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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:08 am 
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If:

1. Vettel wins the 2018 championship for Ferrari
2. Ricciardo or Alonso become his teammate for 2019 and he beats them

Then any doubt about Vettel would be eradicated and he’d be universally considered an all-time great.

Number one has a 50/50 chance of occurring. Number two is sadly very unlikely.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:16 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo has never raced against anyone outside of the Red Bull program. Webber raced against a young Rosberg, Heidfeld, Coulthard, etc... so we have a very good idea of how he compared with the rest of the grid. I don’t rate Webber inferior to Massa in any way, for example. Every teammate of Webber has praised his speed.


How fast you rate Vettel depends almost entirely on if you're willing to write the 2014 season off as an outlier. It's a shame we will never truly get to find out as Ricciardo and Vettel look very unlikely to be team mates again.


More like looking at the '14 season as an abnormal season for him.

So over his career so far all he has done is negated by the '14 season, the kind of warped thinking you get on the internet defies logic.

A man went on and won 9 straight races has 4 titles, but one season for some reason he wasn't up to it is the season that defines him, notwithstanding he went to Ferrari the following year without any change in regulations and his performance was like night and day.


I don't understand what you're saying here.... Your first sentence says exactly the same thing as i am saying. I don't understand your second sentence at all. Negated to what? I don't think anyone regards Vettel as an average driver?

2014 doesn't define him but to now where he stands in the pecking order among the big 5 we need to know if 2014 is reflective of the genuine performance of Vettel or Ricciardo or if it was an outlier. Vettel left after 2014 so the question mark is still there.

It would be very unfair on Ricciardo to just dismiss 2014 without any further evidence.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:35 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
If:

1. Vettel wins the 2018 championship for Ferrari
2. Ricciardo or Alonso become his teammate for 2019 and he beats them

Then any doubt about Vettel would be eradicated and he’d be universally considered an all-time great.

Number one has a 50/50 chance of occurring. Number two is sadly very unlikely.


Number one isn't a certainty for greatness...

Just look at 2017 and Hamiltons title, at this point he was behind in the points and up until Hungary both packages were relatively equal (Mercedes with slight edge) but post Hungary Mercedes car pulled away and Japan and Malaysia happened to Vettel and it became an 'easy' Hamilton title rather than a 'great' career defining one.

2018 can easily go the same way, Vettel can win the title and it not be 'great', especially if he has a car advantage and/or reliability on his side in the 2nd half. The exact same can be said of Hamilton of course. Although its also still open for them to have their career defining season too.

I also think, without 2014 Vettel would probably be considered the best of this generation or at very least Hamilton's equal. My feeling is that the general consensus is Hamilton is slightly ahead in terms of legacy up to this point. What happens with Vettels next team mate will define his legacy I feel


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
If:

1. Vettel wins the 2018 championship for Ferrari
2. Ricciardo or Alonso become his teammate for 2019 and he beats them

Then any doubt about Vettel would be eradicated and he’d be universally considered an all-time great.

Number one has a 50/50 chance of occurring. Number two is sadly very unlikely.


Number one isn't a certainty for greatness...

Just look at 2017 and Hamiltons title, at this point he was behind in the points and up until Hungary both packages were relatively equal (Mercedes with slight edge) but post Hungary Mercedes car pulled away and Japan and Malaysia happened to Vettel and it became an 'easy' Hamilton title rather than a 'great' career defining one.

2018 can easily go the same way, Vettel can win the title and it not be 'great', especially if he has a car advantage and/or reliability on his side in the 2nd half. The exact same can be said of Hamilton of course. Although its also still open for them to have their career defining season too.

Don't think 2 would do any more to prove he's a great either, anyone coming into the team would be at a disadvantage at least at the start of the season.

I'm not commenting either way on whether he is by making this comment, just don't think that one thing would be enough to sway it either way if extra proof is needed...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:58 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
If:

1. Vettel wins the 2018 championship for Ferrari
2. Ricciardo or Alonso become his teammate for 2019 and he beats them

Then any doubt about Vettel would be eradicated and he’d be universally considered an all-time great.

Number one has a 50/50 chance of occurring. Number two is sadly very unlikely.

Vettel is already an all-time great. He doesn't need to do anything else to be seen as such.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:03 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
If:

1. Vettel wins the 2018 championship for Ferrari
2. Ricciardo or Alonso become his teammate for 2019 and he beats them

Then any doubt about Vettel would be eradicated and he’d be universally considered an all-time great.

Number one has a 50/50 chance of occurring. Number two is sadly very unlikely.

