upgraded parts first.

Delusions of grandeur does not begin to describe it.


Average gap between Alonso and Vettel is about 3 places. People are hardly saying they're in different leagues. It's difficult to place someone that's blown several wins much higher than 4th or 5th.

Not commenting on the rankings but the only win that was blown to my recollection was Germany. What others are you thinking of?

edit: unless you're thinking of Baku, I suppose? I wouldn't call that a thrown win but can see the argument for it


Baku definitely.

I guess I should have phrased it blown several good chances to win.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:31 pm 
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I'm not going through a full Top 20 but Magnussen would be in my Top 3 - he's surely ending Grosjean's F1 career. Probably with Alonso and either Ricciardo/Hamilton

Ricciardo was my outright number one until Max stopped crashing. The pace difference between the two ever since has been stark

If I was to fill out my full Top 10 I'd include Ocon, Hulk, Vettel, Leclerc, Perez, Bottas - not really in any particular order but probably close to how I've listed them. I can't get over Max's abysmal start to the year to include him in my top half of the grid at this point of the season

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Quick gut feeling run-down based on full season performance thus far and trying to take into account the relative performance of the cars, by tiers:

Good
1. Lewis Hamilton
2. Fernando Alonso
3. Daniel Ricciardo
4. Esteban Ocon
5. Charles Leclerc

Solid
6. Nico Hulkenberg
7. Sebastian Vettel
8. Sergio Perez
9. Kevin Magnussen
10. Pierre Gasly
11. Kimi Raikkonen
12. Max Verstappen
13. Valtteri Bottas
14. Stoffel Vandoorne
15. Carlos Sainz

Poor
16. Marcus Ericsson
17. Lance Stroll
18. Romain Grosjean
19. Sergey Sirtokin
20. Brendon Hartley

I had four categories to begin with, but the top two blurred together so much I combined them.

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Top Three: 8 wins, 24 podiums | 2016: 9th [6th] | 2017: 16th [6th] | 2018: 5th [8th]
Pick 10: 1 win, 7 podiums | 2016: 22nd | 2017: 21st | 2018: 9th
Group Pick'em: 2 wins, 11 podiums | 2016: 14th | 2017: 10th | 2018: 10th


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:45 am 
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1 - Lewis Hamilton
Not his best season, but it's hard to argue that anyone else has been better.

2 – Daniel Ricciardo
Reliability has hurt badly this year. Stellar performances in China and Monaco remind us how good his racecraft and tyre management is.

3 – Sebastien Vettel
A great start to the season but some big mistakes have hurt.

4 – Charles Leclerc
Driving very well for a rookie. To be considered for a Ferrari seat in the first half of his first season says it all.

5 – Max Verstappen
Channelled Crash Bandicoot in the first 6 races, but has recovered very well. Out-qualifying a teammate of the calibre of Daniel Ricciardo consistently shows his raw pace is probably the best in the sport.

6 – Fernando Alonso
Carrying the terrible McLaren again. His consistency is unbelievable.

7 – Pierre Gasly
Like Leclerc, Gasly has driven well above the expected performance of a Toro Rosso Honda on multiple occasions. 4th at Bahrain a big statement. Makes Hartley look worse than he is.

8 – Kimi Raikkonen
A fairly good season and sometimes outpacing Vettel shows he still is a strong number 2. Strategy calls haven't helped his season (as usual).

9 - Nico Hulkenberg
Flying under the radar, but very consistent. Sainz is no slouch so to be consistently ahead is testament to his ability. The Renault would look much worse without him.

10 – Valtteri Bottas
Not a stellar season so far, but not terrible.

11 – Carlos Sainz
The Renault has given Sainz a more competitive platform and he is showing consistency, but also consistently being slower than Hulkenberg.

12 – Esteban Ocon
Much hyped, but not really leaving Perez for dead. A middle-of-the-road performance so far.

13 – Sergio Perez
Like Ocon, not setting the world on fire but probably driving to where the Force India should be.

14 – Marcus Ericsson
Certainly in Leclerc's shadow, so difficult to assess. Definitely not the worst driver in the field, but not deserving of a high placing.

15 – Kevin Magnussen
Many would rate him higher due to the gap to Grosjean, but I think Grosjean has been particularly bad in 2018. Magnussen still isn't putting the Haas where it should be in my opinion.

16 – Stoffel Vandoorne
A mystery chassis issue with the McLaren has hurt his performances, but it's not been a good season. Thoroughly schooled by Alonso, whose retirement may be the only reason Stoffel keeps his seat.

17 – Brendon Hartley
Probably made to look worse by Gasly's good performances. Hasn't had a great year and isn't looking like having a long F1 career.


18 – Romain Grosjean
Lucky not to be at the bottom of the list. What a poor year. Crashing behind the safety car? He's no rookie so that's a very average mistake. I don't think he deserves the seat at Haas. Leclerc should have it.

19 – Lance Stroll
The Williams is bad, but $troll certainly isn't helping. He's a little better than Sirotkin but that's not saying much.

20 – Sergey Sirotkin
Not an F1 driver. The Williams is better than him and that's damning.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:56 am 
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1 - Lewis Hamilton
2 – Fernando Alonso
3 – Sebastian Vettel
4 – Valterri Bottas
5 – Charles Leclerc
6 – Pierre Gasly
7 – Daniel Ricciardo
8 – Kevin Magnussen
9 – Nico Hulkenberg
10 – Max Verstappen
11 – Esteban Ocon
12 – Kimi Raikonnen
13 – Sergio Perez
14 – Carlos Sainz
15 – Marcus Ericsson
16 – Sergey Sirotkin
17 – Stoffel Vandoorne
18 – Lance Stroll
19 – Brendon Hartley
20 – Romain Grosjean

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