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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:21 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Step 1: Bring in new leadership
Step 2: Acquire additional sponsorship (they will never return to the front with their current budget)
Step 3: Allow Alonso to move on (he's the guy you get when you're ready to fight for a title; not when you are trying to build up to that point)
Step 4: Formulate a long-term strategy that features a plan to regain works team status and that focuses on capitalizing on the 2021 regs overhaul

Do all of this and they might make it. If they are still nowhere in 2021, you will never again see McLaren as a top team.

I think 2 and 3 have the potential to conflict. Alonso brings the team headlines and sponsors might be keen to see some of that. I think there are benefits to keeping Alonso, both for that and the fact that without him McLaren would likely sink even lower in the WCC rankings, which in turns loses money. Otherwise plan seems sound, depending of course on whether new manufacturers contemplate entering the sport after the new regs are finalised

You make a good point but you also have to consider the cost side of Alonso. He's one of the three highest paid drivers in F1 (along with Hamilton and Vettel). I'm not sure how much additional sponsorship he brings to the team but it would have to greatly offset that cost to be worth it. As you mentioned earlier in the thread, McLaren have left a lot of money on the table in their negotiations with potential sponsors. They need to swallow their pride and fill up that chassis with logos already.

Mostly I just think that moving on from Alonso creates an organization that has congruence with itself; where all stakeholders are properly aligned. Patience and a long-term focus is where they need to be right now. The sense of urgency that comes with the constant "when will you give Alonso a great car" narrative is not actually what they need at the moment.


Agree!

This team needs a "fresh start", maybe Eric was able to secure the McLeren job due to the resuls Lotus was able to get, but it begs the question of what was Eric real contribution to that, I just never rated him well, something missing.

Now that Eric is gone and well aware of all the positives Alonso brings, I will put some presaure on Alonso to shut him up, stop talking or leave. Sometimes it seems Alonso has this tean hostage, everybody in fear of what will be his next radio outburst, justified or not and that helps bring down team morale. Alonso wants to always make the team "his team" by using what he says as ammunition.

I think Alonso needs to leave, for his and the teams sake, let him go to WEC, sort the car out and Stoff will get better and a new driver with new perspective and attitude will also produce points. The net effect on championship points might be +0 with both drivers sharing the load with a better car and Alonso out, but the team will be in a better place to improve

Im not saying Alonso is the cause and not having him might be a negative at first, but in the long run it will be the best thing to do. The team does not need this Alonso pressure right now.

There's a couple of ways of looking at it. McLaren have given Alonso all the power. Right now I believe he's the CEO in everything but name. And it's the McLaren team that have made that happen. Alonso's top drive options are spent, so effectively running McLaren is his next best option. I guess he's just praying that the upcoming regulation changes suit the midfield teams - something that Liberty wants to happen. I doubt the 2019 changes will do much, but maybe the 2021 rules will.

McLaren could start fresh with Lando Norris. But in all reality, they'd be absolutely screwed right now without a top 5 driver. Without Alonso they'd probably be behind Sauber, languishing at 9th in the points table. And being embarrassed by Toro Rosso-Honda while they're at it.

McLaren need Alonso as much as Alonso needs McLaren. They're both stuck in a never-ending spiral of underachievement. But neither side sees a way out without the other.

Saying that, I think he will do IndyCar. But my guess is that he'd come back, Schumacher-esque. The old master showing that he's still got it. I could be wrong - I've speculated many things about Alonso's career and have often ended up completely wrong.


Mclaren does not need Alonso, should Alonso leave Mclaren will continue function and at a high level, this was said at Ferrari as well, but lo and behold Ferrari went up a gear.

Should Mclaren say bye to Alonso today his F1 career is done.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:26 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Mclaren does not need Alonso, should Alonso leave Mclaren will continue function and at a high level, this was said at Ferrari as well, but lo and behold Ferrari went up a gear.

Should Mclaren say bye to Alonso today his F1 career is done.

McLaren would be screwed without a top 5 driver in their car. He's the sole reason they're not battling Williams and Sauber at the bottom of the points table.

And Ferrari still haven't won anything since he left. They've never made to a title showdown with Vettel, so regardless of their better pace these days they still haven't gotten as close as they did with Alonso in their car. Maybe they'll make it this year, maybe they won't. I won't be surprised if they don't... again.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:29 pm 
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Rockie wrote:

Mclaren does not need Alonso, should Alonso leave Mclaren will continue function and at a high level, this was said at Ferrari as well, but lo and behold Ferrari went up a gear.



same can be said for any driver.

In the end, they are all replaceable.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:52 am 
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Rockie wrote:

Mclaren does not need Alonso, should Alonso leave Mclaren will continue function and at a high level, this was said at Ferrari as well, but lo and behold Ferrari went up a gear.

Should Mclaren say bye to Alonso today his F1 career is done.



