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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:23 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
It was one of the better races of the year. The weather was perfect, the crowds were superb, it was a grand diorama of drama.

Yes, Raikkonen screwed up. But the bad sportsmanship coming from the Mercedes camp leaves a foul taste in my mouth. There is a very good reason why I do not respect certain people as men, and this is one good example.

For a few glorious laps we witnessed some excellent and intense nose-to-tail battling between the top cars. It is a shame we do not see such a level of competitiveness for the entire race, but hey, that is my Holy Grail.

It is a shame Hamilton took off immediately after he parked his car. What is infinitely more shameful is how Brundle chased him down on the podium just so he could say a few words to his fans. As far as I am concerned, if Hamilton abandons his sole opportunity to speak to his fans, then it's on him. I hope that Liberty make changes so that if any driver abandons his opportunity to speak to his fans from parc fermé then that said driver is immediately evicted from the race track.

Abuse removes any privilege.


I agree with most of that.

I quite enjoyed Lewis' flounce off and his relationship with the door in the driver's 'get your cap' room.

Brundle gave him his interview because people still wanted to see it. It had been a come-back (even if it didn't look that difficult).

I think Bottas may well have earned a continuation of his contract, even though IMO today was a further illustration of why Merc may need a better driver next year.

Why? What did Bottas do wrong? He had a storming start to go from 4th to 2nd, while his team mate lost the pole advantage and dropped a couple of places. Then after he kept very close to Vettel and didn't allow him breathing room. What was he supposed to have done that he didn't do?


Bottas qualified 0.325 slower than his team mate in the same car. Hamilton's slow start got in Raikkonen's way, hence Raikkonen becoming 4th before taking Hamilton out. Hamilton made up about 25 seconds on Bottas while overtaking several cars. He then got surprised by Vettel, to lose the lead and finally finished 4th. He got overtaken by Hamilton despite being in the same car with younger tyres.
If he is supposed to be a No. 2 driver, then he didn't do anything that he wasn't supposed to do.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:29 pm 
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Bottas was 0.225 slower than Hamilton who "drove the lap of his life" not 0.325...

Hamilton did not make up 25 seconds, that was due to the SC. Hamilton made about 5-6 seconds on Bottas once he got clean air over about 11 laps. Hamilton was maybe 0.3-0.5 a lap quicker in raw race pace but he did not make up 25 seconds, that is nonsense.

You are incorrect, Hamilton had younger tyres when he overtook Bottas by 5 laps. My gut says that if Hamilton was in the lead, he may have actually held off Vettel to win the race. Bottas was close, he held him for 6 laps and just when he got a bit comfortable, Vettel surprised him. Bottas didn't even feel the need to strongly defend that lap. Hamilton with his extra 0.3 per lap and the race craft could have held that win.

You are right in that, Bottas will not ever win a WDC against Vettel if the cars are this equal. He is however an amazing number 2 and the perfect distance from Hamilton in terms of raw pace. Kimi, is an example of poor number 2 (today he was good but its his best track) and the reason that Mercedes will still likely win the WCC at least.


Last edited by Johnson on Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:31 pm 
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https://www.crash.net/f1/results/900735 ... ng-results


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:35 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
https://www.crash.net/f1/results/900735/1/british-grand-prix-qualifying-results


Is that you showing the gap was indeed 0.320? My mistake. Either way, it doesn't change anything in what I said. In 11 races, the furthest behind he has been is this 0.320 and he has beaten Hamilton, I believe 4 times - you think that is bad?

Hamilton is ahead just 6-4 in qualifying? What do you expect from Bottas, 5-5? Because its 1 race from being that. Or should he be ahead?


Last edited by Johnson on Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:53 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Sappher wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Longnose wrote:
You completely ignore the fact that Ferrari has now taken out a Merc two races in a row. Like Toto said, "either they are incompetent or it was deliberate", either way not acceptable. Lewis had the pace and made up lost time, finishing only a few seconds behind Seb Vettel in the end. So, if he didn't get spun by an incompetent (give them the benefit of the doubt) Ferrari, Lewis very well could have finished in first. If Bottas had have made contact with Seb during their battles and spun Vettel, and Lewis ended up winning the race, you would be yelling and screaming and saying Lewis didn't deserve the win. The double standard here is comical.


The last two sentences are true even though many will fail to admit.


Umm yea, if two drivers are taken out and the one sitting in third wins the race, it's hardly a great achievement. What you fail to realize though is that Hamilton was already behind both Vettel and Bottas when the incident with Kimi occured. To be honest, in hindsight, I'd say Vettel would have won this race even without Hamilton having a terrible start that dropped him to third place. Vettel seemed to have the pace today.


I think the opposite, the numbers show the opposite.

If you look at the key phase of the race, around the first pit stop. Everybody was pushing. Vettel, so Bottas could not undercut him. Bottas to undercut Vettel and Hamilton pushing to just catch them all.

In Vettels 4 in laps, Hamilton was 1.1,0.5,1.4 and 1.6's quicker than him, outrageuous pace difference especially given that Hamilton had been pushing through traffic for half the stint whilst Vettel had clean air out front. Hamilton was similar amounts quicker than Bottas too. As soon as Hamilton got clean air he was taking on average 0.5 per lap out of Vettel and Bottas who by the end of the stint were both pushing at least.

