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Which driver won each intra-team battle in Germany?
Poll ended at Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:19 am
Hamilton 11%  11%  [ 37 ]
Bottas 1%  1%  [ 5 ]
Vettel 2%  2%  [ 6 ]
Raikkonen 11%  11%  [ 37 ]
Ricciardo 1%  1%  [ 4 ]
Verstappen 9%  9%  [ 33 ]
Perez 4%  4%  [ 15 ]
Ocon 4%  4%  [ 15 ]
Stroll 2%  2%  [ 6 ]
Sirotkin 6%  6%  [ 21 ]
Sainz 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Hulkenberg 10%  10%  [ 36 ]
Gasly 1%  1%  [ 5 ]
Hartley 7%  7%  [ 24 ]
Grosjean 7%  7%  [ 23 ]
Magnussen 3%  3%  [ 10 ]
Alonso 10%  10%  [ 34 ]
Vandoorne 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Ericsson 8%  8%  [ 27 ]
Leclerc 2%  2%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 348
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:19 am 
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As always, let's start with the result from the previous race...

Image

And the standings for 2018 after ten races (percentages in brackets):

Hamilton 7-3 Bottas (58/42)
Vettel 7-3 Raikkonen (63/37)
Ricciardo 5-5 Verstappen (57/43)
Perez 4-6 Ocon (50/50)
Stroll 7-3 Sirotkin (68/32)
Hulkenberg 6-4 Sainz (57/43)
Gasly 7-3 Hartley (70/30)
Magnussen 8-2 Grosjean (80/20)
Alonso 9-1 Vandoorne (91/9)
Ericsson 3-7 Leclerc (30/70)

- Both of the two main WDC protagonists extend their advantage to 7-3, with Vettel's percentage lead ever-so-slightly ahead of Hamilton's. For Lewis, it was a third successive TMW win, while Seb prevented Kimi from scoring a third successive victory of his own.
- A fourth TMW victory in a row for Max Verstappen allows him to level the season tally with Ricciardo, although he still trails slightly in terms of percentage. However, the momentum appears to have shifted significantly towards the Dutchman in recent weeks.
- An interesting situation at Force India where victory for Esteban Ocon gives him a 6-4 lead for the year, yet in terms of percentage the two drivers are almost identical. To be precise, Ocon has received 50.16% of the vote. Or to put it another way, there have been 305 votes cast for the Force India drivers; Ocon has 153 while Perez has 152! This was also the first occasion either FI driver has received no votes.
- Lance Stroll continues to stretch his legs against Sergey Sirotkin, opening up a gap of four.
- At Renault, Nico Hulkenberg's return to form denies Carlos Sainz the opportunity to pull level for the first time in 2018, continuing a pattern for the year. Since opening up a 3-0 lead at the start of the season, whenever Sainz has managed to reduce that gap to a single TMW victory, Hulkenberg has won the vote at the next race to stay ahead.
- Gasly 'beats' Hartley to make it 7-3 at Toro Rosso. I use that term loosely given the circumstances. Amusingly, two people actually voted for Hartley despite the fact he retired at the end of the only lap he completed during qualifying or the race, but to each their own...
- Another crushing victory for Kevin Magnussen makes it 8-2 at Haas, which remains the second most lopsided TMW vote of 2018.
- That's because at McLaren, Fernando Alonso continues to absolutely decimate Stoffel Vandoorne. It's now 9-1 after Alonso claimed his second whitewash of 2018. At this rate this particular TMW could be done and dusted after the Hungarian vote is closed.
- Meanwhile at Sauber, it's now seven TMW wins in a row for Charles Leclerc. Just 14 votes for Marcus Ericsson over that period, while Leclerc has now equalled Fernando Alonso by putting together a seven race TMW winning streak, edging ahead of Kevin Magnussen and Seb Vettel, who both strung together six TMW wins in a row.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:31 am 
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It's interesting in a season were Hamilton is seen to be performing indifferently, his gap to Bottas is similar to Vettel's gap to Kimi.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:36 am 
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pokerman wrote:
It's interesting in a season were Hamilton is seen to be performing indifferently, his gap to Bottas is similar to Vettel's gap to Kimi.


That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:28 pm 
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Some difficult decisions this time because the rain changed some performances massively.

Ferrari: I give this to Vettel. Not only was he dominating Räikkönen up to his disastrous mistake, also KR was disappointing in the wet part as well.

Sauber: Leclerc was lightyears faster than Ericsson all weekend - but the latter kept it clean under wet conditions and scored.

Haas: very similar. Magnussen had control over Grosjean in qualifying and for most of the race - but the latter turned it around in the wet ...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's interesting in a season were Hamilton is seen to be performing indifferently, his gap to Bottas is similar to Vettel's gap to Kimi.


That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.

What does that even mean? On what planet is Vettel's performance ahead of Hamilton this season?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's interesting in a season were Hamilton is seen to be performing indifferently, his gap to Bottas is similar to Vettel's gap to Kimi.


That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.

I'm going by the poll on this thread which has Kimi beating Vettel 3 times and looking to beat Vettel again in this poll.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:15 pm 
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The only one I'm surprised by is Ocon having more votes than Perez. Ocon did miss out on valuable practice time but it can't be denied that Checo was ahead in every measurable way - qualy, race, points, spins!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:35 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's interesting in a season were Hamilton is seen to be performing indifferently, his gap to Bottas is similar to Vettel's gap to Kimi.


That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.

What does that even mean? On what planet is Vettel's performance ahead of Hamilton this season?


Turn up and drive, Vettel is yet to have a lacklustre weekend.

Just that he seems to be punished more for his mistakes compared to others.

China, Baku France and Germany are examples of that.

