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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:42 pm 
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j man wrote:
Bacus wrote:
j man wrote:
Bacus wrote:
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I like this track, technical, with many types of corners. Changes of direction or long, windy corners with various radius, this is the ingredient for spectacle. Not a make or brake situation, you can gain or lose a lot of time. That's why I think qualy seemed erratic, it's not easy to put the perfect lap here. And that's how it should be. And that's how it was some time ago when cars were not that easy and predictable to drive.
I think tomorrow will be overtakings.


Like I said, great track. I'm surprised so many people downplayed it. I found it awesome from the first glance.
Once again it proves to me the naivity of so many 'experienced' F1 fans, and of F1 management who can't still figure out what a good, spectacular track looks like.
Long, various radius corners were always the way to go.

Some great overtakings today, side by side, alternative racing lines, not just the same old boring move on the braking.

Yes today's race proved me wrong, it looks a good race track. But are long corners the way to go? Barcelona has a lot of them and rarely gives us good racing.


I didn't say that it's solely about long corners, it's about having changing radius through the corner, increasing or decreasing or all the combinations, just to not be linear. To allow the car behind to take an alternative line, to adjust the line according to the car in front,both to prepare a better exit and to escape the dirty air.
And also the straight lines coming from a slightly faster corner are good. Because from a slow corner with an abrupt acceleration the car in front is pulling away too much in terms of space.(and that's how it usually is on the new tracks).

At Barcelona you can't afford alternative lines, and you can't do nothing creative, it's just a narrow line that you have to follow precisely. Also is such a known track thy you can't improve much in terms of driving.
They should alternate more with different tracks.

:thumbup:

Fair enough, I would agree with that. I've always questioned the conventional wisdom from the circuit designers of a slow corner - long straight - slow corner sequence being the best for overtaking; this is a common layout in a lot of the new tracks but often doesn't work because of the concertina effect in slow corners that you mention. The circuits that do have the best overtaking opportunities either have very long straights (like Baku or Spa) or, as you say, corners where multiple lines are possible (like Austin or Shanghai).


China was awful this year until the SC came out. There was a few overtakes in the midfield today but without the turn 1 incident it would have been another straight forward 1 stop race at the front. I wouldn't use 2 cars starting at the back being ridiculously faster than the rest to make a judgement at how good the circuit is at overtaking, but then these days fans do have to hope for anything when most races need a SC or fans doing a rain dance.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:56 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:

China was awful this year until the SC came out. There was a few overtakes in the midfield today but without the turn 1 incident it would have been another straight forward 1 stop race at the front. I wouldn't use 2 cars starting at the back being ridiculously faster than the rest to make a judgement at how good the circuit is at overtaking, but then these days fans do have to hope for anything when most races need a SC or fans doing a rain dance.


I would say there was a lot of ontrack overtaking today that wasn't Seb or Valtteri charging up from the back. Certainly the battle between Daniel and Kimi was a good one even if Daniel was handicapped from damage to his front wing. The Haas, Renault, & and Sauber drivers had a lot of back and forth going on. Probably would have been even more overtakes if Force India hadn't lost both of their cars early.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:06 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
j man wrote:
Bacus wrote:
j man wrote:
Yes today's race proved me wrong, it looks a good race track. But are long corners the way to go? Barcelona has a lot of them and rarely gives us good racing.


I didn't say that it's solely about long corners, it's about having changing radius through the corner, increasing or decreasing or all the combinations, just to not be linear. To allow the car behind to take an alternative line, to adjust the line according to the car in front,both to prepare a better exit and to escape the dirty air.
And also the straight lines coming from a slightly faster corner are good. Because from a slow corner with an abrupt acceleration the car in front is pulling away too much in terms of space.(and that's how it usually is on the new tracks).

At Barcelona you can't afford alternative lines, and you can't do nothing creative, it's just a narrow line that you have to follow precisely. Also is such a known track thy you can't improve much in terms of driving.
They should alternate more with different tracks.

:thumbup:

Fair enough, I would agree with that. I've always questioned the conventional wisdom from the circuit designers of a slow corner - long straight - slow corner sequence being the best for overtaking; this is a common layout in a lot of the new tracks but often doesn't work because of the concertina effect in slow corners that you mention. The circuits that do have the best overtaking opportunities either have very long straights (like Baku or Spa) or, as you say, corners where multiple lines are possible (like Austin or Shanghai).