The Mercedes, in Hamiltons hands was very impressive today, no way Vettel beats Hamilton if Hamilton leads with Vettel 2nd. The Mercedes was at worst just as quick (probably actually much quicker) and with much better tyre life.


Fair enough, I won't argue further as I did not take that good of a look to the times in the middle part of the race. I quickly based my opinion from the end of the race, which of course was a bit unfair as Hamilton had worn mediums vs. new softs on Vettel.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:57 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
I did wonder, but even when he was eventually interviewed he was still out of breath. Hamilton on why he did not do interview.

"I lost nearly 3kg trying to get back to the to today for you and my team. I barely had the energy at the end to stand, let alone talk. If you can't understand and appreciate that then I fully understand. However it was nothing to do with anger, literally just exhausted both physically and emotionally. Thanks to everyone for the incredible support this weekend, we win and lose together. Onwards and Upwards".

Silverstone is the physically most demanding track on the calendar now.

Fair enough, I take back my comment about it being poor form.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:58 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Blake wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Longnose wrote:
You completely ignore the fact that Ferrari has now taken out a Merc two races in a row. Like Toto said, "either they are incompetent or it was deliberate", either way not acceptable. Lewis had the pace and made up lost time, finishing only a few seconds behind Seb Vettel in the end. So, if he didn't get spun by an incompetent (give them the benefit of the doubt) Ferrari, Lewis very well could have finished in first. If Bottas had have made contact with Seb during their battles and spun Vettel, and Lewis ended up winning the race, you would be yelling and screaming and saying Lewis didn't deserve the win. The double standard here is comical.


The last two sentences are true even though many will fail to admit.


Not really. Few, if any, would be claiming the win was undeserved... Just as few, like you and longnose, are saying it now. Most recognize that Seb's win was deserved, though a few believe Lewis would have won under better circumstances.


So, if Bottas had crashed out Vettel, you would have come out here praising a deserved Hamilton win?


What I likely would not have done is come out here claiming that Lewis did not deserve the win. You endorsed a post endorsing a position that Vettel's win was not deserved... that, lasardi is you problem, don't try to put it on me.

In this case, Vettel did nothing wrong except that he got the lead by Turn 1 and Lewis went backwards. How does that make Vettel's win undeserved?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:37 am 
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Longnose wrote:
You completely ignore the fact that Ferrari has now taken out a Merc two races in a row. Like Toto said, "either they are incompetent or it was deliberate", either way not acceptable. Lewis had the pace and made up lost time, finishing only a few seconds behind Seb Vettel in the end. So, if he didn't get spun by an incompetent (give them the benefit of the doubt) Ferrari, Lewis very well could have finished in first. If Bottas had have made contact with Seb during their battles and spun Vettel, and Lewis ended up winning the race, you would be yelling and screaming and saying Lewis didn't deserve the win. The double standard here is comical.


Well to be fair, the trouble started before that, when Hamilton got bogged down and fell into the clutches of those behind, including his teammate, the Ferraris and Red Bulls. Even if there had been no crash, he would have had to overcome that and regain the lead to win. He was not able to regain the lead at the restarts right behind the leaders, so I am unsure why you believe he would have done so if there was no crash...

But second was an excellent recovery drive for Lewis, so he had nothing to regret in the outcome all things considered.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:09 am 
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Johnson wrote:

"I lost nearly 3kg trying to get back to the to today for you and my team. I barely had the energy at the end to stand, let alone talk. If you can't understand and appreciate that then I fully understand. However it was nothing to do with anger, literally just exhausted both physically and emotionally. Thanks to everyone for the incredible support this weekend, we win and lose together. Onwards and Upwards".

Silverstone is the physically most demanding track on the calendar now.


But it was the same for everybody, and everybody else did an interview. I find this to be a poor excuse.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:53 am 
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Found this interesting, it seems Williams reverted both cars to a previous spec and does Renault are still having exhaust issues on the Red Bulls?

Technical Delegate’s Report
The following parts and parameters have been replaced / changed during the Parc Fermé yesterday
and today:
Mercedes:
Car 44:         Plank
                    LHS barge board

Ferrari:
Car 05:         LHS rear brake duct external body
                    LHS front tyre
Car 07:         RHS rear brake duct external body
                    RHS rear floor fixing support screw

Red Bull Racing TAG Heuer:
Car 03:         Secondary exhaust
Car 33:         Secondary exhaust


Force India Mercedes:
Car 11:         Cylinder #3 spark plug
                    RHS ignition coil bar

Williams Mercedes:
Car 18:         Rear wing (different specification)
                    Engine cover wing (different specification)
                    LHS cooling panel (different specification)
                    Floor
                    RHS front brake wear sensor
                    RHS front brake wear sensor calibrations
Car 35:         Rear wing (different specification)
                    Engine cover wing (different specification)
                    LHS cooling panel (different specification)
                    Front wing/nose assembly (different specification)
                    Front wing/nose assembly
                    Floor


Haas Ferrari:
Car 08:         RHS rear brake duct quadriplane
Car 20:         Front plank and skids
                    T-tray assembly
                    T-tray mounting studs
                    LHS rear brake duct quadriplane

McLaren Renault:
Car 02:         RHS front wing flap element

All above parts have been replaced with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written
request from the team concerned, this being in accordance with Article 34.2 of the 2018 Formula
One Sporting Regulations.

