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Driver(s) of the day was / were:-
1. Lewis Hamilton 28%  28%  [ 54 ]
2. Valtteri Bottas 4%  4%  [ 8 ]
3. Sebastian Vettel 33%  33%  [ 64 ]
4. Kimi Raikkonen 14%  14%  [ 27 ]
5. Daniel Ricciardo 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
6. Max Verstappen 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
7. Sergio Perez 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
8. Esteban Ocon 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
9. Sergey Sirotkin 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
10. Lance Stroll 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
11. Fernando Alonso 8%  8%  [ 16 ]
12. Stoffel Vandoorne 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
13. Pierre Gasly 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
14. Brandon Hartley 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
15. Romain Grosjean 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
16. Kevin Magnussen 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
17. Nico Hulkenberg 6%  6%  [ 12 ]
18. Carlos Sainz 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
19. Marcus Ericsson 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
20. Charles Leclerc 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 196
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:12 pm 
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1. Lewis - Drive of the day. Great passing. Wonderful tire conservation.
2. Sebastian - Great passes, great start.
3. Valtteri - Great drive, good tire conservation, great job on keeping Seb at bay with much older tires.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:21 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
j man wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Seems like it is another one of these races that a driver charging through the field likely gets more votes than if they didn't get knocked back. Without the first lap incident and the safety car, I feel it is not that likely Hamilton will have got past Bottas. It looked like Bottas was managing his tyres at first. As his times went up and down. Someone has disagreed with me about this, but if the team say he managed them better than Vettel, I wouldn't go much further into it. They know more than us. The reason I get this feeling that Hamilton would have stayed behind Bottas unless there were team orders is because of how hard it was for Vettel to get past Bottas. Getting past the same car is even harder. So Bottas finishing ahead without team orders will have been very possible. And will have likely been down to hamilton's poor start. Think about the fact that most seemed to think Hamilton would beat Bottas in Austria because he got ahead at the start. I thought that would be likely then and would likely have been the same case this race if things had gone differently.

With the crash Hamilton had, at that stage, he was very unfortunate. But his car certainly didn't seem damaged. And given how easy this track was to overtake on, he didn't have that much of a challenge today. And then the safety car did effectively undo the time he lost. And due to him running in clean air earlier on compared to Bottas being behind Vettel, this will have been a likely reason why Bottas's good tyre life may have been a fair bit shorter than Hamilton's. Plus all that heavy defending he ended up doing. IMO, Bottas was much more challenged today and deserved to finish ahead of Hamilton. Can't quite understand the voting difference.

All this said I think I agree with Zoue. Vettel I think is the main driver I would go for. But to me Bottas was probably the next stand out. After Hamilton's poor start and unfortunate incident, Hamilton had a good solid race and recovered a lot of places himself. But this was one of the tracks that was rather easy to do it on and nothing looked that impressive. And when you watched the replays of Hamilton overtaking, so few of the drivers even attempted to defend in the slightest.


You seem so certain that Mercedes employed team orders today but I don't believe that is the case. We heard no team radio to that effect and Bottas made a defensive move that would not make any sense if he was supposed to be waving Hamilton past. I'm happy to be corrected but I've not seen any evidence that an order was made; it seems more likely to me that Hamilton passed Bottas on merit while he was struggling with tyres, and Bottas was mindful of not defending too hard against his team mate (although whether Hamilton would give him the same courtesy in the reverse situation is up for question).

Was Bottas in Vettel's dirty air? I thought he was always a few seconds behind until Vettel pitted under the Safety Car. Bottas may have kept his tyres in better shape than Vettel over the first stint but Hamilton's softs lasted even longer and he spent much of his stint following other cars (even if they weren't putting up too much of a fight when it came to overtaking, he still had to follow in the turbulent air). I'd say the Mercedes in general was just better at keeping the softs in good condition today.

I appreciate you are a fan of Bottas and often make good points in his defence, but I can't agree with you here. To me Hamilton was both faster and kept the tyres in better condition today.

