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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Leclerc is a future Champ
Vandoorne needs to up his game

But are either of these true?

Leclerc is apparently excelling in a Sauber....or at least he is in relation to Ericsson who is at best a competent journeyman

Meanwhile Vandoorne is struggling in a McLaren...or at least he is relation to Alonso a known entity who always gets the most from any car

Who's to say Vandoorne wouldnt have achieved a similar point haul as Leclerc had he been in the Sauber for example. Any maybe Leclerc would have been even more battered than Vandoorne has had he sat in the other McLaren

Just makes me think about how when a junior driver gets the chance to drive in F1, I wonder how much their potential teammate weighs on their mind and could it actually affect their decision (management teams/sponsors aside).

You only get 1 chance at a first impression so the saying goes.

btw I know Vandoorne isn't a rookie - just makes the point well in terms of how a drivers ability is viewed

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:36 pm 
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The material is also a huge contribution to a rookies possibility to show progress.

LeClerc has a very good form in a car that's getting better and better and noone expects him to put in in a points position.
McLaren expects to be in points and is probably very demanding to do it in, in the last race Vandoorne caught debris.

Support from team is also a huge contribution, McLaren probably expects Alonso do to the work while Sauber is probably leaning on LeClerc already?

Put LecLerc and Vandoorne in the same material and same support who knows? But IMO LeClerc is the real deal.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:37 pm 
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I agree and it's not only team mate that's a factor. Vandoorne is in a car that is slower than expected whilst Leclerc is driving for a team we aren't used to seeing score points. If Leclerc was achieving the same results in a Williams as he is for Sauber he wouldn't be receiving plaudits that he is currently because we expect to see Williams scoring regular points.

Bottom line though, rookies almost never outscore experienced team mates. Just one of the current grid has managed it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I agree and it's not only team mate that's a factor. Vandoorne is in a car that is slower than expected whilst Leclerc is driving for a team we aren't used to seeing score points. If Leclerc was achieving the same results in a Williams as he is for Sauber he wouldn't be receiving plaudits that he is currently because we expect to see Williams scoring regular points.

Bottom line though, rookies almost never outscore experienced team mates. Just one of the current grid has managed it.


I suspect who you are talking about, but even with full team support and the best car he didn't outscored the experienced team mate.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:52 pm 
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Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:14 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I agree and it's not only team mate that's a factor. Vandoorne is in a car that is slower than expected whilst Leclerc is driving for a team we aren't used to seeing score points. If Leclerc was achieving the same results in a Williams as he is for Sauber he wouldn't be receiving plaudits that he is currently because we expect to see Williams scoring regular points.

Bottom line though, rookies almost never outscore experienced team mates. Just one of the current grid has managed it.


I suspect who you are talking about, but even with full team support and the best car he didn't outscored the experienced team mate.


You're wrong :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:15 pm 
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That's the problem with F1 in general. The driver actually doesn't mean that much. A lot of times, when a driver is made to look good, it is almost entirely down to having a weak teammate.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:15 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:19 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I agree and it's not only team mate that's a factor. Vandoorne is in a car that is slower than expected whilst Leclerc is driving for a team we aren't used to seeing score points. If Leclerc was achieving the same results in a Williams as he is for Sauber he wouldn't be receiving plaudits that he is currently because we expect to see Williams scoring regular points.

Bottom line though, rookies almost never outscore experienced team mates. Just one of the current grid has managed it.


I suspect who you are talking about, but even with full team support and the best car he didn't outscored the experienced team mate.

He means Bottas.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:21 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?

Of course that was entirely down to Vettel and had nothing to do with the Red Bull car.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Vandoorne is operating at about the same level as Kimi or Massa, whilst Leclerc is operating at a much higher level than Wehrlein, that's what we can see at the moment.

Vandoorne himself is saying that due to differences in cars sometimes his level is better than what it seems.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?

Of course that was entirely down to Vettel and had nothing to do with the Red Bull car.


Do you think so, wow : )


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I agree and it's not only team mate that's a factor. Vandoorne is in a car that is slower than expected whilst Leclerc is driving for a team we aren't used to seeing score points. If Leclerc was achieving the same results in a Williams as he is for Sauber he wouldn't be receiving plaudits that he is currently because we expect to see Williams scoring regular points.

