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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:18 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
You have guys driving at the edge, trying to eek out any advantage on a first lap, with about 3 different stories playing out around their immediate vicinities.

Raikkonen made a minor error that was nothing we haven't seen 1000 times before in the first few corners. It was unfortunate he tapped Hamilton.

That is racing.

+1
Pretty much this.

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:56 am 
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I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.


Last edited by Ocon on Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:06 am 
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Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

With that kind of incident no penalty will stop it from happening again, it was a small lock up.

The risk of making that mistake is getting damage to the car and potentially retiring from the race, no penalty is going to make a driver think twice about pushing close to the limit of braking when that's the risk they're already taking.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:11 am 
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Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

The penalty is meaningless - whether it's 5, 10 or 30 seconds. What prevents collisions from happening more often is the risk of taking out yourself as well.

Sure, you could impose very harsh penalties. And then what? Drivers tiptoeing? Not going for anything even remotely resembling of a risk anymore? Now that's going to be AWESOME racing.

And heck it wouldn't even have prevented this particular case since it wasn't even borne out of a risky manoeuvre but out of a minor error. If you think that should be punished more harshly, you hate racing.

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:39 am 
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mds wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

The penalty is meaningless - whether it's 5, 10 or 30 seconds. What prevents collisions from happening more often is the risk of taking out yourself as well.

Sure, you could impose very harsh penalties. And then what? Drivers tiptoeing? Not going for anything even remotely resembling of a risk anymore? Now that's going to be AWESOME racing.

And heck it wouldn't even have prevented this particular case since it wasn't even borne out of a risky manoeuvre but out of a minor error. If you think that should be punished more harshly, you hate racing.


Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

With that kind of incident no penalty will stop it from happening again, it was a small lock up.

The risk of making that mistake is getting damage to the car and potentially retiring from the race, no penalty is going to make a driver think twice about pushing close to the limit of braking when that's the risk they're already taking.


Tiptoeing is an exaggeration. I don't see anything wrong with drivers being more careful in these kind of situations. I could live with racing being a tad less exciting if it meant the championship is decided in a more fair manner. Risking taking yourself out isn't enough of a deterrent and it's not relevant in a situation where you're not directly taking out your WDC opponent, but your teammate is. I'm not saying Kimi did it on purpose, but he should've been more careful when he knows he has a championship contender beside him.

If not harsher penalties, then why not a system where the victim is guaranteed a certain amount of points? For example, in this latest case, giving Lewis second place worth of points regardless of where or if he finishes.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:48 am 
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Ocon wrote:
Risking taking yourself out isn't enough of a deterrent and it's not relevant in a situation where you're not directly taking out your WDC opponent, but your teammate is.


Apart from my idea that there's something in this reasoning that's not as you meant to put it (what does Vettel have to do with this one - the "your teammate is" seems to point at something Vettel would have done?), I have no idea how the risk of ruining your own race is not enough of a deterrent. The drivers are out there to do as well as possible and ruining your own race is the polar opposite of that.

Quote:
I'm not saying Kimi did it on purpose, but he should've been more careful when he knows he has a championship contender beside him.


I don't agree. I mean, could he have been more careful even? He made a mistake, it logically follows from that that he assessed he would be able to make it.

Quote:
If not harsher penalties, then why not a system where the victim is guaranteed a certain amount of points? For example, in this latest case, giving Lewis second place worth of points regardless of where or if he finishes.


Why do that given he was P3 to begin with from his own doing? Why do that when you have no idea how the rest of the race after T1 (well, T3 in this case) would have played out?

This is racing and you take the good with the bad.

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:55 am 
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Ocon wrote:
mds wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

The penalty is meaningless - whether it's 5, 10 or 30 seconds. What prevents collisions from happening more often is the risk of taking out yourself as well.

Sure, you could impose very harsh penalties. And then what? Drivers tiptoeing? Not going for anything even remotely resembling of a risk anymore? Now that's going to be AWESOME racing.

And heck it wouldn't even have prevented this particular case since it wasn't even borne out of a risky manoeuvre but out of a minor error. If you think that should be punished more harshly, you hate racing.


Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

With that kind of incident no penalty will stop it from happening again, it was a small lock up.

The risk of making that mistake is getting damage to the car and potentially retiring from the race, no penalty is going to make a driver think twice about pushing close to the limit of braking when that's the risk they're already taking.


Tiptoeing is an exaggeration. I don't see anything wrong with drivers being more careful in these kind of situations. I could live with racing being a tad less exciting if it meant the championship is decided in a more fair manner. Risking taking yourself out isn't enough of a deterrent and it's not relevant in a situation where you're not directly taking out your WDC opponent, but your teammate is. I'm not saying Kimi did it on purpose, but he should've been more careful when he knows he has a championship contender beside him.

If not harsher penalties, then why not a system where the victim is guaranteed a certain amount of points? For example, in this latest case, giving Lewis second place worth of points regardless of where or if he finishes.

But that would be absurd. If you have Hamilton the points for P3 (where he was when he was hit) after 3 corners of racing that would make a complete joke of the race. It's where you finish after 52 laps that counts, not where you were when you hit some misfortune 3 corners in.

You'd end up with half the fields finishing positions decided on lap 1 with all the incidents and a finishing order that is completely different to the results.

Say Verstappen gets taken out from 3rd a couple of laps later, does he get 15 points as well as Hamilton?


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:25 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Blake wrote:
ALESI wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I think the penalty was a bit harsh but it also cost Lewis greatly.

Having said that, one thing to keep in mind is that Kimi has been one of the cleanest drivers throughout his career. He's always fought wheel to wheel as hard as anyone but I can't recall Kimi blatantly or aggressively turn n on anyone and if anything, his quick thinking and reflexes have prevented accidents with many drivers. If it was a driver who had a history of questionable behavior, then I could understand a 10 second penalty. Since it's Kimi I think I think it was too much and as a supporter of both, I would have been ok with no penalty at all given because there was no malice in any regard. Just 2 guys going at it hard for a few corners and one of them locked up a little and the incidental contact was juuuuuust enough to send the other guy around.

Of all the incidents we've seen chalked up as nothing more than a racing incident, I feel this one should have been ruled as such.


I agree 100%


....... But, but, but... he "rammed" Lewis...

