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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:29 pm 
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750k2 wrote:
Where were all these people when ham was running Nico off the road?
Bangin with Massa?
Let them have at it - or go to Ilse of Mann style and race the clock.

I still existed even then, it's just that I wasn't active on this forum. Although I was still a Kimi fan back then, and I still am but I decided to jump on the Hamilton bandwagon. :) But anyway I didn't agree with it at that point either.

Regarding your last comment, I wouldn't mind seeing that for a season. Everyone in the same car and racing the clock. That way we can end the debate of who's the better driver once and for all.


Last edited by Ocon on Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:40 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.


Of course, you have no idea just where the driver might have finished had there been no incident. What you are proposing could place a driver higher than he would have been anyway.

Also... Ocon, remember that even Lewis has on occasion made a mistake. Will you be so adamant about draconian penalties if Lewis or Bottas take out Vettel? I have my doubts.

You don't know of course, but he certainly would be much closer to full points than no points. When I thought of this, I was only thinking of it to be for the contenders so it wouldn't be so complicated.

I would definitely be in favor of harsher penalties even if it's Lewis. My main concern is for the best driver to get as fair a chance as possible.


It should be ALL drivers getting as fair a chance as possible. Not disadvantaging the rest just for the best driver to get some points.

The way I see it, the best drivers have the best cars, it is an advantage enough already. See the last race, Hamilton went dead last and he still carved his way through to 2nd place. I can't say that this was an unfair chance, his car advantage made sure that he finished even higher than where he was when he was taken out. So with your way he would have lost points. It is just too arbitrary, you can't predict where the driver would end up

Of course having the best cars is a major advantage but people watch F1 mainly to see the battle at the front. I think as much as possible should be done to not compromise the race of the WDC contenders.
When I say unfair I mean regarding the WDC battle. I don't want it to be decided by someone taking out one of Hamilton or Vettel. That's why I said for the one that's been taken out to still get a couple of points even if they don't manage to break into the points or get DNF.

Yeah he did finish higher but I wouldn't bet on that happening ever again.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.


Of course, you have no idea just where the driver might have finished had there been no incident. What you are proposing could place a driver higher than he would have been anyway.

Also... Ocon, remember that even Lewis has on occasion made a mistake. Will you be so adamant about draconian penalties if Lewis or Bottas take out Vettel? I have my doubts.

You don't know of course, but he certainly would be much closer to full points than no points. When I thought of this, I was only thinking of it to be for the contenders so it wouldn't be so complicated.

I would definitely be in favor of harsher penalties even if it's Lewis. My main concern is for the best driver to get as fair a chance as possible.


It should be ALL drivers getting as fair a chance as possible. Not disadvantaging the rest just for the best driver to get some points.

The way I see it, the best drivers have the best cars, it is an advantage enough already. See the last race, Hamilton went dead last and he still carved his way through to 2nd place. I can't say that this was an unfair chance, his car advantage made sure that he finished even higher than where he was when he was taken out. So with your way he would have lost points. It is just too arbitrary, you can't predict where the driver would end up

When I say unfair I mean regarding the WDC battle. I don't want it to be decided by someone taking out one of Hamilton or Vettel. That's why I said for the one that's been taken out to still get a couple of points even if they don't manage to break into the points or get DNF.

Yeah he did finish higher but I wouldn't bet on that happening ever again.


For the bold part, ok I got you. I do understand what you are on about, I just can't see how this would be implemented. The last idea, the 2-3 points awarded in case of a DNF because of someone else is not a bad idea in itself.

The problem I can see with that is the unpredictability of the race. A DNF as you describe it would give 2-3 points. But there is no guarantee that without the shunt the driver would have finished in the first place; it happened in only the previous race where the Merc failed and had a DNF. Then Hamilton would have had 3 points, unfairly. You just cannot predict what happens in a race. If we start with the if's and but's then we are opening a can of worms.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:45 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
Imagine if you're a driver and you lose the championship in the last race of the season because you got punted of the track by your main contender. I bet you would be singing a different tune then.