I'm not sure where you have read that makes it look like I am so certain that Mercedes gave team orders. Look what I have put in bold. I maybe didn't make it clear enough, but in this sentence I was talking about what might have happened. If there were no safety cars or the first lap incident. I wasn't sure Hamilton would get past Bottas without there being team orders. As Bottas won't have got in front of Vettel with the tyres he was on, therefore will not have had to defend so heavily and will have likely been able to keep their performance there by managing them and pushing when Hamilton was approaching him, enough to stop Hamilton from getting by. Bottas did look very fast earlier on.

What actually did happen, I don't think Bottas did have any team orders, though what some people say make it look like it may have been possible that he was asked to give Hamilton a go. Anyway, what I think happened is that Bottas did all he could on Vettel. Once he realised Vettel was so close on the straight before Vettel past him, he may have thought it was too much of a risk to defend much. You could see that Vettel was closer this time than he had been on any other lap. It could well have been too bigger risk to put up much of a fight. By this stage, his tyres were struggling, but that surely will be as a result of defending Vettel for so long. I think myself that he didn't try to trouble Hamilton too much because he knew he wouldn't be able to keep him behind anyway at this stage. And he knew it would be better for the team if he just let him go.

In terms of the dirty air, I guess Hamilton will have been following others, but never for long at all. Bottas wasn't with DRS range no, but he was between 3 and 2 seconds behind, sometimes just under 2. And he did keep dropping back and then getting closer again. To me indicating he could have been closer but was trying to save the tyres by not getting too close to Vettel.

I don't really know what proves Hamilton was better today really. He had a poor start which Bottas didn't. Hamilton wasn't stuck or close behind cars with similar pace so could basically show his speed more. So I suppose I maybe am giving a reason here in a way. But Bottas showed some excellent defending and to be looked to have a better and more challenging race. One reason why I am surprised at the vote difference.



You are indeed right that I am a fan of Bottas. And I usually try to go into a lot of detail if I make a case to defend him. Guess I will have to disagree. But we all sometimes do.

Apologies, I misread your post regarding team orders.

Yes I guess we'll agree to disagree.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:32 pm 
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No love for Leclerc? He was probably going to beat Hulk and finish best of the rest on merit, and his DNF was in no way his fualt.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:58 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
j man wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Seems like it is another one of these races that a driver charging through the field likely gets more votes than if they didn't get knocked back. Without the first lap incident and the safety car, I feel it is not that likely Hamilton will have got past Bottas. It looked like Bottas was managing his tyres at first. As his times went up and down. Someone has disagreed with me about this, but if the team say he managed them better than Vettel, I wouldn't go much further into it. They know more than us. The reason I get this feeling that Hamilton would have stayed behind Bottas unless there were team orders is because of how hard it was for Vettel to get past Bottas. Getting past the same car is even harder. So Bottas finishing ahead without team orders will have been very possible. And will have likely been down to hamilton's poor start. Think about the fact that most seemed to think Hamilton would beat Bottas in Austria because he got ahead at the start. I thought that would be likely then and would likely have been the same case this race if things had gone differently.

With the crash Hamilton had, at that stage, he was very unfortunate. But his car certainly didn't seem damaged. And given how easy this track was to overtake on, he didn't have that much of a challenge today. And then the safety car did effectively undo the time he lost. And due to him running in clean air earlier on compared to Bottas being behind Vettel, this will have been a likely reason why Bottas's good tyre life may have been a fair bit shorter than Hamilton's. Plus all that heavy defending he ended up doing. IMO, Bottas was much more challenged today and deserved to finish ahead of Hamilton. Can't quite understand the voting difference.

All this said I think I agree with Zoue. Vettel I think is the main driver I would go for. But to me Bottas was probably the next stand out. After Hamilton's poor start and unfortunate incident, Hamilton had a good solid race and recovered a lot of places himself. But this was one of the tracks that was rather easy to do it on and nothing looked that impressive. And when you watched the replays of Hamilton overtaking, so few of the drivers even attempted to defend in the slightest.


You seem so certain that Mercedes employed team orders today but I don't believe that is the case. We heard no team radio to that effect and Bottas made a defensive move that would not make any sense if he was supposed to be waving Hamilton past. I'm happy to be corrected but I've not seen any evidence that an order was made; it seems more likely to me that Hamilton passed Bottas on merit while he was struggling with tyres, and Bottas was mindful of not defending too hard against his team mate (although whether Hamilton would give him the same courtesy in the reverse situation is up for question).