;)

I think if any one of us were in Mercedes or in the shoes of their drivers we wouldn't have a hard time thinking, feeling and reacting the way Lewis did after the race.
The adrenaline was still pumping and he was pretty peeved overall.
Having said that, fans had a clear view, as well as several replays that showed how it all unfolded
and I don't think anyone with the ability to think rationally, (die hard Mercedes or Lewis fan or not) can genuinely say that there was ANY kind of malice or haste on Kimi's part.
Just good ole hard white knuckle RACING.


I beg to disagree, it was a first lap incident, plenty of time to contemplate and think about it and get your thoughts together. Merc has seen all the replays, just as the fans as you mentioned, so for Totto and Allison to come out with these bullcrap comments I find it a bit rich, I don't buy it. They should have been on the radio first thing to tell Lewis to keep his head together. Lewis himself was saying "these things happen in racing" only a couple of weeks ago when he was defending Vettel's incident. They are not stupid, they know how F1 works.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:32 am 
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Where were all these people when ham was running Nico off the road?
Bangin with Massa?
Let them have at it - or go to Ilse of Mann style and race the clock.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:35 am 
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Ocon wrote:
mds wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

The penalty is meaningless - whether it's 5, 10 or 30 seconds. What prevents collisions from happening more often is the risk of taking out yourself as well.

Sure, you could impose very harsh penalties. And then what? Drivers tiptoeing? Not going for anything even remotely resembling of a risk anymore? Now that's going to be AWESOME racing.

And heck it wouldn't even have prevented this particular case since it wasn't even borne out of a risky manoeuvre but out of a minor error. If you think that should be punished more harshly, you hate racing.


Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

With that kind of incident no penalty will stop it from happening again, it was a small lock up.

The risk of making that mistake is getting damage to the car and potentially retiring from the race, no penalty is going to make a driver think twice about pushing close to the limit of braking when that's the risk they're already taking.


Tiptoeing is an exaggeration. I don't see anything wrong with drivers being more careful in these kind of situations. I could live with racing being a tad less exciting if it meant the championship is decided in a more fair manner. Risking taking yourself out isn't enough of a deterrent and it's not relevant in a situation where you're not directly taking out your WDC opponent, but your teammate is. I'm not saying Kimi did it on purpose, but he should've been more careful when he knows he has a championship contender beside him.

If not harsher penalties, then why not a system where the victim is guaranteed a certain amount of points? For example, in this latest case, giving Lewis second place worth of points regardless of where or if he finishes.


Someone with a bit more experience than you says that Hamilton should have been more careful:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/44760651


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:59 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
mds wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

The penalty is meaningless - whether it's 5, 10 or 30 seconds. What prevents collisions from happening more often is the risk of taking out yourself as well.

Sure, you could impose very harsh penalties. And then what? Drivers tiptoeing? Not going for anything even remotely resembling of a risk anymore? Now that's going to be AWESOME racing.

And heck it wouldn't even have prevented this particular case since it wasn't even borne out of a risky manoeuvre but out of a minor error. If you think that should be punished more harshly, you hate racing.


Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

With that kind of incident no penalty will stop it from happening again, it was a small lock up.

The risk of making that mistake is getting damage to the car and potentially retiring from the race, no penalty is going to make a driver think twice about pushing close to the limit of braking when that's the risk they're already taking.


Tiptoeing is an exaggeration. I don't see anything wrong with drivers being more careful in these kind of situations. I could live with racing being a tad less exciting if it meant the championship is decided in a more fair manner. Risking taking yourself out isn't enough of a deterrent and it's not relevant in a situation where you're not directly taking out your WDC opponent, but your teammate is. I'm not saying Kimi did it on purpose, but he should've been more careful when he knows he has a championship contender beside him.

If not harsher penalties, then why not a system where the victim is guaranteed a certain amount of points? For example, in this latest case, giving Lewis second place worth of points regardless of where or if he finishes.

But that would be absurd. If you have Hamilton the points for P3 (where he was when he was hit) after 3 corners of racing that would make a complete joke of the race. It's where you finish after 52 laps that counts, not where you were when you hit some misfortune 3 corners in.

You'd end up with half the fields finishing positions decided on lap 1 with all the incidents and a finishing order that is completely different to the results.

Say Verstappen gets taken out from 3rd a couple of laps later, does he get 15 points as well as Hamilton?

Yeah I'd have to agree this sounds like a really half-baked idea. Anything can happen during a race and it's nonsense to award finishing points based on performance in the first three corners

Palmer's column referenced above makes some good points about the penalties in general:

In days of old, penalties weren't handed out at all for collisions during legitimate racing situations. There was high drama, and it was all good for the sport.

Maybe, in the same way as a footballer isn't sent off any more for a "genuine attempt to play the ball", a driver shouldn't be penalised for a genuine attempt to overtake or defend that leads to a mistake and contact.

I still fully endorse a penalty for any move that was dangerous or cynical. The equivalent of a red card in football. Indeed, perhaps these penalties could be harder.

Yes, a collision like the one on Sunday is unfair on Hamilton, and the French clash was unfair on Bottas. But sometimes that's racing. There wasn't any malice in the mistakes made by either Raikkonen or Vettel. They were racing hard for position and got it slightly wrong.


I agree that we shouldn't be looking to penalise a driver for every little thing, unless it's been judged to be cynical or malicious. No driver wants to be involved in an accident and IMO penalties for genuine mistakes don't really serve any purpose beyond some idea of revenge, which for me is not what penalties should be about. Make fewer penalties, not more


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:11 am 
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mds wrote:
Apart from my idea that there's something in this reasoning that's not as you meant to put it (what does Vettel have to do with this one - the "your teammate is" seems to point at something Vettel would have done?), I have no idea how the risk of ruining your own race is not enough of a deterrent. The drivers are out there to do as well as possible and ruining your own race is the polar opposite of that.


Well you do have a teammate, and the team is another reason you're out there. You're also driving and trying to do what's best for the team. It's absolutely something Vettel could have done, not being careful enough or risking too much at the start. People said the same thing about Max when he hit Ricciardo, that ruining his own race is punishment enough. That's not taking into account that he also ruined another drivers race. If the penalty is too lenient, it's more likely to happen again. I know that it's different from this case but harsher penalties would likely lead to them thinking twice next time.

Quote:
I don't agree. I mean, could he have been more careful even? He made a mistake, it logically follows from that that he assessed he would be able to make it.


You can always be more careful, and drivers usually are when they're up against their teammates. Do you think he would have been as agressive if it was Vettel he had next to him?