The FIA Formula One Technical Delegate


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:06 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Johnson wrote:

"I lost nearly 3kg trying to get back to the to today for you and my team. I barely had the energy at the end to stand, let alone talk. If you can't understand and appreciate that then I fully understand. However it was nothing to do with anger, literally just exhausted both physically and emotionally. Thanks to everyone for the incredible support this weekend, we win and lose together. Onwards and Upwards".

Silverstone is the physically most demanding track on the calendar now.


But it was the same for everybody, and everybody else did an interview. I find this to be a poor excuse.


You would.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:17 am 
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Longnose wrote:
You completely ignore the fact that Ferrari has now taken out a Merc two races in a row. Like Toto said, "either they are incompetent or it was deliberate", either way not acceptable. Lewis had the pace and made up lost time, finishing only a few seconds behind Seb Vettel in the end. So, if he didn't get spun by an incompetent (give them the benefit of the doubt) Ferrari, Lewis very well could have finished in first. If Bottas had have made contact with Seb during their battles and spun Vettel, and Lewis ended up winning the race, you would be yelling and screaming and saying Lewis didn't deserve the win. The double standard here is comical.


Then Toto is a Schmuck. Because there is no any "they" as in "Ferrari" here. Anybody with a brain of the size of a grain will gather that much that those were two unrelated racing incidents where individual drivers were involved in, one nothing to do with other. And particularly in the first incident, it makes a zero sense that Vettel would go for taking Bottas and himself out in order to in that way perhaps benefit himself in his quest to win the title from Hamilton (seriously, Bottas is not even his concurrence in this one). I heard many F1 conspiracy theories, but this one takes the Grand Prix of Stupidity.

If Toto really thinks that that was deliberate, then he needs his head be examined. And if the only other option available to him is that "they" are incompetent, then he can go indulging his sorrow Arsch in it if that makes him feel any better.

And this last part. It is but you who is projecting into people's minds, so to "conclude" the double standard for them. While in fact it is all about what you are "yelling and screaming and saying" here, or whatever already you would be saying in that hypothetical example of yours. Not others.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:25 am 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Zoue wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
It was one of the better races of the year. The weather was perfect, the crowds were superb, it was a grand diorama of drama.

Yes, Raikkonen screwed up. But the bad sportsmanship coming from the Mercedes camp leaves a foul taste in my mouth. There is a very good reason why I do not respect certain people as men, and this is one good example.

For a few glorious laps we witnessed some excellent and intense nose-to-tail battling between the top cars. It is a shame we do not see such a level of competitiveness for the entire race, but hey, that is my Holy Grail.

It is a shame Hamilton took off immediately after he parked his car. What is infinitely more shameful is how Brundle chased him down on the podium just so he could say a few words to his fans. As far as I am concerned, if Hamilton abandons his sole opportunity to speak to his fans, then it's on him. I hope that Liberty make changes so that if any driver abandons his opportunity to speak to his fans from parc fermé then that said driver is immediately evicted from the race track.

Abuse removes any privilege.


I agree with most of that.

I quite enjoyed Lewis' flounce off and his relationship with the door in the driver's 'get your cap' room.

Brundle gave him his interview because people still wanted to see it. It had been a come-back (even if it didn't look that difficult).

I think Bottas may well have earned a continuation of his contract, even though IMO today was a further illustration of why Merc may need a better driver next year.

Why? What did Bottas do wrong? He had a storming start to go from 4th to 2nd, while his team mate lost the pole advantage and dropped a couple of places. Then after he kept very close to Vettel and didn't allow him breathing room. What was he supposed to have done that he didn't do?


Bottas qualified 0.325 slower than his team mate in the same car. Hamilton's slow start got in Raikkonen's way, hence Raikkonen becoming 4th before taking Hamilton out. Hamilton made up about 25 seconds on Bottas while overtaking several cars. He then got surprised by Vettel, to lose the lead and finally finished 4th. He got overtaken by Hamilton despite being in the same car with younger tyres.
If he is supposed to be a No. 2 driver, then he didn't do anything that he wasn't supposed to do.

He got out-qualified by Hamilton, yes, but you initially wrote about "today" being an illustration of why Mercedes might need a better driver. And on Sunday he did little wrong. Hamilton in no way made up anywhere near 25s - that was largely down to the SC. And Bottas put up a pretty decent defense and he did have a fairly hefty tyre disadvantage at the end. I think you are being somewhat harsh on him


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:58 am 
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Longnose wrote:
You completely ignore the fact that Ferrari has now taken out a Merc two races in a row.


Except that's not a fact. In Austria no Ferrari took out a Mercedes. On top of that, what happened in France did not benefit Vettel so I don't even see why it is counted by those that are claiming it to be on purpose.

