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Vettel 5 Second Penalty
Correct as it was 14%  14%  [ 8 ]
Should not have received any penalty - racing incident 41%  41%  [ 24 ]
Should have received a more severe penalty 20%  20%  [ 12 ]
5 Seconds was appropriate but should be made to serve it with x number of laps 8%  8%  [ 5 ]
Drive-Through would be better 17%  17%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 59
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:20 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't quite see how that was quite the same. Bottas didn't quite lock up under breaking and then didn't slow down enough. He braked before Kimi and went onto the curb. Don't think he had much other choice other than to possible outbrake kimi. But when he did what he did, the kerb made him loose control. From when he lost it, he couldn't really help what happened. if he went wider without going on the kerb, it is unlikely he wouldn't have hit Kimi anyway.

Bottas could have backed out in Baku. Raikkonen mugged him around the outside, Bottas tried to keep his nose in it, and they crashed as a result.

The accident was entirely avoidable from Bottas’ point of view. He got no penalty.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:55 pm 
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I don’t think he should have gotten a penalty.
1st corner incident.
I also think Bottas, could have given him more room.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:41 am 
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hk77 wrote:
I don’t think he should have gotten a penalty.
1st corner incident.
I also think Bottas, could have given him more room.

I don't see how that would be possible. Bottas doesn't squeeze Vettel off the track on the run down to T1, he is completely ahead at the 100 metre board and pulls another car length ahead by the 50 metre board.

Its not reasonable to expect him to start leaving space when hes a car length or even more ahead. So long as Vettel doesn't lock up they both make that corner easily, unfortunately Vettel locked up.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:06 am 
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hk77 wrote:
I don’t think he should have gotten a penalty.
1st corner incident.
I also think Bottas, could have given him more room.


How? He hits the back of Bottas.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:41 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
hk77 wrote:
I don’t think he should have gotten a penalty.
1st corner incident.
I also think Bottas, could have given him more room.


How? He hits the back of Bottas.


Don't think Bottas did anything wrong. Neither Mercedes did. I do think Hamilton purposefully held back just a bit in order to box Vettel in and make him brake a bit earlier than he would have.

And to be clear: that's fully in his right.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:46 am 
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mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
hk77 wrote:
I don’t think he should have gotten a penalty.
1st corner incident.
I also think Bottas, could have given him more room.


How? He hits the back of Bottas.


Don't think Bottas did anything wrong. Neither Mercedes did. I do think Hamilton purposefully held back just a bit in order to box Vettel in and make him brake a bit earlier than he would have.

And to be clear: that's fully in his right.


Quite possibly. It was prophesied that Vettel would get the better start due to his softer tyres. I wonder if the Merc drivers had a bit of a plan for the start in how to deal with that?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:02 am 
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Clumsy driving and took out one of the top-three drivers. I'm surprised at the result of the poll, I agreed with Hamilton's opinion that it was a slap on the wrist really.

I voted for a drive-through. Five seconds, especially given how much faster the top six cars are to everybody else, was an inadequate. However I expect the punishment will be more severe if he does it again.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:28 am 
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Toby. wrote:
I voted for a drive-through. Five seconds, especially given how much faster the top six cars are to everybody else, was an inadequate.


So now a driver for a top team should be punished harder than a driver for a mid-grid team because the car is faster anyway?

Slippery slope if we're going to have to take into account both the speed of the car and the result of the victim into account. Or instead, we just look at it and see that the punishment is pretty in line with what we've seen before and say it's OK.

There used to be a time where this was seen as a racing incident and there would be no punishment at all. It's racing, and it's a driver who locked his brakes a bit.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:44 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It was a racing incident: I voted 'correct call'.

After watching plenty of replays I'm convinced Vettel had nowhere to go. He wasn't doing anything crazy, just trying to get through the first corner - he braked at a reasonable distance, but locked up and went into Bottas. It's his mistake, but I don't feel he did anything penalty-worthy in the process. That Bottas came off worse from it is just poor luck on his part.


He locked up and missed the Apex meaning he braked to late. That being said it's hardly a massive error. Vettel does drop a lot of points from turn one incidents. I do thin it's something that would be worth him looking at. They're never major errors but putting them together since the start of 2016 there have been a fair few minor mistakes. If he could put it right he could perhaps save himself close to 50 points a season.


How did he brake late?