On track, he is so far the only one to go wheel to wheel and overtake fellow title contenders.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's interesting in a season were Hamilton is seen to be performing indifferently, his gap to Bottas is similar to Vettel's gap to Kimi.


That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.

I'm going by the poll on this thread which has Kimi beating Vettel 3 times and looking to beat Vettel again in this poll.


But the three times have been China Baku and France.

On pure speed outside of Australia he is nowhere near Vettel.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:40 pm 
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Which 3 races was Kimi voted ahead? Australia yes. I’m guessimg Baku due to the Vettel error? What is the other one?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:47 pm 
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A few tricky ones to call this time, and one that I haven't voted on at all:

Hamilton over Bottas. Easy enough; he outclassed Bottas in every way.
Raikkonen over Vettel. Slightly slower in the race, although one has to consider his dodgy strategy of pitting early, but most importantly he didn't DNF due to an unforced error.
Perez over Ocon. This is pretty straightforward, although Perez's spin wasn't ideal.
Sirotkin over Stroll. Mostly based on qualifying, since they both DNF'd in the race.
Hulkenberg over Sainz. Total domination once it started to rain.
Gasly over Hartley. A bit of a tough one, but he qualified ahead and in my opinion only didn't finish ahead because of his team's strategy screw-up.
Grosjean over Magnussen. Totally outclassed KMag after it started to rain.
Alonso over Vandoorne. I almost didn't vote for this one, but I think Alonso was comfortably ahead before the strategy gaff.
Leclerc over Ericsson. Quicker all weekend, and just screwed over by the inter strategy.

I didn't vote on Red Bull. Ricciardo didn't really qualify, and in the race he DNF'd too early to make a valid comparison.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:41 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Which 3 races was Kimi voted ahead? Australia yes. I’m guessimg Baku due to the Vettel error? What is the other one?


Image

Should be self-explanatory but just in case it isn't: orange indicates a driver won the TMW while magenta indicates a driver received 0 votes.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:18 am 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's interesting in a season were Hamilton is seen to be performing indifferently, his gap to Bottas is similar to Vettel's gap to Kimi.


That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.

I'm going by the poll on this thread which has Kimi beating Vettel 3 times and looking to beat Vettel again in this poll.


But the three times have been China Baku and France.

On pure speed outside of Australia he is nowhere near Vettel.


You'll find that these polls do not worth much. People just vote for their personal favourites. When it suits someone of course, then they are valid enough


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:38 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
You'll find that these polls do not worth much. People just vote for their personal favourites. When it suits someone of course, then they are valid enough

I actually think the majority respect this poll, same as they did with the single vote iteration of Driver of the Weekend we had last year. As evidence, there have been several races where highly popular drivers such as Verstappen or Hamilton have lost heavily to their teammates. That doesn't happen if people just vote for their favorite. Another example being that Alonso has beaten Vandoorne in the poll every time except for France, where he didn't - and it was the first time he's looked weaker in the race. If it was all favoritism, he would have won there as well.

Kimi was voted ahead of Vettel in the above mentioned races because either there was reason to think he was faster (Australia and Austria) or Vettel threw away the possibility to finish ahead of him (France). If he loses this one, it will be the same - he should have finished ahead, but he has only himself to blame for not doing so.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:02 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
You'll find that these polls do not worth much. People just vote for their personal favourites. When it suits someone of course, then they are valid enough

I actually think the majority respect this poll, same as they did with the single vote iteration of Driver of the Weekend we had last year. As evidence, there have been several races where highly popular drivers such as Verstappen or Hamilton have lost heavily to their teammates. That doesn't happen if people just vote for their favorite. Another example being that Alonso has beaten Vandoorne in the poll every time except for France, where he didn't - and it was the first time he's looked weaker in the race. If it was all favoritism, he would have won there as well.

Kimi was voted ahead of Vettel in the above mentioned races because either there was reason to think he was faster (Australia and Austria) or Vettel threw away the possibility to finish ahead of him (France). If he loses this one, it will be the same - he should have finished ahead, but he has only himself to blame for not doing so.


How was Kimi faster than Vettel in Austria, Max started behind Kimi and won the race, Vettel only ended up behind due to the penalty from qualifying.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:58 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's interesting in a season were Hamilton is seen to be performing indifferently, his gap to Bottas is similar to Vettel's gap to Kimi.


That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.

I'm going by the poll on this thread which has Kimi beating Vettel 3 times and looking to beat Vettel again in this poll.


But the three times have been China Baku and France.

On pure speed outside of Australia he is nowhere near Vettel.


You'll find that these polls do not worth much. People just vote for their personal favourites. When it suits someone of course, then they are valid enough


Let me dispel this myth: yes, there are always going to be a couple of votes based purely on personal favourites (and for what it's worth, if I had access to the individual voting details then I would look to prevent people from voting who are clearly doing so just for their favourite drivers). But if you look at the numbers then you can see a trend from the 100 votes we've had so far. On 82 occasions, one driver has scored 70% or more of the vote. On 66 occasions, one driver has scored 85% or more of the vote. And on just four occasions has the winning driver in any individual TMW vote won by less than 10%. In other words, 82% of the time we're getting a clear majority voting for one driver over the other while it is very, very rare that we get a vote where the outcome is actually close (just 4% of the time).

If favouritism was having that much of an impact then, given the fact we generally have majorities rather than close votes, it would mean that the same people would be voting for the same drivers every race and we would see their favourites much further ahead overall than they are. But in reality the most lopsided scores are in favour of the two drivers who have been the most comfortably ahead of their teammates: Alonso and Magnussen. And as Exediron pointed out, if favouritism was having a large influence then Alonso would've won the vote in France regardless of performance. I'm not saying these votes are a perfect, definitive view of the relative driver performance within each team, but I do feel like the results we get at any given race generally have enough of a majority to be considered a decent representation and as such, a very small amount of favouritism in the votes isn't going to have an impact on the overall picture.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:14 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.