Bottom line though, rookies almost never outscore experienced team mates. Just one of the current grid has managed it.


I suspect who you are talking about, but even with full team support and the best car he didn't outscored the experienced team mate.

He means Bottas.

I thought it would be Hamilton. His rookie year saw him finish above Alonso (although technically with the same score, so not outscoring), the 2xWDC and more experienced driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I agree and it's not only team mate that's a factor. Vandoorne is in a car that is slower than expected whilst Leclerc is driving for a team we aren't used to seeing score points. If Leclerc was achieving the same results in a Williams as he is for Sauber he wouldn't be receiving plaudits that he is currently because we expect to see Williams scoring regular points.

Bottom line though, rookies almost never outscore experienced team mates. Just one of the current grid has managed it.


I suspect who you are talking about, but even with full team support and the best car he didn't outscored the experienced team mate.

He means Bottas.

I thought it would be Hamilton. His rookie year saw him finish above Alonso (although technically with the same score, so not outscoring), the 2xWDC and more experienced driver.

No it's something he's brought forward before, 0 points difference is not scoring more points so is not outscoring.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I agree and it's not only team mate that's a factor. Vandoorne is in a car that is slower than expected whilst Leclerc is driving for a team we aren't used to seeing score points. If Leclerc was achieving the same results in a Williams as he is for Sauber he wouldn't be receiving plaudits that he is currently because we expect to see Williams scoring regular points.

Bottom line though, rookies almost never outscore experienced team mates. Just one of the current grid has managed it.


I suspect who you are talking about, but even with full team support and the best car he didn't outscored the experienced team mate.

He means Bottas.

I thought it would be Hamilton. His rookie year saw him finish above Alonso (although technically with the same score, so not outscoring), the 2xWDC and more experienced driver.

No it's something he's brought forward before, 0 points difference is not scoring more points so is not outscoring.

Thanks, I kind of pointed that out when I said "although technically with the same score, so not outscoring"...

Vettel also outscored Liuzzi in 2007, Liuzzi racing all year while Vettel only 7 races. Liuzzi was in his 3rd year in F1.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:22 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.

As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.


Last edited by Johnson on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:23 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I suspect who you are talking about, but even with full team support and the best car he didn't outscored the experienced team mate.

He means Bottas.

I thought it would be Hamilton. His rookie year saw him finish above Alonso (although technically with the same score, so not outscoring), the 2xWDC and more experienced driver.

No it's something he's brought forward before, 0 points difference is not scoring more points so is not outscoring.

Thanks, I kind of pointed that out when I said "although technically with the same score, so not outscoring"...

Vettel also outscored Liuzzi in 2007, Liuzzi racing all year while Vettel only 7 races. Liuzzi was in his 3rd year in F1.

Good find, Ricciardo also beat Liuzzi but this would be on a technicality that Liuzzi's results only count when Ricciardo was in the team although even then they both scored zero points.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Thanks, I kind of pointed that out when I said "although technically with the same score, so not outscoring"...

Vettel also outscored Liuzzi in 2007, Liuzzi racing all year while Vettel only 7 races. Liuzzi was in his 3rd year in F1.


Big points haul in one race can really skew the points, i.e. Stroll was ahead of Massa until the final round last year because of his Baku points when regularly being 1 second per lap slower than him.

Toro Rosso basically scored points in one single race all year, Vettel came 4th, Luizzi 6th in the Chinese GP with Vettel being a known wet weather great. I do not know the numbers but a better comparison would surely be there qualifying head to head which would be tough on Vettel since he was dropped into the car mid year.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Thanks, I kind of pointed that out when I said "although technically with the same score, so not outscoring"...

Vettel also outscored Liuzzi in 2007, Liuzzi racing all year while Vettel only 7 races. Liuzzi was in his 3rd year in F1.


Big points haul in one race can really skew the points, i.e. Stroll was ahead of Massa until the final round last year because of his Baku points when regularly being 1 second per lap slower than him.

Toro Rosso basically scored points in one race all year, Vettel came 4th, Luizzi 6th in the Chinese GP with Vettel being a known wet weather great. I do not know the numbers but a better comparison would surely be there qualifying head to head which would be tough on Vettel since he was dropped into the car mid year.