Quote:
Why do that given he was P3 to begin with from his own doing? Why do that when you have no idea how the rest of the race after T1 (well, T3 in this case) would have played out?

This is racing and you take the good with the bad.



Maybe the driver affected should get the points equivalent to his starting position, that's as close as you can get to estimating how things would have paned out. What do you think is more likely in a normal scenario, that Lewis ends up with no points or 1-2nd place? You can't know exactly how things would have unfolded but I don't see why this idea should be so outlandish. It would contribute to an accumulation of points that'd paint a more accurate picture of the drivers abilities.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:22 am 
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Ocon wrote:
Maybe the driver affected should get the points equivalent to his starting position, that's as close as you can get to estimating how things would have paned out. What do you think is more likely in a normal scenario, that Lewis ends up with no points or 1-2nd place? You can't know exactly how things would have unfolded but I don't see why this idea should be so outlandish. It would contribute to an accumulation of points that'd paint a more accurate picture of the drivers abilities.
the very race we're discussing demonstrates how silly that is. Hamilton was on pole but lost two places because he got too much wheelspin at the start, which is nobody's fault but his own. Giving him the points for his grid position would mean that Kimi was actually doing him a favour. Can't you see what a nonsense that would be?


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:29 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
mds wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

The penalty is meaningless - whether it's 5, 10 or 30 seconds. What prevents collisions from happening more often is the risk of taking out yourself as well.

Sure, you could impose very harsh penalties. And then what? Drivers tiptoeing? Not going for anything even remotely resembling of a risk anymore? Now that's going to be AWESOME racing.

And heck it wouldn't even have prevented this particular case since it wasn't even borne out of a risky manoeuvre but out of a minor error. If you think that should be punished more harshly, you hate racing.


Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

With that kind of incident no penalty will stop it from happening again, it was a small lock up.

The risk of making that mistake is getting damage to the car and potentially retiring from the race, no penalty is going to make a driver think twice about pushing close to the limit of braking when that's the risk they're already taking.


Tiptoeing is an exaggeration. I don't see anything wrong with drivers being more careful in these kind of situations. I could live with racing being a tad less exciting if it meant the championship is decided in a more fair manner. Risking taking yourself out isn't enough of a deterrent and it's not relevant in a situation where you're not directly taking out your WDC opponent, but your teammate is. I'm not saying Kimi did it on purpose, but he should've been more careful when he knows he has a championship contender beside him.

If not harsher penalties, then why not a system where the victim is guaranteed a certain amount of points? For example, in this latest case, giving Lewis second place worth of points regardless of where or if he finishes.

But that would be absurd. If you have Hamilton the points for P3 (where he was when he was hit) after 3 corners of racing that would make a complete joke of the race. It's where you finish after 52 laps that counts, not where you were when you hit some misfortune 3 corners in.

You'd end up with half the fields finishing positions decided on lap 1 with all the incidents and a finishing order that is completely different to the results.

Say Verstappen gets taken out from 3rd a couple of laps later, does he get 15 points as well as Hamilton?

Yeah I'd have to agree this sounds like a really half-baked idea. Anything can happen during a race and it's nonsense to award finishing points based on performance in the first three corners

Palmer's column referenced above makes some good points about the penalties in general:

In days of old, penalties weren't handed out at all for collisions during legitimate racing situations. There was high drama, and it was all good for the sport.

Maybe, in the same way as a footballer isn't sent off any more for a "genuine attempt to play the ball", a driver shouldn't be penalised for a genuine attempt to overtake or defend that leads to a mistake and contact.

I still fully endorse a penalty for any move that was dangerous or cynical. The equivalent of a red card in football. Indeed, perhaps these penalties could be harder.

Yes, a collision like the one on Sunday is unfair on Hamilton, and the French clash was unfair on Bottas. But sometimes that's racing. There wasn't any malice in the mistakes made by either Raikkonen or Vettel. They were racing hard for position and got it slightly wrong.


I agree that we shouldn't be looking to penalise a driver for every little thing, unless it's been judged to be cynical or malicious. No driver wants to be involved in an accident and IMO penalties for genuine mistakes don't really serve any purpose beyond some idea of revenge, which for me is not what penalties should be about. Make fewer penalties, not more



Black_Flag_11 wrote:
But that would be absurd. If you have Hamilton the points for P3 (where he was when he was hit) after 3 corners of racing that would make a complete joke of the race. It's where you finish after 52 laps that counts, not where you were when you hit some misfortune 3 corners in.

You'd end up with half the fields finishing positions decided on lap 1 with all the incidents and a finishing order that is completely different to the results.

Say Verstappen gets taken out from 3rd a couple of laps later, does he get 15 points as well as Hamilton?


I know it might sound crazy and it would be difficult to apply but you have to agree that it would give a more accurate picture of who actually deserves the WDC more at the end of the season.

There would have to be different variations to it depending on the severity of the incident, and how much it hampers the victim. My main concern is how the contenders are affected, so it would be best if it only applies to them. That's not possible though because you don't know at the start of the season who the contenders are gonna be.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:39 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Maybe the driver affected should get the points equivalent to his starting position, that's as close as you can get to estimating how things would have paned out. What do you think is more likely in a normal scenario, that Lewis ends up with no points or 1-2nd place? You can't know exactly how things would have unfolded but I don't see why this idea should be so outlandish. It would contribute to an accumulation of points that'd paint a more accurate picture of the drivers abilities.
the very race we're discussing demonstrates how silly that is. Hamilton was on pole but lost two places because he got too much wheelspin at the start, which is nobody's fault but his own. Giving him the points for his grid position would mean that Kimi was actually doing him a favour. Can't you see what a nonsense that would be?

:thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:41 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Maybe the driver affected should get the points equivalent to his starting position, that's as close as you can get to estimating how things would have paned out. What do you think is more likely in a normal scenario, that Lewis ends up with no points or 1-2nd place? You can't know exactly how things would have unfolded but I don't see why this idea should be so outlandish. It would contribute to an accumulation of points that'd paint a more accurate picture of the drivers abilities.
the very race we're discussing demonstrates how silly that is. Hamilton was on pole but lost two places because he got too much wheelspin at the start, which is nobody's fault but his own. Giving him the points for his grid position would mean that Kimi was actually doing him a favour. Can't you see what a nonsense that would be?

I do realise that it would be hard to apply, but like I said in my previous post, there would have to be variations to the rule, depending on the severity of the situation. My main point is that the victim should somehow be reimbursed.