Vettel is already an all-time great. He doesn't need to do anything else to be seen as such.

You missed out on the "universally" bit. I think there are fair few on this forum and elsewhere in F1 fandom who wouldn't agree that Vettel is an all-time great.

Personally I prefer to wait until after a driver finishes his career before deciding on their legacy, but I'm willing to say that if he retired tomorrow he'd rate well into the top ten for me which would classify him as an all-time great.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:28 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
If:

1. Vettel wins the 2018 championship for Ferrari
2. Ricciardo or Alonso become his teammate for 2019 and he beats them

Then any doubt about Vettel would be eradicated and he’d be universally considered an all-time great.

Number one has a 50/50 chance of occurring. Number two is sadly very unlikely.

Vettel is already an all-time great. He doesn't need to do anything else to be seen as such.

You missed out on the "universally" bit. I think there are fair few on this forum and elsewhere in F1 fandom who wouldn't agree that Vettel is an all-time great.

Personally I prefer to wait until after a driver finishes his career before deciding on their legacy, but I'm willing to say that if he retired tomorrow he'd rate well into the top ten for me which would classify him as an all-time great.

I can certainly understand that perspective. I don't think anyone is truly "universally" regarded as great if by "universally" you mean that literally everyone thinks they are great.

Ultimately, I think that Vettel has objectively achieved quite a lot in the sport. He's won 4 titles and counting. Also he's soon to move into third on the all-time wins list and is 4th on the all-time list in pole positions. When you are in the all time top 5 in wins, poles and WDCs, I think you have to be considered an all-time great.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo has never raced against anyone outside of the Red Bull program. Webber raced against a young Rosberg, Heidfeld, Coulthard, etc... so we have a very good idea of how he compared with the rest of the grid. I don’t rate Webber inferior to Massa in any way, for example. Every teammate of Webber has praised his speed.


How fast you rate Vettel depends almost entirely on if you're willing to write the 2014 season off as an outlier. It's a shame we will never truly get to find out as Ricciardo and Vettel look very unlikely to be team mates again.


More like looking at the '14 season as an abnormal season for him.

So over his career so far all he has done is negated by the '14 season, the kind of warped thinking you get on the internet defies logic.

A man went on and won 9 straight races has 4 titles, but one season for some reason he wasn't up to it is the season that defines him, notwithstanding he went to Ferrari the following year without any change in regulations and his performance was like night and day.


I don't understand what you're saying here.... Your first sentence says exactly the same thing as i am saying. I don't understand your second sentence at all. Negated to what? I don't think anyone regards Vettel as an average driver?

2014 doesn't define him but to now where he stands in the pecking order among the big 5 we need to know if 2014 is reflective of the genuine performance of Vettel or Ricciardo or if it was an outlier. Vettel left after 2014 so the question mark is still there.

It would be very unfair on Ricciardo to just dismiss 2014 without any further evidence.


There's nothing unfair to Ricciardo no one is dismissing '14 for him he had a good season, but anyone who can't isolate the team mate and look at Vettel's actual performance in both years '14/'15 that's where the problem is, I mean in most races Vettel needed an extra tyre stop to complete the race.

Also what is this big 5? 3 guys with 10 championships and 2 that IF they have the car might win?

Till they do they don't come into the big anything.


Last edited by Rockie on Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo has never raced against anyone outside of the Red Bull program. Webber raced against a young Rosberg, Heidfeld, Coulthard, etc... so we have a very good idea of how he compared with the rest of the grid. I don’t rate Webber inferior to Massa in any way, for example. Every teammate of Webber has praised his speed.


How fast you rate Vettel depends almost entirely on if you're willing to write the 2014 season off as an outlier. It's a shame we will never truly get to find out as Ricciardo and Vettel look very unlikely to be team mates again.

If it's not an outlier then you have to consider Verstappen as being the fastest driver in F1 and by a margin, common sense points it more towards being an outlier.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo has never raced against anyone outside of the Red Bull program. Webber raced against a young Rosberg, Heidfeld, Coulthard, etc... so we have a very good idea of how he compared with the rest of the grid. I don’t rate Webber inferior to Massa in any way, for example. Every teammate of Webber has praised his speed.


How fast you rate Vettel depends almost entirely on if you're willing to write the 2014 season off as an outlier. It's a shame we will never truly get to find out as Ricciardo and Vettel look very unlikely to be team mates again.

If it's not an outlier then you have to consider Verstappen as being the fastest driver in F1 and by a margin, common sense points it more towards being an outlier.