Was Bottas in Vettel's dirty air? I thought he was always a few seconds behind until Vettel pitted under the Safety Car. Bottas may have kept his tyres in better shape than Vettel over the first stint but Hamilton's softs lasted even longer and he spent much of his stint following other cars (even if they weren't putting up too much of a fight when it came to overtaking, he still had to follow in the turbulent air). I'd say the Mercedes in general was just better at keeping the softs in good condition today.

I appreciate you are a fan of Bottas and often make good points in his defence, but I can't agree with you here. To me Hamilton was both faster and kept the tyres in better condition today.

I'm not sure where you have read that makes it look like I am so certain that Mercedes gave team orders. Look what I have put in bold. I maybe didn't make it clear enough, but in this sentence I was talking about what might have happened. If there were no safety cars or the first lap incident. I wasn't sure Hamilton would get past Bottas without there being team orders. As Bottas won't have got in front of Vettel with the tyres he was on, therefore will not have had to defend so heavily and will have likely been able to keep their performance there by managing them and pushing when Hamilton was approaching him, enough to stop Hamilton from getting by. Bottas did look very fast earlier on.

What actually did happen, I don't think Bottas did have any team orders, though what some people say make it look like it may have been possible that he was asked to give Hamilton a go. Anyway, what I think happened is that Bottas did all he could on Vettel. Once he realised Vettel was so close on the straight before Vettel past him, he may have thought it was too much of a risk to defend much. You could see that Vettel was closer this time than he had been on any other lap. It could well have been too bigger risk to put up much of a fight. By this stage, his tyres were struggling, but that surely will be as a result of defending Vettel for so long. I think myself that he didn't try to trouble Hamilton too much because he knew he wouldn't be able to keep him behind anyway at this stage. And he knew it would be better for the team if he just let him go.

In terms of the dirty air, I guess Hamilton will have been following others, but never for long at all. Bottas wasn't with DRS range no, but he was between 3 and 2 seconds behind, sometimes just under 2. And he did keep dropping back and then getting closer again. To me indicating he could have been closer but was trying to save the tyres by not getting too close to Vettel.

I don't really know what proves Hamilton was better today really. He had a poor start which Bottas didn't. Hamilton wasn't stuck or close behind cars with similar pace so could basically show his speed more. So I suppose I maybe am giving a reason here in a way. But Bottas showed some excellent defending and to be looked to have a better and more challenging race. One reason why I am surprised at the vote difference.



You are indeed right that I am a fan of Bottas. And I usually try to go into a lot of detail if I make a case to defend him. Guess I will have to disagree. But we all sometimes do.


That never happened. I do not know what you were watching.

Bottas never spent a single lap of the entire race less than 2 seconds behind Vettel, except for lap 1. In fact, during the entire first stint he was only within 4 seconds of Vettel for 2 of 22 laps. The first 2 laps! Bottas ran the entire first stint essentially in clean air.

His pace was underwhelming, Hamilton caught Bottas and Vettel at about 0.4-0.5 per lap once he got clean air. If Bottas had Lewis' pace, he likely could have tried an undercut on Vettel and hounded him all stint or maybe pushed him into a definite 2 stopper - even without SC.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

Bottas has had a good year this year, but today was the furthest behind Lewis Hamilton he has been all year in terms of race pace.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:52 am 
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I'm going with Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso today.

Vettel had a great start, overtook Hamilton, then later on overtook Bottas with a great move. Had great pace, didn't let Bottas get a look in or threaten the undercut.
Hamilton botched his start, was aided by the safety car, but nonetheless had a great recovery drive.
Alonso ultimately got a good result out of the car again.

Bonus points for the Ferrari team for daring to pit Vettel, giving up track position. Mercedes missed that opportunity with Bottas and would have gotten P2-P3 at least if they had pitted him.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:18 am 
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Vettel - Huge overtake for the lead
Verstappen - Defensive move of the season
Hulkenberg - Winner of the B-race, did well to keep everyone behind on the hard tires.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:22 am 
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Vettel for a solid drive to victory and Lewis for a fantastic recovery drive. Its a real shame that Kimi tangled with Lewis as I think we have been denied a fantastic scrap between Lewis and Seb for the win.