China was awful this year until the SC came out. There was a few overtakes in the midfield today but without the turn 1 incident it would have been another straight forward 1 stop race at the front. I wouldn't use 2 cars starting at the back being ridiculously faster than the rest to make a judgement at how good the circuit is at overtaking, but then these days fans do have to hope for anything when most races need a SC or fans doing a rain dance.

This year yes, historically though it's been good for overtaking. All circuits have served up a dull procession at some point, it's not necessarily the circuit's fault.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:11 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
This race would have been great fight for the front. Shame vettels turn 1 incident cost him so much

Cost Bottas more!!!!


I disagree, as vettel would have challenged lewis for the win and bottas would most likely held station behind lewis

How can you disagree???

Vettel was behind Bottas when he hit him was he not? Vettel then finished ahead of Bottas did he not?

THEREFORE it cost Bottas more!!!

Also there is nothing to suggest Vettel would have challenged for the win, he would have been behind Bottas as well.


1- why are you yelling??? Smh

2- Bottas was slightly ahead yes but Vettel was on softer tire which would have given him the advantage in the first stint. Vettel most likely would have passed Bottas either way without the contact as he has better race pace then Bottas.

3- Bottas is less likely to challenge Hamilton as Vettel would be going on full attack. Bottas cannot push Lewis like Vettel can / would have done given the same opportunity.

4- vettel lost the lead of the WDC due to his unforced error. So it actually cost vettel much more sir.

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Last edited by Mayhem on Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
With due respect to Kimi & his fans, when was the last time Kimi overtook (or was allowed to overtake) Vettel & finish ahead of him? I thought I'll never see this day again.

when was the last time Kimi was faster than Vettel and in a position to overtake him?


Hungary ?

Because of course it's so easy to overtake in Hungary. I'll grant he was quicker due to Vettel's issue but not quick enough to overtake him.


Well who knows.

He was quick enough to over cut him, as soon as Vettel pitted Kimi was going purple everywhere. They had to pull him in that lap otherwise he would have taken the lead. Rightly so though as Vettel was fighting for the WDC.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
zack14 wrote:
very unfair if Vettel is given a penalty for that

Why???

I'm in two minds. Was Vettel's mistake for sure but a small mistake locking up leading to big consequences.


Vettel's damage was actually done on Grosjean. I think considering he managed to knock two people off it was a fairly lenient penalty.

Yeah I've just seen Vettel's onboard, clumsy driving by Vettel, he was trying to overtake Grosjean, this spiel about his car being undriveable and responsible is somewhat laughable.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:10 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Borefest and snorefest held at the same day at the same place.
Hamilton - unchallenged
Verstappen - did good, 2nd is rewarding for a good pace and staying out of trouble
Kimi - finally a little spark from him, but far away from Vettel's pace
Ricciardo - dissapointing
Vettel - damage limitation and good pace after 1st lap mistake
Magnussen - not the first time the best of the rest, better teams should keep an eye on him
Sainz - good
Hulk - Good recovery
Bottas - yet another race where he is a victim
Leclerc - already a star
Alonso - his mind is already somewhere else

Borefest because Hamilton won?

There was plenty of overtaking, if you think it was boring then perhaps F1 is not for you?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:15 pm 
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Rockie wrote:


Watching this Hamilton and Max conversation, Hamilton is just ridiculous here saying Vettel should get a 5 place penalty for that.

Yeah I wouldn't be agreeing with that also how does 1 mistake by Vettel equal numerous mistakes by Verstappen like he is trying to make out?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:05 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Borefest because Hamilton won?

There was plenty of overtaking, if you think it was boring then perhaps F1 is not for you?


:thumbup: I am not sure what race some of these folks were watching, but I thought there was a lot of ontrack overtaking exclusive of Vettel's and Bottas' charge up the order.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:54 am 
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From the wrong thread..

Toby. wrote:
I'm not sure if it's been explained here yet, but could somebody try explain to me: I've been trying to understand the thought pattern of Red Bull around the pit-stop period.

