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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Salvadoray wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/45000927

Nothing else to add.


Mercedes are probably happy to see they have the perfect No.2 driver.

If Leclerc joins Ferrari next year, it may finally be difficult for Mercedes to win the Manufacturer's World Championship.
Margins over the last 4 years were - 296, 275, 297, 146.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:45 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Bottas onboard has become the best kept secret of F1. They dd not include it in the"Hungarian GP onboards" video.


Unfortunately the director didn't react quick enough.

He had the rear facing camera for Bottas and the onboard for Vettel, which should have been switched immediately Vettel went past Bottas.

So they don't have the onboard from Bottas.
That's what we saw, but I doubt the forward facing camera footage isn't there somewhere. As the Lt said, the best kept secret.


You don't get, each cars camera switches between front facing or rear facing at anytime, any skyf1 subscriber will tell you this as you can ride onboard with any driver you want and once the camera switches its what you get in real time, so it's not that they don't want to show it, they don't have it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
Fiki wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
No one seems to be commenting on the Ricciardo incident in the same way they are the Vettel one. Now although I do see Bottas as at fault and have no issue with the penalty, it was clear Bottas was going to understeer (Horner said it as they approached the corner talking to the Sky commentators) and it was also clear Dan was going to get past before the end of the race; why didn't he make sure he didn't put himself in a potentially race ending accident?
If you defend the inside approaching the corner, than you are expected to stay on the inside - at least to the apex. Bottas was the only one who knew how much grip he had, and Ricciardo left him more room than needed or required. What is there to discuss?


Why didn't Ricciardo leave more space? Christian Horner seen it coming, I'm a pleb and I seen it coming, surely Ricciardo should have seen it coming?

Zero 'official' blame for Ricciardio from an FIA perspective of course, but as a racing driver I'd expect him to find the best way around the track.


Ricciardo left more than enough room - more room than he often has for overtakes (yet generally makes them stick) - and that's going faster than the car on the outside while taking the inside line. The fact that Bottas kept going into Daniel despite the latter being faster (and making the braking stick) makes it clear that Bottas overreached himself and stuffed up. Probably due to tyres being stuffed - but then as a professional driver - he should have known that and adjusted - otherwise he'd have gone off laps earlier on his own by out braking himself.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Bottas onboard has become the best kept secret of F1. They dd not include it in the"Hungarian GP onboards" video.


Unfortunately the director didn't react quick enough.

He had the rear facing camera for Bottas and the onboard for Vettel, which should have been switched immediately Vettel went past Bottas.

So they don't have the onboard from Bottas.
That's what we saw, but I doubt the forward facing camera footage isn't there somewhere. As the Lt said, the best kept secret.


You don't get, each cars camera switches between front facing or rear facing at anytime, any skyf1 subscriber will tell you this as you can ride onboard with any driver you want and once the camera switches its what you get in real time, so it's not that they don't want to show it, they don't have it.

I don't think that would be the case. Even if one switches between the front and rear camera for live viewing, there would always be recording happening from both.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:51 pm 
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robins13 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Bottas onboard has become the best kept secret of F1. They dd not include it in the"Hungarian GP onboards" video.


Unfortunately the director didn't react quick enough.

He had the rear facing camera for Bottas and the onboard for Vettel, which should have been switched immediately Vettel went past Bottas.

So they don't have the onboard from Bottas.
That's what we saw, but I doubt the forward facing camera footage isn't there somewhere. As the Lt said, the best kept secret.


You don't get, each cars camera switches between front facing or rear facing at anytime, any skyf1 subscriber will tell you this as you can ride onboard with any driver you want and once the camera switches its what you get in real time, so it's not that they don't want to show it, they don't have it.

I don't think that would be the case. Even if one switches between the front and rear camera for live viewing, there would always be recording happening from both.

If there is a single unit for encoding/transmission of onboard cameras on each car and the multiple cameras are routed to that unit with a remote switch between cameras then it is quite conceivable that there is only a single steam of video recorded at any one time from the front and rear cameras. Implementing some sort of blackbox style onboard recording/storage for every camera might be possible but could be considered not worthwhile.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:

This wasn't a racing incident, this was a driver causing an accident.

Any racing driver or even a sim racer will tell you Bottas wasn't making that corner from the line he was on without using Vettels car as his brake.


Any racing driver? This is evidently wrong as you can see per reasoning by the stewarts (including a former racing driver ;-)) claiming both were at fault: Bottas should have braked earlier and Vettel should have left more room. Furthermore, several ex-drivers-now-commentators/experts have said similar stuff. So your claim "any racing driver ..." is plainly and simply wrong.