4-3 to Luizzi.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:35 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Thanks, I kind of pointed that out when I said "although technically with the same score, so not outscoring"...

Vettel also outscored Liuzzi in 2007, Liuzzi racing all year while Vettel only 7 races. Liuzzi was in his 3rd year in F1.


Big points haul in one race can really skew the points, i.e. Stroll was ahead of Massa until the final round last year because of his Baku points when regularly being 1 second per lap slower than him.

Toro Rosso basically scored points in one race all year, Vettel came 4th, Luizzi 6th in the Chinese GP with Vettel being a known wet weather great. I do not know the numbers but a better comparison would surely be there qualifying head to head which would be tough on Vettel since he was dropped into the car mid year.


A known wet weather great now. Not in 2007 in his first year. Plus it wasn't wet in the whole race. In addition, Vettel was hit with a 5 grid penalty in quali, so he only started 17th.

Add to this that the question was simply about outscoring one's team mate, not how they did it. Liuzzi was the better driver if you want, as expected against a rookie. But he was outscored.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Thanks, I kind of pointed that out when I said "although technically with the same score, so not outscoring"...

Vettel also outscored Liuzzi in 2007, Liuzzi racing all year while Vettel only 7 races. Liuzzi was in his 3rd year in F1.


Big points haul in one race can really skew the points, i.e. Stroll was ahead of Massa until the final round last year because of his Baku points when regularly being 1 second per lap slower than him.

Toro Rosso basically scored points in one race all year, Vettel came 4th, Luizzi 6th in the Chinese GP with Vettel being a known wet weather great. I do not know the numbers but a better comparison would surely be there qualifying head to head which would be tough on Vettel since he was dropped into the car mid year.


A known wet weather great now. Not in 2007 in his first year. Plus it wasn't wet in the whole race. In addition, Vettel was hit with a 5 grid penalty in quali, so he only started 17th.

Add to this that the question was simply about outscoring one's team mate, not how they did it. Liuzzi was the better driver if you want, as expected against a rookie. But he was outscored.


Yes! And I'd never noticed. I'm going to have to extend to my criteria to "over a full season" in future for my favourite little factoid.

Interestingly is Ericsson the only driver on the current grid to be outscored by a rookie over a full season whilst not a rookie himself? That would be Nasr back in 2015.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:40 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Thanks, I kind of pointed that out when I said "although technically with the same score, so not outscoring"...

Vettel also outscored Liuzzi in 2007, Liuzzi racing all year while Vettel only 7 races. Liuzzi was in his 3rd year in F1.


Big points haul in one race can really skew the points, i.e. Stroll was ahead of Massa until the final round last year because of his Baku points when regularly being 1 second per lap slower than him.

Toro Rosso basically scored points in one race all year, Vettel came 4th, Luizzi 6th in the Chinese GP with Vettel being a known wet weather great. I do not know the numbers but a better comparison would surely be there qualifying head to head which would be tough on Vettel since he was dropped into the car mid year.


A known wet weather great now. Not in 2007 in his first year. Plus it wasn't wet in the whole race. In addition, Vettel was hit with a 5 grid penalty in quali, so he only started 17th.

Add to this that the question was simply about outscoring one's team mate, not how they did it. Liuzzi was the better driver if you want, as expected against a rookie. But he was outscored.


Vettel was always wet weather specialist in the lower Formula. He out qualified Luizzi in Japan by over a second for example in the wet. I wasn't making jibe at Vettel, just merely pointing out the car scored points in 1 of the 18 races that year. So saying Vettel out scored Luizzi with only 7 races is a little misleading.

Similarly Jenson Button out scored Alonso but just having the reliable car in the races it was competitive. Also Prost to Senna in 1989. Coulthard also did the same to Webber in one season by getting a lucky podium. Stroll nearly to Massa last year.

Out scoring your team mate in cars that rarely score points can be misleading that was more my point, not a jibe at Vettel.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Leclerc is 20 right now. Vandoorne's rookie season was at the age of 25. I wonder how much Vandoorne's age helped him in the lower formulas. He's not old, but he was a few years older than most other drivers going through the junior categories these days.

Maybe because he joined F1 at the age of 25, he simply hasn't improved anywhere near as much as a driver who would join F1 at the age of 20.