Did u see Bottas release the brake pedal to get into the corner quicker than Vettel, the loss of downforce caused the lock up.

But I guess this thread is really to bash Vettel and nothing else cue the penalty should not allow Vettel finish in front of Bottas, when has that ever been considered in F1?

With a drive thru penalty he would still have finished ahead of Bottas, its just Hamilton and his fans wanting more points.

Well if you can get the car slowed down enough in time you have braked too late for the conditions. It's been gone over so many times that cars lose grip due to lost downforce behind other cars, you'd think a four time champion could deal with this?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:51 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't quite see how that was quite the same. Bottas didn't quite lock up under breaking and then didn't slow down enough. He braked before Kimi and went onto the curb. Don't think he had much other choice other than to possible outbrake kimi. But when he did what he did, the kerb made him loose control. From when he lost it, he couldn't really help what happened. if he went wider without going on the kerb, it is unlikely he wouldn't have hit Kimi anyway.

Bottas could have backed out in Baku. Raikkonen mugged him around the outside, Bottas tried to keep his nose in it, and they crashed as a result.

The accident was entirely avoidable from Bottas’ point of view. He got no penalty.

Well, Bottas already had lifted off. This gave Kimi an opportunity to attempt this. Although the stewards ruled it as a "speculative" pass, therefore, rather a risky one given he could see Bottas hasn't backed off fully before it happened. Bottas didn't need to do this. And Kimi being on the outside as close to the kerb as he was should have realised that the kerb could bounce Bottas into Kimi. They will have more data than us and look at things in more detail so I think the decision will have been fair if we saw everything they based it off. Guess we will just have to have different opinions which isn't a problem.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:40 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It was a racing incident: I voted 'correct call'.

After watching plenty of replays I'm convinced Vettel had nowhere to go. He wasn't doing anything crazy, just trying to get through the first corner - he braked at a reasonable distance, but locked up and went into Bottas. It's his mistake, but I don't feel he did anything penalty-worthy in the process. That Bottas came off worse from it is just poor luck on his part.


He locked up and missed the Apex meaning he braked to late. That being said it's hardly a massive error. Vettel does drop a lot of points from turn one incidents. I do thin it's something that would be worth him looking at. They're never major errors but putting them together since the start of 2016 there have been a fair few minor mistakes. If he could put it right he could perhaps save himself close to 50 points a season.


How did he brake late?

Did u see Bottas release the brake pedal to get into the corner quicker than Vettel, the loss of downforce caused the lock up.

But I guess this thread is really to bash Vettel and nothing else cue the penalty should not allow Vettel finish in front of Bottas, when has that ever been considered in F1?

With a drive thru penalty he would still have finished ahead of Bottas, its just Hamilton and his fans wanting more points.

Well if you can get the car slowed down enough in time you have braked too late for the conditions. It's been gone over so many times that cars lose grip due to lost downforce behind other cars, you'd think a four time champion could deal with this?


Maybe a rewatch of the start will help you.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:43 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It was a racing incident: I voted 'correct call'.

After watching plenty of replays I'm convinced Vettel had nowhere to go. He wasn't doing anything crazy, just trying to get through the first corner - he braked at a reasonable distance, but locked up and went into Bottas. It's his mistake, but I don't feel he did anything penalty-worthy in the process. That Bottas came off worse from it is just poor luck on his part.


He locked up and missed the Apex meaning he braked to late. That being said it's hardly a massive error. Vettel does drop a lot of points from turn one incidents. I do thin it's something that would be worth him looking at. They're never major errors but putting them together since the start of 2016 there have been a fair few minor mistakes. If he could put it right he could perhaps save himself close to 50 points a season.

In fairness I think it was mentioned that all 3 braked late and missed the apex. I need to watch it again


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:46 am 
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Rockie wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It was a racing incident: I voted 'correct call'.

After watching plenty of replays I'm convinced Vettel had nowhere to go. He wasn't doing anything crazy, just trying to get through the first corner - he braked at a reasonable distance, but locked up and went into Bottas. It's his mistake, but I don't feel he did anything penalty-worthy in the process. That Bottas came off worse from it is just poor luck on his part.


He locked up and missed the Apex meaning he braked to late. That being said it's hardly a massive error. Vettel does drop a lot of points from turn one incidents. I do thin it's something that would be worth him looking at. They're never major errors but putting them together since the start of 2016 there have been a fair few minor mistakes. If he could put it right he could perhaps save himself close to 50 points a season.