I am fully d'accord that there can be different opinions on this incident. And most people accept that. But you are continuously arguing as if there can be only one "right" take on it and all other is "nonsense" etc.


Now the ex racers are right, but were wrong in France when Vettel was given a 5s penalty and people thought it should have been more.

Why should Vettel leave more room really? the rule states side by side you leave a cars width, not for a car behind you.

Was Bottas actually fully behind Vettel?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:01 pm 
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Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
Does that rule applies to Vettel only and nobody else? Just saying cause I believe we've seen plenty of overtakes completed on the straits where the car on the outside then didnt leave a car-width space on the upcoming turn. I dont see why Vettel should be held partly responsible for Bottas' late-breaking.

Vettel wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was. It's really that simple. It was also totally unnecessary. He could have left room and still made the pass.

By the same token in Bahrein 2016, Hamilton "wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was".

You`d probably come up repeating the same excuse that Hamilton wasnt overtaking whilst Vettel was, but that isnt valid because:
Vettel was completely ahead of Bottas before they even got to the corner (the same as Hamilton was ahead of Bottas) and I dont see why it should matter whether one completed his overtake on the strait before the corner (Vettel), or if it was given via grid position on the starting line (Hamilton). Bottom line and the only relevant thing here is that, by the time both Hamilton and Vettel entered the breaking area for the corner, they were considerably ahead of Bottas and had earned the right to pick the line of their choosing.
You could probably say that what Vettel did is not allowed for 2:10pm held race, but its perfectly ok if the race started at 1:00pm and it would make as much sense.

No sorry that's incorrect. The fact that Hamilton was ahead in the 2016 example you're using isn't an excuse. It's an important fact to consider. A change of position is an important element in the Vettel/Bottas incident. It matters. When overtaking another car for position, you have to cleanly establish that position. Vettel got it a bit wrong there by being too aggressive. Bottas got it a bit wrong for the same reason.

Vettel too was ahead of Bottas on the run in to the corner, as much as Hamilton was, if not more. And that is an equally important factor that you keep ignoring.
There is no such rule that when you complete the overtake on another car on the strait, you`d always have to leave room on the following corner regardless.

When Hamilton turned into the corner there was no overlap, if there was no overlap between Bottas and Vettel then you have a like for like comparison, the fact that I'm asking about the second part questions the first part of your post.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:02 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
First time I've heard that you have to leave room for a car that you have already passed.
Can anyone point to that rule?

Was he fully past?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Bottas onboard has become the best kept secret of F1. They dd not include it in the"Hungarian GP onboards" video.

Yeah without that we are punching in the dark a bit.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Salvadoray wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/45000927

Nothing else to add.

Apart from Vettel was just about fully ahead, Vettel could have left more room and Vettel closed the door and could have been more cautious, which is basically what has been said that Vettel took more risk than he needed to, as for Bottas the stewards did say he was overly aggressive, I would say both drivers were as did the stewards.

The Bottas onboard would have been key to see how fair Bottas was, the stewards who we assume have more tools at their disposal didn't see it as an out and out punt by Bottas.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
Quote from vettel regarding contact

“Obviously I felt all of a sudden that I got hit from behind,” said Vettel. “I think for him there wasn’t really anywhere to go. I don’t blame him.”

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/7/i-don_t-blame-bottas-for-collision--vettel.html

Vettel also said he only looked in his mirror after the shunt to see were Bottas was so when he turned in did he guess that he had cleared Bottas?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:18 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Salvadoray wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/45000927

Nothing else to add.


Mercedes are probably happy to see they have the perfect No.2 driver.

If Leclerc joins Ferrari next year, it may finally be difficult for Mercedes to win the Manufacturer's World Championship.
Margins over the last 4 years were - 296, 275, 297, 146.

It's clearly nip and tuck this year, Kimi has had podiums in the last 5 races, this is one reason why it's looking like Ferrari will retain him.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
First time I've heard that you have to leave room for a car that you have already passed.
Can anyone point to that rule?

Was he fully past?

Image

This picture suggest that he was fully past. And that just before the breaking zone for that corner (you can see the DRS open on Vettel's car). Also the point of impact (the back of Vettel's car) suggests that Vettel kept being about a car length ahead throughout.
As a minimum, starting from the run in into that corner, Bottas NEVER had any "meaningful" part of his car alongside Vettel's in order to be entitled space on the inside of the turn in.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Quote from vettel regarding contact

“Obviously I felt all of a sudden that I got hit from behind,” said Vettel. “I think for him there wasn’t really anywhere to go. I don’t blame him.”