Kimi was flying although a. still failed to beat his teammate and b. had a careless tangle with Lewis which he was lucky to only loose 2 places. Im sure Ferrari are giving him the thumbs up though.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:32 am 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
j man wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Seems like it is another one of these races that a driver charging through the field likely gets more votes than if they didn't get knocked back. Without the first lap incident and the safety car, I feel it is not that likely Hamilton will have got past Bottas. It looked like Bottas was managing his tyres at first. As his times went up and down. Someone has disagreed with me about this, but if the team say he managed them better than Vettel, I wouldn't go much further into it. They know more than us. The reason I get this feeling that Hamilton would have stayed behind Bottas unless there were team orders is because of how hard it was for Vettel to get past Bottas. Getting past the same car is even harder. So Bottas finishing ahead without team orders will have been very possible. And will have likely been down to hamilton's poor start. Think about the fact that most seemed to think Hamilton would beat Bottas in Austria because he got ahead at the start. I thought that would be likely then and would likely have been the same case this race if things had gone differently.

With the crash Hamilton had, at that stage, he was very unfortunate. But his car certainly didn't seem damaged. And given how easy this track was to overtake on, he didn't have that much of a challenge today. And then the safety car did effectively undo the time he lost. And due to him running in clean air earlier on compared to Bottas being behind Vettel, this will have been a likely reason why Bottas's good tyre life may have been a fair bit shorter than Hamilton's. Plus all that heavy defending he ended up doing. IMO, Bottas was much more challenged today and deserved to finish ahead of Hamilton. Can't quite understand the voting difference.

All this said I think I agree with Zoue. Vettel I think is the main driver I would go for. But to me Bottas was probably the next stand out. After Hamilton's poor start and unfortunate incident, Hamilton had a good solid race and recovered a lot of places himself. But this was one of the tracks that was rather easy to do it on and nothing looked that impressive. And when you watched the replays of Hamilton overtaking, so few of the drivers even attempted to defend in the slightest.


You seem so certain that Mercedes employed team orders today but I don't believe that is the case. We heard no team radio to that effect and Bottas made a defensive move that would not make any sense if he was supposed to be waving Hamilton past. I'm happy to be corrected but I've not seen any evidence that an order was made; it seems more likely to me that Hamilton passed Bottas on merit while he was struggling with tyres, and Bottas was mindful of not defending too hard against his team mate (although whether Hamilton would give him the same courtesy in the reverse situation is up for question).

Was Bottas in Vettel's dirty air? I thought he was always a few seconds behind until Vettel pitted under the Safety Car. Bottas may have kept his tyres in better shape than Vettel over the first stint but Hamilton's softs lasted even longer and he spent much of his stint following other cars (even if they weren't putting up too much of a fight when it came to overtaking, he still had to follow in the turbulent air). I'd say the Mercedes in general was just better at keeping the softs in good condition today.

I appreciate you are a fan of Bottas and often make good points in his defence, but I can't agree with you here. To me Hamilton was both faster and kept the tyres in better condition today.

I'm not sure where you have read that makes it look like I am so certain that Mercedes gave team orders. Look what I have put in bold. I maybe didn't make it clear enough, but in this sentence I was talking about what might have happened. If there were no safety cars or the first lap incident. I wasn't sure Hamilton would get past Bottas without there being team orders. As Bottas won't have got in front of Vettel with the tyres he was on, therefore will not have had to defend so heavily and will have likely been able to keep their performance there by managing them and pushing when Hamilton was approaching him, enough to stop Hamilton from getting by. Bottas did look very fast earlier on.

