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Zoue
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:00 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
klauss wrote:
Zoue wrote:
To be fair I don't recall Alonso blaming Renault for crashgate, but didn't he accuse them of trying to sabotage him at one point? Can't remember exactly but that does stick in the mind.

There are also accusations of attempted blackmail at McLaren. Don't know how true they are but it's more mud to stick, really. He does have a history of falling out with people, which I guess is what Horner was referring to when saying he "tends to cause a bit of chaos wherever he's gone." It's a crying shame as we're robbed of seeing arguably the greatest driver of his generation in a competitive car, but I think he's only really got himself to blame for the fact that no-one appears to want him, despite that


first, that was in 2006 right after the chinese gp, he felt let down by the team and thought they didn't want him to win and leave with the no.1 to McLaren.

secondly, my my how the times change ! back in 07 it was pretty much common knowledge Alonso had tried to bully Dennis into giving him no. 1 status over Hamilton by threatening Dennis to expose McLaren to FIA through various mails which clearly implied McLaren organization knew about the data stolen. he got out of spygate with no penalty whatsoever because Mosley was gunning for Dennis big time and Alonso was the small fish that was gonna get him the big fish.

yes, I'm ware. The reason I wrote "accusations of blackmail" is because, although this was widely reported, Ron also went on record to say he hadn't. Now this may have been a PR or legal exercise, but the point is we cannot say with 100% certainty that Alonso did indeed try to blackmail Ron. We do know Alonso was involved (more so than Ron, ironically enough), but the rest is speculation and hearsay. Without wanting to derail the thread too much the whole episode does support Horner's accusation of Alonso leaving chaos in his wake.

I thought this was all on record that Dennis panicked and phoned Mosley to tell him what Alonso had threatened, this reopened the spygate investigation were Alonso's emails were used as evidence against McLaren.

It is. The blackmail part was never actually proven, though
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Siao7
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:43 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
klauss wrote:
Zoue wrote:
To be fair I don't recall Alonso blaming Renault for crashgate, but didn't he accuse them of trying to sabotage him at one point? Can't remember exactly but that does stick in the mind.

There are also accusations of attempted blackmail at McLaren. Don't know how true they are but it's more mud to stick, really. He does have a history of falling out with people, which I guess is what Horner was referring to when saying he "tends to cause a bit of chaos wherever he's gone." It's a crying shame as we're robbed of seeing arguably the greatest driver of his generation in a competitive car, but I think he's only really got himself to blame for the fact that no-one appears to want him, despite that


first, that was in 2006 right after the chinese gp, he felt let down by the team and thought they didn't want him to win and leave with the no.1 to McLaren.

secondly, my my how the times change ! back in 07 it was pretty much common knowledge Alonso had tried to bully Dennis into giving him no. 1 status over Hamilton by threatening Dennis to expose McLaren to FIA through various mails which clearly implied McLaren organization knew about the data stolen. he got out of spygate with no penalty whatsoever because Mosley was gunning for Dennis big time and Alonso was the small fish that was gonna get him the big fish.

yes, I'm ware. The reason I wrote "accusations of blackmail" is because, although this was widely reported, Ron also went on record to say he hadn't. Now this may have been a PR or legal exercise, but the point is we cannot say with 100% certainty that Alonso did indeed try to blackmail Ron. We do know Alonso was involved (more so than Ron, ironically enough), but the rest is speculation and hearsay. Without wanting to derail the thread too much the whole episode does support Horner's accusation of Alonso leaving chaos in his wake.

I thought this was all on record that Dennis panicked and phoned Mosley to tell him what Alonso had threatened, this reopened the spygate investigation were Alonso's emails were used as evidence against McLaren.

It is. The blackmail part was never actually proven, though

I can easily believe it though. Otherwise why would Ron go to Mosley? The storm seemed to have calmed down at that point with the FIA if I remember correctly, Ron would be shooting himself (and the team) on the foot by going to Mosley
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Zoue
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:42 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
klauss wrote:
first, that was in 2006 right after the chinese gp, he felt let down by the team and thought they didn't want him to win and leave with the no.1 to McLaren.

secondly, my my how the times change ! back in 07 it was pretty much common knowledge Alonso had tried to bully Dennis into giving him no. 1 status over Hamilton by threatening Dennis to expose McLaren to FIA through various mails which clearly implied McLaren organization knew about the data stolen. he got out of spygate with no penalty whatsoever because Mosley was gunning for Dennis big time and Alonso was the small fish that was gonna get him the big fish.

yes, I'm ware. The reason I wrote "accusations of blackmail" is because, although this was widely reported, Ron also went on record to say he hadn't. Now this may have been a PR or legal exercise, but the point is we cannot say with 100% certainty that Alonso did indeed try to blackmail Ron. We do know Alonso was involved (more so than Ron, ironically enough), but the rest is speculation and hearsay. Without wanting to derail the thread too much the whole episode does support Horner's accusation of Alonso leaving chaos in his wake.

I thought this was all on record that Dennis panicked and phoned Mosley to tell him what Alonso had threatened, this reopened the spygate investigation were Alonso's emails were used as evidence against McLaren.

It is. The blackmail part was never actually proven, though

I can easily believe it though. Otherwise why would Ron go to Mosley? The storm seemed to have calmed down at that point with the FIA if I remember correctly, Ron would be shooting himself (and the team) on the foot by going to Mosley

Yeah, I think there is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that's what happened. Ron going straight to Max indicates either a) that he had been unaware what was going on, b) that Alonso did in fact try to blackmail him, or c) both of the above. But since there is no hard evidence I was trying to be non-controversial. Clearly failed on that one!
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Siao7
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:47 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yes, I'm ware. The reason I wrote "accusations of blackmail" is because, although this was widely reported, Ron also went on record to say he hadn't. Now this may have been a PR or legal exercise, but the point is we cannot say with 100% certainty that Alonso did indeed try to blackmail Ron. We do know Alonso was involved (more so than Ron, ironically enough), but the rest is speculation and hearsay. Without wanting to derail the thread too much the whole episode does support Horner's accusation of Alonso leaving chaos in his wake.

I thought this was all on record that Dennis panicked and phoned Mosley to tell him what Alonso had threatened, this reopened the spygate investigation were Alonso's emails were used as evidence against McLaren.

