planetf1.com

It is currently Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:20 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Alonso's legacy in F1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:47 pm
Posts: 2988
So, Fernando Alonso is retiring from F1 at the end of the 2018 season. 32 wins, 22 poles, 97 appearances on the podium and, of course, a two-time F1 Champion. But there were also very near misses in 2007, 2010 and 2012. There is a perception that he has made bad career choices and has wasted the last three years of his F1 career. And then there is the controversy, from all that happened in 2007 to Crashgate, burnt bridges that have almost lead to the situation he's in, outbursts on team radio (admittedly hilarious) and other such incidents. I think few would debate that he's been one of the best of his generation, although where exactly he sits amongst the guys he's competed against is another matter entirely.

The question I have is simple: how will his F1 career be remembered?

_________________
Pick 10 | 1st x1, 2nd x3, 3rd x7
2018: 10th | 2017: 6th | 2016: 8th | 2015: 2nd | 2014: 15th | 2013: 17th | 2012: 11th


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 2536
Location: England
As a good one, but not a great one, his numbers wont stack up to the very best when the physical memory of his exploits are lost to the mists of time, which probably has a lot to do with his current goal of chasing the Triple Crown, cementing his status in legend in another fashion. Those of us lucky enough to have seen him drive in the flesh will know just how fantastic he was, but as you mention, some poor career decisions and some pretty poor personal choices will ultimately do for his ultimate standing in the pantheon of F1 greats.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2018: {Rookie Year}
Current positon: 3rd | 2 Podiums | 1 Win


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 4828
One of the best of all time. 2 WDC, near 100 podiums and 6th all time in the wins column without sitting in a dominant car. Far too many bad cars and unlucky that his career had 3 different dominant car periods. Never lost a h2h over a season, beat Schumacher heads up in one of the best WDC years in history, has another atg season in 2012. Fell just shy of 3 other titles without the best car, by 1pt,3pts and 5pts.

One of the most consistent drivers I've ever seen with no on track weaknesses. Most talented out and out driver I've seen, any type of car or car issue and he can drive around it and be competitive.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:52 am
Posts: 163
Unfortunately for Alonso he won't be remembered fondly by all within the F1 community - burnt too many bridges.

However, as with other double world champions, he will be remembered more fashionably like Emerson Fittipaldi and Graham Hill. So his legacy is still strong but ultimately not as strong as it could've been. We all know this is down to his behaviour outside of the car.

He rarely had any weaknesses on track but in my humble opinion, I don't think he was ever good at developing a car. He's one of those, stick them in the car and it'll go faster but only by his speed behind the wheel and not by development with his engineers. Like I say, just my opinion.

Still...a hell of a driver who was one of the best in the past 2 generations.

Note: Hamilton and Schummy are the other 2 who I'd put as "one of the best" too.

_________________
F1 Fan: 26 years and counting...
Grand Prixs Attended:
British x3 * Hungary * Italy * USA * Spain * Belgium


Grand Prixs on bucket list...
Canada * Mexico * Japan * Germany *


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:05 pm
Posts: 236
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
Great driver in his prime, the stats are beyond dispute.

But not the best ambassador for the sport... always egotistically biting the hand that fed him... so many hands...

_________________
Short-time member, Life-Long Fan from 1965 -- More than 550 Grand Prix recorded since 1982 (all but 3), and counting...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:37 pm
Posts: 675
Talking about his WDCs would be as misguided as it is regarding Stirling Moss or Gilles Villeneuve.

True F1 and racing fans would certainly prefer to point to his three near misses in not the best car. Or to the fact that his two WDCs were not in a dominant car either (a very good car with very strong competition from a rival constructor, McLaren in 2005 and Ferrari in 2006, with two other WDCs driving them)

The fact that he has achieved what he has achieved never having under him a dominant car of the kind that Mercedes has been in the last few years, or Red Bull was in the four Vettel's championships, will remain in the sports' collective memory as probably one of its best performances ever by a racer. If not the best.