Quote:
Lewis had the pace and made up lost time, finishing only a few seconds behind Seb Vettel in the end. So, if he didn't get spun by an incompetent (give them the benefit of the doubt) Ferrari, Lewis very well could have finished in first.


It could very well, but why are people lumping everything together again as if Lewis made up that time on himself? Vettel had more than a pit stop in hand when he pitted and only the SC allowed Lewis back with the lead pack.

Quote:
If Bottas had have made contact with Seb during their battles and spun Vettel, and Lewis ended up winning the race, you would be yelling and screaming and saying Lewis didn't deserve the win. The double standard here is comical.


1. I don't think anyone would say that here.
2. Take a look around on fora, twitter, FB, everywhere. The yelling and screaming is right out there. So what's the point? This sort of thing causes outrage that would be apparent on the other side as well? Well, that assumption doesn't take a genius for it to come up with right?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:04 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Sappher wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Longnose wrote:
You completely ignore the fact that Ferrari has now taken out a Merc two races in a row. Like Toto said, "either they are incompetent or it was deliberate", either way not acceptable. Lewis had the pace and made up lost time, finishing only a few seconds behind Seb Vettel in the end. So, if he didn't get spun by an incompetent (give them the benefit of the doubt) Ferrari, Lewis very well could have finished in first. If Bottas had have made contact with Seb during their battles and spun Vettel, and Lewis ended up winning the race, you would be yelling and screaming and saying Lewis didn't deserve the win. The double standard here is comical.


The last two sentences are true even though many will fail to admit.


Umm yea, if two drivers are taken out and the one sitting in third wins the race, it's hardly a great achievement. What you fail to realize though is that Hamilton was already behind both Vettel and Bottas when the incident with Kimi occured. To be honest, in hindsight, I'd say Vettel would have won this race even without Hamilton having a terrible start that dropped him to third place. Vettel seemed to have the pace today.


I think the opposite, the numbers show the opposite.

If you look at the key phase of the race, around the first pit stop. Everybody was pushing. Vettel, so Bottas could not undercut him. Bottas to undercut Vettel and Hamilton pushing to just catch them all.

In Vettels 4 in laps, Hamilton was 1.1,0.5,1.4 and 1.6's quicker than him, outrageuous pace difference especially given that Hamilton had been pushing through traffic for half the stint whilst Vettel had clean air out front. Hamilton was similar amounts quicker than Bottas too. As soon as Hamilton got clean air he was taking on average 0.5 per lap out of Vettel and Bottas who by the end of the stint were both pushing at least.

The Mercedes, in Hamiltons hands was very impressive today, no way Vettel beats Hamilton if Hamilton leads with Vettel 2nd. The Mercedes was at worst just as quick (probably actually much quicker) and with much better tyre life.


But the situation was already Vettel leading with Hamilton second... Also, when comparing Hamilton and Vettel pace, you have to factor in the fact that Vettel was leading, on a track where last year we saw huge tyre problems (and this year with the mediums just as well), and Vettel didn't exactly need more than 4-5 seconds on Bottas to prevent the undercut. I'm not entirely sure whether Vettel was going all out in that first stint, or whether he was trying to control a gap good enough to not be under threat of an undercut but not more than that in order to make the tyres last as long as possible.

Hamilton on the other hand had no other choice than to go full attack and hoping the tyres would make it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:57 am 
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Zoue wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
It was one of the better races of the year. The weather was perfect, the crowds were superb, it was a grand diorama of drama.

Yes, Raikkonen screwed up. But the bad sportsmanship coming from the Mercedes camp leaves a foul taste in my mouth. There is a very good reason why I do not respect certain people as men, and this is one good example.

For a few glorious laps we witnessed some excellent and intense nose-to-tail battling between the top cars. It is a shame we do not see such a level of competitiveness for the entire race, but hey, that is my Holy Grail.

It is a shame Hamilton took off immediately after he parked his car. What is infinitely more shameful is how Brundle chased him down on the podium just so he could say a few words to his fans. As far as I am concerned, if Hamilton abandons his sole opportunity to speak to his fans, then it's on him. I hope that Liberty make changes so that if any driver abandons his opportunity to speak to his fans from parc fermé then that said driver is immediately evicted from the race track.

Abuse removes any privilege.


I agree with most of that.

I quite enjoyed Lewis' flounce off and his relationship with the door in the driver's 'get your cap' room.

Brundle gave him his interview because people still wanted to see it. It had been a come-back (even if it didn't look that difficult).

I think Bottas may well have earned a continuation of his contract, even though IMO today was a further illustration of why Merc may need a better driver next year.

Why? What did Bottas do wrong? He had a storming start to go from 4th to 2nd, while his team mate lost the pole advantage and dropped a couple of places. Then after he kept very close to Vettel and didn't allow him breathing room. What was he supposed to have done that he didn't do?

I agree. If anything, Bottas has shown why they should keep him.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:01 am 
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Bottas did everything right. Maybe he didn't have the outright pace Hamilton seemed to have, but all in all he drove solidly, defended well against a much faster Vettel and it was Mercedes' mistake for not pitting Bottas on the first safety car.