I'm going by the poll on this thread which has Kimi beating Vettel 3 times and looking to beat Vettel again in this poll.


But the three times have been China Baku and France.

On pure speed outside of Australia he is nowhere near Vettel.


You'll find that these polls do not worth much. People just vote for their personal favourites. When it suits someone of course, then they are valid enough


Let me dispel this myth: yes, there are always going to be a couple of votes based purely on personal favourites (and for what it's worth, if I had access to the individual voting details then I would look to prevent people from voting who are clearly doing so just for their favourite drivers). But if you look at the numbers then you can see a trend from the 100 votes we've had so far. On 82 occasions, one driver has scored 70% or more of the vote. On 66 occasions, one driver has scored 85% or more of the vote. And on just four occasions has the winning driver in any individual TMW vote won by less than 10%. In other words, 82% of the time we're getting a clear majority voting for one driver over the other while it is very, very rare that we get a vote where the outcome is actually close (just 4% of the time).

If favouritism was having that much of an impact then, given the fact we generally have majorities rather than close votes, it would mean that the same people would be voting for the same drivers every race and we would see their favourites much further ahead overall than they are. But in reality the most lopsided scores are in favour of the two drivers who have been the most comfortably ahead of their teammates: Alonso and Magnussen. And as Exediron pointed out, if favouritism was having a large influence then Alonso would've won the vote in France regardless of performance. I'm not saying these votes are a perfect, definitive view of the relative driver performance within each team, but I do feel like the results we get at any given race generally have enough of a majority to be considered a decent representation and as such, a very small amount of favouritism in the votes isn't going to have an impact on the overall picture.


First of all I disagree with taking percentages from one poll and make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years. Now, after every race we have people voting for their favourite drivers, very easy to spot when a driver gets votes when he clearly did not deserve it. There have been arguments if a driver that won from pole should be even voted as the DOTD. I'm not saying that they are always off the mark, in fact lately they have improved indeed.

But you probably missed my point or I wasn't clear enough. These polls are not gospel. They are polls in a little forum, that can often be biased. And people use them to make their point if it suits them. That's all


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:08 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
First of all I disagree with taking percentages from one poll and make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years. Now, after every race we have people voting for their favourite drivers, very easy to spot when a driver gets votes when he clearly did not deserve it. There have been arguments if a driver that won from pole should be even voted as the DOTD. I'm not saying that they are always off the mark, in fact lately they have improved indeed.

But you probably missed my point or I wasn't clear enough. These polls are not gospel. They are polls in a little forum, that can often be biased. And people use them to make their point if it suits them. That's all


And either you've misread what I said or you've just misunderstood it. Nowhere did I take percentages from one poll and "make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years." Others have mentioned the DOTD poll but my post was 100% related to my TMW polls. What I did was total up all the votes received so far for every individual TMW and simply highlighted that of the 100 individual TMW votes (10 per race x 10 races) the majority (82) have seen one of the two drivers receive 70% or more of the vote, whilst only four all season have been 'close' in the sense of being less than 10% separating the two drivers. If you want individual numbers from each race:

Winning driver receives > 70% of the TMW vote: 8, 8, 7, 9, 9, 10, 9, 7, 7, 8 (82 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives > 85% of the TMW vote: 6, 7, 5, 7, 8, 8, 8, 6, 4, 7 (66 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives < 60% of the TMW vote: 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2 (4 out of a possible 100)

Again, I'll reiterate my point: if there was enough favouritism in the voting to mean that the results - which are generally majorities for whichever the winning driver at any given race weekend is - were heavily influenced by it then it would be the same drivers winning the vote every race regardless of what happened. And that isn't the case. Popular drivers like Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Verstappen have all had races where they've had very few votes. No doubt there are a couple of votes each race that aren't deserved but because so few of the outcomes are close it's only going to have any kind of an impact where the difference in the percentage is very small, and as I've highlighted, it's very rare that we get such close fights. Most are a landslide for one driver.

Also, why you're suggesting I think these polls are "gospel" I don't really know. I literally said in my last post, "I'm not saying these votes are a perfect, definitive view of the relative driver performance within each team," and I've repeatedly acknowledged that there is a small amount of favouritism in some people's votes. So you're just making stuff up there.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:14 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
You'll find that these polls do not worth much. People just vote for their personal favourites. When it suits someone of course, then they are valid enough

I actually think the majority respect this poll, same as they did with the single vote iteration of Driver of the Weekend we had last year. As evidence, there have been several races where highly popular drivers such as Verstappen or Hamilton have lost heavily to their teammates. That doesn't happen if people just vote for their favorite. Another example being that Alonso has beaten Vandoorne in the poll every time except for France, where he didn't - and it was the first time he's looked weaker in the race. If it was all favoritism, he would have won there as well.

Kimi was voted ahead of Vettel in the above mentioned races because either there was reason to think he was faster (Australia and Austria) or Vettel threw away the possibility to finish ahead of him (France). If he loses this one, it will be the same - he should have finished ahead, but he has only himself to blame for not doing so.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:16 am 
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mcdo wrote:
The only one I'm surprised by is Ocon having more votes than Perez. Ocon did miss out on valuable practice time but it can't be denied that Checo was ahead in every measurable way - qualy, race, points, spins!

Perez now leads, I myself voted for Perez.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:19 am 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's interesting in a season were Hamilton is seen to be performing indifferently, his gap to Bottas is similar to Vettel's gap to Kimi.


That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.

What does that even mean? On what planet is Vettel's performance ahead of Hamilton this season?


Turn up and drive, Vettel is yet to have a lacklustre weekend.

Just that he seems to be punished more for his mistakes compared to others.

China, Baku France and Germany are examples of that.