Montoya was 25 when he made his F1 debut, and he never really improved that much over time. He was a slightly better driver in 2003 than he was towards the end of 2001, but his performances remained fairly static.

Rosberg was 20 when he made his F1 debut, and his improvement from 2006 to 2009 with Williams was staggering. He went from an inconsistent crash kid to one of the most consistent drivers on the grid.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:31 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Thanks, I kind of pointed that out when I said "although technically with the same score, so not outscoring"...

Vettel also outscored Liuzzi in 2007, Liuzzi racing all year while Vettel only 7 races. Liuzzi was in his 3rd year in F1.


Big points haul in one race can really skew the points, i.e. Stroll was ahead of Massa until the final round last year because of his Baku points when regularly being 1 second per lap slower than him.

Toro Rosso basically scored points in one race all year, Vettel came 4th, Luizzi 6th in the Chinese GP with Vettel being a known wet weather great. I do not know the numbers but a better comparison would surely be there qualifying head to head which would be tough on Vettel since he was dropped into the car mid year.


A known wet weather great now. Not in 2007 in his first year. Plus it wasn't wet in the whole race. In addition, Vettel was hit with a 5 grid penalty in quali, so he only started 17th.

Add to this that the question was simply about outscoring one's team mate, not how they did it. Liuzzi was the better driver if you want, as expected against a rookie. But he was outscored.


Vettel was always wet weather specialist in the lower Formula. He out qualified Luizzi in Japan by over a second for example in the wet. I wasn't making jibe at Vettel, just merely pointing out the car scored points in 1 of the 18 races that year. So saying Vettel out scored Luizzi with only 7 races is a little misleading.

Similarly Jenson Button out scored Alonso but just having the reliable car in the races it was competitive. Also Prost to Senna in 1989. Coulthard also did the same to Webber in one season by getting a lucky podium. Stroll nearly to Massa last year.

Out scoring your team mate in cars that rarely score points can be misleading that was more my point, not a jibe at Vettel.

Vettel did not race 18 races, only the last 7. Liuzzi had 18, 11 more races to score points, yet he didn't. Of course it was down to one race, but again the question was about outscoring the team mate as a rookie


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:47 am 
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Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.

As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.


And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:04 am 
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Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.
As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.
That's true, but circumstances play a part in that. Piquet had never been outclassed by a team mate before 1987, but that only took place after he had his massive accident, which clearly had an impact on him. Yet he's rarely in the discussions of GOATs, despite Prost referencing him as the driver he most admired in F1 before he joined.

It's possible my memory is failing me and I'm viewing through rose-tinted spectacles, but I really don't remember either Senna or Schumacher (pre-comeback) having off days or even seasons, the likes of which both Hamilton and Vettel have had.

edit: and, interestingly, Prost is usually in GOAT discussions, despite being thrashed on-track by Senna, as you say. I think standards can sometimes be flexible ;)


Last edited by Zoue on Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:07 am 
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AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.

As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.


And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?

while I agree with the overall point you are making, I don't think 2016 is a good example, as it was reliability, rather than performance, which cost Hamilton there, to be fair to him. 2011 for me would be a better example.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:18 am 
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AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.

As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.


And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?


Hamilton's not allowed any slack either when comparing him with the greats. The whole body of work is considered.

The difference between Vettel 2014 and Hamilton 2011 is that Vettel never replied. Hamilton came back and beat Button in 2012 where as Vettel moved on. It leaves more of a question mark over Vettel.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:45 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.

As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.


And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?


I don’t think Hamilton is in the discussion to be compared to Senna and Schumacher. Even if you remove 2011, he still got out qualified by Rosberg in 2014 and then the 2nd half of 2015 Rosberg was at his level. 2013 Rosberg was almost equal to him, I know he was new to the team but look what Senna did when he joined Prost’s Mclaren team... Now Bottas is on his pace a lot of the time. Hamilton is not at the very top level, he is a great driver also but not untouchable. Hamilton may look even better once he retires, especially if Bottas wins a WDC after he has gone to make nearly all his team mates WDC would make him look better.

Vettel, without 2014 you could say was looking in the same league as Senna and Schumacher but when he got his first true test either through a quirk or actual performance he wasn’t there. But then its down to the team mate again. Like always. We shall see how he stacks up next time against a different driver.