Ferrari got Vettel to replace Alonso. Another top tier driver. And he went there because Ferrari is works team with a budget and were never really as bad as current McLaren is in recent past,
McLaren does not have sponsors, does not have budget of top teams because of it, does not have works deal, in fact they terminated the works deal which was used to get Alonso onboard.
If Alonso is let go which he might do himself anyway, no top tier proven driver will sign for McLaren at the moment.

As far as McLaren functioning at high level, LOL.....they havent been functioning at high level for a long long time now. If they get to their 2013 level where they finished 5th in next 2 years, that will be a miracle.

So yeah, at the moment they need Alonso as much as Alonso needs them if he wants to be in F1. IF he goes, McLaren cannot make progress. No sponsors, no cutting edge rapid development because of it. Its all interlinked.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:29 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Mclaren does not need Alonso, should Alonso leave Mclaren will continue function and at a high level, this was said at Ferrari as well, but lo and behold Ferrari went up a gear.

Should Mclaren say bye to Alonso today his F1 career is done.



Ferrari got Vettel to replace Alonso. Another top tier driver. And he went there because Ferrari is works team with a budget and were never really as bad as current McLaren is in recent past,
McLaren does not have sponsors, does not have budget of top teams because of it, does not have works deal, in fact they terminated the works deal which was used to get Alonso onboard.
If Alonso is let go which he might do himself anyway, no top tier proven driver will sign for McLaren at the moment.

As far as McLaren functioning at high level, LOL.....they havent been functioning at high level for a long long time now. If they get to their 2013 level where they finished 5th in next 2 years, that will be a miracle.

So yeah, at the moment they need Alonso as much as Alonso needs them if he wants to be in F1. IF he goes, McLaren cannot make progress. No sponsors, no cutting edge rapid development because of it. Its all interlinked.


Indeed. It has been a long time since McLaren has functioned at a high level.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:02 am 
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Wouldn't be surprised to learn that Alonso had his finger in all of this.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:02 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Mclaren does not need Alonso, should Alonso leave Mclaren will continue function and at a high level, this was said at Ferrari as well, but lo and behold Ferrari went up a gear.

Should Mclaren say bye to Alonso today his F1 career is done.

McLaren would be screwed without a top 5 driver in their car. He's the sole reason they're not battling Williams and Sauber at the bottom of the points table.

And Ferrari still haven't won anything since he left. They've never made to a title showdown with Vettel, so regardless of their better pace these days they still haven't gotten as close as they did with Alonso in their car. Maybe they'll make it this year, maybe they won't. I won't be surprised if they don't... again.


Mclaren are already screwed as they are it's better to go back and rebuild like Ferrari did, as for having a top five driver, it's not as worthy as having top engineers bilding the car.

As per Ferrari whether they have won on not are on an upward trajectory which is where they need to be, if you are going to compare Ferrari vs Redbull to Mercedes vs Redbull I rest my case.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:03 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Mclaren does not need Alonso, should Alonso leave Mclaren will continue function and at a high level, this was said at Ferrari as well, but lo and behold Ferrari went up a gear.



same can be said for any driver.

In the end, they are all replaceable.


Which is what I was responding to.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:10 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Mclaren does not need Alonso, should Alonso leave Mclaren will continue function and at a high level, this was said at Ferrari as well, but lo and behold Ferrari went up a gear.

Should Mclaren say bye to Alonso today his F1 career is done.



Ferrari got Vettel to replace Alonso. Another top tier driver. And he went there because Ferrari is works team with a budget and were never really as bad as current McLaren is in recent past,
McLaren does not have sponsors, does not have budget of top teams because of it, does not have works deal, in fact they terminated the works deal which was used to get Alonso onboard.
If Alonso is let go which he might do himself anyway, no top tier proven driver will sign for McLaren at the moment.

As far as McLaren functioning at high level, LOL.....they havent been functioning at high level for a long long time now. If they get to their 2013 level where they finished 5th in next 2 years, that will be a miracle.

So yeah, at the moment they need Alonso as much as Alonso needs them if he wants to be in F1. IF he goes, McLaren cannot make progress. No sponsors, no cutting edge rapid development because of it. Its all interlinked.


Agree with your points, but Mclaren still functions at a high level and just needs reorganisation.

They don't need Alonso, they just need to rebuild like Ferrari did, look at Ferrari in '14 compared to '15 no one believed they could change that much.
Mclaren can as well they have the facilities they just need to get reorganised.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:23 am 
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Rockie wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Mclaren does not need Alonso, should Alonso leave Mclaren will continue function and at a high level, this was said at Ferrari as well, but lo and behold Ferrari went up a gear.

Should Mclaren say bye to Alonso today his F1 career is done.



Ferrari got Vettel to replace Alonso. Another top tier driver. And he went there because Ferrari is works team with a budget and were never really as bad as current McLaren is in recent past,
McLaren does not have sponsors, does not have budget of top teams because of it, does not have works deal, in fact they terminated the works deal which was used to get Alonso onboard.
If Alonso is let go which he might do himself anyway, no top tier proven driver will sign for McLaren at the moment.