His three near misses could have painted a different gloss over his career had they gone the other way. Probably changed his career decisions as well, allowing him even more chances to add, and some of his 'difficult person' fame could have been diluted. Somehow, though, he's become more of a raw character in a time of polished personalities, perhaps for the better: In spite of his supposed on track antics, he has been quite a gentleman on it, avoiding contact with other colleagues. Here he is also alone in his time.

Hopefully it makes sense for him to be back in a couple of years. It would be extremely interesting.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9898
Location: Travelling around the world
He'll be remembered as one of the greatest of all time. But he will always carry that asterisk of possibly the driver with the worst timing in the history of the sport, which led to a waste of prime years in uncompetitive machinery. His talent will never be in question and I don't think it'll be strange to see his name up there beside other great drivers with "only" a couple of titles or less - Clark, Ascari, Moss, etc.

It's the near misses and the locking himself out of top tier teams that mean I don't expect to see his name in the Prost, Senna, Schumacher pantheon of greats. And I don't think his temperament and personality flaws will dent his legacy, much like Senna and Schumacher before him

2012 will always go down as one of the greatest season performances in modern Formula 1. And I expect the rose-tinted view of that season to only grow over time. They'll be writing mythological pieces about it in motorsport publications in 20 years' time

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Last edited by mcdo on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2269
Regardless of how I’ve criticized him in the past, he was a very special driver. One of a kind. In his prime (2012), he honestly had the best racecraft I’ve ever seen.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:38 am
Posts: 198
It definitely won't be the same without him and it seems like the end of an era. Having said that, it sounds like it's a sabbatical to go away and do other things with the hope that he can come back if Mclaren manage to return to the front of the grid. I was always impressed that he managed to extract every last drop of performance from every car he drove. He should have won two more championships in 2010 and 2012.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:20 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7359
It will be interesting to see how he is remembered by the majority given his 'low' title count compared to his contemporaries but for me he's been the best driver post-Schumacher and I don't think Hamilton or Vettel will change that before they retire.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 2877
Location: UK
It's safe to say that my opinion of Alonso over the years has fluctuated more than Heinz-Harald Frentzen's driving ability. In my ignorance I paid him little heed in his debut year; he was the latest mediocre young talent put into a backmarker team to make up the numbers and I remember scoffing at an F1 Racing article that declared him a future champion. I became a fan in his early Renault years as he emerged as such an exciting young talent, scoring multiple podiums, and even a pole and race win in what was largely a midfield car. Not to mention for metaphorically sticking two fingers up at the biased British press after they ridiculed Renault's decision to replace their beloved Jenson Button with this unknown Spaniard. In his championship years though we started to see the ugly side of Alonso's personality and my opinion started to drop: the childish outbursts, the inflated sense of self-importance and the need to play the perpetual victim (remember when he accused his Renault team of not backing his title challenge?). Then came 2007 (which I'm sure will be discussed at length in this thread), which as far as I'm concerned all originated from Alonso's immense ego refusing to accept that a newcomer to the sport was getting the better of him. My opinion hit rock-bottom in 2009 when the race fixing scandal broke. I'm sure people will argue due to the lack of direct proof but I firmly believe that the one other person who knew of the plot, who testified against the other perpetrators in exchange for anonymity and immunity, must have been Alonso. 2010 did little to raise my opinion, we saw more of the childish outbursts and victim playing that plagued his Renault years.

In spite of all of that I've always respected Alonso immensely as a driver, and in 2012 that started to outweigh everything else. I love an underdog, and as far as I'm concerned Alonso was driving the fourth best car that year and I found myself rooting for him once it became apparent that McLaren's incessant blundering had ruled Hamilton out of contention. Alonso in 2012 remains the finest season performance I have ever seen and it's a real shame he didn't get a title from his efforts that year. Sadly it was all downhill from there and the rest of his career became a story of under-achievement because of sub-par machinery. The radio outbursts that I had previously seen as the childish rantings of someone trying to be the victim became the understandable frustrations of a man who had been sold a lie. I felt sorry for him more than anything, and saddened that such a great talent was wasting away the final years of his career in midfield mediocrity. He deserved better.