How did he brake late?

Did u see Bottas release the brake pedal to get into the corner quicker than Vettel, the loss of downforce caused the lock up.

But I guess this thread is really to bash Vettel and nothing else cue the penalty should not allow Vettel finish in front of Bottas, when has that ever been considered in F1?

With a drive thru penalty he would still have finished ahead of Bottas, its just Hamilton and his fans wanting more points.

Well if you can get the car slowed down enough in time you have braked too late for the conditions. It's been gone over so many times that cars lose grip due to lost downforce behind other cars, you'd think a four time champion could deal with this?


Maybe a rewatch of the start will help you.

Maybe it would help you, he got penalised, admitted fault and you think he's innocent?
Unless you post something constructive with info that could make me reconsider my view I'll leave it there!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:47 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It was a racing incident: I voted 'correct call'.

After watching plenty of replays I'm convinced Vettel had nowhere to go. He wasn't doing anything crazy, just trying to get through the first corner - he braked at a reasonable distance, but locked up and went into Bottas. It's his mistake, but I don't feel he did anything penalty-worthy in the process. That Bottas came off worse from it is just poor luck on his part.


He locked up and missed the Apex meaning he braked to late. That being said it's hardly a massive error. Vettel does drop a lot of points from turn one incidents. I do thin it's something that would be worth him looking at. They're never major errors but putting them together since the start of 2016 there have been a fair few minor mistakes. If he could put it right he could perhaps save himself close to 50 points a season.


How did he brake late?

Did u see Bottas release the brake pedal to get into the corner quicker than Vettel, the loss of downforce caused the lock up.

But I guess this thread is really to bash Vettel and nothing else cue the penalty should not allow Vettel finish in front of Bottas, when has that ever been considered in F1?

With a drive thru penalty he would still have finished ahead of Bottas, its just Hamilton and his fans wanting more points.


I wouldn't consider mikeyg123 a Vettel basher my friend.

In any case, he is not say anything wrong, he doesn't think it was a big error and he doesn't even say that it is Vettel that causes the turn one incidents, only that he should maybe try to keep his nose clean. That's how I read it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:56 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Maybe a rewatch of the start will help you.

Maybe it would help you, he got penalised, admitted fault and you think he's innocent?
Unless you post something constructive with info that could make me reconsider my view I'll leave it there!


You claimed he was on the brakes late which he wasn't, what was he supposed to do say he didnt lock up?

He had a better start as with the aero you lose downforce and that led to the lock up nothing unusual.


Last edited by Rockie on Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:59 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It was a racing incident: I voted 'correct call'.

After watching plenty of replays I'm convinced Vettel had nowhere to go. He wasn't doing anything crazy, just trying to get through the first corner - he braked at a reasonable distance, but locked up and went into Bottas. It's his mistake, but I don't feel he did anything penalty-worthy in the process. That Bottas came off worse from it is just poor luck on his part.


He locked up and missed the Apex meaning he braked to late. That being said it's hardly a massive error. Vettel does drop a lot of points from turn one incidents. I do thin it's something that would be worth him looking at. They're never major errors but putting them together since the start of 2016 there have been a fair few minor mistakes. If he could put it right he could perhaps save himself close to 50 points a season.


How did he brake late?

Did u see Bottas release the brake pedal to get into the corner quicker than Vettel, the loss of downforce caused the lock up.

But I guess this thread is really to bash Vettel and nothing else cue the penalty should not allow Vettel finish in front of Bottas, when has that ever been considered in F1?

With a drive thru penalty he would still have finished ahead of Bottas, its just Hamilton and his fans wanting more points.


I wouldn't consider mikeyg123 a Vettel basher my friend.

In any case, he is not say anything wrong, he doesn't think it was a big error and he doesn't even say that it is Vettel that causes the turn one incidents, only that he should maybe try to keep his nose clean. That's how I read it.


Just a general view of some replies not of mikeyg123.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:12 am 
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Rockie wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Maybe a rewatch of the start will help you.

Maybe it would help you, he got penalised, admitted fault and you think he's innocent?
Unless you post something constructive with info that could make me reconsider my view I'll leave it there!


You claimed he was on the brakes late which he wasn't, what was he supposed to do say he didnt lock up?

He had a better start as with the aero you lose downforce and that led to the lock up nothing unusual.


