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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:29 pm 
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What pole position efforts do you think were particularly outstanding and what made them so, whether it be gap to team-mate or looking at the car dancing around the circuit or whatever else comes to mind..?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Lewis in Monza last year
Seb in Singapore last year
Lewis in Canada last year
Ricciardo in Monaco 2016 and 2018

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:24 pm 
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I'm sure I'm forgetting loads over recent seasons but those were the ones that I instantly thought of from the turbo era.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:39 am 
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There's a number from the classic eras - laps that have essentially entered folklore, like Senna's lap around Monaco or several of Clark's laps around Spa (in 1967, he was almost five seconds ahead of his teammate Graham Hill). Unfortunately video from that far back is very hard to find, so I can't recommend any way to watch those - if I knew how, I'd do it myself! :D

More recently, I would say (in no particular order):

* Any Vettel pole around Singapore, although 2015 was the most impressive for me. The way Vettel can take the corners in Singapore with absolutely no margin for error and get it right every time is something special.
* Hamilton's pole in Monza last year, as already mentioned. To be over a second faster than Verstappen - a very good wet weather driver in a very good car - is something quite unusual.
* On a slightly different note, Vettel's pole at Mexico last year was a standout to me; not because it was so good on its own, but because the Red Bull was obviously the quicker car and I was convinced Max was going to take pole right up until the last runs.

I'll try to remember to come back and think of some more...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:29 am 
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Lewis Hamilton
1. Monza 2017
2. Silverstone 2017
3. Melbourne 2018

Sebastian Vettel
1. Malaysia 2013
2. Singapore 2015
3. Singapore 2017

Nico Rosberg
1. Singapore 2016
2. China 2012
3. Abu Dhabi 2015

Fernando Alonso
1. Singapore 2010
2. Hungary 2003
3. Germany 2012

Kimi Raikkonen
1. Monaco 2005
2. Silverstone 2004
3. Monza 2006


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:14 am 
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Well you didn't specify Formula 1 poles so I'd put in a vote for this:

https://youtu.be/1jHUjT02OhY

Epic pole lap!

But if it has to be F1, then the best I can remember recently was Ricciardo at Monaco 2016:

https://youtu.be/vj8c0HCceWY

How he didn't knock a corner off I'll never know. Less grip available than 2018 so it's a little more on the ragged edge.

Walls lining a track really test a driver's kahunas.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:33 am 
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schuey 2012 monaco. 43 bloody years old


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:27 am 
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Not so much a pole lap it self from a specific race, but I really enjoyed the battles from the late 90's when Schumacher and Hakkinen would pump laps one after the other taking the provisional pole only for the other driver to get it back. It was absolutely fascinating with some great laps. They were just pushing each other leaving their team mates miles (well, seconds) away.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:34 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Not so much a pole lap it self from a specific race, but I really enjoyed the battles from the late 90's when Schumacher and Hakkinen would pump laps one after the other taking the provisional pole only for the other driver to get it back. It was absolutely fascinating with some great laps. They were just pushing each other leaving their team mates miles (well, seconds) away.

:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Not so recent but the most amazing pole lap (that no one has ever seen) is probably Senna at Monaco in 88'.

Nigel Mansell had a run in 92' where he set pole by 1 second or more in three straight rounds.

As far as recent years, Hamilton's pole in the wet last season at Monza to break the all time record was pretty impressive. The one he set in 2011 in Korea was also pretty special as it was the only time anyone other than Red Bull set pole that year.

The pole lap Vettel set in Singapore in 2015 was really on it as was last year's pole there.

I also was really impressed by Ricciardo's pole laps at Monaco in 2016 and this year.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Raikkonen Monaco '05
Rosberg China '12
Hamilton Korea '11
Vettel Monza '08
Alonso Singapore '10


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Not quite pole, but I always thought Kimi's pole attempt at Monaco in 2009 was pretty special. Missed out by two hundredths of a second in an inferior car. Great lap


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Who would've expected Fisichella to put a Force India on pole in just their 2nd year at Spa in 2009!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:07 pm 
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THIS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HOUdyBwKw

He was quick at times in practice but others were considerably faster. From out of nowhere really.
I remember literally jumping off my couch screaming Yeeeeeeessssssssss!!!!

My niece who was sitting next to me was like holy crap Tio! I didn't know anyone could be this crazy about Formula 1.
I usually watch my races all alone because my wife thinks it's stupid and my kids say it's boring, even my soon to be 14 year old who is a gifted driver and loves racing karts.
I don't understand that one myself but whatevs, I guess.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:02 pm 
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Vettel Mexico 2017. Just looked on the edge in every corner.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:35 pm 
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Schumi in Monaco is a good call. Technically not a pole lap - he didn't start on pole position - but a very special performance nonetheless.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Not particularly recent but Hill nearly putting an Arrows on pole in Jerez, only to get an get a yellow flag for a Minardi which span at the last corner, was pretty good going.

Fisi at Spa also gets my vote.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:41 pm 
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Couple of questions...

Given the circumstances it seems people are very impressed with Schumi at Monaco 2012, but in terms of raw pace how good was the lap considering he wasn't that far ahead of his team-mate. I have the same question regarding Hamilton's lap in Korea 2011 - didn't the car just simply have the pace that weekend and Hamilton got the car to where it was fully capable of without anything so special? He had a bigger gap to Button than Schumi did to Rosberg but it's still not utterly dominant. On these occasions, did Rosberg and Button also nail extremely fine laps, yet their teammates put in something special? Or are these laps not so impressive on raw pace, and being heralded due to circumstances such as Schumacher being an old past prime racer in his 40s or Red Bull being typically unstoppable in qualifying, adding to a sort of myth and illusion which can make the lap seem more impressive?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:52 pm 
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any of Schumacher's pole positions in 1996.