It is. The blackmail part was never actually proven, though

I can easily believe it though. Otherwise why would Ron go to Mosley? The storm seemed to have calmed down at that point with the FIA if I remember correctly, Ron would be shooting himself (and the team) on the foot by going to Mosley

Yeah, I think there is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that's what happened. Ron going straight to Max indicates either a) that he had been unaware what was going on, b) that Alonso did in fact try to blackmail him, or c) both of the above. But since there is no hard evidence I was trying to be non-controversial. Clearly failed on that one!

Oh yeah, I understand this. We are only going by the info available on the net. I doubt there was ever hard evidence, I do not think anyone would be so silly as to send an email or something like that. It would have been a verbal "warning" from Alonso (hypothetical again, just to make it clear!)
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pc27b
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:52 pm 
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scott dixon just signed a two year deal with ganassi. lot of people think mclaren was sniffing around him with some big money offers. with alonso talking about the 14th, mclaren might not be entering full time indy car until 2020
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rodH
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:53 am 
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pc27b wrote:
scott dixon just signed a two year deal with ganassi. lot of people think mclaren was sniffing around him with some big money offers. with alonso talking about the 14th, mclaren might not be entering full time indy car until 2020


Or maybe McLaren can't afford to pay Dixon (probably the highest paid indycar driver) and Alonso at the same time, so they end up with a good up and comer like Wickens to team up with nando?
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rodH
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:05 am 
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Sure appears that Alonso will have an annoucement tomorrow and that Indycar responded in a tweet something to the effect "do we still have a lunch date tomorrow". Either someone is seriously trolling at Indycar or Nando is gone to Indycar next year, which is what I hope happens, since there is no way he going to one of the top 3 teams and would like to see him still succeed in a race car. The thing I actually like about indycar is that the driver still makes a big difference since the cars are so close.

Hamilton and others in F1 kind of laugh at it with the explanation that, "see even Alonso can come in on to indycar and compete towards front". My reply to that is that 1. Yep, Alonso worked his donkey off in the car and on simulators and getting private indy coaches to teach him all the tricks". And 2. (WHICH I THINK IS THE BIGGER POINT)......Shouldn't one of the top drivers in world and in F1 be able to compete towards the front? Doesn't that prove that he is a good driver (as well as the top F1 guys) and that HE should be able to compete. F1 is so use to only the top 2 teams competing that they lose perspective of reality sometimes. Why is it surprising that when everyone is pretty much in the same chassis and same motor, that one of the top open wheel drivers in the world would actually be up towards the front and have a chance to actually win. What a novel idea!!
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Covalent
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:43 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
They were doing it before he knew about it so nothing wrong with blaming McLaren (If he did)
Renault admitted it
Ferrari could easily have been lower than 2nd without him
Honda were under powered. And unreliable

I suppose it's just as possible to burn bridges with the truth as a lie but I know what I prefer. True there's no way back to a competitive drive though, unless McLaren pull a miracle or he waits until 2021 and gets a favourable result there.

To be fair I don't recall Alonso blaming Renault for crashgate, but didn't he accuse them of trying to sabotage him at one point? Can't remember exactly but that does stick in the mind.

There are also accusations of attempted blackmail at McLaren. Don't know how true they are but it's more mud to stick, really. He does have a history of falling out with people, which I guess is what Horner was referring to when saying he "tends to cause a bit of chaos wherever he's gone." It's a crying shame as we're robbed of seeing arguably the greatest driver of his generation in a competitive car, but I think he's only really got himself to blame for the fact that no-one appears to want him, despite that


He did in his first spell yeah.

He did but tried to take it back but Ron had already called Max. And Horner then tried to sign him for 2008, fully aware of his behaviour but he had different needs then so it was fine.

The doors are closed for Alonso in the same way they were for Lewis in 2012 at Red Bull and Ferrari. They're happy with the rooster they've got and don't want to deal with two of them because it causes problems. Horner isn't even going to put Sainz next to Max never mind someone like Alonso, they're going to go down the same path as Merc/Ferrari.

Alonso's problem ls he's too quick to provide a comfortable working relationship with another top driver. If he was slower and cuddly then sure he'd get put next to Seb,Lewis or Max but he's neither so he won't. And he's too old to be an attractive option for a swap so he is where he is.


I am not sure about that. The way he behaved in 2007. It is obvious he cannot compete with his team mate with equal status.


He seemed fine alongside Trulli at Renault and Button at Mclaren. What happened in 2007 was a pretty specific set of circumstances and can't really be transposed. Him and Hamilton never got to the point of refusing to the let the other past without crashing into them like Hamilton and Rosberg but I don't think Hamilton's 4 seasons with Rosberg proves he couldn't compete with a team mate with equal status.

I wouldn't put it past Alonso to having been instrumental in getting Trulli sacked in 2004 while trailing him in the points...

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Zoue
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:50 am 
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Covalent wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
To be fair I don't recall Alonso blaming Renault for crashgate, but didn't he accuse them of trying to sabotage him at one point? Can't remember exactly but that does stick in the mind.

There are also accusations of attempted blackmail at McLaren. Don't know how true they are but it's more mud to stick, really. He does have a history of falling out with people, which I guess is what Horner was referring to when saying he "tends to cause a bit of chaos wherever he's gone." It's a crying shame as we're robbed of seeing arguably the greatest driver of his generation in a competitive car, but I think he's only really got himself to blame for the fact that no-one appears to want him, despite that


He did in his first spell yeah.

He did but tried to take it back but Ron had already called Max. And Horner then tried to sign him for 2008, fully aware of his behaviour but he had different needs then so it was fine.

The doors are closed for Alonso in the same way they were for Lewis in 2012 at Red Bull and Ferrari. They're happy with the rooster they've got and don't want to deal with two of them because it causes problems. Horner isn't even going to put Sainz next to Max never mind someone like Alonso, they're going to go down the same path as Merc/Ferrari.

Alonso's problem ls he's too quick to provide a comfortable working relationship with another top driver. If he was slower and cuddly then sure he'd get put next to Seb,Lewis or Max but he's neither so he won't. And he's too old to be an attractive option for a swap so he is where he is.


I am not sure about that. The way he behaved in 2007. It is obvious he cannot compete with his team mate with equal status.


He seemed fine alongside Trulli at Renault and Button at Mclaren. What happened in 2007 was a pretty specific set of circumstances and can't really be transposed. Him and Hamilton never got to the point of refusing to the let the other past without crashing into them like Hamilton and Rosberg but I don't think Hamilton's 4 seasons with Rosberg proves he couldn't compete with a team mate with equal status.