What actually did happen, I don't think Bottas did have any team orders, though what some people say make it look like it may have been possible that he was asked to give Hamilton a go. Anyway, what I think happened is that Bottas did all he could on Vettel. Once he realised Vettel was so close on the straight before Vettel past him, he may have thought it was too much of a risk to defend much. You could see that Vettel was closer this time than he had been on any other lap. It could well have been too bigger risk to put up much of a fight. By this stage, his tyres were struggling, but that surely will be as a result of defending Vettel for so long. I think myself that he didn't try to trouble Hamilton too much because he knew he wouldn't be able to keep him behind anyway at this stage. And he knew it would be better for the team if he just let him go.

In terms of the dirty air, I guess Hamilton will have been following others, but never for long at all. Bottas wasn't with DRS range no, but he was between 3 and 2 seconds behind, sometimes just under 2. And he did keep dropping back and then getting closer again. To me indicating he could have been closer but was trying to save the tyres by not getting too close to Vettel.

I don't really know what proves Hamilton was better today really. He had a poor start which Bottas didn't. Hamilton wasn't stuck or close behind cars with similar pace so could basically show his speed more. So I suppose I maybe am giving a reason here in a way. But Bottas showed some excellent defending and to be looked to have a better and more challenging race. One reason why I am surprised at the vote difference.



You are indeed right that I am a fan of Bottas. And I usually try to go into a lot of detail if I make a case to defend him. Guess I will have to disagree. But we all sometimes do.


That never happened. I do not know what you were watching.

Bottas never spent a single lap of the entire race less than 2 seconds behind Vettel, except for lap 1. In fact, during the entire first stint he was only within 4 seconds of Vettel for 2 of 22 laps. The first 2 laps! Bottas ran the entire first stint essentially in clean air.

His pace was underwhelming, Hamilton caught Bottas and Vettel at about 0.4-0.5 per lap once he got clean air. If Bottas had Lewis' pace, he likely could have tried an undercut on Vettel and hounded him all stint or maybe pushed him into a definite 2 stopper - even without SC.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

Bottas has had a good year this year, but today was the furthest behind Lewis Hamilton he has been all year in terms of race pace.


I was talking about after they had both pitted. I was incorrect about the time gaps. But who was it who was faster at this stage? Bottas. And if the race didn't have a safety car, or that spin for Hamilton, given Bottas's pace at that stage, how do we know if Hamilton will have beaten him? I'm not so sure. From what Mercedes said, Bottas managed his tyres well and better than Vettel in the first stint so may have kept back from Vettel for a reason. I know managing the tyres close to your pit stop seems pointless, but I think they only pitted as a reaction to Vettel doing this. Otherwise Bottas doing what he did may have been an advantage for doing a longer stint. One reason why I think Hamilton may have been much quicker near the start will be because Mercedes may have told him to use full power to catch up. I really don't see how Bottas's pace was underwhelming today. The furthest behind Hamilton in terms of pace out of every race this year? Strongly disagree with that. We can't really compare races when one driver is having to catch up from the back. The engine settings could well have been different. If Hamilton had been in Bottas's situation we can't be totally sure what he will have done. Sometimes what happens with Hamilton is he drives a lot closer for a little too long and effects his tyre life.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:58 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Bottas managed his tyres well and better than Vettel in the first stint


I don't necessarily agree. It's a question of when do you take what out of the tyres. Vettel did more early in the stint, probably to be safe for the undercut. Bottas could take out a bit more later on. Ultimately Vettel had 4.5s when pitting, so he did with the tyres what he had to do with them.

On the medium tyres, no contest though. The Merc is often mega on it, and no difference yesterday. The SC really helped out Vettel.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:10 am 
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Vettel, Kimi, Hamilton, with a shout-out to Bernd Maylander for making it interesting...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:22 am 
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mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Bottas managed his tyres well and better than Vettel in the first stint[/quote]

I don't necessarily agree. It's a question of when do you take what out of the tyres. Vettel did more early in the stint, probably to be safe for the undercut. Bottas could take out a bit more later on. Ultimately Vettel had 4.5s when pitting, so he did with the tyres what he had to do with them.

On the medium tyres, no contest though. The Merc is often mega on it, and no difference yesterday. The SC really helped out Vettel.

I am only basing this on what the team said to him. Given the gap kept opening and closig, i don't think he was giving it everything.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:20 am 
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Hulk, Hamilton, Vettel.


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