When they called Max in, Ricciardo was about two seconds behind him after closing down a ~7 second gap. When Verstappen emerged, he came out a couple of seconds ahead of Vettel and the commentators remarked that it would put Ricciardo pretty close behind the fast-moving Vettel if he pit then.

However instead of pitting the next lap, and losing as little time as possible, Red Bull kept him out about another five laps - losing him about five seconds to Verstappen/Vettel. Surely if they had pit him the lap after Verstappen he'd have emerged closer to Vettel and with less to do to get back into P3.


Exediron wrote:
Add to that the question of why they pitted both cars onto Softs, when Kimi's stint on Ultras made it pretty clear that the softer tyres would go to the end on low fuel...

Not a great race strategy-wise from RBR today. They'd have been better off double-stacking the cars than what they actually did, but they certainly should have pitted RIC the lap after Max. Maybe they were taking a gamble on the rain appearing, but if so I think it was a poor one and makes the choice of Softs even more dubious.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:32 am 
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Toby. wrote:
From the wrong thread..

Oops! :blush:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:34 am 
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Max answers the question on what advice should he give Vettel regarding his driving style. Pay attention to Hamilton & then Raikkonen's 1000 watt expression:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:26 am 
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Well, I caught up with this race on Channel 4 last night as I was busy during the race.

Verstappen is looking back to his usual self over the last 2 weekends. Good for him.

Has Bottas has any good luck at all this season? If he ever has luck, it is always bad. The only bit of luck will have been if he won in Baku due to Vettel locking up, which looked very likely. Given this latest track looked like a Mercedes one, I think it is very likely Bottas will have been 2nd. We can't base that vettel will have been 2nd basing it on the fact Vettel was far quicker after the incident. Bottas suffered far more. To add to his bad luck, An example of a good pit stop for Mercedes is 2.5 seconds. His 2nd stop was 8.7 seconds. Basically, he lost as much time as Vettel did because of his penalty.This was just a rotten luck race for Bottas. Made a decent recovery, then lost pout a bit in the pits again due to a slow stop. 6th will have been almost certain without that problem in the pits.

25+18 points missed out on. 37. Then his great race ruined by the safety car in China probably cost him another 7. But Hamilton lost out on one win with a 2nd place so I won't include this. But basically, I don't think Bottas would be any futher than 10 points behind Hamilton at this stage without this terrible run of luck. The points gap will probably make a few that are not a fan of Bottas think he's again showing he's nowhere near Hamilton. 53 points difference just isn't a realistic example of the difference.



Drivers that did well I would say are Hamilton, Sainz, Verstappen, Leclerc and Magnussen. Kimi looked good, but really, he got past Vettel and Bottas for an obvious reason. And Ricciardo was slower anyway and had a problem from what I heard. Some decent overtaking but nothing that good. But he's showing that he is still decent IMO.

Stroll did look to struggle, but that williams looks terrible. Even bad drivers wouldn't haver to fight to control the thing that much if it was good.

Not just by Alonso's standards even, buit even without concidering that, he was really really bad yesterday. Had a clumsy spin and Vandoorne looked quicker quite easily.. Sorry to say, I think Alonso was one of the worst out there this race. But this is rare for him so I should forgive him. But I am really starting to dislike Alonso. I don't respect his attitude at all. I think he's showing he just isn't interested and should give his seat to someone else. Despite him being a great driver most of the time.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:01 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Not just by Alonso's standards even, buit even without concidering that, he was really really bad yesterday. Had a clumsy spin and Vandoorne looked quicker quite easily.. Sorry to say, I think Alonso was one of the worst out there this race. But this is rare for him so I should forgive him. But I am really starting to dislike Alonso. I don't respect his attitude at all. I think he's showing he just isn't interested and should give his seat to someone else. Despite him being a great driver most of the time.

Not defending Alonso's attitude, but I don't see where you get the idea that Vandoorne looked quicker. Alonso had to pit on lap one (while ahead of Vandoorne) because of debris from the Gasly/Ocon crash and then tried to run to the end on Softs; that didn't work, which is why Vandoorne was able to catch and pass him. After that he gave up and started trying to set fastest lap, which brings us back to the attitude.