You know a lock up is caused by having to put too much pressure on the brakes? If you lock up and miss the apex you braked to late for the corner. Brakes don't just lock at random.

Yes, he was compromised by the dirty air from Bottas but going into turn 1 just about everyone apart from Hamilton and Bottas could make a similar claim and nobody else made a misjudgement.

Let's be honest. It's a small error and not one which needs dwelling on, but to say no error was made is false IMO.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:13 am 
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mds wrote:
Toby. wrote:
I voted for a drive-through. Five seconds, especially given how much faster the top six cars are to everybody else, was an inadequate.


So now a driver for a top team should be punished harder than a driver for a mid-grid team because the car is faster anyway?

Slippery slope if we're going to have to take into account both the speed of the car and the result of the victim into account. Or instead, we just look at it and see that the punishment is pretty in line with what we've seen before and say it's OK.

There used to be a time where this was seen as a racing incident and there would be no punishment at all. It's racing, and it's a driver who locked his brakes a bit.


Ignoring circumstance will allow situations like this occur, though. The goal should be a just outcome, because that's what penalties are for. A drive-through or a stop-go would have been a just punishment for a bad bit of driving that ruined another driver's race.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:18 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Maybe a rewatch of the start will help you.

Maybe it would help you, he got penalised, admitted fault and you think he's innocent?
Unless you post something constructive with info that could make me reconsider my view I'll leave it there!


You claimed he was on the brakes late which he wasn't, what was he supposed to do say he didnt lock up?

He had a better start as with the aero you lose downforce and that led to the lock up nothing unusual.


You know a lock up is caused by having to put too much pressure on the brakes? If you lock up and miss the apex you braked to late for the corner. Brakes don't just lock at random.

Yes, he was compromised by the dirty air from Bottas but going into turn 1 just about everyone apart from Hamilton and Bottas could make a similar claim and nobody else made a misjudgement.

Let's be honest. It's a small error and not one which needs dwelling on, but to say no error was made is false IMO.

Exactly, not the crime of the century but an error in braking too late to make the corner. He must have known Bottas was going to turn in and affect his downforce...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:31 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Ignoring circumstance will allow situations like this occur, though.


That's nonsense. The risk of hitting someone from behind is at least as big for the one behind as the one in front, possibly even bigger. To say that a penalty that is being seen as lenient will invite drivers to plow into the back of others is a bit ridiculous, no?

Quote:
The goal should be a just outcome, because that's what penalties are for.


I don't agree. Penalties exist to punish an action. Not to construct a desired outcome.

As I said, what are you going to deem "just" when a driver causes another to retire? That said driver has to retire as well?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:38 am 
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Just to illustrate: Verstappen destroyed Vettel's race in China all the same. Was there a penalty in place to ensure Verstappen would end up with less points than Vettel? Nope.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:52 am 
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mds wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Ignoring circumstance will allow situations like this occur, though.


That's nonsense. The risk of hitting someone from behind is at least as big for the one behind as the one in front, possibly even bigger. To say that a penalty that is being seen as lenient will invite drivers to plow into the back of others is a bit ridiculous, no?


Entirely agree. The circumstance I was talking about was insufficient steward punishments (in my opinion).

mds wrote:
Quote:
The goal should be a just outcome, because that's what penalties are for.


I don't agree. Penalties exist to punish an action. Not to construct a desired outcome.

As I said, what are you going to deem "just" when a driver causes another to retire? That said driver has to retire as well?


Not so much to construct a desired outcome, but to deliver a punishment equivalent to the act. I wouldn't go so far as to say disqualification (except in extreme circumstances I'm sure we'd agree on), but a stop-go would be a better punishment for the crime.

I think a lot of contention around these issues could be erased if F1 had the same stewards at every race. They're still revolving, aren't they? Or has that changed?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:52 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It was a racing incident: I voted 'correct call'.

After watching plenty of replays I'm convinced Vettel had nowhere to go. He wasn't doing anything crazy, just trying to get through the first corner - he braked at a reasonable distance, but locked up and went into Bottas. It's his mistake, but I don't feel he did anything penalty-worthy in the process. That Bottas came off worse from it is just poor luck on his part.


He locked up and missed the Apex meaning he braked to late. That being said it's hardly a massive error. Vettel does drop a lot of points from turn one incidents. I do thin it's something that would be worth him looking at. They're never major errors but putting them together since the start of 2016 there have been a fair few minor mistakes. If he could put it right he could perhaps save himself close to 50 points a season.