As far as McLaren functioning at high level, LOL.....they havent been functioning at high level for a long long time now. If they get to their 2013 level where they finished 5th in next 2 years, that will be a miracle.

So yeah, at the moment they need Alonso as much as Alonso needs them if he wants to be in F1. IF he goes, McLaren cannot make progress. No sponsors, no cutting edge rapid development because of it. Its all interlinked.


Agree with your points, but Mclaren still functions at a high level and just needs reorganisation.

They don't need Alonso, they just need to rebuild like Ferrari did, look at Ferrari in '14 compared to '15 no one believed they could change that much.
Mclaren can as well they have the facilities they just need to get reorganised.

Mclaren needs Alonso because he is their best bet of getting prize money in the short term.
He also brings air time for sponsors.
Completely different circumstances to Ferrari.
Having facilities is useless if you asking your team to build development parts from wood.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:25 am 
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AravJ wrote:
Rockie wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Mclaren does not need Alonso, should Alonso leave Mclaren will continue function and at a high level, this was said at Ferrari as well, but lo and behold Ferrari went up a gear.

Should Mclaren say bye to Alonso today his F1 career is done.



Ferrari got Vettel to replace Alonso. Another top tier driver. And he went there because Ferrari is works team with a budget and were never really as bad as current McLaren is in recent past,
McLaren does not have sponsors, does not have budget of top teams because of it, does not have works deal, in fact they terminated the works deal which was used to get Alonso onboard.
If Alonso is let go which he might do himself anyway, no top tier proven driver will sign for McLaren at the moment.

As far as McLaren functioning at high level, LOL.....they havent been functioning at high level for a long long time now. If they get to their 2013 level where they finished 5th in next 2 years, that will be a miracle.

So yeah, at the moment they need Alonso as much as Alonso needs them if he wants to be in F1. IF he goes, McLaren cannot make progress. No sponsors, no cutting edge rapid development because of it. Its all interlinked.


Agree with your points, but Mclaren still functions at a high level and just needs reorganisation.

They don't need Alonso, they just need to rebuild like Ferrari did, look at Ferrari in '14 compared to '15 no one believed they could change that much.
Mclaren can as well they have the facilities they just need to get reorganised.

Mclaren needs Alonso because he is their best bet of getting prize money in the short term.
He also brings air time for sponsors.
Completely different circumstances to Ferrari.
Having facilities is useless if you asking your team to build development parts from wood.

The only sponsor I see lately because of Alonso is his own casual wear company.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:01 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Rockie wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Mclaren does not need Alonso, should Alonso leave Mclaren will continue function and at a high level, this was said at Ferrari as well, but lo and behold Ferrari went up a gear.

Should Mclaren say bye to Alonso today his F1 career is done.



Ferrari got Vettel to replace Alonso. Another top tier driver. And he went there because Ferrari is works team with a budget and were never really as bad as current McLaren is in recent past,
McLaren does not have sponsors, does not have budget of top teams because of it, does not have works deal, in fact they terminated the works deal which was used to get Alonso onboard.
If Alonso is let go which he might do himself anyway, no top tier proven driver will sign for McLaren at the moment.

As far as McLaren functioning at high level, LOL.....they havent been functioning at high level for a long long time now. If they get to their 2013 level where they finished 5th in next 2 years, that will be a miracle.

So yeah, at the moment they need Alonso as much as Alonso needs them if he wants to be in F1. IF he goes, McLaren cannot make progress. No sponsors, no cutting edge rapid development because of it. Its all interlinked.


Agree with your points, but Mclaren still functions at a high level and just needs reorganisation.

They don't need Alonso, they just need to rebuild like Ferrari did, look at Ferrari in '14 compared to '15 no one believed they could change that much.
Mclaren can as well they have the facilities they just need to get reorganised.

Mclaren needs Alonso because he is their best bet of getting prize money in the short term.
He also brings air time for sponsors.
Completely different circumstances to Ferrari.
Having facilities is useless if you asking your team to build development parts from wood.

The only sponsor I see lately because of Alonso is his own casual wear company.


It's impossible to know how many came because of him or the air time he guarantees. McLaren have 6 other new sponsors since splitting with Honda, Petrobras,Dell,FXPro,CNBC,Airgain and Gandy's.

All,some or none could've signed because of Alonso or the attention he brings.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Rockie wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:


Ferrari got Vettel to replace Alonso. Another top tier driver. And he went there because Ferrari is works team with a budget and were never really as bad as current McLaren is in recent past,
McLaren does not have sponsors, does not have budget of top teams because of it, does not have works deal, in fact they terminated the works deal which was used to get Alonso onboard.
If Alonso is let go which he might do himself anyway, no top tier proven driver will sign for McLaren at the moment.