Let's say that Hamilton got a DNF because of the crash. Do you still think Kimi would be doing him a favor?


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:41 am 
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Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Ocon wrote:

Tiptoeing is an exaggeration. I don't see anything wrong with drivers being more careful in these kind of situations. I could live with racing being a tad less exciting if it meant the championship is decided in a more fair manner. Risking taking yourself out isn't enough of a deterrent and it's not relevant in a situation where you're not directly taking out your WDC opponent, but your teammate is. I'm not saying Kimi did it on purpose, but he should've been more careful when he knows he has a championship contender beside him.

If not harsher penalties, then why not a system where the victim is guaranteed a certain amount of points? For example, in this latest case, giving Lewis second place worth of points regardless of where or if he finishes.

But that would be absurd. If you have Hamilton the points for P3 (where he was when he was hit) after 3 corners of racing that would make a complete joke of the race. It's where you finish after 52 laps that counts, not where you were when you hit some misfortune 3 corners in.

You'd end up with half the fields finishing positions decided on lap 1 with all the incidents and a finishing order that is completely different to the results.

Say Verstappen gets taken out from 3rd a couple of laps later, does he get 15 points as well as Hamilton?

Yeah I'd have to agree this sounds like a really half-baked idea. Anything can happen during a race and it's nonsense to award finishing points based on performance in the first three corners

Palmer's column referenced above makes some good points about the penalties in general:

In days of old, penalties weren't handed out at all for collisions during legitimate racing situations. There was high drama, and it was all good for the sport.

Maybe, in the same way as a footballer isn't sent off any more for a "genuine attempt to play the ball", a driver shouldn't be penalised for a genuine attempt to overtake or defend that leads to a mistake and contact.

I still fully endorse a penalty for any move that was dangerous or cynical. The equivalent of a red card in football. Indeed, perhaps these penalties could be harder.

Yes, a collision like the one on Sunday is unfair on Hamilton, and the French clash was unfair on Bottas. But sometimes that's racing. There wasn't any malice in the mistakes made by either Raikkonen or Vettel. They were racing hard for position and got it slightly wrong.


I agree that we shouldn't be looking to penalise a driver for every little thing, unless it's been judged to be cynical or malicious. No driver wants to be involved in an accident and IMO penalties for genuine mistakes don't really serve any purpose beyond some idea of revenge, which for me is not what penalties should be about. Make fewer penalties, not more



Black_Flag_11 wrote:
But that would be absurd. If you have Hamilton the points for P3 (where he was when he was hit) after 3 corners of racing that would make a complete joke of the race. It's where you finish after 52 laps that counts, not where you were when you hit some misfortune 3 corners in.

You'd end up with half the fields finishing positions decided on lap 1 with all the incidents and a finishing order that is completely different to the results.

Say Verstappen gets taken out from 3rd a couple of laps later, does he get 15 points as well as Hamilton?


I know it might sound crazy and it would be difficult to apply but you have to agree that it would give a more accurate picture of who actually deserves the WDC more at the end of the season.

There would have to be different variations to it depending on the severity of the incident, and how much it hampers the victim. My main concern is how the contenders are affected, so it would be best if it only applies to them. That's not possible though because you don't know at the start of the season who the contenders are gonna be.

I don't think it does, though. Say Hamilton won this year's title by one point and your suggestion had been implemented (assuming no other controversies throughout the year). He lost his position at the start to Vettel and there's little to no evidence that he would definitely have gained it back again during the race had he maintained his 3rd position after the 3rd corner. So by your method he would have not only gained an advantage by being hit by Kimi but would have won the WDC without actually deserving it on performance. How can this be deemed fair? And why should Vettel have his first place - and title! - taken away when he wasn't even involved in the incident and had beaten Lewis away from the line anyway? That doesn't reflect the WDC at all

And why stop there? Why only do that with racing incidents? Why not grant a driver a place if he has a puncture, which is clearly not his fault either? It would make an absolute mockery of drivers actually competing on track


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:52 am 
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Ocon wrote:

I know it might sound crazy and it would be difficult to apply but you have to agree that it would give a more accurate picture of who actually deserves the WDC more at the end of the season.

There would have to be different variations to it depending on the severity of the incident, and how much it hampers the victim. My main concern is how the contenders are affected, so it would be best if it only applies to them. That's not possible though because you don't know at the start of the season who the contenders are gonna be.


No it would not. Only a picture of who got that particular qualifying right. It does not reflect the WDC positions. And how about sessions that are affected half way through by rain. If Vettel or Hamilton qualify 15th because they got caught out by rain, how would that translate to their WDC positions?

It just does not make sense.

Your very last sentence is also confusing. The contender incidents treated differently than the rest? Are you really suggesting double standards?

You need to understand that the contenders are just drivers. It doesn't matter who it is, everyone receives the same penalty. Just because it is not the WDC it doesn't mean that the other drivers deserve less attention. They are fighting for points just the same. Everyone is fighting for something, for the small teams it is not just glory, it is pure survival.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:00 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Ocon wrote:

Tiptoeing is an exaggeration. I don't see anything wrong with drivers being more careful in these kind of situations. I could live with racing being a tad less exciting if it meant the championship is decided in a more fair manner. Risking taking yourself out isn't enough of a deterrent and it's not relevant in a situation where you're not directly taking out your WDC opponent, but your teammate is. I'm not saying Kimi did it on purpose, but he should've been more careful when he knows he has a championship contender beside him.

If not harsher penalties, then why not a system where the victim is guaranteed a certain amount of points? For example, in this latest case, giving Lewis second place worth of points regardless of where or if he finishes.

But that would be absurd. If you have Hamilton the points for P3 (where he was when he was hit) after 3 corners of racing that would make a complete joke of the race. It's where you finish after 52 laps that counts, not where you were when you hit some misfortune 3 corners in.

You'd end up with half the fields finishing positions decided on lap 1 with all the incidents and a finishing order that is completely different to the results.

Say Verstappen gets taken out from 3rd a couple of laps later, does he get 15 points as well as Hamilton?

Yeah I'd have to agree this sounds like a really half-baked idea. Anything can happen during a race and it's nonsense to award finishing points based on performance in the first three corners

Palmer's column referenced above makes some good points about the penalties in general:

In days of old, penalties weren't handed out at all for collisions during legitimate racing situations. There was high drama, and it was all good for the sport.