In spite of my opinion of Alonso as a personality, I've always rated him as the best driver in the field ever since he emerged from Schumacher's shadow in 2005 and as far as I'm concerned his name belongs up there with the likes of Schumacher, Clark, Fangio etc as those who stood head and shoulders above the rest of their generation. Sadly though I feel the record books will not be kind to him and in 30 years time people will look at the future equivalent of Wikipedia and declare Vettel and Hamilton to be the best drivers of this era.

All the best to Fernando in whatever he does next. I'll be supporting him :thumbup:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9898
Location: Travelling around the world
j man wrote:
It's safe to say that my opinion of Alonso over the years has fluctuated more than Heinz-Harald Frentzen's driving ability.

Another one of my favourites. I sure know how to pick 'em :-((

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14053
I think time will treat Alonso kindly. It's kind of odd but because he's been a non entity at the front of so long he is almost already viewed as an ex F1 driver in a way.

For me he and Schumacher stand apart in the time I've been watching F1 (Since the early 90s).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:17 pm
Posts: 129
Alonso will serve as a reminder of how much of this sport is about the car you drive rather than the skills of the driver.

As such, make no moves to alienate the top teams in the sport, otherwise even one of the best will be regulated to the best of the rest series.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 251
Statistically, I suppose Alonso’s career will ultimately look like one of under achievement.

But then, I remind myself that Nelson Piquet won far more races and titles than Gilles Villeneuve and Ronnie Peterson combined. And I smile a little at how impoverished an outlook it is to look at the stats alone.

I have watched the sport since 1984. I have never seen a greater season than Alonso’s 2012, and that includes Senna’s ‘93.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:03 pm
Posts: 1307
Good record, great driver.

_________________
===\ō͡≡\ō͡≡o˞̶ ===\ō͡≡\ō͡≡o˞̶ ===\ō͡≡\ō͡≡o˞̶ ===\ō͡≡\ō͡≡o˞̶ ===\ō͡≡\ō͡≡o˞̶===


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5755
Location: Michigan, USA
His legacy is always going to ultimately stand as a 'what could have been' question. I think there are very few who would question that his achievements do not match his ability on track, whatever you might think of him off track.

For me, Alonso has been my favorite driver since 2014, so I suppose I was a little late to the party with regards to the Alonso faithful. But long before I was a fan of his I regarded him as the best driver on the grid. F1 is less without him, that much is clear to me.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 12:46 pm
Posts: 703
Location: McKinney, TX
It's a damn shame this happened. It really annoys me of the state of F1, with three teams competing, and then there is everyone else. McLaren in particular.

_________________
I'd rather die than be overtaken.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 4492
He was in the middle of way to many scandals and burned many bridges to the point that no one wanted him. Not a good record as far as I am concerned. His driving achievements stand good, but they are not flattering his sheer talent which he undeniably had plenty of.

_________________
The end is near


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 748
One day, somebody will write about the curious case of Fernando Alonso where trouncing your teammate carries more weight than winning real championships.

He is a great driver, and I feel sorry for his many fans but I believe that his reputation far outweighs his actual talent when you have people placing him above the two guys(Hamilton and Vettel) that have won 8 of the last 10 driver championships since 2008. It says a lot about actual F1 fans who prefer to work on fantasy rather than facing reality.
F1 is a team sport, and if you don't pull in the same direction or if you lack the humility and the gratefulness you will not achieve the maximum.

Regarding teammates battles, Alonso is the kind of guy who will beat you and tear you apart when you are down (UFC style) rather that giving you his hand to help you stand up to play round 2. He is this fierce and this is the main reason his (mentally weak) teammates fall apart despite their talent.

It will feel strange for me even if I am not his biggest fan to not see him again, but at least the abuse the actual champions Hamilton and Vettel receive will diminish and we will talk about real racing and not hypothetical ones.