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/7/i-don_t-blame-bottas-for-collision--vettel.html

Vettel also said he only looked in his mirror after the shunt to see were Bottas was so when he turned in did he guess that he had cleared Bottas?

I remember Anthony Davidson showing it on the sky pad, showed that Vettel was looking in his mirror on the way down to T2 and then about 100 metres before the corner looked away, Bottas' car isn't in shot but from the off board this would appear to be from the point he got pretty much fully past. In the image above it appears he is looking in his left mirror still. He obviously just expected Bottas to back out of it.


Last edited by Black_Flag_11 on Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:38 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
First time I've heard that you have to leave room for a car that you have already passed.
Can anyone point to that rule?

Was he fully past?

Image

This picture suggest that he was fully past. And that just before the breaking zone for that corner (you can see the DRS open on Vettel's car). Also the point of impact (the back of Vettel's car) suggests that Vettel kept being about a car length ahead throughout.
As a minimum, starting from the run in into that corner, Bottas NEVER had any "meaningful" part of his car alongside Vettel's in order to be entitled space on the inside of the turn in.

Pictures from an angle can be deceiving plus screenshots in particular, that in particular doesn't look good for Bottas, still I say shame about Bottas' missing onboard.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Quote from vettel regarding contact

“Obviously I felt all of a sudden that I got hit from behind,” said Vettel. “I think for him there wasn’t really anywhere to go. I don’t blame him.”

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/7/i-don_t-blame-bottas-for-collision--vettel.html

Vettel also said he only looked in his mirror after the shunt to see were Bottas was so when he turned in did he guess that he had cleared Bottas?

I remember Anthony Davidson showing it on the sky pad, showed that Vettel was looking in his mirror on the way down to T2 and then about 100 metres before the corner looked away, Bottas' car isn't in shot but from the off board this would appear to be from the point he got pretty much fully past. In the image above it appears he is looking in his left mirror still. He obviously just expected Bottas to back out of it.

Sort of not looking good for Bottas, I wonder what the stewards saw?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Quote from vettel regarding contact

“Obviously I felt all of a sudden that I got hit from behind,” said Vettel. “I think for him there wasn’t really anywhere to go. I don’t blame him.”

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/7/i-don_t-blame-bottas-for-collision--vettel.html

Vettel also said he only looked in his mirror after the shunt to see were Bottas was so when he turned in did he guess that he had cleared Bottas?

I remember Anthony Davidson showing it on the sky pad, showed that Vettel was looking in his mirror on the way down to T2 and then about 100 metres before the corner looked away, Bottas' car isn't in shot but from the off board this would appear to be from the point he got pretty much fully past. In the image above it appears he is looking in his left mirror still. He obviously just expected Bottas to back out of it.

Sort of not looking good for Bottas, I wonder what the stewards saw?

It's such a tough one to call, I went from thinking Vettel was mostly at fault initially to 50/50 and now more or less agreeing with Palmer and thinking Bottas is mostly at fault. Bottas' on-board would help clear things up but whether we ever get to see it I don't know.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:51 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Quote from vettel regarding contact

“Obviously I felt all of a sudden that I got hit from behind,” said Vettel. “I think for him there wasn’t really anywhere to go. I don’t blame him.”

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/7/i-don_t-blame-bottas-for-collision--vettel.html

Vettel also said he only looked in his mirror after the shunt to see were Bottas was so when he turned in did he guess that he had cleared Bottas?

I remember Anthony Davidson showing it on the sky pad, showed that Vettel was looking in his mirror on the way down to T2 and then about 100 metres before the corner looked away, Bottas' car isn't in shot but from the off board this would appear to be from the point he got pretty much fully past. In the image above it appears he is looking in his left mirror still. He obviously just expected Bottas to back out of it.

Sort of not looking good for Bottas, I wonder what the stewards saw?

It's such a tough one to call, I went from thinking Vettel was mostly at fault initially to 50/50 and now more or less agreeing with Palmer and thinking Bottas is mostly at fault. Bottas' on-board would help clear things up but whether we ever get to see it I don't know.

Yeah that's the problem we just don't have all the info and angles the stewards do, Bottas at the end with the Ricciardo incident did look like he'd lost his head a bit.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
First time I've heard that you have to leave room for a car that you have already passed.
Can anyone point to that rule?

Was he fully past?