That would depend on exactly how "slow" Vettel is wouldn't it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:35 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo has never raced against anyone outside of the Red Bull program. Webber raced against a young Rosberg, Heidfeld, Coulthard, etc... so we have a very good idea of how he compared with the rest of the grid. I don’t rate Webber inferior to Massa in any way, for example. Every teammate of Webber has praised his speed.


How fast you rate Vettel depends almost entirely on if you're willing to write the 2014 season off as an outlier. It's a shame we will never truly get to find out as Ricciardo and Vettel look very unlikely to be team mates again.

If it's not an outlier then you have to consider Verstappen as being the fastest driver in F1 and by a margin, common sense points it more towards being an outlier.


That would depend on exactly how "slow" Vettel is wouldn't it.

Well taking 2014 at face value it would make Vettel 0.34s slower than Verstappen. 8O

Vettel himself with cross referencing is no more than 0.08s slower than Alonso.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo has never raced against anyone outside of the Red Bull program. Webber raced against a young Rosberg, Heidfeld, Coulthard, etc... so we have a very good idea of how he compared with the rest of the grid. I don’t rate Webber inferior to Massa in any way, for example. Every teammate of Webber has praised his speed.


How fast you rate Vettel depends almost entirely on if you're willing to write the 2014 season off as an outlier. It's a shame we will never truly get to find out as Ricciardo and Vettel look very unlikely to be team mates again.

If it's not an outlier then you have to consider Verstappen as being the fastest driver in F1 and by a margin, common sense points it more towards being an outlier.


That would depend on exactly how "slow" Vettel is wouldn't it.

Well taking 2014 at face value it would make Vettel 0.34s slower than Verstappen. 8O

Vettel himself with cross referencing is no more than 0.08s slower than Alonso.

Until we see Verstappen against someone else we just can't rule out him being that fast ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:16 pm 
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The problem with Vettel is all we have is the three team mates. We have Bourdais too but we don’t have a great gauge of his level (Buemi also beat him by a similar level to Vettel did).

Vettel was clearly better than Webber and Raikkonen but both were 33-39 years old when teamed with him and arguably number 2 or at least less favoured from day 1. The Ricciardo year was just 1 year. Vettel could be very good (top 25 of all time) or great (top 10 of all time). Hopefully he pairs with a strong young driver in the next year or two. Leclerc for example.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Vettel is definitely top 25 of all time. There’s no way there are 25 better drivers than him historically.

Statistically he is top 5 of all time. However, there are some drivers like Senna and Clark who won less than Vettel but are generally rated higher.

Top 10 is fair.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:37 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
The problem with Vettel is all we have is the three team mates. We have Bourdais too but we don’t have a great gauge of his level (Buemi also beat him by a similar level to Vettel did).

Vettel was clearly better than Webber and Raikkonen but both were 33-39 years old when teamed with him and arguably number 2 or at least less favoured from day 1. The Ricciardo year was just 1 year. Vettel could be very good (top 25 of all time) or great (top 10 of all time). Hopefully he pairs with a strong young driver in the next year or two. Leclerc for example.


So to be clear Alonso beating Raikkonen, who Vettel beat by same or better margin the following year is not representative, now Raikkonen is old.

Vettel in the history books of F1 right now has got just two people in front of him with regards WDC, and by the end of the season might just be his childhood hero.

In any sport all you need do is rack up the glory and prize the sport has to offer every other thing will be speculation of the fan boys the record books never lie nor is it sentimental.

As per the Leclerc challenge that one has to be a joke, but as always it's not new since its Vettel the goal post will move saying its because he's established in the team.


Last edited by Rockie on Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:47 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is definitely top 25 of all time. There’s no way there are 25 better drivers than him historically.

Statistically he is top 5 of all time. However, there are some drivers like Senna and Clark who won less than Vettel but are generally rated higher.

Top 10 is fair.


Since '10 it's been between Vettel and Hamilton winning the title except Rosberg, also its just nostalgia that makes people think the guys from the past are better than guys today.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is definitely top 25 of all time. There’s no way there are 25 better drivers than him historically.

Statistically he is top 5 of all time. However, there are some drivers like Senna and Clark who won less than Vettel but are generally rated higher.

Top 10 is fair.


Since '10 it's been between Vettel and Hamilton winning the title except Rosberg, also its just nostalgia that makes people think the guys from the past are better than guys today.


Better or greater is a different question. I put Vettel as either the 10th or 11th greatest. Best is a much harder question because you have to ask best at what? Best at driving a 2018 Ferrari or a 1950 Alfa Romeo.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:04 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is definitely top 25 of all time. There’s no way there are 25 better drivers than him historically.