Maybe, in the same way as a footballer isn't sent off any more for a "genuine attempt to play the ball", a driver shouldn't be penalised for a genuine attempt to overtake or defend that leads to a mistake and contact.

I still fully endorse a penalty for any move that was dangerous or cynical. The equivalent of a red card in football. Indeed, perhaps these penalties could be harder.

Yes, a collision like the one on Sunday is unfair on Hamilton, and the French clash was unfair on Bottas. But sometimes that's racing. There wasn't any malice in the mistakes made by either Raikkonen or Vettel. They were racing hard for position and got it slightly wrong.


I agree that we shouldn't be looking to penalise a driver for every little thing, unless it's been judged to be cynical or malicious. No driver wants to be involved in an accident and IMO penalties for genuine mistakes don't really serve any purpose beyond some idea of revenge, which for me is not what penalties should be about. Make fewer penalties, not more



Black_Flag_11 wrote:
But that would be absurd. If you have Hamilton the points for P3 (where he was when he was hit) after 3 corners of racing that would make a complete joke of the race. It's where you finish after 52 laps that counts, not where you were when you hit some misfortune 3 corners in.

You'd end up with half the fields finishing positions decided on lap 1 with all the incidents and a finishing order that is completely different to the results.

Say Verstappen gets taken out from 3rd a couple of laps later, does he get 15 points as well as Hamilton?


I know it might sound crazy and it would be difficult to apply but you have to agree that it would give a more accurate picture of who actually deserves the WDC more at the end of the season.

There would have to be different variations to it depending on the severity of the incident, and how much it hampers the victim. My main concern is how the contenders are affected, so it would be best if it only applies to them. That's not possible though because you don't know at the start of the season who the contenders are gonna be.

I don't think it does, though. Say Hamilton won this year's title by one point and your suggestion had been implemented (assuming no other controversies throughout the year). He lost his position at the start to Vettel and there's little to no evidence that he would definitely have gained it back again during the race had he maintained his 3rd position after the 3rd corner. So by your method he would have not only gained an advantage by being hit by Kimi but would have won the WDC without actually deserving it on performance. How can this be deemed fair? And why should Vettel have his first place - and title! - taken away when he wasn't even involved in the incident and had beaten Lewis away from the line anyway? That doesn't reflect the WDC at all

And why stop there? Why only do that with racing incidents? Why not grant a driver a place if he has a puncture, which is clearly not his fault either? It would make an absolute mockery of drivers actually competing on track


Of course that wouldn't be fair either, but the margins are much smaller in your scenario. It would have to be very close before the last race for a couple of points to matter. While in contrast a DNF, especially if it's caused by your direct competitor creates a much larger swing in points.

On your last point about mechanical failures, that's different since no driver has any control of that. Giving points when the car fails would not be fair to the teams/car manufacturers.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:05 am 
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@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:14 am 
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Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
But that would be absurd. If you have Hamilton the points for P3 (where he was when he was hit) after 3 corners of racing that would make a complete joke of the race. It's where you finish after 52 laps that counts, not where you were when you hit some misfortune 3 corners in.

You'd end up with half the fields finishing positions decided on lap 1 with all the incidents and a finishing order that is completely different to the results.

Say Verstappen gets taken out from 3rd a couple of laps later, does he get 15 points as well as Hamilton?

Yeah I'd have to agree this sounds like a really half-baked idea. Anything can happen during a race and it's nonsense to award finishing points based on performance in the first three corners

Palmer's column referenced above makes some good points about the penalties in general:

In days of old, penalties weren't handed out at all for collisions during legitimate racing situations. There was high drama, and it was all good for the sport.

Maybe, in the same way as a footballer isn't sent off any more for a "genuine attempt to play the ball", a driver shouldn't be penalised for a genuine attempt to overtake or defend that leads to a mistake and contact.

I still fully endorse a penalty for any move that was dangerous or cynical. The equivalent of a red card in football. Indeed, perhaps these penalties could be harder.

Yes, a collision like the one on Sunday is unfair on Hamilton, and the French clash was unfair on Bottas. But sometimes that's racing. There wasn't any malice in the mistakes made by either Raikkonen or Vettel. They were racing hard for position and got it slightly wrong.


I agree that we shouldn't be looking to penalise a driver for every little thing, unless it's been judged to be cynical or malicious. No driver wants to be involved in an accident and IMO penalties for genuine mistakes don't really serve any purpose beyond some idea of revenge, which for me is not what penalties should be about. Make fewer penalties, not more



Black_Flag_11 wrote:
But that would be absurd. If you have Hamilton the points for P3 (where he was when he was hit) after 3 corners of racing that would make a complete joke of the race. It's where you finish after 52 laps that counts, not where you were when you hit some misfortune 3 corners in.

You'd end up with half the fields finishing positions decided on lap 1 with all the incidents and a finishing order that is completely different to the results.

Say Verstappen gets taken out from 3rd a couple of laps later, does he get 15 points as well as Hamilton?


I know it might sound crazy and it would be difficult to apply but you have to agree that it would give a more accurate picture of who actually deserves the WDC more at the end of the season.

There would have to be different variations to it depending on the severity of the incident, and how much it hampers the victim. My main concern is how the contenders are affected, so it would be best if it only applies to them. That's not possible though because you don't know at the start of the season who the contenders are gonna be.

I don't think it does, though. Say Hamilton won this year's title by one point and your suggestion had been implemented (assuming no other controversies throughout the year). He lost his position at the start to Vettel and there's little to no evidence that he would definitely have gained it back again during the race had he maintained his 3rd position after the 3rd corner. So by your method he would have not only gained an advantage by being hit by Kimi but would have won the WDC without actually deserving it on performance. How can this be deemed fair? And why should Vettel have his first place - and title! - taken away when he wasn't even involved in the incident and had beaten Lewis away from the line anyway? That doesn't reflect the WDC at all

And why stop there? Why only do that with racing incidents? Why not grant a driver a place if he has a puncture, which is clearly not his fault either? It would make an absolute mockery of drivers actually competing on track


Of course that wouldn't be fair either, but the margins are much smaller in your scenario. It would have to be very close before the last race for a couple of points to matter. While in contrast a DNF, especially if it's caused by your direct competitor creates a much larger swing in points.

On your last point about mechanical failures, that's different since no driver has any control of that. Giving points when the car fails would not be fair to the teams/car manufacturers.