On track, he is so far the only one to go wheel to wheel and overtake fellow title contenders.

Baku, France and Germany were glaring errors don't you think?

If Vettel doesn't win the WDC those races will come back to haunt him.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:23 am 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's interesting in a season were Hamilton is seen to be performing indifferently, his gap to Bottas is similar to Vettel's gap to Kimi.


That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.

I'm going by the poll on this thread which has Kimi beating Vettel 3 times and looking to beat Vettel again in this poll.


But the three times have been China Baku and France.

On pure speed outside of Australia he is nowhere near Vettel.

How can you out perform your teammate when you crash due to your own fault?

Was China were Verstappen hit Vettel, I voted for Vettel, however I think there are grounds for voting for Kimi in Australia given that the VSC gifted Vettel the pass on Kimi.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:23 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Which 3 races was Kimi voted ahead? Australia yes. I’m guessimg Baku due to the Vettel error? What is the other one?

France were Vettel hit Bottas at the start.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:27 am 
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Exediron wrote:
A few tricky ones to call this time, and one that I haven't voted on at all:

Hamilton over Bottas. Easy enough; he outclassed Bottas in every way.
Raikkonen over Vettel. Slightly slower in the race, although one has to consider his dodgy strategy of pitting early, but most importantly he didn't DNF due to an unforced error.
Perez over Ocon. This is pretty straightforward, although Perez's spin wasn't ideal.
Sirotkin over Stroll. Mostly based on qualifying, since they both DNF'd in the race.
Hulkenberg over Sainz. Total domination once it started to rain.
Gasly over Hartley. A bit of a tough one, but he qualified ahead and in my opinion only didn't finish ahead because of his team's strategy screw-up.
Grosjean over Magnussen. Totally outclassed KMag after it started to rain.
Alonso over Vandoorne. I almost didn't vote for this one, but I think Alonso was comfortably ahead before the strategy gaff.
Leclerc over Ericsson. Quicker all weekend, and just screwed over by the inter strategy.

I didn't vote on Red Bull. Ricciardo didn't really qualify, and in the race he DNF'd too early to make a valid comparison.

I voted for Ericsson, he made the call not to pit for inters plus unlike Leclerc he managed to keep the car on the track and not spinning like a top, he earned his points.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:30 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
First of all I disagree with taking percentages from one poll and make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years. Now, after every race we have people voting for their favourite drivers, very easy to spot when a driver gets votes when he clearly did not deserve it. There have been arguments if a driver that won from pole should be even voted as the DOTD. I'm not saying that they are always off the mark, in fact lately they have improved indeed.

But you probably missed my point or I wasn't clear enough. These polls are not gospel. They are polls in a little forum, that can often be biased. And people use them to make their point if it suits them. That's all


And either you've misread what I said or you've just misunderstood it. Nowhere did I take percentages from one poll and "make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years." Others have mentioned the DOTD poll but my post was 100% related to my TMW polls. What I did was total up all the votes received so far for every individual TMW and simply highlighted that of the 100 individual TMW votes (10 per race x 10 races) the majority (82) have seen one of the two drivers receive 70% or more of the vote, whilst only four all season have been 'close' in the sense of being less than 10% separating the two drivers. If you want individual numbers from each race:

Winning driver receives > 70% of the TMW vote: 8, 8, 7, 9, 9, 10, 9, 7, 7, 8 (82 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives > 85% of the TMW vote: 6, 7, 5, 7, 8, 8, 8, 6, 4, 7 (66 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives < 60% of the TMW vote: 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2 (4 out of a possible 100)

Again, I'll reiterate my point: if there was enough favouritism in the voting to mean that the results - which are generally majorities for whichever the winning driver at any given race weekend is - were heavily influenced by it then it would be the same drivers winning the vote every race regardless of what happened. And that isn't the case. Popular drivers like Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Verstappen have all had races where they've had very few votes. No doubt there are a couple of votes each race that aren't deserved but because so few of the outcomes are close it's only going to have any kind of an impact where the difference in the percentage is very small, and as I've highlighted, it's very rare that we get such close fights. Most are a landslide for one driver.

Also, why you're suggesting I think these polls are "gospel" I don't really know. I literally said in my last post, "I'm not saying these votes are a perfect, definitive view of the relative driver performance within each team," and I've repeatedly acknowledged that there is a small amount of favouritism in some people's votes. So you're just making stuff up there.


You are absolutely right, I read your post again and I completely misunderstood it. When you said the 100 votes so far I thought just for this voting, so apologies for that, I take your point.

But what stuff am I making up? I did not say that you are taking them as gospel, so it maybe looks like you are making stuff up? All I said is that in pretty much every poll you will see people arguing about the results being biased. I did not say that you argued against it, so don't be so sensitive...

I'll try to explain it again. As improved as they are lately, these polls are not perfect (which you seem to have agreed), so take them with a very small pinch of salt. People will use them if it suits their argument though. Maybe let's agree to disagree.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:31 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Which 3 races was Kimi voted ahead? Australia yes. I’m guessimg Baku due to the Vettel error? What is the other one?


Image

Should be self-explanatory but just in case it isn't: orange indicates a driver won the TMW while magenta indicates a driver received 0 votes.

Totally forgot about Austria, Kimi finished in front of Vettel.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:32 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's interesting in a season were Hamilton is seen to be performing indifferently, his gap to Bottas is similar to Vettel's gap to Kimi.


That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.

I'm going by the poll on this thread which has Kimi beating Vettel 3 times and looking to beat Vettel again in this poll.


But the three times have been China Baku and France.

On pure speed outside of Australia he is nowhere near Vettel.