Statistically he is top 5 of all time. However, there are some drivers like Senna and Clark who won less than Vettel but are generally rated higher.

Top 10 is fair.


I don't put Vettel or Hamilton in the top 10 right now. I, as another stated, will wait until their careers are done to make this call. I suspect that the "big 3" will be on many a top 10 list, but I don't know that I will agree with them, time will tell.

Win totals mean nothing today in comparison to drivers of the past. Fangio, Ascari, et al, had seasons with only 7 or 8 total races sometimes. Seb, Lewis, Nando have had 3 times that number in one season!!! Points are going to be even more insignificant with race winner getting 25 points today, compared to 10 points per win for most of F1 history.

As for WDCs, I don't put as much into those as some in here do. WDCs are often much, much more about the car than they are the driver. We have seen dominate cars where possibly any of the top 6-8 drivers could have won in those cars. Example, Barrichello would likely have been a 2x WDC had Schumi not been in the other Ferrari, but very few give Rubens much credit as a top driver. the '02 & '04 Ferraris were that dominate. The same can be said of some Vettel's WDCs and certainly of Hamilton's. Webber a WDC? likely, Rosberg a 3x WDC? likely. Stirling Moss was possibly the best driver of his generation, but he has No, as in 0 WDCs.... So, one has to figure in WDCs with a grain of salt.
Another consideration is that today's drivers have less to do with the development of a car than did many/most of the drivers from previous eras, so the success of the car is likely less to do with their imput than perhaps even a short 20-30 years ago.

Quote:
When you are in the all time top 5 in wins, poles and WDCs, I think you have to be considered an all-time great

Obviously, sandman, I disagree to a point.
The thing is WDCs and especially wins don't necessarily mean that you are the greatest of your generation, only that you were obviously very good and had very good cars, and likely a great degree of luck as well. Poles are meaningless in the discussion of greatness as well, as again, a driver has to have the car to do that. I think that Alonso may well be the best recent example of what I am saying. Even today, many feel that Alonso is the best driver in F1 and has been for over 10 years... yet, is nowhere near the top in any of your categories.

.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:09 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is definitely top 25 of all time. There’s no way there are 25 better drivers than him historically.

Statistically he is top 5 of all time. However, there are some drivers like Senna and Clark who won less than Vettel but are generally rated higher.

Top 10 is fair.


Since '10 it's been between Vettel and Hamilton winning the title except Rosberg, also its just nostalgia that makes people think the guys from the past are better than guys today.


I disagree on a couple of points... You have chosen to leave out Alonso, who I would rate above both Vettel and Hamilton.

Secondly, you dismiss ratings of drivers from the past as "nostalgia",... I could suggest that the strong forum ratings of today's drivers are made by those who never had the chance to experience the "guys from the past". As always, it is difficult to compare eras, but your basic dismissal of drivers of the past is, in my opinion, unfair and somewhat uninformed.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:16 pm 
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It's just too difficult to accurately compare drivers across eras to make any real comparison. Even if you could somehow dump a prime Fangio in one of todays cars, he'd get bullied off the track in a heartbeat thanks to the prevelance of the dark arts post Senna/Schumacher. Too many variables.

To write the old era drivers off as being praised purely through nostalgia is folly though, watch Clark drive anything on video and deny me his latent natural talent.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:43 pm 
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From what I've seen among fellow racing fans, most people basically assess the question of who is the all-time greatest by looking at who their all-time favorites are and then making a case for them. For the drivers they like, they play up their accomplishments. For drivers they don't like, they try to poke holes in their accomplishments.

It's basically a pointless exercise to try to come to any kind of a consensus among a large group of people, however, there has to be a respect for the handful of drivers who were prominent during their time. Drivers who win a lot of races and multiple championships should especially be respected. If you have no respect for the very things that these guys are competing for then what's the point? Yes it is possible to be a great driver and not be in position to win and yes, it is possible to win a lot more than your level of talent alone justifies by being in the right places at the right times but anyone with Vettel's list of achievements should, at the very least, be respected and mentioned among the greats.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:17 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is definitely top 25 of all time. There’s no way there are 25 better drivers than him historically.

Statistically he is top 5 of all time. However, there are some drivers like Senna and Clark who won less than Vettel but are generally rated higher.

Top 10 is fair.


Since '10 it's been between Vettel and Hamilton winning the title except Rosberg, also its just nostalgia that makes people think the guys from the past are better than guys today.


I disagree on a couple of points... You have chosen to leave out Alonso, who I would rate above both Vettel and Hamilton.