It has happened.

Speaking of "singing a different tune", wiki you be as vociferous on this subject when a certain Ferrari driver is on the receiving end? I haven't noticed your passion in the past when it wasn't Lewis being affected... Perhaps I missed it?
;)

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:45 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:

For the bold part, ok I got you. I do understand what you are on about, I just can't see how this would be implemented. The last idea, the 2-3 points awarded in case of a DNF because of someone else is not a bad idea in itself.

The problem I can see with that is the unpredictability of the race. A DNF as you describe it would give 2-3 points. But there is no guarantee that without the shunt the driver would have finished in the first place; it happened in only the previous race where the Merc failed and had a DNF. Then Hamilton would have had 3 points, unfairly. You just cannot predict what happens in a race. If we start with the if's and but's then we are opening a can of worms.


Of course you can never know how the race would have unfolded. But the idea is that you'd assume the driver would have finished without issues as that'd be the highest probability. That's the problem though, it would be difficult to implement.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Imagine if you're a driver and you lose the championship in the last race of the season because you got punted of the track by your main contender. I bet you would be singing a different tune then.


It has happened.

Speaking of "singing a different tune", wiki you be as vociferous on this subject when a certain Ferrari driver is on the receiving end? I haven't noticed your passion in the past when it wasn't Lewis being affected... Perhaps I missed it?
;)


You probably haven't noticed it because I don't usually get involved that much in discussions on the forum other than the race threads. Those are just comments made in the heat of the moment. When I have longer to think about it, I realise that there's no point being happy about Vettel having whatever kind of bad luck. I'd rather Hamilton beats him fair and square.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
mds wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

The penalty is meaningless - whether it's 5, 10 or 30 seconds. What prevents collisions from happening more often is the risk of taking out yourself as well.

Sure, you could impose very harsh penalties. And then what? Drivers tiptoeing? Not going for anything even remotely resembling of a risk anymore? Now that's going to be AWESOME racing.

And heck it wouldn't even have prevented this particular case since it wasn't even borne out of a risky manoeuvre but out of a minor error. If you think that should be punished more harshly, you hate racing.


Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I think the fact that it's a championship contender being taken out by their direct rivals should be taken into account when determining the penalty. 10 seconds is a joke imo, that kind of penalty won't prevent it from happening again.

With that kind of incident no penalty will stop it from happening again, it was a small lock up.

The risk of making that mistake is getting damage to the car and potentially retiring from the race, no penalty is going to make a driver think twice about pushing close to the limit of braking when that's the risk they're already taking.


Tiptoeing is an exaggeration. I don't see anything wrong with drivers being more careful in these kind of situations. I could live with racing being a tad less exciting if it meant the championship is decided in a more fair manner. Risking taking yourself out isn't enough of a deterrent and it's not relevant in a situation where you're not directly taking out your WDC opponent, but your teammate is. I'm not saying Kimi did it on purpose, but he should've been more careful when he knows he has a championship contender beside him.

If not harsher penalties, then why not a system where the victim is guaranteed a certain amount of points? For example, in this latest case, giving Lewis second place worth of points regardless of where or if he finishes.


Someone with a bit more experience than you says that Hamilton should have been more careful:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/44760651

Good column. Like I said earlier the fact it was Hamilton made it more punishable an event than had it been Bottas (Villeneuve has said the same thing) and Palmer makes a good point here too:
"It was the same when Romain Grosjean crashed with Carlos Sainz at Copse on Sunday. It was a much faster corner, and a much bigger accident. But the decision to judge it a racing incident was the right verdict, even though it was technically Grosjean's moment of oversteer that meant he drifted into a vulnerable Sainz.

Fundamentally, what is the difference between that and the Raikkonen and Vettel clashes? The driver on the inside was technically left enough room to make it around the corner but a small error, or excess speed, meant they ran wider and hit the car on the outside."