I wouldn't put it past Alonso to having been instrumental in getting Trulli sacked in 2004 while trailing him in the points...

I wouldn't, either, but do you think he would have had that kind of power at that stage of his career?
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mikeyg123
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:39 am 
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How and why would Alonso have that kind of power? He'd done nowt by then and as you say, was trailing in points.

Add to that the fact that Alonso and Trulli were known to get on very well.
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Siao7
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:49 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
How and why would Alonso have that kind of power? He'd done nowt by then and as you say, was trailing in points.

Add to that the fact that Alonso and Trulli were known to get on very well.


That never stopped drivers in the past. Look what happened to the two childhood friends at Mercedes in the recent years.

I am also sceptical about Alonso's "power", but he was on the rise and it was obvious that he would be a future star, much like Max nowadays. They probably saw the team's future with him and wanted to keep him happy.
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Covalent
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:17 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Covalent wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

He did in his first spell yeah.

He did but tried to take it back but Ron had already called Max. And Horner then tried to sign him for 2008, fully aware of his behaviour but he had different needs then so it was fine.

The doors are closed for Alonso in the same way they were for Lewis in 2012 at Red Bull and Ferrari. They're happy with the rooster they've got and don't want to deal with two of them because it causes problems. Horner isn't even going to put Sainz next to Max never mind someone like Alonso, they're going to go down the same path as Merc/Ferrari.

Alonso's problem ls he's too quick to provide a comfortable working relationship with another top driver. If he was slower and cuddly then sure he'd get put next to Seb,Lewis or Max but he's neither so he won't. And he's too old to be an attractive option for a swap so he is where he is.


I am not sure about that. The way he behaved in 2007. It is obvious he cannot compete with his team mate with equal status.


He seemed fine alongside Trulli at Renault and Button at Mclaren. What happened in 2007 was a pretty specific set of circumstances and can't really be transposed. Him and Hamilton never got to the point of refusing to the let the other past without crashing into them like Hamilton and Rosberg but I don't think Hamilton's 4 seasons with Rosberg proves he couldn't compete with a team mate with equal status.

I wouldn't put it past Alonso to having been instrumental in getting Trulli sacked in 2004 while trailing him in the points...

I wouldn't, either, but do you think he would have had that kind of power at that stage of his career?

I don't know but as the team principal was his manager he'd have more influence on team decisions than the average driver.

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Lotus49
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:24 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Covalent wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:

I am not sure about that. The way he behaved in 2007. It is obvious he cannot compete with his team mate with equal status.


He seemed fine alongside Trulli at Renault and Button at Mclaren. What happened in 2007 was a pretty specific set of circumstances and can't really be transposed. Him and Hamilton never got to the point of refusing to the let the other past without crashing into them like Hamilton and Rosberg but I don't think Hamilton's 4 seasons with Rosberg proves he couldn't compete with a team mate with equal status.

I wouldn't put it past Alonso to having been instrumental in getting Trulli sacked in 2004 while trailing him in the points...

I wouldn't, either, but do you think he would have had that kind of power at that stage of his career?

I don't know but as the team principal was his manager he'd have more influence on team decisions than the average driver.


He was Trulli's manager as well. And Jarno was trying to get a lot more money out of him by using Toyota's interest. While driving pretty poorly after embarrassing them in France. Then he blamed the team for his poor form after that mistake.

That can get you the boot all by yourself to be fair.

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mikeyg123
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:44 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
How and why would Alonso have that kind of power? He'd done nowt by then and as you say, was trailing in points.

Add to that the fact that Alonso and Trulli were known to get on very well.


That never stopped drivers in the past. Look what happened to the two childhood friends at Mercedes in the recent years.

I am also sceptical about Alonso's "power", but he was on the rise and it was obvious that he would be a future star, much like Max nowadays. They probably saw the team's future with him and wanted to keep him happy.


There's not a jot of evidence to suggest that and Alonso and Trulli remained friends.
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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Ah, the PF1 psychologists in action....

Can't compete with equal talent...
Needs the team to revolve around him...
not a live and let live kind of teammate...
has to have a teammate who doesn't give him problems...

and...

he is finished as a potential race winner...

To write off Alonso as we are seeing here is ridiculous. Don't even get me started on the 2007 fiasco known as McLaren, as it appears that the re-writhing history gang is warming up their yearly story-line again. Alonso is not driving a car that can win, few will argue that. Alonso may not get another competitive drive in F1, I won't argue that, but it is not because he is not capable of winning if in a competitive car. There are lot of factors in play as has been pointed out by many, but to think he is not capable of winning is asinine.

Personally, I hope that Alonso does take his considerable skills elsewhere and seek success in other series, be it Indy, WEC, or whatever. He certainly is not innocent in the relationships that have perhaps burned F1 bridges, but then, if one is to be honest, he hasn't been wrong in much of what has been attributed to him. Like Lewis, there have been many times when I wished Nando would just shut up, and be wise when and where he comments... but apparently neither of them are of that ilk. It is who they are, and sometimes the comments have consequences.

Well you can add Horner as the latest psychologist who said that Alonso causes chaos within teams, this is not just forumers blithely making things up, this is obviously widely believed within the paddock.

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Covalent
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Quote from 2015 (Marca):
"Jarno Trulli, Fernando Alonso's former teammate and, supposedly, his friend did not hesitate to question the Spanish driver's character and express his preference for Sebastian Vettel. "I have worked with Alonso and it's hard. As the manager of a team, I'd take Vettel over Alonso", assured the Italian.

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Covalent
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:18 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Covalent wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

He seemed fine alongside Trulli at Renault and Button at Mclaren. What happened in 2007 was a pretty specific set of circumstances and can't really be transposed. Him and Hamilton never got to the point of refusing to the let the other past without crashing into them like Hamilton and Rosberg but I don't think Hamilton's 4 seasons with Rosberg proves he couldn't compete with a team mate with equal status.

I wouldn't put it past Alonso to having been instrumental in getting Trulli sacked in 2004 while trailing him in the points...

I wouldn't, either, but do you think he would have had that kind of power at that stage of his career?

I don't know but as the team principal was his manager he'd have more influence on team decisions than the average driver.


He was Trulli's manager as well. And Jarno was trying to get a lot more money out of him by using Toyota's interest. While driving pretty poorly after embarrassing them in France. Then he blamed the team for his poor form after that mistake.