Secondly, you dismiss ratings of drivers from the past as "nostalgia",... I could suggest that the strong forum ratings of today's drivers are made by those who never had the chance to experience the "guys from the past". As always, it is difficult to compare eras, but your basic dismissal of drivers of the past is, in my opinion, unfair and somewhat uninformed.


For me what determines is the world title anything else is subjective, in sport you don't luck into being a serial winner, it's the reason I left Alonso out. If this era is written about in future Alonso will just be a footnote in it, its the reality.

The nostalgia part comes in for driver like Senna, because of tragedy its elevated him a lot same as John Lennon with regards to The Beatles.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:21 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
It's just too difficult to accurately compare drivers across eras to make any real comparison. Even if you could somehow dump a prime Fangio in one of todays cars, he'd get bullied off the track in a heartbeat thanks to the prevelance of the dark arts post Senna/Schumacher. Too many variables.

To write the old era drivers off as being praised purely through nostalgia is folly though, watch Clark drive anything on video and deny me his latent natural talent.


In a couple of decades some are going to say the same about Vettel and Hamilton about the kind of qualifying laps they can turn, just remember the odd mistake would have been forgotten then.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:43 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
It's just too difficult to accurately compare drivers across eras to make any real comparison. Even if you could somehow dump a prime Fangio in one of todays cars, he'd get bullied off the track in a heartbeat thanks to the prevelance of the dark arts post Senna/Schumacher. Too many variables.

To write the old era drivers off as being praised purely through nostalgia is folly though, watch Clark drive anything on video and deny me his latent natural talent.


In a couple of decades some are going to say the same about Vettel and Hamilton about the kind of qualifying laps they can turn, just remember the odd mistake would have been forgotten then.

That might not happen for these modern guys actually because their every thought is captured on social media and their every move is recorded on some camera. There is no more mystery to F1 drivers. Part of what makes Jim Clark such a legend is that there isn't a whole lot of video footage of him. The races were often not broadcast back in those days and even when they were, it wasn't the perfectly choreographed presentation that we have now. Same goes for Fangio and all of the other legends from the old days.

The truth is that Fangio often had cars with 4 seconds in pace over their nearest rival and Jim Clark had similar margins at times in his career. We complain today about the big three teams dominating but the gap between the fastest and slowest car today is smaller than the gap between the fastest and second fastest in the 50s. Even as late as the early 90s, the Williams cars had as much as 2+ seconds on the field. Modern F1 is so much more competitive than it ever used to be but the fans are basically just a bunch of whiners and complainers who will never be satisfied.

Greatness is a difficult thing to measure but I don't think that a meaningful comparison can be made between the likes of Jim Clark and modern drivers like Hamilton or Alonso. The sport has changed way too much as has the world around it. The only meaningful comparisons are between drivers who are peers and who compete against each other. These "all-time great" debates are always fun for fans though.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
How fast you rate Vettel depends almost entirely on if you're willing to write the 2014 season off as an outlier. It's a shame we will never truly get to find out as Ricciardo and Vettel look very unlikely to be team mates again.

If it's not an outlier then you have to consider Verstappen as being the fastest driver in F1 and by a margin, common sense points it more towards being an outlier.


That would depend on exactly how "slow" Vettel is wouldn't it.

Well taking 2014 at face value it would make Vettel 0.34s slower than Verstappen. 8O

Vettel himself with cross referencing is no more than 0.08s slower than Alonso.

Until we see Verstappen against someone else we just can't rule out him being that fast ;)

No we can't but Vettel's level generally speaking is so high I find it hard to believe.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:51 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
The problem with Vettel is all we have is the three team mates. We have Bourdais too but we don’t have a great gauge of his level (Buemi also beat him by a similar level to Vettel did).

Vettel was clearly better than Webber and Raikkonen but both were 33-39 years old when teamed with him and arguably number 2 or at least less favoured from day 1. The Ricciardo year was just 1 year. Vettel could be very good (top 25 of all time) or great (top 10 of all time). Hopefully he pairs with a strong young driver in the next year or two. Leclerc for example.

The problem with that is that Leclerc himself is no kind of gauge having had only had Ericsson as a teammate, we need the Red Bull drivers to come out and play.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:52 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The problem with Vettel is all we have is the three team mates. We have Bourdais too but we don’t have a great gauge of his level (Buemi also beat him by a similar level to Vettel did).

Vettel was clearly better than Webber and Raikkonen but both were 33-39 years old when teamed with him and arguably number 2 or at least less favoured from day 1. The Ricciardo year was just 1 year. Vettel could be very good (top 25 of all time) or great (top 10 of all time). Hopefully he pairs with a strong young driver in the next year or two. Leclerc for example.