Personally - and this is coming from someone who is as close to an Alonso fan as I am to being a fan of any one driver - I think he should retire from F1 after this year. He's just not enjoying it anymore, and he's enjoying every other sort of racing he tries more. Do WEC; do IndyCar. Enough trundling around at the back of the grid.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:26 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Not defending Alonso's attitude, but I don't see where you get the idea that Vandoorne looked quicker. Alonso had to pit on lap one (while ahead of Vandoorne) because of debris from the Gasly/Ocon crash and then tried to run to the end on Softs; that didn't work, which is why Vandoorne was able to catch and pass him. After that he gave up and started trying to set fastest lap, which brings us back to the attitude.


Pretty sure Vandoorne was ahead of Alonso after the T1 happenings?
But agree, it's hard to make statements on pace when the strategies are so wildly different.

Quote:
Personally - and this is coming from someone who is as close to an Alonso fan as I am to being a fan of any one driver - I think he should retire from F1 after this year. He's just not enjoying it anymore, and he's enjoying every other sort of racing he tries more. Do WEC; do IndyCar. Enough trundling around at the back of the grid.


I think it's very possible he'll retire. McLaren is not there and the first realistic shot they'll get again is in 2021 when regulations change. They blew this period, they are up and down but even their ups aren't good enough, and I don't see there being some silver bullet that will get them in the frame this year nor the next.

So if he stays, then it only makes sense to endure this for the 2019 and 2020 seasons and bridge the gap to 2021, and even then it's far from certain he'll get a good car in 2021. I don't think this is a compelling prospect for him. His radio message form yesterday again showed he is properly fed up.

The only reason he would stay is because he is also doing the WEC superseason and if his goal is to become a WEC champion then it's only logical to keep his options open and stay in F1 for next year as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:36 am 
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mds wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Not defending Alonso's attitude, but I don't see where you get the idea that Vandoorne looked quicker. Alonso had to pit on lap one (while ahead of Vandoorne) because of debris from the Gasly/Ocon crash and then tried to run to the end on Softs; that didn't work, which is why Vandoorne was able to catch and pass him. After that he gave up and started trying to set fastest lap, which brings us back to the attitude.

Pretty sure Vandoorne was ahead of Alonso after the T1 happenings?
But agree, it's hard to make statements on pace when the strategies are so wildly different.

I think Vandoorne got past after Alonso had to run off track to avoid the collision, yes. But since whatever damage he sustained was enough to make him pit that lap (punctured tyre, I assume) I don't think that shows any greater pace on Stoffel's part, it just shows that he was lucky enough to avoid damage. You could say that Vandoorne was faster, but it's a bit like saying Kimi was faster than Vettel. True, but not a very relevant indication of driver performance.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:35 am 
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It's fun to see Max lecturing the reporters. Apparently they had no effect on him, which is surprising considering how keen he is to push his ' I haven't changed anything to change the results I've been getting'.

Did Marko and Horner not suggest he should change his approach? Did Mateschitz have a word with him? If so was it to tell him to keep doing what he was doing?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:45 am 
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babararacucudada wrote:
It's fun to see Max lecturing the reporters. Apparently they had no effect on him, which is surprising considering how keen he is to push his ' I haven't changed anything to change the results I've been getting'.

Did Marko and Horner not suggest he should change his approach? Did Mateschitz have a word with him? If so was it to tell him to keep doing what he was doing?


He will soon learn the power of reporters, as this will not be forgotten.

They will patiently wait till his next mistake which is always costly.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:42 am 
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Finally managed to watch the race as the catch up wasn't available until 1am or so!

Fairly boring race again, but I do like the fast, flowing track layout. Just a shame that it's such an eyesore with those lines everywhere.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:07 am 
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Toby. wrote:
From the wrong thread..

Toby. wrote:
I'm not sure if it's been explained here yet, but could somebody try explain to me: I've been trying to understand the thought pattern of Red Bull around the pit-stop period.

When they called Max in, Ricciardo was about two seconds behind him after closing down a ~7 second gap. When Verstappen emerged, he came out a couple of seconds ahead of Vettel and the commentators remarked that it would put Ricciardo pretty close behind the fast-moving Vettel if he pit then.

However instead of pitting the next lap, and losing as little time as possible, Red Bull kept him out about another five laps - losing him about five seconds to Verstappen/Vettel. Surely if they had pit him the lap after Verstappen he'd have emerged closer to Vettel and with less to do to get back into P3.