I felt it was a no-brainer to come into the pit given the mediums were not holding too well compared to the softs especially given the softs potential for faster laps. It would have made sure Vettel kept track position, but was it ever a wise idea to think Bottas could hold off an arguably faster car on faster and fresh tyres?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:34 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Bottas was 0.225 slower than Hamilton who "drove the lap of his life" not 0.325...


And in F1 terms, it's still a large margin.

Johnson wrote:
Hamilton did not make up 25 seconds, that was due to the SC. Hamilton made about 5-6 seconds on Bottas once he got clean air over about 11 laps. Hamilton was maybe 0.3-0.5 a lap quicker in raw race pace but he did not make up 25 seconds, that is nonsense.


No but before the SC, he made up a lot of places in a very short time. Even surprising me. Course the SC helped but then again you could say being wracked to last place was something out of his power - he had very little hope of finishing 2nd even with SC help. For damage limitation (like Vettel did recently) it was still an impressive come back.

Johnson wrote:
You are right in that, Bottas will not ever win a WDC against Vettel if the cars are this equal. He is however an amazing number 2 and the perfect distance from Hamilton in terms of raw pace. Kimi, is an example of poor number 2 (today he was good but its his best track) and the reason that Mercedes will still likely win the WCC at least.


I some what agree. I think Bottas could be better but if this was Nico/Bottas instead of Lewis/Bottas... I'd see Nico coming out on top. If Lewis wasn't able to win it, we all knew Nico would. Problem with Bottas, if Lewis isn't winning it...... we'd all place a bet on Vettel being the winner.. not Bottas... The championship at the moment is Vettel Vs Lewis. Although luck hasn't always gone his way, every driver in that top 6 have had their fair share of bad luck. Bottas like Kimi could be much MUCH closer to their team mates.... Either way, Kimi deserves to lose his drive before Bottas.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:38 am 
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While one can debate back and forth about how the final outcome would be if not for the incident between Kimi and Ham, and perhaps not be able to come to an agreement. There ought not to be place for arguing how Vettel hence did not earn his win, or it was not deserved, or it was not an achievement. Vettel took the lead and the control over the race from the go. Whatever that happened to Hamilton behind Vettel's back, is not the factor that to determine Vettel's performance and endeavor and achievement. Even was Hamilton's car to stall at the start and he never took off, even that wouldn't be the factor since it would not be about him but about the race itself and that guy who drives his donkey off to win it.

On the end, it is but sour grapes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:49 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
No but before the SC, he made up a lot of places in a very short time. Even surprising me. Course the SC helped but then again you could say being wracked to last place was something out of his power - he had very little hope of finishing 2nd even with SC help. For damage limitation (like Vettel did recently) it was still an impressive come back.


Sure about that? He was a guaranteed fifth with Max's retirement, overtook Bottas on shot tyres for fourth, and gained the other two places because of Dan and Kimi pitting.

Don't get me wrong - as I said in the DotD thread, I think he did a great comeback drive, but if you factor SC and strategy in then P2 maybe wasn't so strange after all.

edit: the best thing that probably happened to him was the extra few laps he did with his first stint of tyres. While they were clearly gone (he lapped considerably slower in the last laps of that stint), the time he lost during those last laps was negated by the safety car and it meant he could carry his mediums in the second stint up until the end.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 am 
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I just watched the race highlights and I admit I missed a good one I think. But it was my stag weekend, all worth it!

Now are we seriously thinking what Totto is saying as Ferrari taking out Mercedes deliberately? If Ferrari wanted to get more points for their leading driver they'd swap Kimi with Sebastian last weekend, they didn't have to "take out" Hamilton to gain some points while risking being named as cheaters.

Trying to stir some controversy probably good old Totto


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:40 am 
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I think what the controversy does though is red flag Ferrari's hitting Mercedes cars, do the Ferrari drivers then think twice about being overly aggressive because I would be guessing the FIA might start getting concerned if it happened again?

The contact wasn't deliberate but the aggressive driving against a main rival was, this is a similar stance I made against Verstappen that if you are overly aggressive then don't be surprised to get involved in incidents.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:44 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I think what the controversy does though is red flag Ferrari's hitting Mercedes cars, do the Ferrari drivers then think twice about being overly aggressive because I would be guessing the FIA might start getting concerned if it happened again?

The contact wasn't deliberate but the aggressive driving against a main rival was, this is a similar stance I made against Verstappen that if you are overly aggressive then don't be surprised to get involved in incidents.


Do you honestly think they don't really care about whether an agressive action ends in tears or not? Vettel is engaged in a very close battle with Hamilton and he knows very well that a broken front wing isn't really what he's after. Likewise for Kimi, he could have easily broken his suspension with that hit.

They were two minor mistakes, it's just a coincidence that both happened within the span of 3 races.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:00 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think what the controversy does though is red flag Ferrari's hitting Mercedes cars, do the Ferrari drivers then think twice about being overly aggressive because I would be guessing the FIA might start getting concerned if it happened again?

The contact wasn't deliberate but the aggressive driving against a main rival was, this is a similar stance I made against Verstappen that if you are overly aggressive then don't be surprised to get involved in incidents.