So to be clear Alonso beating Raikkonen, who Vettel beat by same or better margin the following year is not representative, now Raikkonen is old.

Vettel in the history books of F1 right now has got just two people in front of him with regards WDC, and by the end of the season might just be his childhood hero.

In any sport all you need do is rack up the glory and prize the sport has to offer every other thing will be speculation of the fan boys the record books never lie nor is it sentimental.

As per the Leclerc challenge that one has to be a joke, but as always it's not new since its Vettel the goal post will move saying its because he's established in the team.

Alonso beat Kimi more convincingly than Vettel did.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:58 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Blake wrote:
Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is definitely top 25 of all time. There’s no way there are 25 better drivers than him historically.

Statistically he is top 5 of all time. However, there are some drivers like Senna and Clark who won less than Vettel but are generally rated higher.

Top 10 is fair.


Since '10 it's been between Vettel and Hamilton winning the title except Rosberg, also its just nostalgia that makes people think the guys from the past are better than guys today.


I disagree on a couple of points... You have chosen to leave out Alonso, who I would rate above both Vettel and Hamilton.

Secondly, you dismiss ratings of drivers from the past as "nostalgia",... I could suggest that the strong forum ratings of today's drivers are made by those who never had the chance to experience the "guys from the past". As always, it is difficult to compare eras, but your basic dismissal of drivers of the past is, in my opinion, unfair and somewhat uninformed.


For me what determines is the world title anything else is subjective, in sport you don't luck into being a serial winner, it's the reason I left Alonso out. If this era is written about in future Alonso will just be a footnote in it, its the reality.

The nostalgia part comes in for driver like Senna, because of tragedy its elevated him a lot same as John Lennon with regards to The Beatles.

I think most people that say this were not even around when Senna raced.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:06 am 
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Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel is definitely top 25 of all time. There’s no way there are 25 better drivers than him historically.

Statistically he is top 5 of all time. However, there are some drivers like Senna and Clark who won less than Vettel but are generally rated higher.

Top 10 is fair.


Since '10 it's been between Vettel and Hamilton winning the title except Rosberg, also its just nostalgia that makes people think the guys from the past are better than guys today.


Back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, F1 careers were a lot shorter because of the danger of driving in the series back then. Juan Manuel Fangio won 46% of the races he entered. Jim Clark won 34% of his races. Lewis Hamilton won 30.45% of his races. Michael Schumacher won 29.55%. Jackie Stewart won 27.00%. Sebastian Vettel won 24.29% of his races.

When you look at the drivers with the most starts there is only one driver in the top ten from the 50s, 60s, 70s, or 80s and that is Ricardo Patrese. No driver from the 50s or 60s ever had the chance to rack up as many starts as is becoming common these days.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:30 am 
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Johnson wrote:
The problem with Vettel is all we have is the three team mates. We have Bourdais too but we don’t have a great gauge of his level (Buemi also beat him by a similar level to Vettel did).

Vettel was clearly better than Webber and Raikkonen but both were 33-39 years old when teamed with him and arguably number 2 or at least less favoured from day 1. The Ricciardo year was just 1 year. Vettel could be very good (top 25 of all time) or great (top 10 of all time). Hopefully he pairs with a strong young driver in the next year or two. Leclerc for example.

Webber was actually 32 when Vettel joined Red Bull. Generally speaking, 32 is not considered old in Formula 1. Webber was still very much in his prime in 2009, which makes Vettel beating Webber by an incredible score of 15-2 at the age of only 21 so impressive.

Webber was a qualifying ace who dragged midfield cars to the sharp end of the grid, like he did at Brazil 2003, Malaysia 2004, Monaco 2006 and Silverstone 2008. He was very highly regarded before Vettel became his teammate.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:16 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The problem with Vettel is all we have is the three team mates. We have Bourdais too but we don’t have a great gauge of his level (Buemi also beat him by a similar level to Vettel did).

Vettel was clearly better than Webber and Raikkonen but both were 33-39 years old when teamed with him and arguably number 2 or at least less favoured from day 1. The Ricciardo year was just 1 year. Vettel could be very good (top 25 of all time) or great (top 10 of all time). Hopefully he pairs with a strong young driver in the next year or two. Leclerc for example.

Webber was actually 32 when Vettel joined Red Bull. Generally speaking, 32 is not considered old in Formula 1. Webber was still very much in his prime in 2009, which makes Vettel beating Webber by an incredible score of 15-2 at the age of only 21 so impressive.