Neither of those two are doing things like Senna and Schumacher. Like Zoue says, those two did not have off seasons or days. Which is exactly how I remember it. One thing I will add though, is in modern F1 it is hard to hold an advantage like the old days. In this day and age, Senna’s team mate would study his driving style through the telementary relentlessly to find where he is quick and likely gain time themselves.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:13 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.

As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.


And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?

Oh the 3 year championship?

Hamilton beat Button in 2012, the final year they were teammates, he also beat Button in 2010, but yes that compares exactly with the beating Vettel took from Ricciardo.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.
As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.
That's true, but circumstances play a part in that. Piquet had never been outclassed by a team mate before 1987, but that only took place after he had his massive accident, which clearly had an impact on him. Yet he's rarely in the discussions of GOATs, despite Prost referencing him as the driver he most admired in F1 before he joined.

It's possible my memory is failing me and I'm viewing through rose-tinted spectacles, but I really don't remember either Senna or Schumacher (pre-comeback) having off days or even seasons, the likes of which both Hamilton and Vettel have had.

edit: and, interestingly, Prost is usually in GOAT discussions, despite being thrashed on-track by Senna, as you say. I think standards can sometimes be flexible ;)

Did Piquet ever get outclassed?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.

As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.


And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?


I don’t think Hamilton is in the discussion to be compared to Senna and Schumacher. Even if you remove 2011, he still got out qualified by Rosberg in 2014 and then the 2nd half of 2015 Rosberg was at his level. 2013 Rosberg was almost equal to him, I know he was new to the team but look what Senna did when he joined Prost’s Mclaren team... Now Bottas is on his pace a lot of the time. Hamilton is not at the very top level, he is a great driver also but not untouchable. Hamilton may look even better once he retires, especially if Bottas wins a WDC after he has gone to make nearly all his team mates WDC would make him look better.

Vettel, without 2014 you could say was looking in the same league as Senna and Schumacher but when he got his first true test either through a quirk or actual performance he wasn’t there. But then its down to the team mate again. Like always. We shall see how he stacks up next time against a different driver.

Neither of those two are doing things like Senna and Schumacher. Like Zoue says, those two did not have off seasons or days. Which is exactly how I remember it. One thing I will add though, is in modern F1 it is hard to hold an advantage like the old days. In this day and age, Senna’s team mate would study his driving style through the telementary relentlessly to find where he is quick and likely gain time themselves.

One thing I'll add in defence of today's drivers is that I feel that today's cars are much more finely balanced than in Senna's day and even the smallest misalignment can interfere with a car's balance and handling. And don't get me started on the tyres. Senna and Schumacher never had to contend with maintaining thermal temperatures like they do today. I'm inclined to cut them some slack for that aspect


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.

As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.


And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?

Oh the 3 year championship?

Hamilton beat Button in 2012, the final year they were teammates, he also beat Button in 2010, but yes that compares exactly with the beating Vettel took from Ricciardo.


I already know you can probably write 100 posts about it, but I merely stated a fact, and yes the beating Hamilton took in 2011 is comparable to what Vettel took in 2014.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:54 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.

As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.


And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?

Oh the 3 year championship?

Hamilton beat Button in 2012, the final year they were teammates, he also beat Button in 2010, but yes that compares exactly with the beating Vettel took from Ricciardo.


I already know you can probably write 100 posts about it, but I merely stated a fact, and yes the beating Hamilton took in 2011 is comparable to what Vettel took in 2014.

So 2-1 is the same as 0-1, maybe in bizzaro world?

Also if you go into specifics in 2011 Hamilton dominated Button in qualifying whilst Ricciardo beat Vettel all ends up, one thing that Hamilton has never lacked in any season is basic speed like Vettel did in 2014.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:14 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:

I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.

As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.


And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?

Oh the 3 year championship?

Hamilton beat Button in 2012, the final year they were teammates, he also beat Button in 2010, but yes that compares exactly with the beating Vettel took from Ricciardo.


I already know you can probably write 100 posts about it, but I merely stated a fact, and yes the beating Hamilton took in 2011 is comparable to what Vettel took in 2014.