Image

This picture suggest that he was fully past. And that just before the breaking zone for that corner (you can see the DRS open on Vettel's car). Also the point of impact (the back of Vettel's car) suggests that Vettel kept being about a car length ahead throughout.
As a minimum, starting from the run in into that corner, Bottas NEVER had any "meaningful" part of his car alongside Vettel's in order to be entitled space on the inside of the turn in.

Pictures from an angle can be deceiving plus screenshots in particular, that in particular doesn't look good for Bottas, still I say shame about Bottas' missing onboard.


The black line is about right since it is represents the extension of the shadow from the back wheel of Vettel's car. It's pretty much obvious that the Ferrari is a full length ahead of the Merc.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:54 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
First time I've heard that you have to leave room for a car that you have already passed.
Can anyone point to that rule?

Was he fully past?

Image

This picture suggest that he was fully past. And that just before the breaking zone for that corner (you can see the DRS open on Vettel's car). Also the point of impact (the back of Vettel's car) suggests that Vettel kept being about a car length ahead throughout.
As a minimum, starting from the run in into that corner, Bottas NEVER had any "meaningful" part of his car alongside Vettel's in order to be entitled space on the inside of the turn in.

Pictures from an angle can be deceiving plus screenshots in particular, that in particular doesn't look good for Bottas, still I say shame about Bottas' missing onboard.


The black line is about right since it is represents the extension of the shadow from the back wheel of Vettel's car. It's pretty much obvious that the Ferrari is a full length ahead of the Merc.


It's the post truth world, don't believe what you can see with your eyes, just listen to what people with like minds say.

Had he taken Vettel out of the race like Palmer said the fallout would have been heavy and doubt the stewards would have come up with the excuse they did.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Rockie wrote:

It's the post truth world, don't believe what you can see with your eyes, just listen to what people with like minds say.

Had he taken Vettel out of the race like Palmer said the fallout would have been heavy and doubt the stewards would have come up with the excuse they did.


You doubt it, but whiting knows far more than you about how the stewards decide things, and he said that it is very likely that if Vettel had suffered a puncture, the decision won't have been any difference. I don't know why we are trying to find all this evidence. The stewards have all they need and with that, have decided that both were at fault, with neither being predominantly to blame. It just seems you are determined to blame Bottas.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Was he fully past?

Image

This picture suggest that he was fully past. And that just before the breaking zone for that corner (you can see the DRS open on Vettel's car). Also the point of impact (the back of Vettel's car) suggests that Vettel kept being about a car length ahead throughout.
As a minimum, starting from the run in into that corner, Bottas NEVER had any "meaningful" part of his car alongside Vettel's in order to be entitled space on the inside of the turn in.

Pictures from an angle can be deceiving plus screenshots in particular, that in particular doesn't look good for Bottas, still I say shame about Bottas' missing onboard.


The black line is about right since it is represents the extension of the shadow from the back wheel of Vettel's car. It's pretty much obvious that the Ferrari is a full length ahead of the Merc.


It's the post truth world, don't believe what you can see with your eyes, just listen to what people with like minds say.

Had he taken Vettel out of the race like Palmer said the fallout would have been heavy and doubt the stewards would have come up with the excuse they did.

Vettel was clearly completely past Bottas. Otherwise the front right side of Bottas' wing would have been clipped. It's pretty obvious what happened... Vettel got by Bottas near the apex and cut over as soon as he could. Bottas couldn't quite make the apex due to his tires, locked up, slid and broke the left part of his front wing on Vettel's car.

It's rather hypocritical that a lot of Hamilton's biggest supporters are the ones questioning why Vettel didn't leave space, even after clearing Bottas.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Gumption wrote:
Vettel was clearly completely past Bottas. Otherwise the front right side of Bottas' wing would have been clipped. It's pretty obvious what happened... Vettel got by Bottas near the apex and cut over as soon as he could. Bottas couldn't quite make the apex due to his tires, locked up, slid and broke the left part of his front wing on Vettel's car.

It's rather hypocritical that a lot of Hamilton's biggest supporters are the ones questioning why Vettel didn't leave space, even after clearing Bottas.


Not that I think Bottas was completely innocent here, however

http://e2.365dm.com/18/07/16-9/20/skysp ... 0729174619

tells me that you seem to have mixed up your left and right.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:06 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Gumption wrote:
Vettel was clearly completely past Bottas. Otherwise the front right side of Bottas' wing would have been clipped. It's pretty obvious what happened... Vettel got by Bottas near the apex and cut over as soon as he could. Bottas couldn't quite make the apex due to his tires, locked up, slid and broke the left part of his front wing on Vettel's car.