That can get you the boot all by yourself to be fair.

Fair point about him being Trulli's manager as well, although IMO it was plain to see who was his favorite...

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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
They were doing it before he knew about it so nothing wrong with blaming McLaren (If he did)
Renault admitted it
Ferrari could easily have been lower than 2nd without him
Honda were under powered. And unreliable

I suppose it's just as possible to burn bridges with the truth as a lie but I know what I prefer. True there's no way back to a competitive drive though, unless McLaren pull a miracle or he waits until 2021 and gets a favourable result there.

To be fair I don't recall Alonso blaming Renault for crashgate, but didn't he accuse them of trying to sabotage him at one point? Can't remember exactly but that does stick in the mind.

There are also accusations of attempted blackmail at McLaren. Don't know how true they are but it's more mud to stick, really. He does have a history of falling out with people, which I guess is what Horner was referring to when saying he "tends to cause a bit of chaos wherever he's gone." It's a crying shame as we're robbed of seeing arguably the greatest driver of his generation in a competitive car, but I think he's only really got himself to blame for the fact that no-one appears to want him, despite that


He did in his first spell yeah.

He did but tried to take it back but Ron had already called Max. And Horner then tried to sign him for 2008, fully aware of his behaviour but he had different needs then so it was fine.

The doors are closed for Alonso in the same way they were for Lewis in 2012 at Red Bull and Ferrari. They're happy with the rooster they've got and don't want to deal with two of them because it causes problems. Horner isn't even going to put Sainz next to Max never mind someone like Alonso, they're going to go down the same path as Merc/Ferrari.

Alonso's problem ls he's too quick to provide a comfortable working relationship with another top driver. If he was slower and cuddly then sure he'd get put next to Seb,Lewis or Max but he's neither so he won't. And he's too old to be an attractive option for a swap so he is where he is.


I am not sure about that. The way he behaved in 2007. It is obvious he cannot compete with his team mate with equal status.


Was the only thing going on in 2007 the drivers having equal status?

For the drivers yes, Alonso was promised #1 status by Dennis which he got up until Monaco when Hamilton told the British press he was only the #2 driver despite the fact he was leading the WDC title race, the press turned on McLaren and then things changed to the annoyance of Alonso who felt betrayed by Dennis.

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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:44 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Thebusinessmuppet wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
People get to throw the toxic and failure words around with too much abandon.

Alonso could very well have 5 WDCs now. One in 2007 if not for Lewis' (and only later his own) antics. Another one in 2010 if not for a botched team strategy in the last race. And the last one in 2012 if not for Grosjean taking him out in Spa in the first corner...

What I am pointing to is that probably, had any of these very plausible alternative realities had come to pass, we'd all be looking at his personality in a different light. Who knows...

Still, it is a shame one of the other top drivers is not actually asking the team to bring him on. Very very short sighted in my opinion. If we're still talking about Senna-Prost it is in large part due to the rivalry. And an Alonso-Hamilton pairing is the only to come close to that since...
Short sighted. Despite every predictable problems it might bring...


I think the toxicity level by Alonso is 100% to on him. In 2007, he had some awful races too. Bahrain, Canada, Fuji, Spain.

In 2010, everyone keeps saying the botched pitstop was the reason he lost. He lost a place at the start to Button, and then he could not only not pass Petrov, he never had a genuine attempt. Pkus he had some horrible races in 2010 as well. Getting caught in a startline spin in Australia, jumping the start in China, crashing in Monaco practice, failing to qualify to q3 in Turkey, not giving the place back to Kubica in Silverstone, poor driving in Belgium.

2012, he drove well, gotta give credit to him, but squeezing Raikkonnen at the start really turned the momentum because the point deficit went to 4 points and Vettel took the lead after his Korean gp win. Not to mention, he drove really average at Brazil and only came to championship winning position when Hamilton and Hulkenburg crashed.

I think Alonso has become bitter that he will most likely be a driver who could have won more championships, but Vettel and Hamilton have pretty much put a stop to that. Alonso's look after Brazil 2012says it all.


In 2010 I think the strategy error gets mentioned because it was so obvious that Red Bull would split but I think his accidents get more mentions overall but if anything gets over mentioned it's not passing Petrov. No drs and on Bridgestones, rev limited V8's and a old Ferrari engine down on power because of losing one earlier in Malaysia and Lewis was stuck behind the other Renault at the same time so obviously the Renault's were good in a straigtline that day. Throwing it away by crashing isn't going to help him if later something happens upfront he'd be crucified but he did make one move trying to induce the error but none came.

I think he's bitter he never got given the quickest car for any sustained period despite sitting in the biggest teams. His career spans 3 dominant car periods which he never got to have so there's bound to be some bitterness there for sure.

He didn't get the level of cars that his talent deserved but maybe what his attitude deserved, you can't but help feel that some of his dilemma was self inflicted.

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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Sounds like we'll find out tomorrow (14th) what Alonso plans on doing.

I can't make my mind up whether I want him to go to Indy or have another year at McLaren. Indy would be cool because of the 500 and hopefully the chance to fight for wins and the title but F1 is still a big draw and I'm at least a bit more excited about the prospect of seeing more Dan vs Alonso if McLaren can take it to Renault and also the prospect of Lando vs Nando.

I don't see the point in him continuing in F1 and driving cars that are beneath him, his talent is wasted in F1 but will shine brightly in Indycars.

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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
klauss wrote:
Zoue wrote:
To be fair I don't recall Alonso blaming Renault for crashgate, but didn't he accuse them of trying to sabotage him at one point? Can't remember exactly but that does stick in the mind.

There are also accusations of attempted blackmail at McLaren. Don't know how true they are but it's more mud to stick, really. He does have a history of falling out with people, which I guess is what Horner was referring to when saying he "tends to cause a bit of chaos wherever he's gone." It's a crying shame as we're robbed of seeing arguably the greatest driver of his generation in a competitive car, but I think he's only really got himself to blame for the fact that no-one appears to want him, despite that


first, that was in 2006 right after the chinese gp, he felt let down by the team and thought they didn't want him to win and leave with the no.1 to McLaren.

secondly, my my how the times change ! back in 07 it was pretty much common knowledge Alonso had tried to bully Dennis into giving him no. 1 status over Hamilton by threatening Dennis to expose McLaren to FIA through various mails which clearly implied McLaren organization knew about the data stolen. he got out of spygate with no penalty whatsoever because Mosley was gunning for Dennis big time and Alonso was the small fish that was gonna get him the big fish.

yes, I'm ware. The reason I wrote "accusations of blackmail" is because, although this was widely reported, Ron also went on record to say he hadn't. Now this may have been a PR or legal exercise, but the point is we cannot say with 100% certainty that Alonso did indeed try to blackmail Ron. We do know Alonso was involved (more so than Ron, ironically enough), but the rest is speculation and hearsay. Without wanting to derail the thread too much the whole episode does support Horner's accusation of Alonso leaving chaos in his wake.