Exediron wrote:
Add to that the question of why they pitted both cars onto Softs, when Kimi's stint on Ultras made it pretty clear that the softer tyres would go to the end on low fuel...

Not a great race strategy-wise from RBR today. They'd have been better off double-stacking the cars than what they actually did, but they certainly should have pitted RIC the lap after Max. Maybe they were taking a gamble on the rain appearing, but if so I think it was a poor one and makes the choice of Softs even more dubious.


The first part I can answer. Ricciardo was gaining time on Vettel still. If they pitted him the very next lap he would have come out behind Vettel.
If you look at the times, it seems like if they leave Ricciardo out 4-5 more laps he will clear Vettel, but Ricciarrdo's time drop off once Max pits.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 0Ricciardo

With regards to putting on the US. Verstappen stopped at half distance at which point Red Bull had no idea Kimi could take the US to 70% race distance. Also in the first stint, Kimi was slow on the US so there is no evidence it was a better tyre. Kimi got dropped by both Red Bull in the first stint.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:10 am 
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Toby. wrote:
From the wrong thread..

Toby. wrote:
I'm not sure if it's been explained here yet, but could somebody try explain to me: I've been trying to understand the thought pattern of Red Bull around the pit-stop period.

When they called Max in, Ricciardo was about two seconds behind him after closing down a ~7 second gap. When Verstappen emerged, he came out a couple of seconds ahead of Vettel and the commentators remarked that it would put Ricciardo pretty close behind the fast-moving Vettel if he pit then.

However instead of pitting the next lap, and losing as little time as possible, Red Bull kept him out about another five laps - losing him about five seconds to Verstappen/Vettel. Surely if they had pit him the lap after Verstappen he'd have emerged closer to Vettel and with less to do to get back into P3.


Exediron wrote:
Add to that the question of why they pitted both cars onto Softs, when Kimi's stint on Ultras made it pretty clear that the softer tyres would go to the end on low fuel...

Not a great race strategy-wise from RBR today. They'd have been better off double-stacking the cars than what they actually did, but they certainly should have pitted RIC the lap after Max. Maybe they were taking a gamble on the rain appearing, but if so I think it was a poor one and makes the choice of Softs even more dubious.

On a track were you can pass it made little difference, Ricciardo had little trouble in catching then passing Vettel.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:12 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Max answers the question on what advice should he give Vettel regarding his driving style. Pay attention to Hamilton & then Raikkonen's 1000 watt expression:


Yeah like you making multiple mistakes is the same as someone making one mistake. :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:26 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I caught up with this race on Channel 4 last night as I was busy during the race.

Verstappen is looking back to his usual self over the last 2 weekends. Good for him.

Has Bottas has any good luck at all this season? If he ever has luck, it is always bad. The only bit of luck will have been if he won in Baku due to Vettel locking up, which looked very likely. Given this latest track looked like a Mercedes one, I think it is very likely Bottas will have been 2nd. We can't base that vettel will have been 2nd basing it on the fact Vettel was far quicker after the incident. Bottas suffered far more. To add to his bad luck, An example of a good pit stop for Mercedes is 2.5 seconds. His 2nd stop was 8.7 seconds. Basically, he lost as much time as Vettel did because of his penalty.This was just a rotten luck race for Bottas. Made a decent recovery, then lost pout a bit in the pits again due to a slow stop. 6th will have been almost certain without that problem in the pits.

25+18 points missed out on. 37. Then his great race ruined by the safety car in China probably cost him another 7. But Hamilton lost out on one win with a 2nd place so I won't include this. But basically, I don't think Bottas would be any futher than 10 points behind Hamilton at this stage without this terrible run of luck. The points gap will probably make a few that are not a fan of Bottas think he's again showing he's nowhere near Hamilton. 53 points difference just isn't a realistic example of the difference.


Very hard on Bottas indeed, if Hamilton and Vettel finish above him in the next 2 races then his championship hopes are over. Requiring 1 driver who is slightly quicker than you to have 2-3 DNFs is one thing but needing 2 drivers to do the same makes it near impossible.