But titles can be close. And if Hamilton had been gifted 1st place, then Vettel would presumably have been demoted to 2nd, which means a swing of 17 points, which would have been enough to change the title in a number of years.

And if a driver is guaranteed a position despite practically barely even turning a wheel at the start, then that would impact the entire strategy around his race. It wouldn't matter what he did, since he'd be guaranteed 1st place, but the team could use him to play interference for their other driver knowing that whatever he did his finishing position was in the bag. That could have significant consequences for other drivers who weren't even involved in the original incident. That's even more unfair. There's no part of this idea that is beneficial, except to the person being hit.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:36 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Ocon wrote:

I know it might sound crazy and it would be difficult to apply but you have to agree that it would give a more accurate picture of who actually deserves the WDC more at the end of the season.

There would have to be different variations to it depending on the severity of the incident, and how much it hampers the victim. My main concern is how the contenders are affected, so it would be best if it only applies to them. That's not possible though because you don't know at the start of the season who the contenders are gonna be.


No it would not. Only a picture of who got that particular qualifying right. It does not reflect the WDC positions. And how about sessions that are affected half way through by rain. If Vettel or Hamilton qualify 15th because they got caught out by rain, how would that translate to their WDC positions?

It just does not make sense.

Your very last sentence is also confusing. The contender incidents treated differently than the rest? Are you really suggesting double standards?

You need to understand that the contenders are just drivers. It doesn't matter who it is, everyone receives the same penalty. Just because it is not the WDC it doesn't mean that the other drivers deserve less attention. They are fighting for points just the same. Everyone is fighting for something, for the small teams it is not just glory, it is pure survival.

So you think Hamilton getting 0 points rather than the equivalent of 1-5 position is more accurate than what the outcome would have normally been?

That's a good point though about rain. There would have to be some exception or modification of the rules, since that would mean if one of Vettel or Lewis get in 15 th because of that, and then manages to get up to third in the race and get taken out, it wouldn't be fair to get only starting position points.

I definitely think the contenders should be treated differently. You would think most people watch F1 to see the fight upfront, so naturally you'd want for them to have as fair of a chance to win as possible, even if it means some of the slower cars are affected.

You probably don't remember but we had this same debate before about the front runners being treated differently than the backmarkers. You argued that the backmarkers shouldn't have to give up their place right away if they're in the middle of a fight with another car or something of that nature. While I was in favor of not compromising the race of the WDC contenders no matter how much it affects the slower cars. So we obviously won't agree on this.


Last edited by Ocon on Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:37 am 
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Edit: dp.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:47 am 
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Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.

But it still has the potential to compromise other drivers who weren't even involved in the incident. That's even more unfair.

The whole point of having a race, instead of just deciding results on qualifying positions, is that anything can and will happen over those 305km and it's down to the drivers to show how good they are over a race distance. Handing out points before they've even reached halfway through the first lap makes all that redundant.

Yes, being hit by another driver is unfortunate. But there's no reason to punish other drivers as a result and it's no more unfair than a driver suffering a puncture or mechanical breakdown. And what if you're hit by a team mate? You can imagine just how open to abuse that could be

I'm sorry, but I don't see any positives in this at all. It would make the end result very confusing for those watching (yes, folks, Hamilton finished 1st despite retiring on the 1st corner!) and has the potential to make an unfair situation for one driver become a very unfair situation for several. It's just passing the misfortune around to drivers who don't deserve to be penalized. Scoring would be a lottery


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:01 pm 
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@Zoue

I will answer your posts later, have to go now.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

I will answer your posts later, have to go now.

no worries. Not on a deadline :D


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:05 pm 
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Wow, just wow.

If we're going to take luck completely out of the championship then why not just have qualifying in Australia and award the title and points accordingly. Honestly, this may be the single stupidest idea I've ever read on this forum and that's saying something!

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.

But it still has the potential to compromise other drivers who weren't even involved in the incident. That's even more unfair.

The whole point of having a race, instead of just deciding results on qualifying positions, is that anything can and will happen over those 305km and it's down to the drivers to show how good they are over a race distance. Handing out points before they've even reached halfway through the first lap makes all that redundant.

Yes, being hit by another driver is unfortunate. But there's no reason to punish other drivers as a result and it's no more unfair than a driver suffering a puncture or mechanical breakdown. And what if you're hit by a team mate? You can imagine just how open to abuse that could be

I'm sorry, but I don't see any positives in this at all. It would make the end result very confusing for those watching (yes, folks, Hamilton finished 1st despite retiring on the 1st corner!) and has the potential to make an unfair situation for one driver become a very unfair situation for several. It's just passing the misfortune around to drivers who don't deserve to be penalized. Scoring would be a lottery


I realize now after being made aware of how many aspects can be affected, that it would be difficult to make it work without issues. At first I thought for this to be only for the WDC contenders so it sounded simple. Although I still maintain that if the affected driver is a WDC contender, there should be a way to make the point loss less impactful for the victim. If nothing is possible to be done for the driver who is affected then the penalties should be harsher to avoid it happening again.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Ocon wrote:

I know it might sound crazy and it would be difficult to apply but you have to agree that it would give a more accurate picture of who actually deserves the WDC more at the end of the season.

There would have to be different variations to it depending on the severity of the incident, and how much it hampers the victim. My main concern is how the contenders are affected, so it would be best if it only applies to them. That's not possible though because you don't know at the start of the season who the contenders are gonna be.


No it would not. Only a picture of who got that particular qualifying right. It does not reflect the WDC positions. And how about sessions that are affected half way through by rain. If Vettel or Hamilton qualify 15th because they got caught out by rain, how would that translate to their WDC positions?

It just does not make sense.

Your very last sentence is also confusing. The contender incidents treated differently than the rest? Are you really suggesting double standards?

You need to understand that the contenders are just drivers. It doesn't matter who it is, everyone receives the same penalty. Just because it is not the WDC it doesn't mean that the other drivers deserve less attention. They are fighting for points just the same. Everyone is fighting for something, for the small teams it is not just glory, it is pure survival.

So you think Hamilton getting 0 points rather than the equivalent of 1-5 position is more accurate than what the outcome would have normally been?

That's a good point though about rain. There would have to be some exception or modification of the rules, since that would mean if one of Vettel or Lewis get in 15 th because of that, and then manages to get up to third in the race and get taken out, it wouldn't be fair to get only starting position points.