I thought this was all on record that Dennis panicked and phoned Mosley to tell him what Alonso had threatened, this reopened the spygate investigation were Alonso's emails were used as evidence against McLaren.

It is. The blackmail part was never actually proven, though

So why the need for Dennis to phone Mosley, in what context did Alonso feel the need to tell Dennis about the emails given that Alonso was in a rage at the time, was it not reported he kicked down the door to Dennis' office?

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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
klauss wrote:
first, that was in 2006 right after the chinese gp, he felt let down by the team and thought they didn't want him to win and leave with the no.1 to McLaren.

secondly, my my how the times change ! back in 07 it was pretty much common knowledge Alonso had tried to bully Dennis into giving him no. 1 status over Hamilton by threatening Dennis to expose McLaren to FIA through various mails which clearly implied McLaren organization knew about the data stolen. he got out of spygate with no penalty whatsoever because Mosley was gunning for Dennis big time and Alonso was the small fish that was gonna get him the big fish.

yes, I'm ware. The reason I wrote "accusations of blackmail" is because, although this was widely reported, Ron also went on record to say he hadn't. Now this may have been a PR or legal exercise, but the point is we cannot say with 100% certainty that Alonso did indeed try to blackmail Ron. We do know Alonso was involved (more so than Ron, ironically enough), but the rest is speculation and hearsay. Without wanting to derail the thread too much the whole episode does support Horner's accusation of Alonso leaving chaos in his wake.

I thought this was all on record that Dennis panicked and phoned Mosley to tell him what Alonso had threatened, this reopened the spygate investigation were Alonso's emails were used as evidence against McLaren.

It is. The blackmail part was never actually proven, though

I can easily believe it though. Otherwise why would Ron go to Mosley? The storm seemed to have calmed down at that point with the FIA if I remember correctly, Ron would be shooting himself (and the team) on the foot by going to Mosley

Yes it had gone away until Mosley found out about Alonso's emails.

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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Covalent wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
He did in his first spell yeah.

He did but tried to take it back but Ron had already called Max. And Horner then tried to sign him for 2008, fully aware of his behaviour but he had different needs then so it was fine.

The doors are closed for Alonso in the same way they were for Lewis in 2012 at Red Bull and Ferrari. They're happy with the rooster they've got and don't want to deal with two of them because it causes problems. Horner isn't even going to put Sainz next to Max never mind someone like Alonso, they're going to go down the same path as Merc/Ferrari.

Alonso's problem ls he's too quick to provide a comfortable working relationship with another top driver. If he was slower and cuddly then sure he'd get put next to Seb,Lewis or Max but he's neither so he won't. And he's too old to be an attractive option for a swap so he is where he is.


I am not sure about that. The way he behaved in 2007. It is obvious he cannot compete with his team mate with equal status.


He seemed fine alongside Trulli at Renault and Button at Mclaren. What happened in 2007 was a pretty specific set of circumstances and can't really be transposed. Him and Hamilton never got to the point of refusing to the let the other past without crashing into them like Hamilton and Rosberg but I don't think Hamilton's 4 seasons with Rosberg proves he couldn't compete with a team mate with equal status.

I wouldn't put it past Alonso to having been instrumental in getting Trulli sacked in 2004 while trailing him in the points...

I wouldn't, either, but do you think he would have had that kind of power at that stage of his career?

I thought it was more to do with Trulli's contract, he didn't want to keep Briatore on as his manager?

In respect to Alonso I think that aspect of him changed after he became F1 Champion in 2005, he then seemed to become political?

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Zoue
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
klauss wrote:
first, that was in 2006 right after the chinese gp, he felt let down by the team and thought they didn't want him to win and leave with the no.1 to McLaren.

secondly, my my how the times change ! back in 07 it was pretty much common knowledge Alonso had tried to bully Dennis into giving him no. 1 status over Hamilton by threatening Dennis to expose McLaren to FIA through various mails which clearly implied McLaren organization knew about the data stolen. he got out of spygate with no penalty whatsoever because Mosley was gunning for Dennis big time and Alonso was the small fish that was gonna get him the big fish.

yes, I'm ware. The reason I wrote "accusations of blackmail" is because, although this was widely reported, Ron also went on record to say he hadn't. Now this may have been a PR or legal exercise, but the point is we cannot say with 100% certainty that Alonso did indeed try to blackmail Ron. We do know Alonso was involved (more so than Ron, ironically enough), but the rest is speculation and hearsay. Without wanting to derail the thread too much the whole episode does support Horner's accusation of Alonso leaving chaos in his wake.

I thought this was all on record that Dennis panicked and phoned Mosley to tell him what Alonso had threatened, this reopened the spygate investigation were Alonso's emails were used as evidence against McLaren.

It is. The blackmail part was never actually proven, though

So why the need for Dennis to phone Mosley, in what context did Alonso feel the need to tell Dennis about the emails given that Alonso was in a rage at the time, was it not reported he kicked down the door to Dennis' office?

Look, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just pointing out that strictly from a factual viewpoint none of the above was ever proven and the waters were muddied when RD denied Alonso ever tried to blackmail him.

It seems even when trying to avoid controversy it bites you in the pickle. Can't win!
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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Covalent wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
He seemed fine alongside Trulli at Renault and Button at Mclaren. What happened in 2007 was a pretty specific set of circumstances and can't really be transposed. Him and Hamilton never got to the point of refusing to the let the other past without crashing into them like Hamilton and Rosberg but I don't think Hamilton's 4 seasons with Rosberg proves he couldn't compete with a team mate with equal status.

I wouldn't put it past Alonso to having been instrumental in getting Trulli sacked in 2004 while trailing him in the points...

I wouldn't, either, but do you think he would have had that kind of power at that stage of his career?