You'll find that these polls do not worth much. People just vote for their personal favourites. When it suits someone of course, then they are valid enough

Yes it must be the majority of people that are wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:35 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
You'll find that these polls do not worth much. People just vote for their personal favourites. When it suits someone of course, then they are valid enough

I actually think the majority respect this poll, same as they did with the single vote iteration of Driver of the Weekend we had last year. As evidence, there have been several races where highly popular drivers such as Verstappen or Hamilton have lost heavily to their teammates. That doesn't happen if people just vote for their favorite. Another example being that Alonso has beaten Vandoorne in the poll every time except for France, where he didn't - and it was the first time he's looked weaker in the race. If it was all favoritism, he would have won there as well.

Kimi was voted ahead of Vettel in the above mentioned races because either there was reason to think he was faster (Australia and Austria) or Vettel threw away the possibility to finish ahead of him (France). If he loses this one, it will be the same - he should have finished ahead, but he has only himself to blame for not doing so.


How was Kimi faster than Vettel in Austria, Max started behind Kimi and won the race, Vettel only ended up behind due to the penalty from qualifying.

That would be Vettel's self inflicted penalty no matter how unjust you may happen to think it was, I don't believe anyone took into account Hamilton's gearbox penalty earlier in the season which wasn't his fault.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:42 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
First of all I disagree with taking percentages from one poll and make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years. Now, after every race we have people voting for their favourite drivers, very easy to spot when a driver gets votes when he clearly did not deserve it. There have been arguments if a driver that won from pole should be even voted as the DOTD. I'm not saying that they are always off the mark, in fact lately they have improved indeed.

But you probably missed my point or I wasn't clear enough. These polls are not gospel. They are polls in a little forum, that can often be biased. And people use them to make their point if it suits them. That's all


And either you've misread what I said or you've just misunderstood it. Nowhere did I take percentages from one poll and "make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years." Others have mentioned the DOTD poll but my post was 100% related to my TMW polls. What I did was total up all the votes received so far for every individual TMW and simply highlighted that of the 100 individual TMW votes (10 per race x 10 races) the majority (82) have seen one of the two drivers receive 70% or more of the vote, whilst only four all season have been 'close' in the sense of being less than 10% separating the two drivers. If you want individual numbers from each race:

Winning driver receives > 70% of the TMW vote: 8, 8, 7, 9, 9, 10, 9, 7, 7, 8 (82 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives > 85% of the TMW vote: 6, 7, 5, 7, 8, 8, 8, 6, 4, 7 (66 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives < 60% of the TMW vote: 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2 (4 out of a possible 100)

Again, I'll reiterate my point: if there was enough favouritism in the voting to mean that the results - which are generally majorities for whichever the winning driver at any given race weekend is - were heavily influenced by it then it would be the same drivers winning the vote every race regardless of what happened. And that isn't the case. Popular drivers like Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Verstappen have all had races where they've had very few votes. No doubt there are a couple of votes each race that aren't deserved but because so few of the outcomes are close it's only going to have any kind of an impact where the difference in the percentage is very small, and as I've highlighted, it's very rare that we get such close fights. Most are a landslide for one driver.

Also, why you're suggesting I think these polls are "gospel" I don't really know. I literally said in my last post, "I'm not saying these votes are a perfect, definitive view of the relative driver performance within each team," and I've repeatedly acknowledged that there is a small amount of favouritism in some people's votes. So you're just making stuff up there.


You are absolutely right, I read your post again and I completely misunderstood it. When you said the 100 votes so far I thought just for this voting, so apologies for that, I take your point.

But what stuff am I making up? I did not say that you are taking them as gospel, so it maybe looks like you are making stuff up? All I said is that in pretty much every poll you will see people arguing about the results being biased. I did not say that you argued against it, so don't be so sensitive...

I'll try to explain it again. As improved as they are lately, these polls are not perfect (which you seem to have agreed), so take them with a very small pinch of salt. People will use them if it suits their argument though. Maybe let's agree to disagree.

Whilst some people will disregard the majority if it doesn't agree with their own opinions, for me I see the poll like a democracy.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
A few tricky ones to call this time, and one that I haven't voted on at all:

Hamilton over Bottas. Easy enough; he outclassed Bottas in every way.
Raikkonen over Vettel. Slightly slower in the race, although one has to consider his dodgy strategy of pitting early, but most importantly he didn't DNF due to an unforced error.
Perez over Ocon. This is pretty straightforward, although Perez's spin wasn't ideal.
Sirotkin over Stroll. Mostly based on qualifying, since they both DNF'd in the race.
Hulkenberg over Sainz. Total domination once it started to rain.
Gasly over Hartley. A bit of a tough one, but he qualified ahead and in my opinion only didn't finish ahead because of his team's strategy screw-up.
Grosjean over Magnussen. Totally outclassed KMag after it started to rain.
Alonso over Vandoorne. I almost didn't vote for this one, but I think Alonso was comfortably ahead before the strategy gaff.
Leclerc over Ericsson. Quicker all weekend, and just screwed over by the inter strategy.

I didn't vote on Red Bull. Ricciardo didn't really qualify, and in the race he DNF'd too early to make a valid comparison.

Sorry to come to Ericsson's defence again. I'll agree Leclerc was much better in qualifying. And also better in the first part of the race. The race indeed was ruined by what the team did, but I thught he asked for this. But he got put back onto the same tyres Ericsson had changed to (ultras) And he spun, twice on these, which Ericsson didn't. Not badly the first time, but the 2nd spin cost him a lot of time and one or two places. That part of the race of the race was a mess of his own making. And Ericsson actually was pretty impressive at this stage like Grosjean. Leclerc didn't look quicker here. In this instance (one of the few) I think it is a bit unfair to vote Leclerc over Ericsson.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

That's because you used the head to head and not actual performance.

In actual performance Vettel is ahead of Hamilton, and versus Raikkonen only once has Kimi beaten Vettel on pace this season which was the opening race.