As far as McLaren functioning at high level, LOL.....they havent been functioning at high level for a long long time now. If they get to their 2013 level where they finished 5th in next 2 years, that will be a miracle.

So yeah, at the moment they need Alonso as much as Alonso needs them if he wants to be in F1. IF he goes, McLaren cannot make progress. No sponsors, no cutting edge rapid development because of it. Its all interlinked.


Agree with your points, but Mclaren still functions at a high level and just needs reorganisation.

They don't need Alonso, they just need to rebuild like Ferrari did, look at Ferrari in '14 compared to '15 no one believed they could change that much.
Mclaren can as well they have the facilities they just need to get reorganised.

Mclaren needs Alonso because he is their best bet of getting prize money in the short term.
He also brings air time for sponsors.
Completely different circumstances to Ferrari.
Having facilities is useless if you asking your team to build development parts from wood.

The only sponsor I see lately because of Alonso is his own casual wear company.


It's impossible to know how many came because of him or the air time he guarantees. McLaren have 6 other new sponsors since splitting with Honda, Petrobras,Dell,FXPro,CNBC,Airgain and Gandy's.

All,some or none could've signed because of Alonso or the attention he brings.

And some of those that have left may also have been influenced by his continual negativity on team radio, whether true or not it isn't great PR.
The only one we know for sure either way is Kimoa (think thats the name anyway)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:09 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Agree with your points, but Mclaren still functions at a high level and just needs reorganisation.

They don't need Alonso, they just need to rebuild like Ferrari did, look at Ferrari in '14 compared to '15 no one believed they could change that much.
Mclaren can as well they have the facilities they just need to get reorganised.

Mclaren needs Alonso because he is their best bet of getting prize money in the short term.
He also brings air time for sponsors.
Completely different circumstances to Ferrari.
Having facilities is useless if you asking your team to build development parts from wood.

The only sponsor I see lately because of Alonso is his own casual wear company.


It's impossible to know how many came because of him or the air time he guarantees. McLaren have 6 other new sponsors since splitting with Honda, Petrobras,Dell,FXPro,CNBC,Airgain and Gandy's.

All,some or none could've signed because of Alonso or the attention he brings.

And some of those that have left may also have been influenced by his continual negativity on team radio, whether true or not it isn't great PR.
The only one we know for sure either way is Kimoa (think thats the name anyway)


Sounds a stretch to me, I've never heard of a sponsor leaving because of radio rants against another company, some left with Honda though, Calsonic something was one of them.

Not dropping their asking price to match competitiveness with Honda cost them Esso,Tag and Johnnie Walker.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:33 pm 
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About time he got fired.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:

It's impossible to know how many came because of him or the air time he guarantees. McLaren have 6 other new sponsors since splitting with Honda, Petrobras,Dell,FXPro,CNBC,Airgain and Gandy's.

All,some or none could've signed because of Alonso or the attention he brings.


Agree. I would say "most likely most signed because of alonso" to your last sentence. I mean Alonso Is a big value proposition compared to signing with any other midfield team. Alonso also brought more points than any single driver to any single midfield team this season, I think K Mag just overtook him in the last race. What I am getting at here is that he consistently gets the maximum out of the car that makes the car seem better than it is compared to a driver like Stoffel. This could have led to good value prop for sponsors.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:02 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised to learn that Alonso had his finger in all of this.


Why do you say that?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:33 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
anyone at mclaren involved in cutting honda, to keep alonso, ought to be fired

Not calling you out per say but OMG last year all people could do was say how Honda was a steaming pile of manure and how McLaren couldn't get away from them quick enough, and that Honda was/is a total and utter disasterously embarrassing failure. And now McLaren should have stayed the course with Honda??!?!?!?!???

I wish people would pick a side of the fence and live with their decision.

I never doubted Honda for a single minute and I urged people to be patient and wait until they figure things out because Honda has won more races in more categories than any other manufacturer in the history of man kind and no one knows this stuff better than them. Please don't bring up the Porsche thing because they don't do motorcycle/motocross, karting, Jet Ski, or Snowmobile racing, or anything other than 4-wheels. Honda even produces their own jet engines fer cryin' out loud and the one thing Honda powered vehicles do is win!

They might not be the best engine in F1 currently, but they will continue to improve and I'm quite interested to see how well the Red Bulls powered by Honda will do.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:29 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pc27b wrote:
anyone at mclaren involved in cutting honda, to keep alonso, ought to be fired

Not calling you out per say but OMG last year all people could do was say how Honda was a steaming pile of manure and how McLaren couldn't get away from them quick enough, and that Honda was/is a total and utter disasterously embarrassing failure. And now McLaren should have stayed the course with Honda??!?!?!?!???

I wish people would pick a side of the fence and live with their decision.