I don't know but as the team principal was his manager he'd have more influence on team decisions than the average driver.


He was Trulli's manager as well. And Jarno was trying to get a lot more money out of him by using Toyota's interest. While driving pretty poorly after embarrassing them in France. Then he blamed the team for his poor form after that mistake.

That can get you the boot all by yourself to be fair.

One or 2 bad races doesn't get you the sack especially when you have more points than your teammate, that was just used as an excuse to sack him rather than admitting he was sacked because he wouldn't sign a new management contract with Briatore.

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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:05 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Quote from 2015 (Marca):
"Jarno Trulli, Fernando Alonso's former teammate and, supposedly, his friend did not hesitate to question the Spanish driver's character and express his preference for Sebastian Vettel. "I have worked with Alonso and it's hard. As the manager of a team, I'd take Vettel over Alonso", assured the Italian.

First port of call is to beat your teammate, I daresay that Alonso takes this on to the next level.

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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I thought this was all on record that Dennis panicked and phoned Mosley to tell him what Alonso had threatened, this reopened the spygate investigation were Alonso's emails were used as evidence against McLaren.

It is. The blackmail part was never actually proven, though

So why the need for Dennis to phone Mosley, in what context did Alonso feel the need to tell Dennis about the emails given that Alonso was in a rage at the time, was it not reported he kicked down the door to Dennis' office?

Look, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just pointing out that strictly from a factual viewpoint none of the above was ever proven and the waters were muddied when RD denied Alonso ever tried to blackmail him.

It seems even when trying to avoid controversy it bites you in the pickle. Can't win!

When did Dennis say this, when he re-signed Alonso for 2015?

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Lotus49
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
To be fair I don't recall Alonso blaming Renault for crashgate, but didn't he accuse them of trying to sabotage him at one point? Can't remember exactly but that does stick in the mind.

There are also accusations of attempted blackmail at McLaren. Don't know how true they are but it's more mud to stick, really. He does have a history of falling out with people, which I guess is what Horner was referring to when saying he "tends to cause a bit of chaos wherever he's gone." It's a crying shame as we're robbed of seeing arguably the greatest driver of his generation in a competitive car, but I think he's only really got himself to blame for the fact that no-one appears to want him, despite that


He did in his first spell yeah.

He did but tried to take it back but Ron had already called Max. And Horner then tried to sign him for 2008, fully aware of his behaviour but he had different needs then so it was fine.

The doors are closed for Alonso in the same way they were for Lewis in 2012 at Red Bull and Ferrari. They're happy with the rooster they've got and don't want to deal with two of them because it causes problems. Horner isn't even going to put Sainz next to Max never mind someone like Alonso, they're going to go down the same path as Merc/Ferrari.

Alonso's problem ls he's too quick to provide a comfortable working relationship with another top driver. If he was slower and cuddly then sure he'd get put next to Seb,Lewis or Max but he's neither so he won't. And he's too old to be an attractive option for a swap so he is where he is.


I am not sure about that. The way he behaved in 2007. It is obvious he cannot compete with his team mate with equal status.


Was the only thing going on in 2007 the drivers having equal status?

For the drivers yes, Alonso was promised #1 status by Dennis which he got up until Monaco when Hamilton told the British press he was only the #2 driver despite the fact he was leading the WDC title race, the press turned on McLaren and then things changed to the annoyance of Alonso who felt betrayed by Dennis.


Right so there was more going on than just 2 drivers with equal status. Broken promises,suspicion over tampering and general mistrust being the most obvious.

And to be clear Alonso didn't kick off about the equal status being introduced until Lewis ignored an order in Hungary Q. That's when Alonso (over) reacted.

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Siao7
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
How and why would Alonso have that kind of power? He'd done nowt by then and as you say, was trailing in points.

Add to that the fact that Alonso and Trulli were known to get on very well.


That never stopped drivers in the past. Look what happened to the two childhood friends at Mercedes in the recent years.

I am also sceptical about Alonso's "power", but he was on the rise and it was obvious that he would be a future star, much like Max nowadays. They probably saw the team's future with him and wanted to keep him happy.


There's not a jot of evidence to suggest that and Alonso and Trulli remained friends.

Agreed
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Lotus49
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Thebusinessmuppet wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
People get to throw the toxic and failure words around with too much abandon.

Alonso could very well have 5 WDCs now. One in 2007 if not for Lewis' (and only later his own) antics. Another one in 2010 if not for a botched team strategy in the last race. And the last one in 2012 if not for Grosjean taking him out in Spa in the first corner...

What I am pointing to is that probably, had any of these very plausible alternative realities had come to pass, we'd all be looking at his personality in a different light. Who knows...

Still, it is a shame one of the other top drivers is not actually asking the team to bring him on. Very very short sighted in my opinion. If we're still talking about Senna-Prost it is in large part due to the rivalry. And an Alonso-Hamilton pairing is the only to come close to that since...
Short sighted. Despite every predictable problems it might bring...


I think the toxicity level by Alonso is 100% to on him. In 2007, he had some awful races too. Bahrain, Canada, Fuji, Spain.

In 2010, everyone keeps saying the botched pitstop was the reason he lost. He lost a place at the start to Button, and then he could not only not pass Petrov, he never had a genuine attempt. Pkus he had some horrible races in 2010 as well. Getting caught in a startline spin in Australia, jumping the start in China, crashing in Monaco practice, failing to qualify to q3 in Turkey, not giving the place back to Kubica in Silverstone, poor driving in Belgium.

2012, he drove well, gotta give credit to him, but squeezing Raikkonnen at the start really turned the momentum because the point deficit went to 4 points and Vettel took the lead after his Korean gp win. Not to mention, he drove really average at Brazil and only came to championship winning position when Hamilton and Hulkenburg crashed.

I think Alonso has become bitter that he will most likely be a driver who could have won more championships, but Vettel and Hamilton have pretty much put a stop to that. Alonso's look after Brazil 2012says it all.


In 2010 I think the strategy error gets mentioned because it was so obvious that Red Bull would split but I think his accidents get more mentions overall but if anything gets over mentioned it's not passing Petrov. No drs and on Bridgestones, rev limited V8's and a old Ferrari engine down on power because of losing one earlier in Malaysia and Lewis was stuck behind the other Renault at the same time so obviously the Renault's were good in a straigtline that day. Throwing it away by crashing isn't going to help him if later something happens upfront he'd be crucified but he did make one move trying to induce the error but none came.