I'm going by the poll on this thread which has Kimi beating Vettel 3 times and looking to beat Vettel again in this poll.


But the three times have been China Baku and France.

On pure speed outside of Australia he is nowhere near Vettel.


You'll find that these polls do not worth much. People just vote for their personal favourites. When it suits someone of course, then they are valid enough

Yes it must be the majority of people that are wrong.


Who talked about majority? Read again


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
First of all I disagree with taking percentages from one poll and make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years. Now, after every race we have people voting for their favourite drivers, very easy to spot when a driver gets votes when he clearly did not deserve it. There have been arguments if a driver that won from pole should be even voted as the DOTD. I'm not saying that they are always off the mark, in fact lately they have improved indeed.

But you probably missed my point or I wasn't clear enough. These polls are not gospel. They are polls in a little forum, that can often be biased. And people use them to make their point if it suits them. That's all


And either you've misread what I said or you've just misunderstood it. Nowhere did I take percentages from one poll and "make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years." Others have mentioned the DOTD poll but my post was 100% related to my TMW polls. What I did was total up all the votes received so far for every individual TMW and simply highlighted that of the 100 individual TMW votes (10 per race x 10 races) the majority (82) have seen one of the two drivers receive 70% or more of the vote, whilst only four all season have been 'close' in the sense of being less than 10% separating the two drivers. If you want individual numbers from each race:

Winning driver receives > 70% of the TMW vote: 8, 8, 7, 9, 9, 10, 9, 7, 7, 8 (82 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives > 85% of the TMW vote: 6, 7, 5, 7, 8, 8, 8, 6, 4, 7 (66 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives < 60% of the TMW vote: 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2 (4 out of a possible 100)

Again, I'll reiterate my point: if there was enough favouritism in the voting to mean that the results - which are generally majorities for whichever the winning driver at any given race weekend is - were heavily influenced by it then it would be the same drivers winning the vote every race regardless of what happened. And that isn't the case. Popular drivers like Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Verstappen have all had races where they've had very few votes. No doubt there are a couple of votes each race that aren't deserved but because so few of the outcomes are close it's only going to have any kind of an impact where the difference in the percentage is very small, and as I've highlighted, it's very rare that we get such close fights. Most are a landslide for one driver.

Also, why you're suggesting I think these polls are "gospel" I don't really know. I literally said in my last post, "I'm not saying these votes are a perfect, definitive view of the relative driver performance within each team," and I've repeatedly acknowledged that there is a small amount of favouritism in some people's votes. So you're just making stuff up there.


You are absolutely right, I read your post again and I completely misunderstood it. When you said the 100 votes so far I thought just for this voting, so apologies for that, I take your point.

But what stuff am I making up? I did not say that you are taking them as gospel, so it maybe looks like you are making stuff up? All I said is that in pretty much every poll you will see people arguing about the results being biased. I did not say that you argued against it, so don't be so sensitive...

I'll try to explain it again. As improved as they are lately, these polls are not perfect (which you seem to have agreed), so take them with a very small pinch of salt. People will use them if it suits their argument though. Maybe let's agree to disagree.

Whilst some people will disregard the majority if it doesn't agree with their own opinions, for me I see the poll like a democracy.

Which is exactly as I said, people will use it if it suits their argument. We are not disagreeing here


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
First of all I disagree with taking percentages from one poll and make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years. Now, after every race we have people voting for their favourite drivers, very easy to spot when a driver gets votes when he clearly did not deserve it. There have been arguments if a driver that won from pole should be even voted as the DOTD. I'm not saying that they are always off the mark, in fact lately they have improved indeed.

But you probably missed my point or I wasn't clear enough. These polls are not gospel. They are polls in a little forum, that can often be biased. And people use them to make their point if it suits them. That's all


And either you've misread what I said or you've just misunderstood it. Nowhere did I take percentages from one poll and "make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years." Others have mentioned the DOTD poll but my post was 100% related to my TMW polls. What I did was total up all the votes received so far for every individual TMW and simply highlighted that of the 100 individual TMW votes (10 per race x 10 races) the majority (82) have seen one of the two drivers receive 70% or more of the vote, whilst only four all season have been 'close' in the sense of being less than 10% separating the two drivers. If you want individual numbers from each race:

Winning driver receives > 70% of the TMW vote: 8, 8, 7, 9, 9, 10, 9, 7, 7, 8 (82 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives > 85% of the TMW vote: 6, 7, 5, 7, 8, 8, 8, 6, 4, 7 (66 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives < 60% of the TMW vote: 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2 (4 out of a possible 100)

Again, I'll reiterate my point: if there was enough favouritism in the voting to mean that the results - which are generally majorities for whichever the winning driver at any given race weekend is - were heavily influenced by it then it would be the same drivers winning the vote every race regardless of what happened. And that isn't the case. Popular drivers like Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Verstappen have all had races where they've had very few votes. No doubt there are a couple of votes each race that aren't deserved but because so few of the outcomes are close it's only going to have any kind of an impact where the difference in the percentage is very small, and as I've highlighted, it's very rare that we get such close fights. Most are a landslide for one driver.

Also, why you're suggesting I think these polls are "gospel" I don't really know. I literally said in my last post, "I'm not saying these votes are a perfect, definitive view of the relative driver performance within each team," and I've repeatedly acknowledged that there is a small amount of favouritism in some people's votes. So you're just making stuff up there.


You are absolutely right, I read your post again and I completely misunderstood it. When you said the 100 votes so far I thought just for this voting, so apologies for that, I take your point.

But what stuff am I making up? I did not say that you are taking them as gospel, so it maybe looks like you are making stuff up? All I said is that in pretty much every poll you will see people arguing about the results being biased. I did not say that you argued against it, so don't be so sensitive...