I think that is playing the numbers up a bit, yesterday he lost 12 points - not 18 - as he still took home 6 points. Also in Baku, he lead the race for 1 single lap after obtaining the lead by luck. I think more realistically he lost 18 points that day. But he would still be within 10 points of Hamilton without all his bad luck and has driven very well this year, he has earned his seat and shows the value of having a solid 2nd driver in the car.

The thing I can't understand is how Kimi is so close to him in the WDC with Kimi having 1 DNF more. It doesn't seem a reflection of the season. Also Ricciardo ahead with also 1 more DNF (I guess that shows the value of wins).


Last edited by Johnson on Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:26 am 
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pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Max answers the question on what advice should he give Vettel regarding his driving style. Pay attention to Hamilton & then Raikkonen's 1000 watt expression:


Yeah like you making multiple mistakes is the same as someone making one mistake. :uhoh:


Agree but I can see a 2010 vintage Vettel taking a similar stance in Verstappen's position.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:30 am 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I caught up with this race on Channel 4 last night as I was busy during the race.

Verstappen is looking back to his usual self over the last 2 weekends. Good for him.

Has Bottas has any good luck at all this season? If he ever has luck, it is always bad. The only bit of luck will have been if he won in Baku due to Vettel locking up, which looked very likely. Given this latest track looked like a Mercedes one, I think it is very likely Bottas will have been 2nd. We can't base that vettel will have been 2nd basing it on the fact Vettel was far quicker after the incident. Bottas suffered far more. To add to his bad luck, An example of a good pit stop for Mercedes is 2.5 seconds. His 2nd stop was 8.7 seconds. Basically, he lost as much time as Vettel did because of his penalty.This was just a rotten luck race for Bottas. Made a decent recovery, then lost pout a bit in the pits again due to a slow stop. 6th will have been almost certain without that problem in the pits.

25+18 points missed out on. 37. Then his great race ruined by the safety car in China probably cost him another 7. But Hamilton lost out on one win with a 2nd place so I won't include this. But basically, I don't think Bottas would be any futher than 10 points behind Hamilton at this stage without this terrible run of luck. The points gap will probably make a few that are not a fan of Bottas think he's again showing he's nowhere near Hamilton. 53 points difference just isn't a realistic example of the difference.


Very hard on Bottas indeed, if Hamilton and Vettel finish above him in the next 2 races then his championship hopes are over. Requiring 1 driver who is slightly quicker than you to have 2-3 DNFs is one thing but needing 2 drivers to do the same makes it near impossible.

I think that is playing the numbers up a bit, yesterday he lost 12 points - not 18 - as he still took home 6 points. Also in Baku, he lead the race for 1 single lap after obtaining the lead by luck. I think more realistically he lost 18 points that day. But he would still be within 10 points of Hamilton without all his bad luck and has driven very well this year, he has earned his seat and shows the value of having a solid 2nd driver in the car.

The thing I can't understand is how Kimi is so close to him in the WDC with Kimi having 1 DNF more. It doesn't seem a reflection of the season. Also Ricciardo ahead with also 1 more DNF (I guess that shows the value of wins).

Bottas basically had a DNF in Australia were he finished 8th although that was his own fault.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:34 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Max answers the question on what advice should he give Vettel regarding his driving style. Pay attention to Hamilton & then Raikkonen's 1000 watt expression:


Yeah like you making multiple mistakes is the same as someone making one mistake. :uhoh:


Agree but I can see a 2010 vintage Vettel taking a similar stance in Verstappen's position.

Well I hope that Verstappen noted that Vettel got penalised for the incident, maybe a 5 second penalty is not a big enough deterrent but at that point Vettel had ruined his own race, I can't help feeling that Verstappen is just trying to pave the way for Max attack 11.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:41 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Max answers the question on what advice should he give Vettel regarding his driving style. Pay attention to Hamilton & then Raikkonen's 1000 watt expression:


Yeah like you making multiple mistakes is the same as someone making one mistake. :uhoh:


Agree but I can see a 2010 vintage Vettel taking a similar stance in Verstappen's position.


Nope Vettel takes a stand for incidents he is involved in and not involve himself in other peoples incident, like some other drivers.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:44 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Max answers the question on what advice should he give Vettel regarding his driving style. Pay attention to Hamilton & then Raikkonen's 1000 watt expression:


Yeah like you making multiple mistakes is the same as someone making one mistake. :uhoh:


Agree but I can see a 2010 vintage Vettel taking a similar stance in Verstappen's position.