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Wow, just wow.

If we're going to take luck completely out of the championship then why not just have qualifying in Australia and award the title and points accordingly. Honestly, this may be the single stupidest idea I've ever read on this forum and that's saying something!


You are going to extremes here, it's not like it would be happening all the time in every race. You can go the other way and say, why don't we let drivers punt each other of the track at will without any meaningful punishment. You might as well pick the winner out of a hat.

To answer your question, you wouldn't be taking luck completely out of the championship. Failures, punctures, weather and plenty of other things are a factor too.

I'm not interested in having random outcomes without the drivers ability counting for anything. That's why I hate when people are calling for safety cars to make it more interesting. It just becomes a lottery that way. Maybe some care more about being entertained than seeing the fastest driver win.

Imagine if you're a driver and you lose the championship in the last race of the season because you got punted of the track by your main contender. I bet you would be singing a different tune then.


Okay, how are we defining 'Championship contenders' exactly? Is it just going to be Red Bulls, Ferrari, and Merc. Or is it just Vettel and Hamilton? What about Max and Kimi... Bottas, Riciardo? Who is a 'title contender' at the first race or does this system only kick in after some randomly chosen point in the season?

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:28 pm 
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free points because you got ran into? no.way.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:23 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGldmdVxXEY


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:10 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Ocon wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Wow, just wow.

If we're going to take luck completely out of the championship then why not just have qualifying in Australia and award the title and points accordingly. Honestly, this may be the single stupidest idea I've ever read on this forum and that's saying something!


You are going to extremes here, it's not like it would be happening all the time in every race. You can go the other way and say, why don't we let drivers punt each other of the track at will without any meaningful punishment. You might as well pick the winner out of a hat.

To answer your question, you wouldn't be taking luck completely out of the championship. Failures, punctures, weather and plenty of other things are a factor too.

I'm not interested in having random outcomes without the drivers ability counting for anything. That's why I hate when people are calling for safety cars to make it more interesting. It just becomes a lottery that way. Maybe some care more about being entertained than seeing the fastest driver win.

Imagine if you're a driver and you lose the championship in the last race of the season because you got punted of the track by your main contender. I bet you would be singing a different tune then.


Okay, how are we defining 'Championship contenders' exactly? Is it just going to be Red Bulls, Ferrari, and Merc. Or is it just Vettel and Hamilton? What about Max and Kimi... Bottas, Riciardo? Who is a 'title contender' at the first race or does this system only kick in after some randomly chosen point in the season?

I mentioned in some of my posts that this amongst other issues which others have brought up, would make it difficult to apply. Obviously I didn't think far enough when I thought of this. Regardless though, I would still like either harsher penalties or whatever else that can be done to protect the front runners.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:31 am 
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Ocon wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Ocon wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Wow, just wow.

If we're going to take luck completely out of the championship then why not just have qualifying in Australia and award the title and points accordingly. Honestly, this may be the single stupidest idea I've ever read on this forum and that's saying something!


You are going to extremes here, it's not like it would be happening all the time in every race. You can go the other way and say, why don't we let drivers punt each other of the track at will without any meaningful punishment. You might as well pick the winner out of a hat.

To answer your question, you wouldn't be taking luck completely out of the championship. Failures, punctures, weather and plenty of other things are a factor too.

I'm not interested in having random outcomes without the drivers ability counting for anything. That's why I hate when people are calling for safety cars to make it more interesting. It just becomes a lottery that way. Maybe some care more about being entertained than seeing the fastest driver win.

Imagine if you're a driver and you lose the championship in the last race of the season because you got punted of the track by your main contender. I bet you would be singing a different tune then.


Okay, how are we defining 'Championship contenders' exactly? Is it just going to be Red Bulls, Ferrari, and Merc. Or is it just Vettel and Hamilton? What about Max and Kimi... Bottas, Riciardo? Who is a 'title contender' at the first race or does this system only kick in after some randomly chosen point in the season?