I'll try to explain it again. As improved as they are lately, these polls are not perfect (which you seem to have agreed), so take them with a very small pinch of salt. People will use them if it suits their argument though. Maybe let's agree to disagree.

Whilst some people will disregard the majority if it doesn't agree with their own opinions, for me I see the poll like a democracy.

Which is exactly as I said, people will use it if it suits their argument. We are not disagreeing here

I think Jenson has explained the fairness of the poll, all I see is someone who doesn't like the outcome of the poll.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:

And either you've misread what I said or you've just misunderstood it. Nowhere did I take percentages from one poll and "make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years." Others have mentioned the DOTD poll but my post was 100% related to my TMW polls. What I did was total up all the votes received so far for every individual TMW and simply highlighted that of the 100 individual TMW votes (10 per race x 10 races) the majority (82) have seen one of the two drivers receive 70% or more of the vote, whilst only four all season have been 'close' in the sense of being less than 10% separating the two drivers. If you want individual numbers from each race:

Winning driver receives > 70% of the TMW vote: 8, 8, 7, 9, 9, 10, 9, 7, 7, 8 (82 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives > 85% of the TMW vote: 6, 7, 5, 7, 8, 8, 8, 6, 4, 7 (66 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives < 60% of the TMW vote: 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2 (4 out of a possible 100)

Again, I'll reiterate my point: if there was enough favouritism in the voting to mean that the results - which are generally majorities for whichever the winning driver at any given race weekend is - were heavily influenced by it then it would be the same drivers winning the vote every race regardless of what happened. And that isn't the case. Popular drivers like Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Verstappen have all had races where they've had very few votes. No doubt there are a couple of votes each race that aren't deserved but because so few of the outcomes are close it's only going to have any kind of an impact where the difference in the percentage is very small, and as I've highlighted, it's very rare that we get such close fights. Most are a landslide for one driver.

Also, why you're suggesting I think these polls are "gospel" I don't really know. I literally said in my last post, "I'm not saying these votes are a perfect, definitive view of the relative driver performance within each team," and I've repeatedly acknowledged that there is a small amount of favouritism in some people's votes. So you're just making stuff up there.


You are absolutely right, I read your post again and I completely misunderstood it. When you said the 100 votes so far I thought just for this voting, so apologies for that, I take your point.

But what stuff am I making up? I did not say that you are taking them as gospel, so it maybe looks like you are making stuff up? All I said is that in pretty much every poll you will see people arguing about the results being biased. I did not say that you argued against it, so don't be so sensitive...

I'll try to explain it again. As improved as they are lately, these polls are not perfect (which you seem to have agreed), so take them with a very small pinch of salt. People will use them if it suits their argument though. Maybe let's agree to disagree.

Whilst some people will disregard the majority if it doesn't agree with their own opinions, for me I see the poll like a democracy.

Which is exactly as I said, people will use it if it suits their argument. We are not disagreeing here

I think Jenson has explained the fairness of the poll, all I see is someone who doesn't like the outcome of the poll.

I don't? You know that for sure?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:59 pm 
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The biggest problem with the polls here is simple, people can see the result and comments before they vote hence will interfere with it.
If the result is only available to you after you vote then it becomes realistic.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:23 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
The biggest problem with the polls here is simple, people can see the result and comments before they vote hence will interfere with it.
If the result is only available to you after you vote then it becomes realistic.


True, but at the same time they have to actually click and see the results. If you've not voted then they're not displayed by default.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
First of all I disagree with taking percentages from one poll and make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years. Now, after every race we have people voting for their favourite drivers, very easy to spot when a driver gets votes when he clearly did not deserve it. There have been arguments if a driver that won from pole should be even voted as the DOTD. I'm not saying that they are always off the mark, in fact lately they have improved indeed.

But you probably missed my point or I wasn't clear enough. These polls are not gospel. They are polls in a little forum, that can often be biased. And people use them to make their point if it suits them. That's all


And either you've misread what I said or you've just misunderstood it. Nowhere did I take percentages from one poll and "make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years." Others have mentioned the DOTD poll but my post was 100% related to my TMW polls. What I did was total up all the votes received so far for every individual TMW and simply highlighted that of the 100 individual TMW votes (10 per race x 10 races) the majority (82) have seen one of the two drivers receive 70% or more of the vote, whilst only four all season have been 'close' in the sense of being less than 10% separating the two drivers. If you want individual numbers from each race:

Winning driver receives > 70% of the TMW vote: 8, 8, 7, 9, 9, 10, 9, 7, 7, 8 (82 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives > 85% of the TMW vote: 6, 7, 5, 7, 8, 8, 8, 6, 4, 7 (66 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives < 60% of the TMW vote: 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2 (4 out of a possible 100)

Again, I'll reiterate my point: if there was enough favouritism in the voting to mean that the results - which are generally majorities for whichever the winning driver at any given race weekend is - were heavily influenced by it then it would be the same drivers winning the vote every race regardless of what happened. And that isn't the case. Popular drivers like Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Verstappen have all had races where they've had very few votes. No doubt there are a couple of votes each race that aren't deserved but because so few of the outcomes are close it's only going to have any kind of an impact where the difference in the percentage is very small, and as I've highlighted, it's very rare that we get such close fights. Most are a landslide for one driver.

Also, why you're suggesting I think these polls are "gospel" I don't really know. I literally said in my last post, "I'm not saying these votes are a perfect, definitive view of the relative driver performance within each team," and I've repeatedly acknowledged that there is a small amount of favouritism in some people's votes. So you're just making stuff up there.


You are absolutely right, I read your post again and I completely misunderstood it. When you said the 100 votes so far I thought just for this voting, so apologies for that, I take your point.