Nope Vettel takes a stand for incidents he is involved in and not involve himself in other peoples incident, like some other drivers.

That's very true, if Vettel is not involved then he is not interested.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Max answers the question on what advice should he give Vettel regarding his driving style. Pay attention to Hamilton & then Raikkonen's 1000 watt expression:


Yeah like you making multiple mistakes is the same as someone making one mistake. :uhoh:


Agree but I can see a 2010 vintage Vettel taking a similar stance in Verstappen's position.


Nope Vettel takes a stand for incidents he is involved in and not involve himself in other peoples incident, like some other drivers.

That's very true, if Vettel is not involved then he is not interested.


Give him a big pat on the back :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:36 pm 
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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vett ... k-1047489/

Speaking about his recovery, Vettel said: “Obviously I was out of position but I was surprised to be honest.

“I think it was to do with quite a strong headwind we had. From the east end of the track to the west end down the long straight.

“That was helping a lot because we were gaining a lot in the second part of the straights, which obviously made the tow quite strong.

“If the wind was the other way around I think it would have been more difficult.”

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -zu-milde/

Nico Hulkenberg added:" In headwind suffers only the front man. The pursuer hangs in the slipstream. Thus, the DRS effect has a double effect. "

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Borefest and snorefest held at the same day at the same place.
Hamilton - unchallenged
Verstappen - did good, 2nd is rewarding for a good pace and staying out of trouble
Kimi - finally a little spark from him, but far away from Vettel's pace
Ricciardo - dissapointing
Vettel - damage limitation and good pace after 1st lap mistake
Magnussen - not the first time the best of the rest, better teams should keep an eye on him
Sainz - good
Hulk - Good recovery
Bottas - yet another race where he is a victim
Leclerc - already a star
Alonso - his mind is already somewhere else

Borefest because Hamilton won?

There was plenty of overtaking, if you think it was boring then perhaps F1 is not for you?


He gives 11 reasons, why do you only focus on Hamilton. Come on mate, not everything is a dig to Lewis


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:49 pm 
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was verstappen raised to be a spoiled little $%^& ?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:05 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
was verstappen raised to be a spoiled little $%^& ?


Spoiled is not the correct word.

I have no doubt he has been imprinted, from early age, to never have doubts and to never let him get put aside. Jos's experiences in F1 undoubtedly have contributed to the way he raised his son.

So far, he's been absolutely right to do so, given he's at the upper echelons in F1 already.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:00 pm 
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mds wrote:
pc27b wrote:
was verstappen raised to be a spoiled little $%^& ?


Spoiled is not the correct word.

I have no doubt he has been imprinted, from early age, to never have doubts and to never let him get put aside. Jos's experiences in F1 undoubtedly have contributed to the way he raised his son.

So far, he's been absolutely right to do so, given he's at the upper echelons in F1 already.



Even if Max were at the upper echelon of F1 (not there yet in my opinion), that doesn't necessarily justify what is seen my many as arrogance on the track and an apparent attitude of entitlement. Maybe "spoiled" is not the best word... Then again it might be. Machiavellian training is not necessarily the best approach to child raising or auto racing.
;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:47 pm 
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mds wrote:
Spoiled is not the correct word.

I have no doubt he has been imprinted, from early age, to never have doubts and to never let him get put aside. Jos's experiences in F1 undoubtedly have contributed to the way he raised his son.

So far, he's been absolutely right to do so, given he's at the upper echelons in F1 already.

I think that's very much a matter of opinion, hanging largely on the unanswerable question of whether Max was going to be just as quick without the Machiavellian upbringing. In my opinion, Jos is a toxic individual who has imparted far too many of his own toxic personality traits to Max.

Other drivers with far less arrogance and entitlement get to the top echelons of F1 as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:07 pm 
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It was very positive to see Leclerc dwelling on his little mistake in the race. It's that kind of perfectionism he'll need in future.

He is in the position at the moment where all the talk is of what a great performance he produced, and he did.
But in a hypothetical situation where he is at Ferrari next season; a similar mistake that allows Hamilton/Bottas past would have the knives out.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:19 am 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
It was very positive to see Leclerc dwelling on his little mistake in the race. It's that kind of perfectionism he'll need in future.