I wish him the best for the future.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5755
Location: Michigan, USA
Pullrod wrote:
F1 is a team sport, and if you don't pull in the same direction or if you lack the humility and the gratefulness you will not achieve the maximum.

Except for McLaren in 2007 (for Vettel, since Hamilton already didn't) which of Alonso's cars do you believe Vettel or Hamilton would have won a title in that Alonso didn't?

F1 is absolutely and completely a team sport. And Alonso has not spent very much of his career with a team capable of winning the championship. That, and only that, is why Vettel and Hamilton have twice his number each.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 748
Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
F1 is a team sport, and if you don't pull in the same direction or if you lack the humility and the gratefulness you will not achieve the maximum.

Except for McLaren in 2007 (for Vettel, since Hamilton already didn't) which of Alonso's cars do you believe Vettel or Hamilton would have won a title in that Alonso didn't?(1)

F1 is absolutely and completely a team sport. And Alonso has not spent very much of his career with a team capable of winning the championship. That, and only that, is why Vettel and Hamilton have twice his number each. (2)



(1) 2010 absolutely was there to take and both Hamilton(especially) and Vettel could have made it. 2012 is a good one too.

(2) No disrespect but your view of F1 and the team behind is simplistic to say the least. One thing is to luck into a winning car, another is to win and win and win without alienating your engineers/teammates/team principal/sponsors etc. The driver is there to inspire and to guide the team to greater things. If the engineers feel that the team is a mess(current McLaren) and not everybody is giving their 100% they will do just the same.
With Alonso there is a recurrent theme: Heroic drives, He put the cars where he didnt belong, etc... Music for the ears of team principals and engineers right?? who would not want to design and give the car to such a God? Horner, Wolff, Dr Zetsche, Lauda, Forghieri, Scheckter all had negative opinions on Alonso and how he disrupts teams. I bet they know nothing too.

I have paid my dues in a racing team during my days and I know how much difference a cohesive team can make.


Last edited by Pullrod on Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27543
This feels a bit like an obituary but I don't believe Alonso is finished with F1 just yet, given his present circumstances he was doomed to the F1 midfield for the next 2 years so why suffer that when he can be winning races in Indycars.

The F1 landscape is set to change after 2021, if circumstances become more favourable for him then don't be too surprised to see him back.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 1st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3375
Probably the most complete driver of this generation. Great race craft, unbelievable raw pace, so consistently good, rarely seemed to have an off weekend. But I do feel that his weakness was in the feedback/car development area. He really didn't show he can help push a struggling team forward the way that Vettel, Schumi, and even Hamilton did, for whatever reason. But he is a guy that could drive even a wheel barrow better than anyone. I think he will be appreciated more the longer he remains away from F1. Will he come back? I'm not so sure. Age is not on his side and F1 evolves quickly. If or when he comes back we might see him at a reduced state, much like when Michael came back. A shame he didn't snatch those titles in 07', 10' and 12', but he still did plenty in F1 to leave a pretty impressive legacy while he never had a dominant car. If he does Indy, I will be watching that series full time and rooting for him like no other.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5755
Location: Michigan, USA
Pullrod wrote:
(2) No disrespect but your view of F1 and the team behind is simplistic to say the least. One thing is to luck into a winning car, another is to win and win and win without alienating your engineers/teammates/team principal/sponsors etc. The driver is there to inspire and to guide the team to greater things. If the engineers feel that the team is a mess(current McLaren) and not everybody is giving their 100% they will do just the same.
With Alonso there is a recurrent theme: Heroic drives, He put the cars where he didnt belong, etc... Music for the ears of team principals and engineers right?? who would not want to design and give the car to such a God? Horner, Wolff, Dr Zetsche, Lauda, Forghieri, Scheckter all had negative opinions on Alonso and how he disrupts teams. I bet they know nothing too.

I have paid my dues in a racing team during my days and I know how much difference a cohesive team can make.