But what stuff am I making up? I did not say that you are taking them as gospel, so it maybe looks like you are making stuff up? All I said is that in pretty much every poll you will see people arguing about the results being biased. I did not say that you argued against it, so don't be so sensitive...

I'll try to explain it again. As improved as they are lately, these polls are not perfect (which you seem to have agreed), so take them with a very small pinch of salt. People will use them if it suits their argument though. Maybe let's agree to disagree.


BIB: Ah, I think I misinterpreted it, then. As you were replying directly to my post, I thought you were suggesting I was claiming the poll was like gospel. But if that wasn't the case then I apologise!

Ultimately, these polls aren't meant to be scientific. They're done with the expectation that a small amount of the votes are going to be for people's favourites, or that in a weekend where both drivers perform well, it could be the voter's preference for one of the drivers that ultimately makes them vote that way. At the same time, I do think there is some value to the results for the reasons I've already stated, even if it is probably on quite a simplistic level.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
First of all I disagree with taking percentages from one poll and make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years. Now, after every race we have people voting for their favourite drivers, very easy to spot when a driver gets votes when he clearly did not deserve it. There have been arguments if a driver that won from pole should be even voted as the DOTD. I'm not saying that they are always off the mark, in fact lately they have improved indeed.

But you probably missed my point or I wasn't clear enough. These polls are not gospel. They are polls in a little forum, that can often be biased. And people use them to make their point if it suits them. That's all


And either you've misread what I said or you've just misunderstood it. Nowhere did I take percentages from one poll and "make them representative for all the polls we had so far over the years." Others have mentioned the DOTD poll but my post was 100% related to my TMW polls. What I did was total up all the votes received so far for every individual TMW and simply highlighted that of the 100 individual TMW votes (10 per race x 10 races) the majority (82) have seen one of the two drivers receive 70% or more of the vote, whilst only four all season have been 'close' in the sense of being less than 10% separating the two drivers. If you want individual numbers from each race:

Winning driver receives > 70% of the TMW vote: 8, 8, 7, 9, 9, 10, 9, 7, 7, 8 (82 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives > 85% of the TMW vote: 6, 7, 5, 7, 8, 8, 8, 6, 4, 7 (66 out of a possible 100)
Winning driver receives < 60% of the TMW vote: 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2 (4 out of a possible 100)

Again, I'll reiterate my point: if there was enough favouritism in the voting to mean that the results - which are generally majorities for whichever the winning driver at any given race weekend is - were heavily influenced by it then it would be the same drivers winning the vote every race regardless of what happened. And that isn't the case. Popular drivers like Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Raikkonen and Verstappen have all had races where they've had very few votes. No doubt there are a couple of votes each race that aren't deserved but because so few of the outcomes are close it's only going to have any kind of an impact where the difference in the percentage is very small, and as I've highlighted, it's very rare that we get such close fights. Most are a landslide for one driver.

Also, why you're suggesting I think these polls are "gospel" I don't really know. I literally said in my last post, "I'm not saying these votes are a perfect, definitive view of the relative driver performance within each team," and I've repeatedly acknowledged that there is a small amount of favouritism in some people's votes. So you're just making stuff up there.


You are absolutely right, I read your post again and I completely misunderstood it. When you said the 100 votes so far I thought just for this voting, so apologies for that, I take your point.

But what stuff am I making up? I did not say that you are taking them as gospel, so it maybe looks like you are making stuff up? All I said is that in pretty much every poll you will see people arguing about the results being biased. I did not say that you argued against it, so don't be so sensitive...

I'll try to explain it again. As improved as they are lately, these polls are not perfect (which you seem to have agreed), so take them with a very small pinch of salt. People will use them if it suits their argument though. Maybe let's agree to disagree.


BIB: Ah, I think I misinterpreted it, then. As you were replying directly to my post, I thought you were suggesting I was claiming the poll was like gospel. But if that wasn't the case then I apologise!

Ultimately, these polls aren't meant to be scientific. They're done with the expectation that a small amount of the votes are going to be for people's favourites, or that in a weekend where both drivers perform well, it could be the voter's preference for one of the drivers that ultimately makes them vote that way. At the same time, I do think there is some value to the results for the reasons I've already stated, even if it is probably on quite a simplistic level.


Oh no, not aimed at you at all, I was making a general point, sorry for the confusion from my part!

I agree with the rest of your post 100%, these polls are for fun and they do have some value at least


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The biggest problem with the polls here is simple, people can see the result and comments before they vote hence will interfere with it.
If the result is only available to you after you vote then it becomes realistic.

True, but at the same time they have to actually click and see the results. If you've not voted then they're not displayed by default.

I never look at the results first, but there are times when I vote 'strategically' so to speak. If I think one driver is going to win easily - but I feel it was closer than that - I'll sometimes vote for the driver I don't think actually won the teammate war just to make the percentage closer to what I perceive as being fair. I don't look at the vote first, though.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:06 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Leclerc over Ericsson. Quicker all weekend, and just screwed over by the inter strategy.

Sorry to come to Ericsson's defence again. I'll agree Leclerc was much better in qualifying. And also better in the first part of the race. The race indeed was ruined by what the team did, but I thught he asked for this. But he got put back onto the same tyres Ericsson had changed to (ultras) And he spun, twice on these, which Ericsson didn't. Not badly the first time, but the 2nd spin cost him a lot of time and one or two places. That part of the race of the race was a mess of his own making. And Ericsson actually was pretty impressive at this stage like Grosjean. Leclerc didn't look quicker here. In this instance (one of the few) I think it is a bit unfair to vote Leclerc over Ericsson.

If he did indeed pick the strategy himself, then I agree it's his fault. Otherwise, I think his performance over the rest of the race would have seen him finish ahead anyway, albeit by a narrower margin than if it hadn't rained. Ericsson was quite strong in the wet-to-dry part of the race, I agree.

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