I mentioned in some of my posts that this amongst other issues which others have brought up, would make it difficult to apply. Obviously I didn't think far enough when I thought of this. Regardless though, I would still like either harsher penalties or whatever else that can be done to protect the front runners.


You did indeed and kudos for recognising this. I think the problem is the last sentence. I don't believe that any driver should have special treatment. If some backmarkers want to jump out of the way then fine, if the teams agree to this before the race then fine again (although a bit of a mockery). But this shouldn't change the penalties that drivers get, they should all get the same treatment.

There is no sport that I can think of that protects just the stars compared to the rest when handing out penalties. Also, mathematically, they are pretty much all contenders until past mid season I guess


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:54 am 
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Ocon wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Ocon wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Wow, just wow.

If we're going to take luck completely out of the championship then why not just have qualifying in Australia and award the title and points accordingly. Honestly, this may be the single stupidest idea I've ever read on this forum and that's saying something!


You are going to extremes here, it's not like it would be happening all the time in every race. You can go the other way and say, why don't we let drivers punt each other of the track at will without any meaningful punishment. You might as well pick the winner out of a hat.

To answer your question, you wouldn't be taking luck completely out of the championship. Failures, punctures, weather and plenty of other things are a factor too.

I'm not interested in having random outcomes without the drivers ability counting for anything. That's why I hate when people are calling for safety cars to make it more interesting. It just becomes a lottery that way. Maybe some care more about being entertained than seeing the fastest driver win.

Imagine if you're a driver and you lose the championship in the last race of the season because you got punted of the track by your main contender. I bet you would be singing a different tune then.


Okay, how are we defining 'Championship contenders' exactly? Is it just going to be Red Bulls, Ferrari, and Merc. Or is it just Vettel and Hamilton? What about Max and Kimi... Bottas, Riciardo? Who is a 'title contender' at the first race or does this system only kick in after some randomly chosen point in the season?

I mentioned in some of my posts that this amongst other issues which others have brought up, would make it difficult to apply. Obviously I didn't think far enough when I thought of this. Regardless though, I would still like either harsher penalties or whatever else that can be done to protect the front runners.

Why should we protect any runners more than others? As I've said before I think they should be treated the same from the first to the last race and wherever they are in the championship.

If Hamilton or Vettel cause an accident meaning another team loses a place in the WCC it could cause a massive financial headache that isn't their fault, do you think they should be let off because they are fighting for the championship and we "don't want to interfere in the championship", whereas if a driver from the same lower team punts one of them off we should throw the book at them because they did "interfere in the championship"?


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:30 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Ocon wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Ocon wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Wow, just wow.

If we're going to take luck completely out of the championship then why not just have qualifying in Australia and award the title and points accordingly. Honestly, this may be the single stupidest idea I've ever read on this forum and that's saying something!


You are going to extremes here, it's not like it would be happening all the time in every race. You can go the other way and say, why don't we let drivers punt each other of the track at will without any meaningful punishment. You might as well pick the winner out of a hat.

To answer your question, you wouldn't be taking luck completely out of the championship. Failures, punctures, weather and plenty of other things are a factor too.

I'm not interested in having random outcomes without the drivers ability counting for anything. That's why I hate when people are calling for safety cars to make it more interesting. It just becomes a lottery that way. Maybe some care more about being entertained than seeing the fastest driver win.

Imagine if you're a driver and you lose the championship in the last race of the season because you got punted of the track by your main contender. I bet you would be singing a different tune then.


Okay, how are we defining 'Championship contenders' exactly? Is it just going to be Red Bulls, Ferrari, and Merc. Or is it just Vettel and Hamilton? What about Max and Kimi... Bottas, Riciardo? Who is a 'title contender' at the first race or does this system only kick in after some randomly chosen point in the season?