Webber was a qualifying ace who dragged midfield cars to the sharp end of the grid, like he did at Brazil 2003, Malaysia 2004, Monaco 2006 and Silverstone 2008. He was very highly regarded before Vettel became his teammate.

Not really. He was respected sure, but he was grouped with guys like Heidfeld, Trulli and Fisichella.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:40 am 
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Trulli beat Alonso 16-15 in qualifying, so he couldn’t have been too bad. ;)

Anyway, regarding Vettel vs Webber, these were the predictions back in 2008:
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/1026 ... -v-webber/

Everyone expected Webber to win qualifying, such was his reputation at the time.

This post nailed it though:
Quote:
Webber and Trulli are some of the best qualifiers, if Vettel can beat Webber in qualifying he may become a great driver, especially considering his age, he's 10 years yunger.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:46 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
How fast you rate Vettel depends almost entirely on if you're willing to write the 2014 season off as an outlier. It's a shame we will never truly get to find out as Ricciardo and Vettel look very unlikely to be team mates again.

If it's not an outlier then you have to consider Verstappen as being the fastest driver in F1 and by a margin, common sense points it more towards being an outlier.


That would depend on exactly how "slow" Vettel is wouldn't it.

Well taking 2014 at face value it would make Vettel 0.34s slower than Verstappen. 8O

Vettel himself with cross referencing is no more than 0.08s slower than Alonso.

Until we see Verstappen against someone else we just can't rule out him being that fast ;)

There is a good chance that Verstappen is already the fastest driver in Formula 1. He is currently beating Ricciardo 9-3 in qualifying. For reference, Hamilton is only beating Bottas 7-5. Most of us would agree that Ricciardo is at least as good as Bottas.

It’s difficult to compare but it would not surprise me in the least.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:06 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Anyway, regarding Vettel vs Webber, these were the predictions back in 2008:
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/1026 ... -v-webber/

Some entertaining reading in there. The Terrible Prediction Award of 2008, however, goes to this one:

Quote:
Vettel's been struggling to contain his rookie teammate this year: he'll be crushed like a bug by Webber next year.

Nope!

Can't wait until we get to do a Vettel vs. Leclerc prediction thread. I wonder if it'll be as wrong as the Ricciardo vs. Vettel thread was?

EDIT: Here's the Vettel v Ricciardo thread, for those curious: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9679

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:41 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The problem with Vettel is all we have is the three team mates. We have Bourdais too but we don’t have a great gauge of his level (Buemi also beat him by a similar level to Vettel did).

Vettel was clearly better than Webber and Raikkonen but both were 33-39 years old when teamed with him and arguably number 2 or at least less favoured from day 1. The Ricciardo year was just 1 year. Vettel could be very good (top 25 of all time) or great (top 10 of all time). Hopefully he pairs with a strong young driver in the next year or two. Leclerc for example.


So to be clear Alonso beating Raikkonen, who Vettel beat by same or better margin the following year is not representative, now Raikkonen is old.

Vettel in the history books of F1 right now has got just two people in front of him with regards WDC, and by the end of the season might just be his childhood hero.

In any sport all you need do is rack up the glory and prize the sport has to offer every other thing will be speculation of the fan boys the record books never lie nor is it sentimental.

As per the Leclerc challenge that one has to be a joke, but as always it's not new since its Vettel the goal post will move saying its because he's established in the team.

Alonso beat Kimi more convincingly than Vettel did.


Can you back this up with stats?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:46 am 
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Quoting an internet forum as an appeal to authority is an extremely dubious practice...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Blake wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Since '10 it's been between Vettel and Hamilton winning the title except Rosberg, also its just nostalgia that makes people think the guys from the past are better than guys today.


I disagree on a couple of points... You have chosen to leave out Alonso, who I would rate above both Vettel and Hamilton.

Secondly, you dismiss ratings of drivers from the past as "nostalgia",... I could suggest that the strong forum ratings of today's drivers are made by those who never had the chance to experience the "guys from the past". As always, it is difficult to compare eras, but your basic dismissal of drivers of the past is, in my opinion, unfair and somewhat uninformed.


For me what determines is the world title anything else is subjective, in sport you don't luck into being a serial winner, it's the reason I left Alonso out. If this era is written about in future Alonso will just be a footnote in it, its the reality.

The nostalgia part comes in for driver like Senna, because of tragedy its elevated him a lot same as John Lennon with regards to The Beatles.

I think most people that say this were not even around when Senna raced.


Tragedy enhances reputation, had Senna lived and MSC beat him he wont have the reputation he has.