I definitely think the contenders should be treated differently. You would think most people watch F1 to see the fight upfront, so naturally you'd want for them to have as fair of a chance to win as possible, even if it means some of the slower cars are affected.

You probably don't remember but we had this same debate before about the front runners being treated differently than the backmarkers. You argued that the backmarkers shouldn't have to give up their place right away if they're in the middle of a fight with another car or something of that nature. While I was in favor of not compromising the race of the WDC contenders no matter how much it affects the slower cars. So we obviously won't agree on this.


For the bold bit, I am confused. Hamilton got 2nd place, not 0 points. In the event that he was taken out, yes, I'd prefer that rather than artificially give places to a car when it did not finish there. If a car is taken out, then tough. This holds for all sports; if a football player is injured they don't reschedule the game for him. They don't re-do a hole in golf if you throw your ball in the little lake. It's just how it is. Crashes, failures, mistakes, they are all part of the game. Otherwise they'd do sim racing.

I think you are missing something here: if one driver is compromised and loses his position for whatever reason, then it is bad for him. This is true, very unfortunate. But awarding this driver an arbitrary position (god knows how they will accurately decide that) is bad and unfair to EVERYONE behind him. I could not care less if he is the WDC leader or the last car, they are all sharing the same track and the same rules.

Also, why would you have 20 cars then if you are only interested in the front 4? Everyone is equal, no two-tier championship awarded in F1.

Regarding the backmarkers, it's a different thing altogether to this conversation. You are right, I can't remember that conversation!


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.

But it still has the potential to compromise other drivers who weren't even involved in the incident. That's even more unfair.

The whole point of having a race, instead of just deciding results on qualifying positions, is that anything can and will happen over those 305km and it's down to the drivers to show how good they are over a race distance. Handing out points before they've even reached halfway through the first lap makes all that redundant.

Yes, being hit by another driver is unfortunate. But there's no reason to punish other drivers as a result and it's no more unfair than a driver suffering a puncture or mechanical breakdown. And what if you're hit by a team mate? You can imagine just how open to abuse that could be

I'm sorry, but I don't see any positives in this at all. It would make the end result very confusing for those watching (yes, folks, Hamilton finished 1st despite retiring on the 1st corner!) and has the potential to make an unfair situation for one driver become a very unfair situation for several. It's just passing the misfortune around to drivers who don't deserve to be penalized. Scoring would be a lottery


I realize now after being made aware of how many aspects can be affected, that it would be difficult to make it work without issues. At first I thought for this to be only for the WDC contenders so it sounded simple. Although I still maintain that if the affected driver is a WDC contender, there should be a way to make the point loss less impactful for the victim. If nothing is possible to be done for the driver who is affected then the penalties should be harsher to avoid it happening again.


But this was a first lap incident. A locked wheel is not going to be avoided by a harsher penalty, it is a mistake and it will happen again. The only thing that will be achieved is drivers being afraid to go for it in fear of a harsh penalty that will ruin their race.

Also, consider that in first lap incidents, if you receive any penalty, it will potentially put you at the end of the pack anyway, since the cars are still somewhat bunched up. The 5 or 10 seconds penalties are deterrents enough to ruin races and strategies.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.


Of course, you have no idea just where the driver might have finished had there been no incident. What you are proposing could place a driver higher than he would have been anyway.

Also... Ocon, remember that even Lewis has on occasion made a mistake. Will you be so adamant about draconian penalties if Lewis or Bottas take out Vettel? I have my doubts.

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.


Of course, you have no idea just where the driver might have finished had there been no incident. What you are proposing could place a driver higher than he would have been anyway.

Also... Ocon, remember that even Lewis has on occasion made a mistake. Will you be so adamant about draconian penalties if Lewis or Bottas take out Vettel? I have my doubts.



Surely all that would happen would be when ever you are in a higher position than usual, you would be hoping to be taken out. That would mean you could tootle around at the back, and not even attempt to get back through the field because you are guaranteed the higher spot.

Whilst trying not to be too critical - it's a poor idea that is far too open to abuse.

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:30 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Wow, just wow.

If we're going to take luck completely out of the championship then why not just have qualifying in Australia and award the title and points accordingly. Honestly, this may be the single stupidest idea I've ever read on this forum and that's saying something!


You are going to extremes here, it's not like it would be happening all the time in every race. You can go the other way and say, why don't we let drivers punt each other of the track at will without any meaningful punishment. You might as well pick the winner out of a hat.

To answer your question, you wouldn't be taking luck completely out of the championship. Failures, punctures, weather and plenty of other things are a factor too.

I'm not interested in having random outcomes without the drivers ability counting for anything. That's why I hate when people are calling for safety cars to make it more interesting. It just becomes a lottery that way. Maybe some care more about being entertained than seeing the fastest driver win.

Imagine if you're a driver and you lose the championship in the last race of the season because you got punted of the track by your main contender. I bet you would be singing a different tune then.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.

But it still has the potential to compromise other drivers who weren't even involved in the incident. That's even more unfair.

The whole point of having a race, instead of just deciding results on qualifying positions, is that anything can and will happen over those 305km and it's down to the drivers to show how good they are over a race distance. Handing out points before they've even reached halfway through the first lap makes all that redundant.

Yes, being hit by another driver is unfortunate. But there's no reason to punish other drivers as a result and it's no more unfair than a driver suffering a puncture or mechanical breakdown. And what if you're hit by a team mate? You can imagine just how open to abuse that could be

I'm sorry, but I don't see any positives in this at all. It would make the end result very confusing for those watching (yes, folks, Hamilton finished 1st despite retiring on the 1st corner!) and has the potential to make an unfair situation for one driver become a very unfair situation for several. It's just passing the misfortune around to drivers who don't deserve to be penalized. Scoring would be a lottery


I realize now after being made aware of how many aspects can be affected, that it would be difficult to make it work without issues. At first I thought for this to be only for the WDC contenders so it sounded simple. Although I still maintain that if the affected driver is a WDC contender, there should be a way to make the point loss less impactful for the victim. If nothing is possible to be done for the driver who is affected then the penalties should be harsher to avoid it happening again.


But this was a first lap incident. A locked wheel is not going to be avoided by a harsher penalty, it is a mistake and it will happen again. The only thing that will be achieved is drivers being afraid to go for it in fear of a harsh penalty that will ruin their race.

Also, consider that in first lap incidents, if you receive any penalty, it will potentially put you at the end of the pack anyway, since the cars are still somewhat bunched up. The 5 or 10 seconds penalties are deterrents enough to ruin races and strategies.