Do you honestly think they don't really care about whether an agressive action ends in tears or not? Vettel is engaged in a very close battle with Hamilton and he knows very well that a broken front wing isn't really what he's after. Likewise for Kimi, he could have easily broken his suspension with that hit.

They were two minor mistakes, it's just a coincidence that both happened within the span of 3 races.

I'm throwing it out there if it keeps happening, at the moment it's just a coincidence, not even that really, I would say Mercedes are just kind of making the FIA take notice.

Both accidents were obviously just racing incidents even though both drivers were penalised, obviously Vettel gains nothing from such incidents when he is involved but then Mercedes might get a bit jumpy when the perceived #2 Ferrari driver hits their main title challenger, then they lump in the two incidents together just to get the FIA's attention.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:17 pm 
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I'm a fan of Hamilton, I support him from 2007, but really lately he's too much of a drama queen. He exaggerates everything.
Yeah, it was unfortunate that he got punted in 1st lap (which really wasn't THAT big of mistake-its quite often these days) but others suffered much more with similar situations and went over it easier. And in the end he got away unexpectedly good with 2nd place, which was probable even without the crash. After 1st lap my guess was that 5th-6th place was the max he could take.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I'm throwing it out there if it keeps happening, at the moment it's just a coincidence, not even that really, I would say Mercedes are just kind of making the FIA take notice.

Both accidents were obviously just racing incidents even though both drivers were penalised, obviously Vettel gains nothing from such incidents when he is involved but then Mercedes might get a bit jumpy when the perceived #2 Ferrari driver hits their main title challenger, then they lump in the two incidents together just to get the FIA's attention.


And then you have Toto pulling a "Trump" to get the attention.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Johnson wrote:

"I lost nearly 3kg trying to get back to the to today for you and my team. I barely had the energy at the end to stand, let alone talk. If you can't understand and appreciate that then I fully understand. However it was nothing to do with anger, literally just exhausted both physically and emotionally. Thanks to everyone for the incredible support this weekend, we win and lose together. Onwards and Upwards".

Silverstone is the physically most demanding track on the calendar now.


But it was the same for everybody, and everybody else did an interview. I find this to be a poor excuse.

Does everyone suffer from Asthma? He was the only one struggling to breath when interviewed and had 4-5 minutes more time to recover. Maybe, people have different levels of fitness/exhaustion?


Last edited by Johnson on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I think what the controversy does though is red flag Ferrari's hitting Mercedes cars, do the Ferrari drivers then think twice about being overly aggressive because I would be guessing the FIA might start getting concerned if it happened again?

The contact wasn't deliberate but the aggressive driving against a main rival was, this is a similar stance I made against Verstappen that if you are overly aggressive then don't be surprised to get involved in incidents.


Maybe if the Mercedes drivers stop trying to box in Ferrari drivers at the start and just get good starts this contacts might stop happening, France and GB same move of trying to box in by Bottas same result although Kimi vs Lewis was later than Vettel v Bottas.

Also what this should do is should a mistake result in contact from Hamilton on either Ferrari will the stewards then look at it as retaliation and using his so called team tactics.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:55 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Maybe if the Mercedes drivers stop trying to box in Ferrari drivers at the start and just get good starts this contacts might stop happening, France and GB same move of trying to box in by Bottas same result although Kimi vs Lewis was later than Vettel v Bottas.

Also what this should do is should a mistake result in contact from Hamilton on either Ferrari will the stewards then look at it as retaliation and using his so called team tactics.


Are you actually now blaming Merc for being hit by the Ferraris? wow.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Bottas was 0.225 slower than Hamilton who "drove the lap of his life" not 0.325...


And in F1 terms, it's still a large margin.

Johnson wrote:
Hamilton did not make up 25 seconds, that was due to the SC. Hamilton made about 5-6 seconds on Bottas once he got clean air over about 11 laps. Hamilton was maybe 0.3-0.5 a lap quicker in raw race pace but he did not make up 25 seconds, that is nonsense.


No but before the SC, he made up a lot of places in a very short time. Even surprising me. Course the SC helped but then again you could say being wracked to last place was something out of his power - he had very little hope of finishing 2nd even with SC help. For damage limitation (like Vettel did recently) it was still an impressive come back.

Johnson wrote:
You are right in that, Bottas will not ever win a WDC against Vettel if the cars are this equal. He is however an amazing number 2 and the perfect distance from Hamilton in terms of raw pace. Kimi, is an example of poor number 2 (today he was good but its his best track) and the reason that Mercedes will still likely win the WCC at least.


I some what agree. I think Bottas could be better but if this was Nico/Bottas instead of Lewis/Bottas... I'd see Nico coming out on top. If Lewis wasn't able to win it, we all knew Nico would. Problem with Bottas, if Lewis isn't winning it...... we'd all place a bet on Vettel being the winner.. not Bottas... The championship at the moment is Vettel Vs Lewis. Although luck hasn't always gone his way, every driver in that top 6 have had their fair share of bad luck. Bottas like Kimi could be much MUCH closer to their team mates.... Either way, Kimi deserves to lose his drive before Bottas.