In the height of one's career if tragedy strikes it elevates the individual to demigod like level.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Blake wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Since '10 it's been between Vettel and Hamilton winning the title except Rosberg, also its just nostalgia that makes people think the guys from the past are better than guys today.


I disagree on a couple of points... You have chosen to leave out Alonso, who I would rate above both Vettel and Hamilton.

Secondly, you dismiss ratings of drivers from the past as "nostalgia",... I could suggest that the strong forum ratings of today's drivers are made by those who never had the chance to experience the "guys from the past". As always, it is difficult to compare eras, but your basic dismissal of drivers of the past is, in my opinion, unfair and somewhat uninformed.


For me what determines is the world title anything else is subjective, in sport you don't luck into being a serial winner, it's the reason I left Alonso out. If this era is written about in future Alonso will just be a footnote in it, its the reality.

The nostalgia part comes in for driver like Senna, because of tragedy its elevated him a lot same as John Lennon with regards to The Beatles.

I think most people that say this were not even around when Senna raced.


Tragedy enhances reputation, had Senna lived and MSC beat him he wont have the reputation he has.

In the height of one's career if tragedy strikes it elevates the individual to demigod like level.


Judging how good a driver is based largely on championships won is a folly. If Vettel's engine had blown on the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would have the same amount of championships as Alonso but it wouldn't make either of them better or wors. Same as Massa wouldn't be any better a driver if the rain had held off and Hamilton hadn't been able to pass Glock.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Blake wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Since '10 it's been between Vettel and Hamilton winning the title except Rosberg, also its just nostalgia that makes people think the guys from the past are better than guys today.


I disagree on a couple of points... You have chosen to leave out Alonso, who I would rate above both Vettel and Hamilton.

Secondly, you dismiss ratings of drivers from the past as "nostalgia",... I could suggest that the strong forum ratings of today's drivers are made by those who never had the chance to experience the "guys from the past". As always, it is difficult to compare eras, but your basic dismissal of drivers of the past is, in my opinion, unfair and somewhat uninformed.


For me what determines is the world title anything else is subjective, in sport you don't luck into being a serial winner, it's the reason I left Alonso out. If this era is written about in future Alonso will just be a footnote in it, its the reality.

The nostalgia part comes in for driver like Senna, because of tragedy its elevated him a lot same as John Lennon with regards to The Beatles.

I think most people that say this were not even around when Senna raced.


Tragedy enhances reputation, had Senna lived and MSC beat him he wont have the reputation he has.

In the height of one's career if tragedy strikes it elevates the individual to demigod like level.

Did you watch Ayrton Senna race? I doubt that you did. When he came into F1 he had multiple podiums in an absolute backmarker of a car as a rookie. It was literally the equivalent of someone in this year's Williams securing multiple podiums\ finishes. When he teamed with Prost, Prost was widely considered the best all around driver in F1. Senna out-qualified him 13-3 that year including the legendary Monaco session where he beat Prost by 1.5 seconds.

The reason I tell you that is to point out that, unlike some people want to suggest, Senna's reputation is not based on the fact that he died. It's based on the fact that he was an anomaly while he was racing. He had a bigger gap in pace to the field than any driver since. Schumacher, Hakkinen, Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, none of them have had the kind of margin that Senna showed in his prime. His death does perhaps add to the mystique but it is not what made him a legend.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:42 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The problem with Vettel is all we have is the three team mates. We have Bourdais too but we don’t have a great gauge of his level (Buemi also beat him by a similar level to Vettel did).

Vettel was clearly better than Webber and Raikkonen but both were 33-39 years old when teamed with him and arguably number 2 or at least less favoured from day 1. The Ricciardo year was just 1 year. Vettel could be very good (top 25 of all time) or great (top 10 of all time). Hopefully he pairs with a strong young driver in the next year or two. Leclerc for example.

Webber was actually 32 when Vettel joined Red Bull. Generally speaking, 32 is not considered old in Formula 1. Webber was still very much in his prime in 2009, which makes Vettel beating Webber by an incredible score of 15-2 at the age of only 21 so impressive.

Webber was a qualifying ace who dragged midfield cars to the sharp end of the grid, like he did at Brazil 2003, Malaysia 2004, Monaco 2006 and Silverstone 2008. He was very highly regarded before Vettel became his teammate.

Indeed Webber was well rated as a qualifier and what Vettel did against him was impressive, conversely though I had Vettel beating him on the Sunday, Webber was seen a little bit like a Trulli and I believe this was emphasised later in Webber's career on the Pirellis that he had poor tyre management.

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