I never doubted Honda for a single minute and I urged people to be patient and wait until they figure things out because Honda has won more races in more categories than any other manufacturer in the history of man kind and no one knows this stuff better than them. Please don't bring up the Porsche thing because they don't do motorcycle/motocross, karting, Jet Ski, or Snowmobile racing, or anything other than 4-wheels. Honda even produces their own jet engines fer cryin' out loud and the one thing Honda powered vehicles do is win!

They might not be the best engine in F1 currently, but they will continue to improve and I'm quite interested to see how well the Red Bulls powered by Honda will do.

I've always believed they should have stuck with Honda, just because more people were vocal about dumping them doesn't mean you were alone in thinking they were the best option!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:14 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pc27b wrote:
anyone at mclaren involved in cutting honda, to keep alonso, ought to be fired

Not calling you out per say but OMG last year all people could do was say how Honda was a steaming pile of manure and how McLaren couldn't get away from them quick enough, and that Honda was/is a total and utter disasterously embarrassing failure. And now McLaren should have stayed the course with Honda??!?!?!?!???

I wish people would pick a side of the fence and live with their decision.

I never doubted Honda for a single minute and I urged people to be patient and wait until they figure things out because Honda has won more races in more categories than any other manufacturer in the history of man kind and no one knows this stuff better than them. Please don't bring up the Porsche thing because they don't do motorcycle/motocross, karting, Jet Ski, or Snowmobile racing, or anything other than 4-wheels. Honda even produces their own jet engines fer cryin' out loud and the one thing Honda powered vehicles do is win!

They might not be the best engine in F1 currently, but they will continue to improve and I'm quite interested to see how well the Red Bulls powered by Honda will do.


i was most certainly not in the "dump honda" crowd


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:01 am 
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Despite all the evidence of performance with Renault PU and now the senior overhaul some people will still believe last year's car was could fight top three. People just don't want to admit being wrong. Even Zak is half and half. He said"Did we have a better chassis? It would be hard to say definitively yes or no but we know we have less downforce than last year."Like what is that supposed to mean, did they have even more drag last year, if his technical team cannot tell him for sure then last year's car must have been a dud. Zak should also go if he believes firing people 8 months after the last time they might have had a better chassis is a good thing to do.
He should properly own up and be an example if he wants to fix systemic issues, accountability and ways of working.
Else mclaren have very little hope of returning to the top no matter who they hire or fire


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:09 am 
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Mclaren is on par with STR and Saubers on performance. I would say FI would also beat them this year. Only 2pts separate them. Though they are pretty bad financially due to which updates is taking time. I read a rumor they won't be even able to finish all races this year due to money 8O Otherwise I am sure they can beat Mclaren lol. Renault and Haas are ahead and good chance of beating Mclaren.

It is good he left before this weekend. Sooner or later this was going to happen. Mclaren is in terrible state and have been mediocre for many years IMO. It was a mistake to terminate partnership with Honda. They had to choose between Alonso or Honda as Alonso wanted Honda out. I think Alonso will not be in Mclaren or F1 next year and It is going to take them years if at all they can rise again. I think there is more hope in Renault to be best of the rest and may be fight with top teams from 2021 ? Midfield is now very competitive so it will be interesting to see how Mclaren compete against them.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:57 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
Despite all the evidence of performance with Renault PU and now the senior overhaul some people will still believe last year's car was could fight top three. People just don't want to admit being wrong. Even Zak is half and half. He said"Did we have a better chassis? It would be hard to say definitively yes or no but we know we have less downforce than last year."Like what is that supposed to mean, did they have even more drag last year, if his technical team cannot tell him for sure then last year's car must have been a dud. Zak should also go if he believes firing people 8 months after the last time they might have had a better chassis is a good thing to do.
He should properly own up and be an example if he wants to fix systemic issues, accountability and ways of working.
Else mclaren have very little hope of returning to the top no matter who they hire or fire

Eric resigned, he wasn't fired!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:58 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Despite all the evidence of performance with Renault PU and now the senior overhaul some people will still believe last year's car was could fight top three. People just don't want to admit being wrong. Even Zak is half and half. He said"Did we have a better chassis? It would be hard to say definitively yes or no but we know we have less downforce than last year."Like what is that supposed to mean, did they have even more drag last year, if his technical team cannot tell him for sure then last year's car must have been a dud. Zak should also go if he believes firing people 8 months after the last time they might have had a better chassis is a good thing to do.
He should properly own up and be an example if he wants to fix systemic issues, accountability and ways of working.
Else mclaren have very little hope of returning to the top no matter who they hire or fire

Eric resigned, he wasn't fired!

Same thing. Do you really believe he was not told.
Just a few Weekes ago he was ademant he would not resign in the press conference.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:45 pm 
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It was actually more than that. Everyone from McLaren that was asked if there was trouble in paradise was adamant in saying No. they made light of offering employees bonuses in the way of chocolate bars and how that was always something they’ve done at McLaren.