Well, I believe that your view essentially amounts to magical thinking, so fair enough. This whole baloney about a driver building a team around them is just that. I don't doubt that a team with a nice cohesive atmosphere functions better, but McLaren won two championships with their sides of the garage at war in 1988-1989, and it didn't slow them down one bit. Teams win because they have the right people and the right pieces to make the best car.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 748
Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
(2) No disrespect but your view of F1 and the team behind is simplistic to say the least. One thing is to luck into a winning car, another is to win and win and win without alienating your engineers/teammates/team principal/sponsors etc. The driver is there to inspire and to guide the team to greater things. If the engineers feel that the team is a mess(current McLaren) and not everybody is giving their 100% they will do just the same.
With Alonso there is a recurrent theme: Heroic drives, He put the cars where he didnt belong, etc... Music for the ears of team principals and engineers right?? who would not want to design and give the car to such a God? Horner, Wolff, Dr Zetsche, Lauda, Forghieri, Scheckter all had negative opinions on Alonso and how he disrupts teams. I bet they know nothing too.

I have paid my dues in a racing team during my days and I know how much difference a cohesive team can make.

Well, I believe that your view essentially amounts to magical thinking(1), so fair enough. This whole baloney about a driver building a team around them is just that. I don't doubt that a team with a nice cohesive atmosphere functions better, but McLaren won two championships with their sides of the garage at war in 1988-1989(2), and it didn't slow them down one bit. Teams win because they have the right people and the right pieces to make the best car.(3)


(1) This is what many fans are doing with Alonso's hypothetical championships

(2) Just like in 2007 but the drivers were pushing(and allowed to push) each other (BIG difference). I am convinced the little bit of superiority people perceived Mercedes had was because of the fight between Hamilton and Rosberg. Engineers were always on their toes to find the decisive tenth for their driver. The same happened to Ferrari in 2007-2008 where BOTH the drivers were allowed to fight and they produced until this day the best results of the last 10 years.

(3) The right people doesn't stay in a team forever but are also hired or move to join the best team with the best atmosphere and future. Do I believe that Mercedes or Ferrari would have been better than today with Alonso as their lead driver? NOT a chance.

As an engineer, i would rather design a car for Hamilton or Vettel than for Alonso. It is the same problem Honda had with Valentino Rossi when they felt people attributed their success to the Italian rider.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2269
Alonso’s 2010 is severely overrated. Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg all drove better and more consistent seasons than he did. I’m more than happy to debate anyone who disagrees.

With that being said, I’m still very sad to see such a terrific driver leave the sport. In his prime, his racecraft was unreal.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5755
Location: Michigan, USA
KingVoid wrote:
Alonso’s 2010 is severely overrated. Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg all drove better and more consistent seasons than he did. I’m more than happy to debate anyone who disagrees.

2010 was quite definitely not his best season. But I would dispute the idea that Vettel drove better. The others, fair enough, but Vettel threw away no shortage of his own points.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2269
Vettel lost more points due to reliability than he did from driver mistakes. His errors in Turkey and Belgium were bad, but his car failing from the lead in Bahrain, Australia and Korea was far more costly. Vettel lost 63 points in those three races while Alonso gained 16, that’s a 79 points swing due to unreliability. Alonso inherited two of Vettel’s wins, and Alonso also inherited Hockenheim from Massa. Alonso only won two races on merit in 2010 (Monza and Singapore). Alonso also made more mistakes than Vettel did in 2010 despite being far more experienced.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5755
Location: Michigan, USA
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel lost more points due to reliability than he did from driver mistakes. His errors in Turkey and Belgium were bad, but his car failing from the lead in Bahrain, Australia and Korea was far more costly. Vettel lost 63 points in those three races while Alonso gained 16, that’s a 79 points swing due to unreliability. Alonso inherited two of Vettel’s wins, and Alonso also inherited Hockenheim from Massa. Alonso only won two races on merit in 2010 (Monza and Singapore). Alonso also made more mistakes than Vettel did in 2010 despite being far more experienced.