I think he's bitter he never got given the quickest car for any sustained period despite sitting in the biggest teams. His career spans 3 dominant car periods which he never got to have so there's bound to be some bitterness there for sure.

He didn't get the level of cars that his talent deserved but maybe what his attitude deserved, you can't but help feel that some of his dilemma was self inflicted.


Nah, I've seen bad attitudes from drivers who got great cars, I don't think it works like that. He made a couple of poor decisions (Leaving McLaren and joining McHonda) and was unfortunate that engineers on other teams came up with things his didn't more often than not. He got a mass damper and a bespoke tyre supplier but that was it really.

Right places,wrong times. Dan seems to have similar going on but hopefully Renault deliver whatever they promised.

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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:20 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
He did in his first spell yeah.

He did but tried to take it back but Ron had already called Max. And Horner then tried to sign him for 2008, fully aware of his behaviour but he had different needs then so it was fine.

The doors are closed for Alonso in the same way they were for Lewis in 2012 at Red Bull and Ferrari. They're happy with the rooster they've got and don't want to deal with two of them because it causes problems. Horner isn't even going to put Sainz next to Max never mind someone like Alonso, they're going to go down the same path as Merc/Ferrari.

Alonso's problem ls he's too quick to provide a comfortable working relationship with another top driver. If he was slower and cuddly then sure he'd get put next to Seb,Lewis or Max but he's neither so he won't. And he's too old to be an attractive option for a swap so he is where he is.


I am not sure about that. The way he behaved in 2007. It is obvious he cannot compete with his team mate with equal status.


Was the only thing going on in 2007 the drivers having equal status?

For the drivers yes, Alonso was promised #1 status by Dennis which he got up until Monaco when Hamilton told the British press he was only the #2 driver despite the fact he was leading the WDC title race, the press turned on McLaren and then things changed to the annoyance of Alonso who felt betrayed by Dennis.


Right so there was more going on than just 2 drivers with equal status. Broken promises,suspicion over tampering and general mistrust being the most obvious.

And to be clear Alonso didn't kick off about the equal status being introduced until Lewis ignored an order in Hungary Q. That's when Alonso (over) reacted.

No it was basically just a power struggle over status within the team, tampering suspicions came much later in the season after Alonso tried to blackmail Dennis in Hungary again to make Hamilton the #2 driver, this event then re-triggered the spygate investigation, things then slowly unraveled between Alonso and Dennis were they basically became enemies and Alonso paranoid.

Hungary was just the outcome of a smoldering volcano were in the background Alonso was consistently politicking for McLaren to back one driver, himself, against the challenge from Ferrari.

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pokerman
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:29 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Thebusinessmuppet wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
People get to throw the toxic and failure words around with too much abandon.

Alonso could very well have 5 WDCs now. One in 2007 if not for Lewis' (and only later his own) antics. Another one in 2010 if not for a botched team strategy in the last race. And the last one in 2012 if not for Grosjean taking him out in Spa in the first corner...

What I am pointing to is that probably, had any of these very plausible alternative realities had come to pass, we'd all be looking at his personality in a different light. Who knows...

Still, it is a shame one of the other top drivers is not actually asking the team to bring him on. Very very short sighted in my opinion. If we're still talking about Senna-Prost it is in large part due to the rivalry. And an Alonso-Hamilton pairing is the only to come close to that since...
Short sighted. Despite every predictable problems it might bring...


I think the toxicity level by Alonso is 100% to on him. In 2007, he had some awful races too. Bahrain, Canada, Fuji, Spain.

In 2010, everyone keeps saying the botched pitstop was the reason he lost. He lost a place at the start to Button, and then he could not only not pass Petrov, he never had a genuine attempt. Pkus he had some horrible races in 2010 as well. Getting caught in a startline spin in Australia, jumping the start in China, crashing in Monaco practice, failing to qualify to q3 in Turkey, not giving the place back to Kubica in Silverstone, poor driving in Belgium.

2012, he drove well, gotta give credit to him, but squeezing Raikkonnen at the start really turned the momentum because the point deficit went to 4 points and Vettel took the lead after his Korean gp win. Not to mention, he drove really average at Brazil and only came to championship winning position when Hamilton and Hulkenburg crashed.

I think Alonso has become bitter that he will most likely be a driver who could have won more championships, but Vettel and Hamilton have pretty much put a stop to that. Alonso's look after Brazil 2012says it all.


In 2010 I think the strategy error gets mentioned because it was so obvious that Red Bull would split but I think his accidents get more mentions overall but if anything gets over mentioned it's not passing Petrov. No drs and on Bridgestones, rev limited V8's and a old Ferrari engine down on power because of losing one earlier in Malaysia and Lewis was stuck behind the other Renault at the same time so obviously the Renault's were good in a straigtline that day. Throwing it away by crashing isn't going to help him if later something happens upfront he'd be crucified but he did make one move trying to induce the error but none came.

I think he's bitter he never got given the quickest car for any sustained period despite sitting in the biggest teams. His career spans 3 dominant car periods which he never got to have so there's bound to be some bitterness there for sure.

He didn't get the level of cars that his talent deserved but maybe what his attitude deserved, you can't but help feel that some of his dilemma was self inflicted.


Nah, I've seen bad attitudes from drivers who got great cars, I don't think it works like that. He made a couple of poor decisions (Leaving McLaren and joining McHonda) and was unfortunate that engineers on other teams came up with things his didn't more often than not. He got a mass damper and a bespoke tyre supplier but that was it really.

Right places,wrong times. Dan seems to have similar going on but hopefully Renault deliver whatever they promised.

I think Ricciardo is slightly different in that he's never been given a WDC capable car in the first place to throw it away, also he was up against a driver that for the most part had the beating of him.

So I look at them differently, Alonso would have won more titles if he had done things differently, whereas if Red Bull win titles a few years down the line I wouldn't necessarily be thinking that should have been Ricciardo winning those titles.

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Lotus49
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
quote]

I am not sure about that. The way he behaved in 2007. It is obvious he cannot compete with his team mate with equal status.


Was the only thing going on in 2007 the drivers having equal status?

For the drivers yes, Alonso was promised #1 status by Dennis which he got up until Monaco when Hamilton told the British press he was only the #2 driver despite the fact he was leading the WDC title race, the press turned on McLaren and then things changed to the annoyance of Alonso who felt betrayed by Dennis.