0.225 behind on a long track like Silverstone is a large margin? Really? That is ridiculous, even more so when Hamilton says it was 'the lap of his life'?

The Nico Rosberg, who you seem to rate much higher than Bottas. At Silverstone..

2016: +0.320
2015: +0.110
2014: Rosberg 4 seconds ahead in freak wet condition
2013: +0.450

Bottas worst qualifying performance all year is this one at Silverstone +0.320, he has also out qualified him in 40% of the races. There is nothing wrong with his 1 lap pace, he is too fast if anything to be a support driver to Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think what the controversy does though is red flag Ferrari's hitting Mercedes cars, do the Ferrari drivers then think twice about being overly aggressive because I would be guessing the FIA might start getting concerned if it happened again?

The contact wasn't deliberate but the aggressive driving against a main rival was, this is a similar stance I made against Verstappen that if you are overly aggressive then don't be surprised to get involved in incidents.


Maybe if the Mercedes drivers stop trying to box in Ferrari drivers at the start and just get good starts this contacts might stop happening, France and GB same move of trying to box in by Bottas same result although Kimi vs Lewis was later than Vettel v Bottas.

Also what this should do is should a mistake result in contact from Hamilton on either Ferrari will the stewards then look at it as retaliation and using his so called team tactics.


Kimi hit Hamilton at T3... the boxing was on the run to T1.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:11 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Maybe if the Mercedes drivers stop trying to box in Ferrari drivers at the start and just get good starts this contacts might stop happening, France and GB same move of trying to box in by Bottas same result although Kimi vs Lewis was later than Vettel v Bottas.

Also what this should do is should a mistake result in contact from Hamilton on either Ferrari will the stewards then look at it as retaliation and using his so called team tactics.


Are you actually now blaming Merc for being hit by the Ferraris? wow.


Really!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think what the controversy does though is red flag Ferrari's hitting Mercedes cars, do the Ferrari drivers then think twice about being overly aggressive because I would be guessing the FIA might start getting concerned if it happened again?

The contact wasn't deliberate but the aggressive driving against a main rival was, this is a similar stance I made against Verstappen that if you are overly aggressive then don't be surprised to get involved in incidents.


Do you honestly think they don't really care about whether an agressive action ends in tears or not? Vettel is engaged in a very close battle with Hamilton and he knows very well that a broken front wing isn't really what he's after. Likewise for Kimi, he could have easily broken his suspension with that hit.

They were two minor mistakes, it's just a coincidence that both happened within the span of 3 races.

I'm throwing it out there if it keeps happening, at the moment it's just a coincidence, not even that really, I would say Mercedes are just kind of making the FIA take notice.

Both accidents were obviously just racing incidents even though both drivers were penalised, obviously Vettel gains nothing from such incidents when he is involved but then Mercedes might get a bit jumpy when the perceived #2 Ferrari driver hits their main title challenger, then they lump in the two incidents together just to get the FIA's attention.


I had a girlfriend once that did the same thing; started telling me off for something I hadn't done yet, but could have done. Understandably she's long gone... Let's just wait until we paint them villains (yet again), shall we?


I share Vettel's view on this, as expressed here:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... i-mercedes

I cannot remember last time that a car hit another without losing body parts or needing to change the front wing etc. It is not a good strategy, if a strategy at all. Apart from being unethical. Why oh why risk damage to your car, penalty or potential black flag when Ferrari could have maximised their points if they did the Kimi/Seb switch in the last GP? Shunting the opponents out of the way is not a tactic.

Rosberg in his vlog said the same. If this shunt was two races down the line we wouldn't be discussing it now, but because of the timing people are getting up in arms. Totto, Niki and Lewis are not helping by talking about Ferrari strategies and the lot.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:51 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Johnson wrote:

"I lost nearly 3kg trying to get back to the to today for you and my team. I barely had the energy at the end to stand, let alone talk. If you can't understand and appreciate that then I fully understand. However it was nothing to do with anger, literally just exhausted both physically and emotionally. Thanks to everyone for the incredible support this weekend, we win and lose together. Onwards and Upwards".

Silverstone is the physically most demanding track on the calendar now.


But it was the same for everybody, and everybody else did an interview. I find this to be a poor excuse.

Does everyone suffer from Asthma? He was the only one struggling to breath when interviewed and had 4-5 minutes more time to recover. Maybe, people have different levels of fitness/exhaustion?

I'm inclined to think the emotional was a bigger influence than the physical. These guys are all super fit (although in fairness the way Hamilton's car was shaking about in the onboards would probably exhaust anybody). But there again, I don't see what the big deal is about giving him some time to compose himself


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:52 pm 
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Hamilton at least has more or less retracted his comments https://i.redd.it/76lr2bmezv811.jpg and I swear I saw something from Merc on Twitter or somewhere earlier saying they didn't consider it a deliberate act, though for the life of me I can't find it now. I'd be very surprised if anybody continued pushing this theory in any kind of serious way at this point.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:58 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Hamilton at least has more or less retracted his comments https://i.redd.it/76lr2bmezv811.jpg and I swear I saw something from Merc on Twitter or somewhere earlier saying they didn't consider it a deliberate act, though for the life of me I can't find it now. I'd be very surprised if anybody continued pushing this theory in any kind of serious way at this point.