He is in the position at the moment where all the talk is of what a great performance he produced, and he did.
But in a hypothetical situation where he is at Ferrari next season; a similar mistake that allows Hamilton/Bottas past would have the knives out.


Agreed, when he gets to ferrari there will be no room for error as anything and everything will be scrutinized. Very crucial point in his carrer now to get the f1 wheel time and hone his race craft so that when he gets the call to the big boys he can deliver out the gate.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:03 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Toby. wrote:
From the wrong thread..

Toby. wrote:
I'm not sure if it's been explained here yet, but could somebody try explain to me: I've been trying to understand the thought pattern of Red Bull around the pit-stop period.

When they called Max in, Ricciardo was about two seconds behind him after closing down a ~7 second gap. When Verstappen emerged, he came out a couple of seconds ahead of Vettel and the commentators remarked that it would put Ricciardo pretty close behind the fast-moving Vettel if he pit then.

However instead of pitting the next lap, and losing as little time as possible, Red Bull kept him out about another five laps - losing him about five seconds to Verstappen/Vettel. Surely if they had pit him the lap after Verstappen he'd have emerged closer to Vettel and with less to do to get back into P3.


Exediron wrote:
Add to that the question of why they pitted both cars onto Softs, when Kimi's stint on Ultras made it pretty clear that the softer tyres would go to the end on low fuel...

Not a great race strategy-wise from RBR today. They'd have been better off double-stacking the cars than what they actually did, but they certainly should have pitted RIC the lap after Max. Maybe they were taking a gamble on the rain appearing, but if so I think it was a poor one and makes the choice of Softs even more dubious.


The first part I can answer. Ricciardo was gaining time on Vettel still. If they pitted him the very next lap he would have come out behind Vettel.
If you look at the times, it seems like if they leave Ricciardo out 4-5 more laps he will clear Vettel, but Ricciarrdo's time drop off once Max pits.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 0Ricciardo

With regards to putting on the US. Verstappen stopped at half distance at which point Red Bull had no idea Kimi could take the US to 70% race distance. Also in the first stint, Kimi was slow on the US so there is no evidence it was a better tyre. Kimi got dropped by both Red Bull in the first stint.


Thanks for that. Shame that Ricciardo's front wing started involuntarily shedding weight around that pit stop. It might have made for some interest up the front.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:27 am 
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Blake wrote:
Even if Max were at the upper echelon of F1 (not there yet in my opinion)


Blake, he is in one of the 6 top seats, and being cemented in that position as he has committed for the next few years. In my book, that's very much the upper echelons.

Quote:
that doesn't necessarily justify what is seen my many as arrogance on the track and an apparent attitude of entitlement. Maybe "spoiled" is not the best word... Then again it might be. Machiavellian training is not necessarily the best approach to child raising or auto racing.
;)


I don't even know whether to agree, but all in all, he is there, so there must have been some things right in his upbringing. He is also firmly standing ground, he made it clear at Toro Rosso already he was not to be moved aside for Sainz, things like that. Paddock takes notice.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:32 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
Spoiled is not the correct word.

I have no doubt he has been imprinted, from early age, to never have doubts and to never let him get put aside. Jos's experiences in F1 undoubtedly have contributed to the way he raised his son.

So far, he's been absolutely right to do so, given he's at the upper echelons in F1 already.

I think that's very much a matter of opinion, hanging largely on the unanswerable question of whether Max was going to be just as quick without the Machiavellian upbringing. In my opinion, Jos is a toxic individual who has imparted far too many of his own toxic personality traits to Max.

Other drivers with far less arrogance and entitlement get to the top echelons of F1 as well.


Being quick is not always enough though. Jos was a highly exciting talent when he arrived in F1, and we all have our idea on how good he actually was when in F1, but I'm very certain he thinks he was sacrificed being sat next to Schumacher, that he was too gullible, and this impacted his career. This has shaped the way he would bring Max up, to make sure Max was ready not to let the same happen to him ever.

As I said, we can all have our opinions on that, we can think it's selfish and arrogant, but in the end that too he was taught not to care about. He is going to make sure he's in a position to have success, and if the people on the wayside boo then that's an acceptable consequence.

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