Nope not really. In 2011 Hamilton was actually ahead of Button half way through the season. He seemingly lost focus after it became clear that Vettel was going to win the title and had an abysmal second half of the season. That's when Button surged ahead of him in the points (primarily due to DNFs). Button was NOT beating Hamilton in qualifying and was NOT faster than him. He was simply scoring more points at a point in the season where the championship was already over with. That combined with the fact that Hamilton obliterated Button the following year (forget the points, Hamilton lost an insane amount of points through reliability and team errors in 2012) makes it clear to anyone that Hamilton was in a different league from Jenson.

By contrast, Daniel was beating Vettel both on Saturdays and Sundays. He was FASTER than Vettel. That's a massive difference. With 2011, you would say that Button clearly had a better season than Hamilton. With 2014; you would likely say that Daniel was the better driver than Vettel. That is night and day different.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.
As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.
That's true, but circumstances play a part in that. Piquet had never been outclassed by a team mate before 1987, but that only took place after he had his massive accident, which clearly had an impact on him. Yet he's rarely in the discussions of GOATs, despite Prost referencing him as the driver he most admired in F1 before he joined.

It's possible my memory is failing me and I'm viewing through rose-tinted spectacles, but I really don't remember either Senna or Schumacher (pre-comeback) having off days or even seasons, the likes of which both Hamilton and Vettel have had.

edit: and, interestingly, Prost is usually in GOAT discussions, despite being thrashed on-track by Senna, as you say. I think standards can sometimes be flexible ;)

Did Piquet ever get outclassed?

Mansell in 1987. Piquet won the title, but on track Mansell was quicker. But in 1986 that wasn't the case and you can pretty much trace the moment Mansell improved relative to Piquet from the latter's big shunt


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Posts: 27867
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.
As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.
That's true, but circumstances play a part in that. Piquet had never been outclassed by a team mate before 1987, but that only took place after he had his massive accident, which clearly had an impact on him. Yet he's rarely in the discussions of GOATs, despite Prost referencing him as the driver he most admired in F1 before he joined.

It's possible my memory is failing me and I'm viewing through rose-tinted spectacles, but I really don't remember either Senna or Schumacher (pre-comeback) having off days or even seasons, the likes of which both Hamilton and Vettel have had.

edit: and, interestingly, Prost is usually in GOAT discussions, despite being thrashed on-track by Senna, as you say. I think standards can sometimes be flexible ;)

Did Piquet ever get outclassed?

Mansell in 1987. Piquet won the title, but on track Mansell was quicker. But in 1986 that wasn't the case and you can pretty much trace the moment Mansell improved relative to Piquet from the latter's big shunt

I never got the impression that Piquet was being outclassed though, but it was a long time ago.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:56 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:

There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.

As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.


And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?

Oh the 3 year championship?

Hamilton beat Button in 2012, the final year they were teammates, he also beat Button in 2010, but yes that compares exactly with the beating Vettel took from Ricciardo.


I already know you can probably write 100 posts about it, but I merely stated a fact, and yes the beating Hamilton took in 2011 is comparable to what Vettel took in 2014.

Nope not really. In 2011 Hamilton was actually ahead of Button half way through the season. He seemingly lost focus after it became clear that Vettel was going to win the title and had an abysmal second half of the season. That's when Button surged ahead of him in the points (primarily due to DNFs). Button was NOT beating Hamilton in qualifying and was NOT faster than him. He was simply scoring more points at a point in the season where the championship was already over with. That combined with the fact that Hamilton obliterated Button the following year (forget the points, Hamilton lost an insane amount of points through reliability and team errors in 2012) makes it clear to anyone that Hamilton was in a different league from Jenson.

By contrast, Daniel was beating Vettel both on Saturdays and Sundays. He was FASTER than Vettel. That's a massive difference. With 2011, you would say that Button clearly had a better season than Hamilton. With 2014; you would likely say that Daniel was the better driver than Vettel. That is night and day different.

So the excuse that Hamilton lost focus makes it okay that Button thrashed him? So when it became clear to Vettel early in 2014 that he wouldn't have a prayer of being in the championship hunt, it's not okay for Vettel to lose focus. Also, the team he's always wanted to drive for had an opening and why would Ferrari take someone who's currently be thrashed by Ricciardo? And in 2014 Vettel had vastly more reliability problems than Ricciardo did and it started from the very first pre-season practice session. And it was announced half-way through the season that Vettel was leaving so why would Red Bull not favor Ricciardo and wouldn't that make Vettel lose a bit more focus?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:01 pm 
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Gumption wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?