Right so there was more going on than just 2 drivers with equal status. Broken promises,suspicion over tampering and general mistrust being the most obvious.

And to be clear Alonso didn't kick off about the equal status being introduced until Lewis ignored an order in Hungary Q. That's when Alonso (over) reacted.

No it was basically just a power struggle over status within the team, tampering suspicions came much later in the season after Alonso tried to blackmail Dennis in Hungary again to make Hamilton the #2 driver, this event then re-triggered the spygate investigation, things then slowly unraveled between Alonso and Dennis were they basically became enemies and Alonso paranoid.

Hungary was just the outcome of a smoldering volcano were in the background Alonso was consistently politicking for McLaren to back one driver, himself, against the challenge from Ferrari.


What do you mean,no? You just listed plenty of things going on outside of just competing on equal terms to his team mate and those things are obviously going to effect his behaviour.

Hungary was played out for the world to see. I'm not excusing Alonso, it's just a fact it was a reaction to what Lewis did.

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Lotus49
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Thebusinessmuppet wrote:

I think the toxicity level by Alonso is 100% to on him. In 2007, he had some awful races too. Bahrain, Canada, Fuji, Spain.

In 2010, everyone keeps saying the botched pitstop was the reason he lost. He lost a place at the start to Button, and then he could not only not pass Petrov, he never had a genuine attempt. Pkus he had some horrible races in 2010 as well. Getting caught in a startline spin in Australia, jumping the start in China, crashing in Monaco practice, failing to qualify to q3 in Turkey, not giving the place back to Kubica in Silverstone, poor driving in Belgium.

2012, he drove well, gotta give credit to him, but squeezing Raikkonnen at the start really turned the momentum because the point deficit went to 4 points and Vettel took the lead after his Korean gp win. Not to mention, he drove really average at Brazil and only came to championship winning position when Hamilton and Hulkenburg crashed.

I think Alonso has become bitter that he will most likely be a driver who could have won more championships, but Vettel and Hamilton have pretty much put a stop to that. Alonso's look after Brazil 2012says it all.


In 2010 I think the strategy error gets mentioned because it was so obvious that Red Bull would split but I think his accidents get more mentions overall but if anything gets over mentioned it's not passing Petrov. No drs and on Bridgestones, rev limited V8's and a old Ferrari engine down on power because of losing one earlier in Malaysia and Lewis was stuck behind the other Renault at the same time so obviously the Renault's were good in a straigtline that day. Throwing it away by crashing isn't going to help him if later something happens upfront he'd be crucified but he did make one move trying to induce the error but none came.

I think he's bitter he never got given the quickest car for any sustained period despite sitting in the biggest teams. His career spans 3 dominant car periods which he never got to have so there's bound to be some bitterness there for sure.

He didn't get the level of cars that his talent deserved but maybe what his attitude deserved, you can't but help feel that some of his dilemma was self inflicted.


Nah, I've seen bad attitudes from drivers who got great cars, I don't think it works like that. He made a couple of poor decisions (Leaving McLaren and joining McHonda) and was unfortunate that engineers on other teams came up with things his didn't more often than not. He got a mass damper and a bespoke tyre supplier but that was it really.

Right places,wrong times. Dan seems to have similar going on but hopefully Renault deliver whatever they promised.

I think Ricciardo is slightly different in that he's never been given a WDC capable car in the first place to throw it away, also he was up against a driver that for the most part had the beating of him.

So I look at them differently, Alonso would have won more titles if he had done things differently, whereas if Red Bull win titles a few years down the line I wouldn't necessarily be thinking that should have been Ricciardo winning those titles.


I just meant he's got a similar feeling of right place wrong time about him rather than them having carbon copy careers at every step.

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Zoue
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I thought this was all on record that Dennis panicked and phoned Mosley to tell him what Alonso had threatened, this reopened the spygate investigation were Alonso's emails were used as evidence against McLaren.

It is. The blackmail part was never actually proven, though

So why the need for Dennis to phone Mosley, in what context did Alonso feel the need to tell Dennis about the emails given that Alonso was in a rage at the time, was it not reported he kicked down the door to Dennis' office?

Look, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just pointing out that strictly from a factual viewpoint none of the above was ever proven and the waters were muddied when RD denied Alonso ever tried to blackmail him.

It seems even when trying to avoid controversy it bites you in the pickle. Can't win!

When did Dennis say this, when he re-signed Alonso for 2015?

can't remember, tbh. Not really relevant, though. He could have been telling the truth, or he could have been saying so for legal or PR reasons. We'll never know, I guess.

I think we're losing sight of the fact that I wrote it the way I did as a kind of legal disclaimer. I wanted to avoid people saying "oh prove he was blackmailing" and derailing the thread (fat chance). I know the stories!
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Black_Flag_11
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:05 pm 
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The later into the day this announcement gets the more its looking like Indycar IMO. It's currently 3/4pm in Europe, I would have expected the announcement to have come by now its like they're waiting for US business hours. Its 10am in New York and 7am in LA.

On the other hand it could turn out to be something like a new Kimoa range or something to do with his museum/karting school :lol:
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rodH
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
I wouldn't put it past Alonso to having been instrumental in getting Trulli sacked in 2004 while trailing him in the points...


Actually, Alonso shot Kennedy. They just figured it out
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tootsie323
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:38 pm 
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rodH wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I wouldn't put it past Alonso to having been instrumental in getting Trulli sacked in 2004 while trailing him in the points...

Actually, Alonso shot Kennedy. They just figured it out

That explains the Brazil GP picture...

Image
Source: http://www.correiodopovo.com.br/blogs/pitlane/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/alonso-640x427.jpg

Aah... another grassy knoll...

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mcdo
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:49 pm 
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Any rumours on what his big announcement is today? IndyCar made reference to his announcement, which has their fans in a tizzy. The day has finally arrived and everyone is just sitting around waiting to hear what it is

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Lotus49
 Post subject: Re: Should Alonso go?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:02 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Any rumours on what his big announcement is today? IndyCar made reference to his announcement, which has their fans in a tizzy. The day has finally arrived and everyone is just sitting around waiting to hear what it is


I've heard two but can't speak to their validity.

1. Staying at McLaren next year but missing Australia to do WEC and Monaco to do the Indy500 with McLaren and Andretti again.

2. Moving to Indy full time with or without McLaren.

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