Vettel had a faster car (often a much faster car). It shouldn't have been close enough for Alonso's experience to matter.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:09 am
Posts: 2784
Location: Perth, Australia
Absolutely one of the greatest, and one of the few drivers who it could be said took just about every single opportunity presented. A top quality driver who made few mistakes, was aggressive - but within the rules - and could be relied upon to deliver when needed.

Unfortunately a few career mistakes stopped him from leaving F1 (I don't use the term retire because he's going to keep driving. If I leave a job at Kmart to get a job at Target I don't retire from Kmart) with some of the best statistics ever. Just off the top of my head..

If he'd kept his cool in 2007 he could probably have beaten Kimi and Lewis to the title; if he'd not had the melt-down he probably would have won 2008 in the McLaren as well. As it didn't go down to the wire in this hypothetical season, McLaren would probably have been in a better position at the start of 2009.

I'm pretty sure he was offered a seat by Honda for 2009, which would have meant the Brawn drive if he'd been foolish enough to sign with Honda during the 2008 season. Regardless, I'm pretty sure Red Bull put the feelers out for him at that point, which could have put him in the team at the right time for their rise to the top. Alas, he went to Ferrari as they went on the downward spiral and Mercedes jumped to the top - and left Ferrari just as they became a force to challenge Mercedes.

Unfortunately it's a career of "what ifs", which is a remarkable thing to say given that when he won his titles he was the youngest WDC ever who had just usurped the most successful driver of all time. F1 was in his hands at that point, but he fumbled his way through the next few years and ended up with little to show for it but for wins and podiums.

I'm still disappointed he didn't call it quits a few years ago and join Webber at Porsche in WEC. That'd have been a mega line-up.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14053
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel lost more points due to reliability than he did from driver mistakes. His errors in Turkey and Belgium were bad, but his car failing from the lead in Bahrain, Australia and Korea was far more costly. Vettel lost 63 points in those three races while Alonso gained 16, that’s a 79 points swing due to unreliability. Alonso inherited two of Vettel’s wins, and Alonso also inherited Hockenheim from Massa. Alonso only won two races on merit in 2010 (Monza and Singapore). Alonso also made more mistakes than Vettel did in 2010 despite being far more experienced.


2010 was one of Alonso's poorer seasons but I wouldn't agree he made more mistakes than Vettel.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2269
He did though. Australia was his fault (he completely turned into Button as if he wasn’t there), he jumped he start in China, he eliminated himself from Monaco qualifying, and crashed out in Spa. The penalty in Silverstone was harsh but was his own doing.

Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel lost more points due to reliability than he did from driver mistakes. His errors in Turkey and Belgium were bad, but his car failing from the lead in Bahrain, Australia and Korea was far more costly. Vettel lost 63 points in those three races while Alonso gained 16, that’s a 79 points swing due to unreliability. Alonso inherited two of Vettel’s wins, and Alonso also inherited Hockenheim from Massa. Alonso only won two races on merit in 2010 (Monza and Singapore). Alonso also made more mistakes than Vettel did in 2010 despite being far more experienced.

Vettel had a faster car (often a much faster car). It shouldn't have been close enough for Alonso's experience to matter.

Alonso had a huge 79 point reliability swing in his favour. That definitely made up the difference in car pace, not to mention that there were still weekends where Ferrari was level or faster (faster in Canada, Germany, Monza; equal in Singapore and Bahrain).

Vettel and Alonso both had an equal opportunity to win the 2010 championship. In the end, the better man won.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5755
Location: Michigan, USA
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel and Alonso both had an equal opportunity to win the 2010 championship. In the end, the better man won.

And I suppose if Webber hadn't been pitted at the wrong time in Abu Dhabi, he would have been the better man than either of them?

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2269
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel and Alonso both had an equal opportunity to win the 2010 championship. In the end, the better man won.

And I suppose if Webber hadn't been pitted at the wrong time in Abu Dhabi, he would have been the better man than either of them?