I mentioned in some of my posts that this amongst other issues which others have brought up, would make it difficult to apply. Obviously I didn't think far enough when I thought of this. Regardless though, I would still like either harsher penalties or whatever else that can be done to protect the front runners.

Why should we protect any runners more than others? As I've said before I think they should be treated the same from the first to the last race and wherever they are in the championship.

If Hamilton or Vettel cause an accident meaning another team loses a place in the WCC it could cause a massive financial headache that isn't their fault, do you think they should be let off because they are fighting for the championship and we "don't want to interfere in the championship", whereas if a driver from the same lower team punts one of them off we should throw the book at them because they did "interfere in the championship"?


You make a very good point, I did not think of that myself. Where does the leniency towards the front runners stop? They do not need pampering


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:37 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Why should we protect any runners more than others? As I've said before I think they should be treated the same from the first to the last race and wherever they are in the championship.

If Hamilton or Vettel cause an accident meaning another team loses a place in the WCC it could cause a massive financial headache that isn't their fault, do you think they should be let off because they are fighting for the championship and we "don't want to interfere in the championship", whereas if a driver from the same lower team punts one of them off we should throw the book at them because they did "interfere in the championship"?


You make a very good point, I did not think of that myself. Where does the leniency towards the front runners stop? They do not need pampering

I'd go as far to say that any decision that is not consistent because they don't want to interfere in the championship is in itself an interference in the championship!


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:39 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Why should we protect any runners more than others? As I've said before I think they should be treated the same from the first to the last race and wherever they are in the championship.

If Hamilton or Vettel cause an accident meaning another team loses a place in the WCC it could cause a massive financial headache that isn't their fault, do you think they should be let off because they are fighting for the championship and we "don't want to interfere in the championship", whereas if a driver from the same lower team punts one of them off we should throw the book at them because they did "interfere in the championship"?


You make a very good point, I did not think of that myself. Where does the leniency towards the front runners stop? They do not need pampering

I'd go as far to say that any decision that is not consistent because they don't want to interfere in the championship is in itself an interference in the championship!

I'd expect this to be a given. There should be no interference with a WDC/WCC. None what-so-ever. I can't remember when was last time something like that happened, if it ever has


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:45 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Why should we protect any runners more than others? As I've said before I think they should be treated the same from the first to the last race and wherever they are in the championship.

If Hamilton or Vettel cause an accident meaning another team loses a place in the WCC it could cause a massive financial headache that isn't their fault, do you think they should be let off because they are fighting for the championship and we "don't want to interfere in the championship", whereas if a driver from the same lower team punts one of them off we should throw the book at them because they did "interfere in the championship"?


You make a very good point, I did not think of that myself. Where does the leniency towards the front runners stop? They do not need pampering

I'd go as far to say that any decision that is not consistent because they don't want to interfere in the championship is in itself an interference in the championship!

I'd expect this to be a given. There should be no interference with a WDC/WCC. None what-so-ever. I can't remember when was last time something like that happened, if it ever has

Don't remember any myself, but there have been people suggesting otherwise should happen.
Also there are assertions that Kimi and Seb were punished differently because of championship standing/chances, if this is the case (and I'm not saying I believe it is) then it is wrong. I'd also say if Kimi got punished more because he wasn't as badly affected by his mistake as Seb was (again not saying this was the case) then the stewards aren't doing the job as I believe they should.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:52 am 
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Oh yes, I agree. The two punishments do seem inconsistent. But to can play this game; was it that Sebastian got it easy because he is a front runner and a Ferrari pampered golden boy or that Kimi got punished more because he dared touch Lewis?

Actually, that would be a can of worms, let's not get there!


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:06 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Oh yes, I agree. The two punishments do seem inconsistent. But to can play this game; was it that Sebastian got it easy because he is a front runner and a Ferrari pampered golden boy or that Kimi got punished more because he dared touch Lewis?

Actually, that would be a can of worms, let's not get there!

Was leaving it vague on purpose!