It's rather hypocritical that a lot of Hamilton's biggest supporters are the ones questioning why Vettel didn't leave space, even after clearing Bottas.


Not that I think Bottas was completely innocent here, however

http://e2.365dm.com/18/07/16-9/20/skysp ... 0729174619

tells me that you seem to have mixed up your left and right.

Good catch... I only saw it live so it's been a few days.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Gumption wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
Image

This picture suggest that he was fully past. And that just before the breaking zone for that corner (you can see the DRS open on Vettel's car). Also the point of impact (the back of Vettel's car) suggests that Vettel kept being about a car length ahead throughout.
As a minimum, starting from the run in into that corner, Bottas NEVER had any "meaningful" part of his car alongside Vettel's in order to be entitled space on the inside of the turn in.

Pictures from an angle can be deceiving plus screenshots in particular, that in particular doesn't look good for Bottas, still I say shame about Bottas' missing onboard.


The black line is about right since it is represents the extension of the shadow from the back wheel of Vettel's car. It's pretty much obvious that the Ferrari is a full length ahead of the Merc.


It's the post truth world, don't believe what you can see with your eyes, just listen to what people with like minds say.

Had he taken Vettel out of the race like Palmer said the fallout would have been heavy and doubt the stewards would have come up with the excuse they did.

Vettel was clearly completely past Bottas. Otherwise the front right side of Bottas' wing would have been clipped. It's pretty obvious what happened... Vettel got by Bottas near the apex and cut over as soon as he could. Bottas couldn't quite make the apex due to his tires, locked up, slid and broke the left part of his front wing on Vettel's car.

It's rather hypocritical that a lot of Hamilton's biggest supporters are the ones questioning why Vettel didn't leave space, even after clearing Bottas.

You could change quite a few things here. It was the right side of Bottas's wing that got damaged. This does mean that at the stage Vettel turned in, Bottas was partially alongside, but yes, barely.
Vettel may have just about cleared Bottas, but if that was the case, I think it was just before the corner. When they got closer to the corner, I think Bottas was still partially there. It was at this point that I think Vettel could have gone a bit wider. Yes, Bottas was optimistic, but Vettel was IMO a little too overconfident that the overtake had worked. Also witht he part you saying Bottas couldn't make the apex, Vettel doing what Bottas probably didn't expect caused Bottas to change his line. With that, he had to choose to go onto the kerb. He may not have locked up or gone very wide at all if Vettel had just given him that tiny bit more room. We just can't tell. All we know is that the stewards are in charge and they will have more evidence than us. And they decided that both could have done better and didn't blame one more over the other.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:18 pm 
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While I think Bottas was never making that corner in any great shape, Vettel seems to be growing a tendency to try and 'stamp' the overtake on the driver he is passing when trying to make a point/getting frustrated in recent times. I recall him doing something similar to Max at Silverstone, and certainly to Lewis in Austria this year.

Seems to be a growing trend.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:37 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
While I think Bottas was never making that corner in any great shape, Vettel seems to be growing a tendency to try and 'stamp' the overtake on the driver he is passing when trying to make a point/getting frustrated in recent times. I recall him doing something similar to Max at Silverstone, and certainly to Lewis in Austria this year.

Seems to be a growing trend.

True Lewis in Austria is a good example. On the one hand it makes sense, it's so rare for the top 3 teams to be able to overtake each other that when the opportunity comes along you don't want let it slip away, on the other hand it leaves no margin for error for either driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:02 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:

It's the post truth world, don't believe what you can see with your eyes, just listen to what people with like minds say.

Had he taken Vettel out of the race like Palmer said the fallout would have been heavy and doubt the stewards would have come up with the excuse they did.


You doubt it, but whiting knows far more than you about how the stewards decide things, and he said that it is very likely that if Vettel had suffered a puncture, the decision won't have been any difference. I don't know why we are trying to find all this evidence. The stewards have all they need and with that, have decided that both were at fault, with neither being predominantly to blame. It just seems you are determined to blame Bottas.


Charlie is just giving his opinion as Martin Brundle did during the race, same way he gives his opinion to teams like he gave the ok for the illegal tyre test by Mercedes.

We have seen him give the ok on stuff and the decision has gone the other way.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
While I think Bottas was never making that corner in any great shape, Vettel seems to be growing a tendency to try and 'stamp' the overtake on the driver he is passing when trying to make a point/getting frustrated in recent times. I recall him doing something similar to Max at Silverstone, and certainly to Lewis in Austria this year.