Oh the 3 year championship?

Hamilton beat Button in 2012, the final year they were teammates, he also beat Button in 2010, but yes that compares exactly with the beating Vettel took from Ricciardo.


I already know you can probably write 100 posts about it, but I merely stated a fact, and yes the beating Hamilton took in 2011 is comparable to what Vettel took in 2014.

Nope not really. In 2011 Hamilton was actually ahead of Button half way through the season. He seemingly lost focus after it became clear that Vettel was going to win the title and had an abysmal second half of the season. That's when Button surged ahead of him in the points (primarily due to DNFs). Button was NOT beating Hamilton in qualifying and was NOT faster than him. He was simply scoring more points at a point in the season where the championship was already over with. That combined with the fact that Hamilton obliterated Button the following year (forget the points, Hamilton lost an insane amount of points through reliability and team errors in 2012) makes it clear to anyone that Hamilton was in a different league from Jenson.

By contrast, Daniel was beating Vettel both on Saturdays and Sundays. He was FASTER than Vettel. That's a massive difference. With 2011, you would say that Button clearly had a better season than Hamilton. With 2014; you would likely say that Daniel was the better driver than Vettel. That is night and day different.

So the excuse that Hamilton lost focus makes it okay that Button thrashed him? So when it became clear to Vettel early in 2014 that he wouldn't have a prayer of being in the championship hunt, it's not okay for Vettel to lose focus. Also, the team he's always wanted to drive for had an opening and why would Ferrari take someone who's currently be thrashed by Ricciardo? And in 2014 Vettel had vastly more reliability problems than Ricciardo did and it started from the very first practice session. And it was announced half-way through the season that Vettel was leaving so why would Red Bull not favor Ricciardo and wouldn't that make Vettel lose a bit more focus?

I guess you missed the part about Hamilton still having good basic speed whilst in that respect Vettel was somewhat lacking, he had little answer for Ricciardo in both one lap speed and race pace.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Posts: 428
pokerman wrote:
Gumption wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Oh the 3 year championship?

Hamilton beat Button in 2012, the final year they were teammates, he also beat Button in 2010, but yes that compares exactly with the beating Vettel took from Ricciardo.


I already know you can probably write 100 posts about it, but I merely stated a fact, and yes the beating Hamilton took in 2011 is comparable to what Vettel took in 2014.

Nope not really. In 2011 Hamilton was actually ahead of Button half way through the season. He seemingly lost focus after it became clear that Vettel was going to win the title and had an abysmal second half of the season. That's when Button surged ahead of him in the points (primarily due to DNFs). Button was NOT beating Hamilton in qualifying and was NOT faster than him. He was simply scoring more points at a point in the season where the championship was already over with. That combined with the fact that Hamilton obliterated Button the following year (forget the points, Hamilton lost an insane amount of points through reliability and team errors in 2012) makes it clear to anyone that Hamilton was in a different league from Jenson.

By contrast, Daniel was beating Vettel both on Saturdays and Sundays. He was FASTER than Vettel. That's a massive difference. With 2011, you would say that Button clearly had a better season than Hamilton. With 2014; you would likely say that Daniel was the better driver than Vettel. That is night and day different.

So the excuse that Hamilton lost focus makes it okay that Button thrashed him? So when it became clear to Vettel early in 2014 that he wouldn't have a prayer of being in the championship hunt, it's not okay for Vettel to lose focus. Also, the team he's always wanted to drive for had an opening and why would Ferrari take someone who's currently be thrashed by Ricciardo? And in 2014 Vettel had vastly more reliability problems than Ricciardo did and it started from the very first practice session. And it was announced half-way through the season that Vettel was leaving so why would Red Bull not favor Ricciardo and wouldn't that make Vettel lose a bit more focus?

I guess you missed the part about Hamilton still having good basic speed whilst in that respect Vettel was somewhat lacking, he had little answer for Ricciardo in both one lap speed and race pace.

I didn't miss any part... Vettel had a performance clause in his contract. He was even comfortably behind Bottas. He's smart and wanted to make sure he could get out of his contract. It's hard to have good basic speed when you have to finish in the championship behind your teammate.


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