I said it when it was announced that Ron Dennis was fired that the team will be lost without him or someone else he hand picks to run the outfit. Dennis “IS” was and forever will be McLaren and without his influence or input it’s just another team. I never wished I was more wrong, but I wasn’t and Zak Brown is proving to be as unfit to lead the company as I said all along. Running an F1 team is a far greater undertaking than in most other realms and simply appointing someone based on their resume is a huge mistake.

It’s the same in my line of work and in my last company the corporate investment firm that bought the company interviewed countless people with deep resumes and in the end they hired the idiot with the most “experience”. In the end the moron was found to know absolutely ZERO about running any entity in the creative industry. His $3500 Ferragamo shoes and ridiculously obnoxious glasses turned out not to be indicators of any sort of innovative genius!

There are capable people out there to take the reigns of companies but they must be groomed and slowly integrated into the fibers of said companies because all the supposed accolades and accomplishments garnered elsewhere don’t necessarily guarantee a person will produce the same results and help a company become successful.

Having said that, Boullier is one that I initially questioned when he got the lead role at Lotus, but he proved myself and countless other doubters wrong and he got Lotus firing on all cylinders and he was a big reason behind their success. McLaren was already struggling before he arrived so I feel this might be a bit of a fall guy situation, if he was asked to resign. If it was of his own accord, then perhaps it’s telling of just how serious the issues are at McLaren.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:57 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Despite all the evidence of performance with Renault PU and now the senior overhaul some people will still believe last year's car was could fight top three. People just don't want to admit being wrong. Even Zak is half and half. He said"Did we have a better chassis? It would be hard to say definitively yes or no but we know we have less downforce than last year."Like what is that supposed to mean, did they have even more drag last year, if his technical team cannot tell him for sure then last year's car must have been a dud. Zak should also go if he believes firing people 8 months after the last time they might have had a better chassis is a good thing to do.
He should properly own up and be an example if he wants to fix systemic issues, accountability and ways of working.
Else mclaren have very little hope of returning to the top no matter who they hire or fire

Eric resigned, he wasn't fired!


He was fired.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:56 pm 
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McLaren don't need Alonso? - Well, if they want to go down the Williams route, then definetely not ...


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:38 pm 
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I read a post on another site that made me think. Last week everyone realized exactly where Mclaren are.

Had it not been for Alonso keeping them afloat with his (tempted to say .7 here but i won't :twisted: ) good performances, they would probably realized a lot sooner.

So was he good for them or bad for them? Without him they would have ended last season way down, but may have blamed Honda anyway, or may have started the turn around last year and stayed with Honda?

I do believe they were right to move from Honda, although I did not at the time, because they had both painted them selves into a corner.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:59 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
McLaren don't need Alonso? - Well, if they want to go down the Williams route, then definetely not ...


If I were the boss I would definitely go with Honda if it was between Alonso and Honda. But in a way it was good for both parties to get separated as it seems it was not good environment. Both Honda and Renault have to chance to prove themselves next year so it will interesting to see who will come on top. But since RBR is more competitive to Ferrari and Mercedes during races and Renault, Mclaren also do better in race suggest Renault is more efficient, has advantage at least during race.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:27 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
McLaren don't need Alonso? - Well, if they want to go down the Williams route, then definetely not ...


That's the problem with Alonso.. it is always about him him and him again.
The same was said when he left Ferrari(he was their biggest asset and they would not do better).. the man himself and his manager Briatore, even said so but look at Ferrari today how they managed to build a seriously fast car that BOTH drivers(Vettel and Raikkonen) can drive and take pole. Are you sure Alonso and Raikkonen would have similar performances if Alonso was still there? I doubt it and if you think otherwise it would mean that Alonso would have taken pole every weekend with a 0.5 seconds gap every single time(based on their past history).

With Alonso it is always "look how far back his teammate is.. +1 second wow. Immagine what he could have done if he was driving a Mercedes or a Ferrari now".
Formula 1 doesn't work how many think it does and using teammate as a comparison is the biggest fallacy of all. For all we know Vandoorne who is clearly NOT future top driver(he is too soft) could have a much better performance with another teammate but then again people will look at the gap and say "but Alonso was always 1 second faster than Vandoorne, so Alonso is clearly better than the new driver".

Teams are not interested in watching one driver win the teammate war with a perfect 20/0 score. They want to WIN championships and they want both the drivers to be competitive.

Ironically last time Ferrari won their championship was when BOTH the drivers had similar performances(Massa & Raikkonen), just like Hamilton & Rosberg or Verstappen & Ricciardo. It is in the team's best interest to ensure BOTH the drivers have similar performances. McLaren is a failure everywhere with a bunch of clueless people running it to the ground.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:07 am 
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I’ve always felt that Alonso is better at qualifying with a bad car than with a good car.