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:28 am 
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I see, good choice. I also meant to write "two (not to) can play this game"!


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:22 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

For the bold part, ok I got you. I do understand what you are on about, I just can't see how this would be implemented. The last idea, the 2-3 points awarded in case of a DNF because of someone else is not a bad idea in itself.

The problem I can see with that is the unpredictability of the race. A DNF as you describe it would give 2-3 points. But there is no guarantee that without the shunt the driver would have finished in the first place; it happened in only the previous race where the Merc failed and had a DNF. Then Hamilton would have had 3 points, unfairly. You just cannot predict what happens in a race. If we start with the if's and but's then we are opening a can of worms.


Of course you can never know how the race would have unfolded. But the idea is that you'd assume the driver would have finished without issues as that'd be the highest probability. That's the problem though, it would be difficult to implement.


Assumptions are the mother of all !@#$ ups. You can never predict sport. No guarantee where Hamilton would have finished in the race. Doe it suck that Hamilton got punted off and relegated to last position on lap1? Yeah it does. But Kimi got punished and lost track position to the Red Bulls.

Also without the safety car, Hamilton would have been around 6th position at the time. With the safety car, he went p to third gaining track position and then got second when Bottas's tyre life ran out. You can't give out points based where they should have finished.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:10 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Why should we protect any runners more than others? As I've said before I think they should be treated the same from the first to the last race and wherever they are in the championship.

If Hamilton or Vettel cause an accident meaning another team loses a place in the WCC it could cause a massive financial headache that isn't their fault, do you think they should be let off because they are fighting for the championship and we "don't want to interfere in the championship", whereas if a driver from the same lower team punts one of them off we should throw the book at them because they did "interfere in the championship"?


You make a very good point, I did not think of that myself. Where does the leniency towards the front runners stop? They do not need pampering

I'd go as far to say that any decision that is not consistent because they don't want to interfere in the championship is in itself an interference in the championship!

I'd expect this to be a given. There should be no interference with a WDC/WCC. None what-so-ever. I can't remember when was last time something like that happened, if it ever has


If it was the big boys hitting the little boys - would you even have noticed?

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:45 am 
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Ocon wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.


Of course, you have no idea just where the driver might have finished had there been no incident. What you are proposing could place a driver higher than he would have been anyway.

Also... Ocon, remember that even Lewis has on occasion made a mistake. Will you be so adamant about draconian penalties if Lewis or Bottas take out Vettel? I have my doubts.

You don't know of course, but he certainly would be much closer to full points than no points. When I thought of this, I was only thinking of it to be for the contenders so it wouldn't be so complicated.

I would definitely be in favor of harsher penalties even if it's Lewis. My main concern is for the best driver to get as fair a chance as possible.

1. If your proposed system/rules were applied, imagine the "2010 season" scenario... Alonso would have been a very happy chap if his team-mate (Massa), or a fellow countryman (Alseguari) caused a DNF to him in the opening laps of the Abu Dhabi season finale. For all it matters, Ferrari would have happily scraped the sponsor and placed the sticker "Target Practice" on Alonso's rear wing instead for that season finale :-P

2. And how do you make sure that the team of a title contender who's engine (or other component) is about to give up, does not call upon a customer's team driver to help with a forced DNF in order to gain default points, before the imminent mechanical failure becomes obvious to FIA & public?

There are countless of ways to exploit this insane proposition that no matter how much you try to change or amend it, it would still make things a lot worse.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:53 am 
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ALESI wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Why should we protect any runners more than others? As I've said before I think they should be treated the same from the first to the last race and wherever they are in the championship.

If Hamilton or Vettel cause an accident meaning another team loses a place in the WCC it could cause a massive financial headache that isn't their fault, do you think they should be let off because they are fighting for the championship and we "don't want to interfere in the championship", whereas if a driver from the same lower team punts one of them off we should throw the book at them because they did "interfere in the championship"?