Seems to be a growing trend.


Against Lewis in Austria he wasn't making a point, he was preventing a cut back from Lewis.

It's astonishing you could not figure that out even the Hamilton apologist Brundle described it as a masterclass by Vettel.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:27 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Quote from vettel regarding contact

“Obviously I felt all of a sudden that I got hit from behind,” said Vettel. “I think for him there wasn’t really anywhere to go. I don’t blame him.”

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/7/i-don_t-blame-bottas-for-collision--vettel.html

Vettel also said he only looked in his mirror after the shunt to see were Bottas was so when he turned in did he guess that he had cleared Bottas?

I remember Anthony Davidson showing it on the sky pad, showed that Vettel was looking in his mirror on the way down to T2 and then about 100 metres before the corner looked away, Bottas' car isn't in shot but from the off board this would appear to be from the point he got pretty much fully past. In the image above it appears he is looking in his left mirror still. He obviously just expected Bottas to back out of it.

Sort of not looking good for Bottas, I wonder what the stewards saw?

It's such a tough one to call, I went from thinking Vettel was mostly at fault initially to 50/50 and now more or less agreeing with Palmer and thinking Bottas is mostly at fault. Bottas' on-board would help clear things up but whether we ever get to see it I don't know.


an actual video of the incident instead of these horrible screen shots is a better source of evidence for such a discussion


Source https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SesmGLiTjVE


Only Onboards I found (Bottas is only rear facing smfh)


Source https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9b1TFfzH2M

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:41 am 
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Mayhem wrote:

an actual video of the incident instead of these horrible screen shots is a better source of evidence for such a discussion


Yeah. Same, Vettel is clearly a car length ahead of Bottas prior to the contact. Watch from the 0:16 and look at the distance between the shadows cast by Vettel's back wheel and the Bottas' front.

And from Kimi's camera view. Freeze at 0:48.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:33 am 
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Prema wrote:
Mayhem wrote:

an actual video of the incident instead of these horrible screen shots is a better source of evidence for such a discussion


Yeah. Same, Vettel is clearly a car length ahead of Bottas prior to the contact. Watch from the 0:16 and look at the distance between the shadows cast by Vettel's back wheel and the Bottas' front.

And from Kimi's camera view. Freeze at 0:48.

I'm not sure where their cars were exactly enough to state if or if not he was fully ahead, but if you're basing this off the wheel shadows then you're ignoring the front and rear bits of the car that go past the wheels!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:46 am 
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From what I can see at no point was Vettel fully ahead.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:24 am 
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Clarky wrote:
From what I can see at no point was Vettel fully ahead.


I agree. I can't see any point where Vettel is fully clear of Valtteri.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:24 am 
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My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:51 am 
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kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:58 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Clarky wrote:
From what I can see at no point was Vettel fully ahead.


I agree. I can't see any point where Vettel is fully clear of Valtteri.


Should have gone to Specsavers :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:02 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.


Smh Vettel maintained the same trajectory neither was on the racing line, and there are different lines through that corner none from where Bottas was.

Also we saw last year when Max tried to pull of such against Dan how that ended up, glad Vettel turned in early as Bottas was going to spear into his sidepod.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:45 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
From what I can see at no point was Vettel fully ahead.

If you take the front end, probably he was or maybe he wasnt. As a bare minimum, Vettel still was more than substantially ahead to pick the trajectory he wanted, more so than (example):

1. A Hamilton's blocking move on Hulkemberg on a strait without being fully ahead, which forced Hulk to lift/break earlier.
2. Hamilton's blocking move on Vettel on a race start albeit Vettel being half-car length alongside Hamilton's, which forced Vettel to go 2 wheel outside of the track.
Both of these happen on the last 2 years (just cant remember the exact track, but I can look it up if really needed) and no incident occurred because the driver marginally behind paid enough attention.

In a corner, the driver substantially behind (Bottas in this case) is A LOT more obliged to make sure he doesnt crash on the side (or on the back would be more appropriate in this case) of the car in front, in comparison with the 2 examples I posted above happening in the strait. Hence, Bottas is the only one to blame for what happen.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:47 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.


Smh Vettel maintained the same trajectory neither was on the racing line, and there are different lines through that corner none from where Bottas was.

Also we saw last year when Max tried to pull of such against Dan how that ended up, glad Vettel turned in early as Bottas was going to spear into his sidepod.

That's my impression too.


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