Good on him. It is unfortunate that something like this will not gain as much attention as the criticising comment, but good on him anyway


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:05 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think what the controversy does though is red flag Ferrari's hitting Mercedes cars, do the Ferrari drivers then think twice about being overly aggressive because I would be guessing the FIA might start getting concerned if it happened again?

The contact wasn't deliberate but the aggressive driving against a main rival was, this is a similar stance I made against Verstappen that if you are overly aggressive then don't be surprised to get involved in incidents.


Do you honestly think they don't really care about whether an agressive action ends in tears or not? Vettel is engaged in a very close battle with Hamilton and he knows very well that a broken front wing isn't really what he's after. Likewise for Kimi, he could have easily broken his suspension with that hit.

They were two minor mistakes, it's just a coincidence that both happened within the span of 3 races.

I'm throwing it out there if it keeps happening, at the moment it's just a coincidence, not even that really, I would say Mercedes are just kind of making the FIA take notice.

Both accidents were obviously just racing incidents even though both drivers were penalised, obviously Vettel gains nothing from such incidents when he is involved but then Mercedes might get a bit jumpy when the perceived #2 Ferrari driver hits their main title challenger, then they lump in the two incidents together just to get the FIA's attention.


I had a girlfriend once that did the same thing; started telling me off for something I hadn't done yet, but could have done. Understandably she's long gone... Let's just wait until we paint them villains (yet again), shall we?


I share Vettel's view on this, as expressed here:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... i-mercedes

I cannot remember last time that a car hit another without losing body parts or needing to change the front wing etc. It is not a good strategy, if a strategy at all. Apart from being unethical. Why oh why risk damage to your car, penalty or potential black flag when Ferrari could have maximised their points if they did the Kimi/Seb switch in the last GP? Shunting the opponents out of the way is not a tactic.

Rosberg in his vlog said the same. If this shunt was two races down the line we wouldn't be discussing it now, but because of the timing people are getting up in arms. Totto, Niki and Lewis are not helping by talking about Ferrari strategies and the lot.


Indeed, its a completely illogical strategy especially Vettel hitting Bottas in France. Zero win out of that.

What we might see though is number 2's, fighting number 1's very hard in the future.

I can see the usually conservative Bottas being told "race Vettel as hard (legally) as you wish, make it as hard as possible within the rules. If you happen to collide then no problem. We will back you, you have earned your new contract already..."


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:07 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Johnson wrote:

"I lost nearly 3kg trying to get back to the to today for you and my team. I barely had the energy at the end to stand, let alone talk. If you can't understand and appreciate that then I fully understand. However it was nothing to do with anger, literally just exhausted both physically and emotionally. Thanks to everyone for the incredible support this weekend, we win and lose together. Onwards and Upwards".

Silverstone is the physically most demanding track on the calendar now.


But it was the same for everybody, and everybody else did an interview. I find this to be a poor excuse.

Does everyone suffer from Asthma? He was the only one struggling to breath when interviewed and had 4-5 minutes more time to recover. Maybe, people have different levels of fitness/exhaustion?

I'm inclined to think the emotional was a bigger influence than the physical. These guys are all super fit (although in fairness the way Hamilton's car was shaking about in the onboards would probably exhaust anybody). But there again, I don't see what the big deal is about giving him some time to compose himself


Neither is a big deal, but it was clear Hamilton was still out of breath even 5 minutes after so to discredit him and "say its the same for everyone" is nonsense. Hamilton is also often out of breath over the radio since we moved to these faster cars and has been seen using Asthma pump pre race (although he tried to hide it). It doesn't matter how fit you are if you airway starts closing up.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Johnson wrote:

"I lost nearly 3kg trying to get back to the to today for you and my team. I barely had the energy at the end to stand, let alone talk. If you can't understand and appreciate that then I fully understand. However it was nothing to do with anger, literally just exhausted both physically and emotionally. Thanks to everyone for the incredible support this weekend, we win and lose together. Onwards and Upwards".

Silverstone is the physically most demanding track on the calendar now.


But it was the same for everybody, and everybody else did an interview. I find this to be a poor excuse.

Does everyone suffer from Asthma? He was the only one struggling to breath when interviewed and had 4-5 minutes more time to recover. Maybe, people have different levels of fitness/exhaustion?

I'm inclined to think the emotional was a bigger influence than the physical. These guys are all super fit (although in fairness the way Hamilton's car was shaking about in the onboards would probably exhaust anybody). But there again, I don't see what the big deal is about giving him some time to compose himself


Neither is a big deal, but it was clear Hamilton was still out of breath even 5 minutes after so to discredit him and "say its the same for everyone" is nonsense. Hamilton is also often out of breath over the radio since we moved to these faster cars and has been seen using Asthma pump pre race (although he tried to hide it). It doesn't matter how fit you are if you airway starts closing up.

I didn't realise he had asthma, tbh.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I didn't realise he had asthma, tbh.


Allergic to pollen amongst a number of other things. I remember him being sent home from the track around 2013 because of allergy bought on by high pollen count.


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