That's the reason why I suggested some kind of system where the victim gets something back instead of the offender getting penalised. But like others have said, it would be difficult to apply without many other things being affected. Harsher penalties would promote cleaner racing though, but it would mean a bit less excitement though.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.

But it still has the potential to compromise other drivers who weren't even involved in the incident. That's even more unfair.

The whole point of having a race, instead of just deciding results on qualifying positions, is that anything can and will happen over those 305km and it's down to the drivers to show how good they are over a race distance. Handing out points before they've even reached halfway through the first lap makes all that redundant.

Yes, being hit by another driver is unfortunate. But there's no reason to punish other drivers as a result and it's no more unfair than a driver suffering a puncture or mechanical breakdown. And what if you're hit by a team mate? You can imagine just how open to abuse that could be

I'm sorry, but I don't see any positives in this at all. It would make the end result very confusing for those watching (yes, folks, Hamilton finished 1st despite retiring on the 1st corner!) and has the potential to make an unfair situation for one driver become a very unfair situation for several. It's just passing the misfortune around to drivers who don't deserve to be penalized. Scoring would be a lottery


I realize now after being made aware of how many aspects can be affected, that it would be difficult to make it work without issues. At first I thought for this to be only for the WDC contenders so it sounded simple. Although I still maintain that if the affected driver is a WDC contender, there should be a way to make the point loss less impactful for the victim. If nothing is possible to be done for the driver who is affected then the penalties should be harsher to avoid it happening again.


But this was a first lap incident. A locked wheel is not going to be avoided by a harsher penalty, it is a mistake and it will happen again. The only thing that will be achieved is drivers being afraid to go for it in fear of a harsh penalty that will ruin their race.

Also, consider that in first lap incidents, if you receive any penalty, it will potentially put you at the end of the pack anyway, since the cars are still somewhat bunched up. The 5 or 10 seconds penalties are deterrents enough to ruin races and strategies.

That's the reason why I suggested some kind of system where the victim gets something back instead of the offender getting penalised. But like others have said, it would be difficult to apply without many other things being affected. Harsher penalties would promote cleaner racing though, but it would mean a bit less excitement though.


I was never a fan of this strategy, the victim can't get anything back. That moment is gone forever, you can't quantify what would the victim deserve in any shape or form. From lap one to lap 52 (here) there are many many things that can happen. Only last weekend both Mercedes were out by mechanical failures. There is absolutely not way to predict without a doubt where the driver would end up. And as mentioned before, without being unfair to the rest of the field.

For the bold part; how would a harsher penalty prevent a driver being boxed in and locking up ending in a small contact? The only thing that would promote would be a very very careful boring first lap with drivers tiptoeing, not exciting as you said. No the racing I want to see anyway


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.


Of course, you have no idea just where the driver might have finished had there been no incident. What you are proposing could place a driver higher than he would have been anyway.

Also... Ocon, remember that even Lewis has on occasion made a mistake. Will you be so adamant about draconian penalties if Lewis or Bottas take out Vettel? I have my doubts.

You don't know of course, but he certainly would be much closer to full points than no points. When I thought of this, I was only thinking of it to be for the contenders so it wouldn't be so complicated.

I would definitely be in favor of harsher penalties even if it's Lewis. My main concern is for the best driver to get as fair a chance as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Herb wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.


Of course, you have no idea just where the driver might have finished had there been no incident. What you are proposing could place a driver higher than he would have been anyway.

Also... Ocon, remember that even Lewis has on occasion made a mistake. Will you be so adamant about draconian penalties if Lewis or Bottas take out Vettel? I have my doubts.



Surely all that would happen would be when ever you are in a higher position than usual, you would be hoping to be taken out. That would mean you could tootle around at the back, and not even attempt to get back through the field because you are guaranteed the higher spot.

Whilst trying not to be too critical - it's a poor idea that is far too open to abuse.

What about getting just a few points though? Surely that would be doable. If one of the contenders gets taken out and winds up at the back or DNF. He gets guaranteed like 2-3 points or something. Just to not create a swing to large between the WDC contenders.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.


Of course, you have no idea just where the driver might have finished had there been no incident. What you are proposing could place a driver higher than he would have been anyway.

Also... Ocon, remember that even Lewis has on occasion made a mistake. Will you be so adamant about draconian penalties if Lewis or Bottas take out Vettel? I have my doubts.

You don't know of course, but he certainly would be much closer to full points than no points. When I thought of this, I was only thinking of it to be for the contenders so it wouldn't be so complicated.

I would definitely be in favor of harsher penalties even if it's Lewis. My main concern is for the best driver to get as fair a chance as possible.


It should be ALL drivers getting as fair a chance as possible. Not disadvantaging the rest just for the best driver to get some points.

The way I see it, the best drivers have the best cars, it is an advantage enough already. See the last race, Hamilton went dead last and he still carved his way through to 2nd place. I can't say that this was an unfair chance, his car advantage made sure that he finished even higher than where he was when he was taken out. So with your way he would have lost points. It is just too arbitrary, you can't predict where the driver would end up


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:20 pm 
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750k2 wrote:
Where were all these people when ham was running Nico off the road?
Bangin with Massa?
Let them have at it - or go to Ilse of Mann style and race the clock.

:thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:

I was never a fan of this strategy, the victim can't get anything back. That moment is gone forever, you can't quantify what would the victim deserve in any shape or form. From lap one to lap 52 (here) there are many many things that can happen. Only last weekend both Mercedes were out by mechanical failures. There is absolutely not way to predict without a doubt where the driver would end up. And as mentioned before, without being unfair to the rest of the field.

For the bold part; how would a harsher penalty prevent a driver being boxed in and locking up ending in a small contact? The only thing that would promote would be a very very careful boring first lap with drivers tiptoeing, not exciting as you said. No the racing I want to see anyway


Like I said before, I already aknowledged the fact that you can't know where the affected driver would have ended up. If it's Lewis or Seb though, chances are they would be very high up. And if it results in a DNF, chances are also huge that they've been robbed. I don't think it would be the end of the world if said driver gets atleast 2-3 points in case of a DNF caused by another driver. The problem with that is, you don't always know who the contenders are gonna be.

I wouldn't mind seeing them be more careful at the start actually. I know it's not easy to overtake after that but the race is still long and it's how the saying goes. A race is not won on the first lap.


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