You make a very good point, I did not think of that myself. Where does the leniency towards the front runners stop? They do not need pampering

I'd go as far to say that any decision that is not consistent because they don't want to interfere in the championship is in itself an interference in the championship!

I'd expect this to be a given. There should be no interference with a WDC/WCC. None what-so-ever. I can't remember when was last time something like that happened, if it ever has


If it was the big boys hitting the little boys - would you even have noticed?


Me personally? I am going against the idea that the big boys should have a preferential treatment if you read this thread Alesi, so I think you are confusing me with the other poster I was conversing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:05 am 
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Lojik wrote:
I have already said previously that I don't agree with penalties being tailored to suit consequence. I beleive penalties should be fixed for the incident involved, and I don't care if one the drivers is fightring for a WDC or not, they should all be getting the same treatment. There is some room for common sense in all this but I'd rather have consitsency than something new every time.


I agree but i also disagree.

Should be tailored for the incident and repercussion of it. if you clip a car and they spin out causing a mass pile up = heavy penalty. As we rightly witnessed Grosjean being heavily penalized for the start pile up that forced Lewis's car almost rolling over Alonso - just missing his head. This isn't about removing the racing element but making the drivers think twice about being stupid or outrageous maneuvers.

However I do think clipping a car regardless of WHO the victim is.. shouldn't change the penalty. If you clip a car and they lose a few places = simple penalty. If you clip a car to the back of the grid = medium penalty. If you clip a car causing them to retire = heavier penalty. If you clip a car causing a massive pile up and almost killing some one... I have no sympathy if, like Grosjean you are banned for a race or two.

The penalties need to be harsh enough to make the driver think twice about doing something stupid especially during high risk situations (like the start and safety car). BUT they also need to make drivers go for gaps that actually exist. Otherwise we will see more drivers taken out in the first corner which wouldn't be entertaining if half the grid are gone by lap 2.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:35 am 
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Migen wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
@Zoue

Also, as I mentioned before, there would have to be tweaks and compromises to make it applicable. You don't necessarily have to award the points equivalent of the starting position. It can be a position or two lower, depending of the severity of the incident and how much it hampered the victim in the end.


Of course, you have no idea just where the driver might have finished had there been no incident. What you are proposing could place a driver higher than he would have been anyway.

Also... Ocon, remember that even Lewis has on occasion made a mistake. Will you be so adamant about draconian penalties if Lewis or Bottas take out Vettel? I have my doubts.

You don't know of course, but he certainly would be much closer to full points than no points. When I thought of this, I was only thinking of it to be for the contenders so it wouldn't be so complicated.

I would definitely be in favor of harsher penalties even if it's Lewis. My main concern is for the best driver to get as fair a chance as possible.

1. If your proposed system/rules were applied, imagine the "2010 season" scenario... Alonso would have been a very happy chap if his team-mate (Massa), or a fellow countryman (Alseguari) caused a DNF to him in the opening laps of the Abu Dhabi season finale. For all it matters, Ferrari would have happily scraped the sponsor and placed the sticker "Target Practice" on Alonso's rear wing instead for that season finale :-P

2. And how do you make sure that the team of a title contender who's engine (or other component) is about to give up, does not call upon a customer's team driver to help with a forced DNF in order to gain default points, before the imminent mechanical failure becomes obvious to FIA & public?

There are countless of ways to exploit this insane proposition that no matter how much you try to change or amend it, it would still make things a lot worse.

Yeah I know I already sad that I realise how stupid it is now after thinking about it more. But to answer your points. I had another idea later on, which I also wrote further up. That a DNF would give you only a couple of points instead of starting position equivalence. Your points would make less of an impact in this case.

But anyway, we have come to the conclusion that it wouldn't work anyway. You don't know who the contenders are gonna be at the start of the season. Like you say, no matter how you turn it, it doesn't work.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:39 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Why should we protect any runners more than others? As I've said before I think they should be treated the same from the first to the last race and wherever they are in the championship.