How did he brake late?

Did u see Bottas release the brake pedal to get into the corner quicker than Vettel, the loss of downforce caused the lock up.

But I guess this thread is really to bash Vettel and nothing else cue the penalty should not allow Vettel finish in front of Bottas, when has that ever been considered in F1?

With a drive thru penalty he would still have finished ahead of Bottas, its just Hamilton and his fans wanting more points.


I wouldn't consider mikeyg123 a Vettel basher my friend.

In any case, he is not say anything wrong, he doesn't think it was a big error and he doesn't even say that it is Vettel that causes the turn one incidents, only that he should maybe try to keep his nose clean. That's how I read it.


Just a general view of some replies not of mikeyg123.


Fair enough


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:00 am 
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Toby. wrote:
mds wrote:
Toby. wrote:
I voted for a drive-through. Five seconds, especially given how much faster the top six cars are to everybody else, was an inadequate.


So now a driver for a top team should be punished harder than a driver for a mid-grid team because the car is faster anyway?

Slippery slope if we're going to have to take into account both the speed of the car and the result of the victim into account. Or instead, we just look at it and see that the punishment is pretty in line with what we've seen before and say it's OK.

There used to be a time where this was seen as a racing incident and there would be no punishment at all. It's racing, and it's a driver who locked his brakes a bit.


Ignoring circumstance will allow situations like this occur, though. The goal should be a just outcome, because that's what penalties are for. A drive-through or a stop-go would have been a just punishment for a bad bit of driving that ruined another driver's race.

BIB: I don't think that's true. I think it's to punish errant behavior, not tip the scales of justice. As has been pointed out, often consequences are long term but penalties are given fairly soon after events, unless the stewards have had a very busy afternoon. It's virtually impossible to make a punishment fit the crime in certain situations.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:17 am 
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A 5 second penalty does seem very lenient to me. When you think Bottas lost almost an entirely lap by cruising around with a flat tyre, a 5 second time penalty (to be taken at your convenience at the next pit stop) is nothing.

I appreciate we don't want to over punish mistakes, discourage overtaking and ruin races but Vettel should have had more than that.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:18 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
A 5 second penalty does seem very lenient to me. When you think Bottas lost almost an entirely lap by cruising around with a flat tyre, a 5 second time penalty (to be taken at your convenience at the next pit stop) is nothing.

I appreciate we don't want to over punish mistakes, discourage overtaking and ruin races but Vettel should have had more than that.

he did get more than that, though. He ended up at the back of the grid


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:25 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
hk77 wrote:
I don’t think he should have gotten a penalty.
1st corner incident.
I also think Bottas, could have given him more room.

I don't see how that would be possible. Bottas doesn't squeeze Vettel off the track on the run down to T1, he is completely ahead at the 100 metre board and pulls another car length ahead by the 50 metre board.

Its not reasonable to expect him to start leaving space when hes a car length or even more ahead. So long as Vettel doesn't lock up they both make that corner easily, unfortunately Vettel locked up.



after seeing the replay, i think Bottas, could have avoided the incident had he went a bit wider into t1, as there was space on the outside. More & above , Bottas has been in this position before, he should have been smarter about it, especially that he knows there is a possibility of a lock-up with cold brakes and tires.
im not saying that Vettel is 100% innocent, but in the end of the day its a 1st corner incident.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:52 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
A 5 second penalty does seem very lenient to me. When you think Bottas lost almost an entirely lap by cruising around with a flat tyre, a 5 second time penalty (to be taken at your convenience at the next pit stop) is nothing.

I appreciate we don't want to over punish mistakes, discourage overtaking and ruin races but Vettel should have had more than that.

he did get more than that, though. He ended up at the back of the grid


That isn't a punishment though, that's because of the damage he did to his own car, which was obviously less significant than the car he hit.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:56 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
A 5 second penalty does seem very lenient to me. When you think Bottas lost almost an entirely lap by cruising around with a flat tyre, a 5 second time penalty (to be taken at your convenience at the next pit stop) is nothing.

I appreciate we don't want to over punish mistakes, discourage overtaking and ruin races but Vettel should have had more than that.

he did get more than that, though. He ended up at the back of the grid


That isn't a punishment though, that's because of the damage he did to his own car, which was obviously less significant than the car he hit.