In 2007, the qualifying battle between him and Hamilton was 10-7. However, Hamilton took 6 poles while Alonso took only 2. That’s because whenever McLaren was the fastest car, Hamilton had an extra gear compared to Alonso. However, on weekends when Ferrari was the best car and McLaren struggled, Alonso would outqualify Hamilton.

Alonso took two dry pole positions in five seasons at Ferrari. However, there were a couple of other weekends when Ferrari had the best car but Alonso didn’t put the lap together. Massa was faster than Webber at Germany 2010 and Canada 2011, but on both occasions Vettel snatched pole from Alonso.

This is why I don’t buy the argument from people who argue that Alonso is faster than Vettel because he beat Kimi by a bigger margin. The F14T was a terrible car to drive. In those kinds of cars, Alonso performs better relative to his teammate. If you put Alonso and Kimi in a great car, the gap would shrink dramatically.

There was one weekend in 2014 where Ferrari had a car capable of fighting for pole position. That was Singapore, because Mercedes struggled to get the tyres in the right temperature. You know what happened in Singapore? Kimi was on Alonso’s pace throughout the whole qualifying session, and only ended up 0.163s behind because his car failed and he couldn’t set a last attempt in Q3.

Alonso’s huge qualifying advantage over Raikkonen suddenly disappeared completely when Ferrari had a car capable of pole position.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:40 am 
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Guys, seriously, the "theory" that Alonso is only fast 7n bad cars just sounds desperate. And the nonsense that he makes the car undrivable for his teammate at the expense of overall competitiveness is - just nonsense.

The truth is that with two Vandoorne's McLaren would already almost be where Williams are now - and despite Vandoorne presmably being much better than than each of the Williams drivers.

Williams followed the strategy "don't spend money on drivers, focus on th car only" - and they are dead last now.

I understand why people dislike Alonso as a person. But this does not change the fact that he is one of the best drivers on the grid. While on their best days, there may be nothing between them speed-wise, of course Alonso is overall better than Vettel. Neither would Vettel drag the McLaren to the results Alonso does, nor would Alonso throw away so many promising races as Vettel last season and this season (Baku, Singapore, Mexico, Baku again, France ...).

Still, IMO, Vettel is the nicer guy interview-wise.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:10 am 
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Since the thread was originally about Boullier leaving, it has expanded into a wider discussion of McLarens woes, which is fair enough cos that is what threads tend to do. But going back to the Boullier bit, we know he has been replaced by Gil De Ferran. I remember his name as a very good driver with a few really big successes, and then a moderately successful team owner/manager for a while. But I cannot find much news about him for the last eight years. Does anyone know what he has been doing recently? Does anyone know enough about his skills and experience to hazard a guess what he brings to McLaren that Boullier could not? Were McLaren’s recent failures down to Boullier, or are they a combination poor design staff or poor wind tunnel, computer or other technical stuff?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
McLaren don't need Alonso? - Well, if they want to go down the Williams route, then definetely not ...


That's the problem with Alonso.. it is always about him him and him again.
The same was said when he left Ferrari(he was their biggest asset and they would not do better).. the man himself and his manager Briatore, even said so but look at Ferrari today how they managed to build a seriously fast car that BOTH drivers(Vettel and Raikkonen) can drive and take pole. Are you sure Alonso and Raikkonen would have similar performances if Alonso was still there? I doubt it and if you think otherwise it would mean that Alonso would have taken pole every weekend with a 0.5 seconds gap every single time(based on their past history).

With Alonso it is always "look how far back his teammate is.. +1 second wow. Immagine what he could have done if he was driving a Mercedes or a Ferrari now".
Formula 1 doesn't work how many think it does and using teammate as a comparison is the biggest fallacy of all. For all we know Vandoorne who is clearly NOT future top driver(he is too soft) could have a much better performance with another teammate but then again people will look at the gap and say "but Alonso was always 1 second faster than Vandoorne, so Alonso is clearly better than the new driver".

Teams are not interested in watching one driver win the teammate war with a perfect 20/0 score. They want to WIN championships and they want both the drivers to be competitive.

Ironically last time Ferrari won their championship was when BOTH the drivers had similar performances(Massa & Raikkonen), just like Hamilton & Rosberg or Verstappen & Ricciardo. It is in the team's best interest to ensure BOTH the drivers have similar performances. McLaren is a failure everywhere with a bunch of clueless people running it to the ground.


This I have said many times.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:54 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I’ve always felt that Alonso is better at qualifying with a bad car than with a good car.

In 2007, the qualifying battle between him and Hamilton was 10-7. However, Hamilton took 6 poles while Alonso took only 2. That’s because whenever McLaren was the fastest car, Hamilton had an extra gear compared to Alonso. However, on weekends when Ferrari was the best car and McLaren struggled, Alonso would outqualify Hamilton.

Alonso took two dry pole positions in five seasons at Ferrari. However, there were a couple of other weekends when Ferrari had the best car but Alonso didn’t put the lap together. Massa was faster than Webber at Germany 2010 and Canada 2011, but on both occasions Vettel snatched pole from Alonso.