If Hamilton or Vettel cause an accident meaning another team loses a place in the WCC it could cause a massive financial headache that isn't their fault, do you think they should be let off because they are fighting for the championship and we "don't want to interfere in the championship", whereas if a driver from the same lower team punts one of them off we should throw the book at them because they did "interfere in the championship"?


Siao7 wrote:

You did indeed and kudos for recognising this. I think the problem is the last sentence. I don't believe that any driver should have special treatment. If some backmarkers want to jump out of the way then fine, if the teams agree to this before the race then fine again (although a bit of a mockery). But this shouldn't change the penalties that drivers get, they should all get the same treatment.

There is no sport that I can think of that protects just the stars compared to the rest when handing out penalties. Also, mathematically, they are pretty much all contenders until past mid season I guess


Thanks, I should have realised a bit sooner though. :)

Regarding treatment of teams/drivers. The answer to me is simple. The WDC contenders and a few others at the front are the main attraction in F1. You would assume most watch it to see the battle upfront. That's why it's a much bigger deal when one of them gets taken out vs the rest. As I mentioned in another thread, a lot of casual F1 fans don't even know half the names of the drivers, let alone would they care wether one of them gets disadvantaged in order to not interfere with the WDC.

Maybe it's just me who feels this way, I don't know. But I definitely want to minimise interference in the WDC battle, by any tolerable means.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:46 am 
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They are already pushing it too far punishing first corners incidents whereas in the past it was just that, a racing incident on cold tyres and full fuel tanks.

As for Susie and DC, they are British, they are not impartial.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:13 am 
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guardiangr wrote:
As for Susie and DC, they are British, they are not impartial.


You are right, DC is very biased to RBR ;)


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:52 am 
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Ocon wrote:
Maybe it's just me who feels this way, I don't know. But I definitely want to minimise interference in the WDC battle, by any tolerable means.

Which I do understand, but at the start of a season how do you decide who is in the battle? No one expected Brawn to do what they did, if in the first race Button had taken out who we thought would win it should be have been treated as a non championship contender?
If we bring in differential treatment partway through once it's obvious who's contending then the WDC may be influenced by differential treatment of the championship contenders due to when incidents happen in a season.
Also changing things for those not in contention for the top spot can effect WCC position and therefore income for their team, which is unfair!
The only way for it to be fair is treat all drivers the same regardless....


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:55 am 
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I'm joining the discussion very late. In my opinion all incidents should be treated equally regardless of who is involved into them and what position, points or possible win is at stake. That said if stewards feel something happens intentionally and can really affect championship then stewards should forward that matter to WMSC. They should never deal with it during race or even after it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
As for Susie and DC, they are British, they are not impartial.


You are right, DC is very biased to RBR ;)


DC is Scottish - and nobody detests us Brits like a Scotsman can ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
As for Susie and DC, they are British, they are not impartial.


You are right, DC is very biased to RBR ;)


What's that got to do with DC? RBR is Austrian, Hamilton is British.


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:33 pm 
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guardiangr wrote:
Lojik wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
As for Susie and DC, they are British, they are not impartial.


You are right, DC is very biased to RBR ;)


What's that got to do with DC? RBR is Austrian, Hamilton is British.


Is DC still a Red Bull ambassador?


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:50 am 
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What does DC and Susie have to do? They are not the ones handing out the punishments


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 Post subject: Re: The Punishment Due?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:53 am 
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guardiangr wrote:
Lojik wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
As for Susie and DC, they are British, they are not impartial.


You are right, DC is very biased to RBR ;)


What's that got to do with DC? RBR is Austrian, Hamilton is British.


I was somewhat facetiously saying that I don't believe DC to be particularly biased when it comes to British drivers/teams and in fact have found him, if anything, to be quite protective of RBR. I think you'd be more likely to hear Trump criticise Putin than DC criticise RBR :twisted:


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