Some might argue that ending up at the back of the grid and losing valuable WDC points when in a title fight is punishment enough.

So if he'd hit Bottas at a slightly different angle and Bottas hadn't received a puncture, then the transgression wouldn't have been as severe? Even though Vettel would have done nothing differently?

Seems to me people aren't looking for punishment as much as retribution


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:06 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Not so much to construct a desired outcome, but to deliver a punishment equivalent to the act. I wouldn't go so far as to say disqualification (except in extreme circumstances I'm sure we'd agree on), but a stop-go would be a better punishment for the crime.

I think a lot of contention around these issues could be erased if F1 had the same stewards at every race. They're still revolving, aren't they? Or has that changed?


I wonder. Was Vettel to take himself out and end his race on that very first corner (and Bottas still ending the same way as he did), would you still call for a "punishment for the crime" and what it would be then, like few grid places for the next race or something?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:09 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Not so much to construct a desired outcome, but to deliver a punishment equivalent to the act.


But the act was a brief lock-up. It was minor, and unintentional.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:11 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
When you think Bottas lost almost an entirely lap by cruising around with a flat tyre


He didn't lose almost an entire lap, as there was a safety car and he could start from exactly 4 tenths behind Vettel.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:17 am 
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A first lap wheel lock that happens in pretty much every weekend ends up being talked as a "crime" that deserves stop and go penalties...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:39 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Migen wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The judgement should reflect the out come to an extent, like in normal law, you are judged by the consequence of you action - not the action itself. I.e. if you stab somebody and by chance they survive the consequences are very different to if, by chance they die.

Vettel destroyed Bottas' race, so it is without doubt 100% a penalty of some kind. If he had done the same move and somehow Bottas continued in P2 with no damage and Vettel destroyed his own race, it probably wouldn't be a penalty and the natural consequence may have been deemed enough on its own.

The extreme case is, what if that happened in a title decider and whoever finished ahead out of Bottas / Vettel in that race won the title and the same thing occurred. I think blag flag for Vettel then.

And if Vettel end up losing the title by just 1 point (to another driver, not Bottas), what do you do? Do you go back review Chinnese GP and black flag Verstappen who finished ahead, albeit guilty of running Vettel's race?
Handing out punishments based on the end result of the race, will make it a lot messier and expose the rules to countless of different interpretations.


I did not say the end result of the race or go back and change races. It was clear from immediately after the contact that Vettel went from 1 position behind, to one ahead and his car was undamaged once the nose was replaced and Bottas' was.

So would that have been an acceptable way to win a title? Drive into your opponent damaging his car, end up in front of him and win it. I don't think so. I would hope the rules would prevent such a scenario regardless of which driver was the beneficiary.


This sounds intentional, racing incident is not. What happened in France was definitely not intentional. I suspect that Vettel lost a lot of downforce behind Hamilton's car, just like Ricciardo did behind Max before, so he locked his brakes and couldn't stop in time. That is not a deliberate move and as sad as it is that Bottas's race was compromised, it happens in racing.

If you hit your opponent in the title fight, you can't guarantee that he will retire and you will not. It is just a very big gamble and all drivers would probably avoid it. Take the most recent 4 examples of drivers hitting each other, 1989, 1990, 1994 and 1997. The perpetrator always retired his car


If you are running 2nd and need to win and its a track with no overtaking, its not a gamble at all. Its your only chance.

The same as Alonso should have just done a complete Kamikaze on Petrov in Abu Dhabi 2010. In fact, under the current rules, Alonso should have just overtaken him by going off track and taken the 5 second penalty - he would have been able to pull that gap to him.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:52 am 
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Johnson wrote:
The same as Alonso should have just done a complete Kamikaze on Petrov in Abu Dhabi 2010. In fact, under the current rules, Alonso should have just overtaken him by going off track and taken the 5 second penalty - he would have been able to pull that gap to him.


Actually he would have needed to do that 3 times to end up in fourth, get 15 seconds worth of penalty and then get a gap of >15s seconds to Rosberg. :nod:

But I get your point and the current rules do allow for things like that. Thing is the intentional aspect as well - this was not something like purposefully acting to gain an advantage. It was a minor mistake - with bigger consequenses, that much is true, but still a minor mistake and fully unintentional.