This is why I don’t buy the argument from people who argue that Alonso is faster than Vettel because he beat Kimi by a bigger margin. The F14T was a terrible car to drive. In those kinds of cars, Alonso performs better relative to his teammate. If you put Alonso and Kimi in a great car, the gap would shrink dramatically.

There was one weekend in 2014 where Ferrari had a car capable of fighting for pole position. That was Singapore, because Mercedes struggled to get the tyres in the right temperature. You know what happened in Singapore? Kimi was on Alonso’s pace throughout the whole qualifying session, and only ended up 0.163s behind because his car failed and he couldn’t set a last attempt in Q3.

Alonso’s huge qualifying advantage over Raikkonen suddenly disappeared completely when Ferrari had a car capable of pole position.


It also came down sometimes simply to who had fuel preference on which track. If Lewis had it on a McLaren track it meant pole (Like Silverstone where Alonso was nearly 4ths quicker fuel corrected) whereas if Alonso had it on a Ferrari track it didn't. Silverstone alone changes that pole score to 5-3.

And what on earth makes you think Ferrari could've poled Singapore in 2014? They were 4th fastest, behind Mercedes,Red Bull and Williams, yet anytime Alonso gets within half a second of a pole it should be his, it's like we're back in 2012 again.

Who knows what Kimi could've done in the last run but I doubt he finds half a second to take pole, I doubt he'd have even got Alonso in the end but if he did it wouldn't be by enough to get pole. Sometimes Kimi could get close, sometimes he couldn't and sometimes he beat him. He beat him earlier in the season on a track they were 5th fastest in Spain for example.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:57 pm 
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For what it's worth I do think gaps come down the better the car is but that's true for everyone, not just Alonso.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:22 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Despite all the evidence of performance with Renault PU and now the senior overhaul some people will still believe last year's car was could fight top three. People just don't want to admit being wrong. Even Zak is half and half. He said"Did we have a better chassis? It would be hard to say definitively yes or no but we know we have less downforce than last year."Like what is that supposed to mean, did they have even more drag last year, if his technical team cannot tell him for sure then last year's car must have been a dud. Zak should also go if he believes firing people 8 months after the last time they might have had a better chassis is a good thing to do.
He should properly own up and be an example if he wants to fix systemic issues, accountability and ways of working.
Else mclaren have very little hope of returning to the top no matter who they hire or fire

Eric resigned, he wasn't fired!


He was fired.

http://www.f1i.com/news/309929-boullier ... brown.html - he took the decision to resign, though discussed it with Zak.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... anges.html - he resigned.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13719 ... chief-role - more ambiguous, but fits neatly with the F1i narrative.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/boullier- ... -campaign/ - this is the only article I can find that contradicts the above views, and does so with limited evidence.

In other words, he resigned, so stop claiming otherwise.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:07 pm 
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So, according to autosport Gasly called Honda's straightline power deficit "crazy" while Verstappen compares his engine to F2.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:01 am 
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slowestofall wrote:
Since the thread was originally about Boullier leaving, it has expanded into a wider discussion of McLarens woes, which is fair enough cos that is what threads tend to do. But going back to the Boullier bit, we know he has been replaced by Gil De Ferran. I remember his name as a very good driver with a few really big successes, and then a moderately successful team owner/manager for a while. But I cannot find much news about him for the last eight years. Does anyone know what he has been doing recently? Does anyone know enough about his skills and experience to hazard a guess what he brings to McLaren that Boullier could not? Were McLaren’s recent failures down to Boullier, or are they a combination poor design staff or poor wind tunnel, computer or other technical stuff?

De Ferran had returned to karting for fun about 12 years ago. I know because I Bought one of his spare chassis from the shop who tunes and stores all his karts.
Being Brazilian, he supports Kart Mini which is a Brazilian kart chassis manufacturer and he runs the Master model which is one of the stiffer and more difficult kart chassis in existence but given his experience he's able to yield better results than most running a Kart Mini chassis. Their site is abysmal and customer support is an atrocity in my experience but they have a healthy following somehow here in South Florida thanks to the significant Brazilian population here.

In between his karting he's continued to run and manage teams with relative success but tracking down actual figures is difficult.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if he struggled to figure things out, but he may surprise everyone and prove to be what the team needs.

As for him as a racing driver, he was pretty darned good overall but he didn't stick around as long as he should/could have.

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HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:43 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
starting to sound like Ferrari's reaction to underperformance of the car, lets hope they get the turnaround Ferrari finally did...

Yes. I like how people criticised Ferrari when they were saying Ferrari was just looking for scapegoats. If organisation that has more than enough money isn't working, you have to look at people and this is what happened at Ferrari. It certainly wasn't pleasant processes, but it worked well. Now it's question whether whoever is highest in hierarchy at McLaren isn't afraid of making huge changes.

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