Webber had already lost to Vettel before his pit stop. He needed to beat Vettel in that race and was being dropped at a rate of 10 seconds in 15 laps.

Anyway, Webber had the best car in 2010. He had the fastest car minus the unreliability Vettel suffered. Webber would have been a lucky WDC, like Rosberg.

Alonso and Vettel had equal cars in 2010 if you take both speed and reliability into account.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 748
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel and Alonso both had an equal opportunity to win the 2010 championship. In the end, the better man won.

And I suppose if Webber hadn't been pitted at the wrong time in Abu Dhabi, he would have been the better man than either of them?

At least Webber could challenge Vettel but the same could not be said of Massa.

Alonso had the advantage that he was #1 driver in his team against Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Button who all had equal status in their team that year, but still came short at the end.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2269
I didn’t even take #1 driver status into account.

Imagine how easily Vettel would have won 2010 if Webber let him through in Monaco and Turkey. That’s 32 points gained right there.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 251
KingVoid wrote:
I didn’t even take #1 driver status into account.

Imagine how easily Vettel would have won 2010 if Webber let him through in Monaco and Turkey. That’s 32 points gained right there.


He did let him through in Turkey. It wasn't Webber's fault that Vettel then turned into him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:44 am 
Online

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23701
For me personally Alonso is unquestionably the greatest driver of his generation, standing out above others in much the same way Senna and Schumacher did with theirs. I'm struggling to remember any significant off day for him and you knew that he would invariably get the best out of his machinery. He had virtually no weaknesses in the car and could be relied on to deliver. I think it's very sad how circumstance has deprived us of seeing him battling at the front in competitive machinery for so long and it's almost unimaginable that his last race win was in 2013! I was excited about his move back to McLaren as then "my" team would certainly be looking at titles in their near future. How wrong I was, but if he couldn't do it then I'm confident no-one could. A sad loss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 4828
KingVoid wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel and Alonso both had an equal opportunity to win the 2010 championship. In the end, the better man won.

And I suppose if Webber hadn't been pitted at the wrong time in Abu Dhabi, he would have been the better man than either of them?

Webber had already lost to Vettel before his pit stop. He needed to beat Vettel in that race and was being dropped at a rate of 10 seconds in 15 laps.

Anyway, Webber had the best car in 2010. He had the fastest car minus the unreliability Vettel suffered. Webber would have been a lucky WDC, like Rosberg.

Alonso and Vettel had equal cars in 2010 if you take both speed and reliability into account.


What complete rot. How are cars nearly half a second apart on average be any way near equal? Having to make up that pace deficit will define how you approach every session and Alonso who was also new to the team did too much at times and made mistakes but had at least one reliability issue I can think of in Malaysia as well that meant they had to run his remaining engines on lower damage cycles (less power) to make it through the year as well as that dodgy penalty in GB.

He was only in the title fight because Seb shared too many points with Webber,made his own mistakes and yeah had that unreliability. We also had Lewis and JB sharing points otherwise Lewis would've (deservedly) taken it over both.

Getting into a title fight with a car half a second slower isn't a plus point for Seb and negative for Alonso as you try and make out and that's why the team bosses named Alonso the best driver despite those mistakes, he just shouldn't have been in the fight with that car to begin with. (Lewis was DOTY imo but they at least acknowledge the car difference between the title protagonists by giving it to Alonso)

Calling it equal is like calling this years Red Bull equal to Merc and Ferrari, it's silly. There would've been opportunity for a lead Bull driver with a support act to be in this years title fight because of the plethora of issues the lead drivers have had at Merc/Ferrari (If the Bull was reliable anyway) but it wouldn't make the cars or opportunity they have equal at all. It's being in a position to take advantage of mistakes vs being able to approach the weekend knowing you have the car to top each session like the RB6 gave.

It's chalk and cheese.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AnRs, Black_Flag_11, BMWSauber84, Invade, Jezza13, paul85, TheDamus, UnlikeUday, Zoue and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group