This is racing.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:54 am 
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This one was also a penalty, quite similar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFG0KEsscOU

Bottas received a drive through penalty for that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:54 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Migen wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The judgement should reflect the out come to an extent, like in normal law, you are judged by the consequence of you action - not the action itself. I.e. if you stab somebody and by chance they survive the consequences are very different to if, by chance they die.

Vettel destroyed Bottas' race, so it is without doubt 100% a penalty of some kind. If he had done the same move and somehow Bottas continued in P2 with no damage and Vettel destroyed his own race, it probably wouldn't be a penalty and the natural consequence may have been deemed enough on its own.

The extreme case is, what if that happened in a title decider and whoever finished ahead out of Bottas / Vettel in that race won the title and the same thing occurred. I think blag flag for Vettel then.

And if Vettel end up losing the title by just 1 point (to another driver, not Bottas), what do you do? Do you go back review Chinnese GP and black flag Verstappen who finished ahead, albeit guilty of running Vettel's race?
Handing out punishments based on the end result of the race, will make it a lot messier and expose the rules to countless of different interpretations.


I did not say the end result of the race or go back and change races. It was clear from immediately after the contact that Vettel went from 1 position behind, to one ahead and his car was undamaged once the nose was replaced and Bottas' was.

So would that have been an acceptable way to win a title? Drive into your opponent damaging his car, end up in front of him and win it. I don't think so. I would hope the rules would prevent such a scenario regardless of which driver was the beneficiary.


This sounds intentional, racing incident is not. What happened in France was definitely not intentional. I suspect that Vettel lost a lot of downforce behind Hamilton's car, just like Ricciardo did behind Max before, so he locked his brakes and couldn't stop in time. That is not a deliberate move and as sad as it is that Bottas's race was compromised, it happens in racing.

If you hit your opponent in the title fight, you can't guarantee that he will retire and you will not. It is just a very big gamble and all drivers would probably avoid it. Take the most recent 4 examples of drivers hitting each other, 1989, 1990, 1994 and 1997. The perpetrator always retired his car


If you are running 2nd and need to win and its a track with no overtaking, its not a gamble at all. Its your only chance.

The same as Alonso should have just done a complete Kamikaze on Petrov in Abu Dhabi 2010. In fact, under the current rules, Alonso should have just overtaken him by going off track and taken the 5 second penalty - he would have been able to pull that gap to him.


The races I mentioned are nothing like the example you are providing now. In 3 of them the car in front shut the door to prevent overtaking, completely different scenario. And if you are second in a race that the overtaking is difficult, then you just have to take more risks or change strategy. This does not mean that you should overtake illegally outside the track or ram another car. It is not your only chance.

If Alonso overtook Petrov outside the track, he'd have to give the position back.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:24 pm 
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mds wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
When you think Bottas lost almost an entirely lap by cruising around with a flat tyre


He didn't lose almost an entire lap, as there was a safety car and he could start from exactly 4 tenths behind Vettel.


I think this is why he was given a 5 second penalty, as both were close together come the restart.

I don't like "first lap incident" for this as this was pretty much a 1v1 outbraking manouvre, not a mid pack scuffle with multiple cars.

Still, he lost probably 10 points so that is probably punishment enough - plus any extra strain put on the PU for powering through the pack.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:38 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
mds wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
When you think Bottas lost almost an entirely lap by cruising around with a flat tyre


He didn't lose almost an entire lap, as there was a safety car and he could start from exactly 4 tenths behind Vettel.


I think this is why he was given a 5 second penalty, as both were close together come the restart.

I don't like "first lap incident" for this as this was pretty much a 1v1 outbraking manouvre, not a mid pack scuffle with multiple cars.

Still, he lost probably 10 points so that is probably punishment enough - plus any extra strain put on the PU for powering through the pack.

Most likely 5 points as he was probably going to finish 3rd without the incident.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Not so much to construct a desired outcome, but to deliver a punishment equivalent to the act. I wouldn't go so far as to say disqualification (except in extreme circumstances I'm sure we'd agree on), but a stop-go would be a better punishment for the crime.

I think a lot of contention around these issues could be erased if F1 had the same stewards at every race. They're still revolving, aren't they? Or has that changed?


I wonder. Was Vettel to take himself out and end his race on that very first corner (and Bottas still ending the same way as he did), would you still call for a "punishment for the crime" and what it would be then, like few grid places for the next race or something?


Probably not, because I think not finishing the race would be punishment enough. I wouldn't blame a steward who thought that fair though.

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