Alonso's poles in 2012.

Don't really understand the lovefest for Vettel's Singapore poles. I thought his pole positions in Abu Dhabi and Hungary and 2011 were far more impressive.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:11 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Or are these laps not so impressive on raw pace, and being heralded due to circumstances such as Schumacher being an old past prime racer in his 40s or Red Bull being typically unstoppable in qualifying, adding to a sort of myth and illusion which can make the lap seem more impressive?

That's it for me, certainly. Setting pole position in your 40s is difficult enough, but it was more than that - it was, at long last, the realization of the dream that Schumi could be competitive on his return to F1.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:52 am 
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I've always been fond of Jarno Trulli Monaco 2004:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:06 am 
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I'd like to add that I think Raikkonen's lap from Monaco last year was special, despite Vettel being so close to him. He nearly put it in the barrier in the first corner, but then went on to set a blistering lap. It was one of the most exciting to me.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:44 am 
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Not recent, But Keke Rosberg at Silverstone in 1985. I think the first ever F1 lap with an average over 160 mph

If memory serves, I think he had already won pole, but the lap was just below 160. So, Williams put on another set of qualy tyres, and he just went for it.

I was on the outside of Becketts when he came round, and "committed" is a serious understatement. If you ever needed evidence of what separated those guys from us mortals, this was it.

Best lap I ever witnessed, and I only saw about 10% of it, lol


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:26 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
THIS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HOUdyBwKw

He was quick at times in practice but others were considerably faster. From out of nowhere really.
I remember literally jumping off my couch screaming Yeeeeeeessssssssss!!!!

My niece who was sitting next to me was like holy crap Tio! I didn't know anyone could be this crazy about Formula 1.
I usually watch my races all alone because my wife thinks it's stupid and my kids say it's boring, even my soon to be 14 year old who is a gifted driver and loves racing karts.
I don't understand that one myself but whatevs, I guess.


Me too!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:05 am 
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EVERY LEWIS HAMILTON LAP EVER!!!! All 74!!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:50 am 
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I will say Rosberg's pole lap at Germany in 2016. Previous mechanical issues allowed him only 1 run at the end of Q3 and he nailed it. As a driver I wasn't particularly fond of I thought it was very impressive.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:54 am 
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Argentum wrote:
Not recent, But Keke Rosberg at Silverstone in 1985. I think the first ever F1 lap with an average over 160 mph

If memory serves, I think he had already won pole, but the lap was just below 160. So, Williams put on another set of qualy tyres, and he just went for it.

I was on the outside of Becketts when he came round, and "committed" is a serious understatement. If you ever needed evidence of what separated those guys from us mortals, this was it.

Best lap I ever witnessed, and I only saw about 10% of it, lol
I remember that one too!
I don't seem to remember that many "special" pole position laps; my favourite driver always seemed to make them look "normal". Perhaps that's when I started to consider qualifying as just qualifying, regardless of the fact the cars would be at their quickest.
One qualifying I do recall, is Jerez 1997, with the three top drivers scoring exactly the same time, down to a thousandth of a second. And apparently, the driver who could beat these three had to lift for a car spinning in front of him. I can't believe that's already 21 years ago. 8O

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
EVERY LEWIS HAMILTON LAP EVER!!!! All 74!!

:lol: I seriously and without joke hope you get some day a place in the Hamilton pit area for this! :) Talking about fan commitment! :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
I will say Rosberg's pole lap at Germany in 2016. Previous mechanical issues allowed him only 1 run at the end of Q3 and he nailed it. As a driver I wasn't particularly fond of I thought it was very impressive.


Yes, that is always my Rosberg great qualifying lap from 2016. To beat Hamilton with 1 run was amazing even if by a tenth. His lap in Singapore, we will never know how good it was as Hamilton missed all of FP2 and FP3 and the general trend that year was Hamilton to be quite a lot ahead in qualifying.

Also a few Rosberg laps in 2014 when he put 0.3-0.4 on Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:28 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Couple of questions...

Given the circumstances it seems people are very impressed with Schumi at Monaco 2012, but in terms of raw pace how good was the lap considering he wasn't that far ahead of his team-mate. I have the same question regarding Hamilton's lap in Korea 2011 - didn't the car just simply have the pace that weekend and Hamilton got the car to where it was fully capable of without anything so special? He had a bigger gap to Button than Schumi did to Rosberg but it's still not utterly dominant. On these occasions, did Rosberg and Button also nail extremely fine laps, yet their teammates put in something special? Or are these laps not so impressive on raw pace, and being heralded due to circumstances such as Schumacher being an old past prime racer in his 40s or Red Bull being typically unstoppable in qualifying, adding to a sort of myth and illusion which can make the lap seem more impressive?


Regarding Schumacher and Monaco:
- He beat Rosberg by 0.150. The gaps are always usually smaller in Monaco than other tracks. It is very rare for a large gap between team mates there
- Rosberg was a bit of a Monaco specialist himself and didn't out qualify Webber that day
- Schumacher was 43 years old then

Regarding Hamilton:
That is sometimes how it is, the result (the only pole of the year against Red Bull) over shadows the actual performance. Sure it was a good lap to be 0.3 ahead of Button but that was kind of expected about half the time.

The other problem is, if you thrash your team mate by too much then its obvious he struggled. For example, some of the occasions Hamilton beat Bottas by 0.7 last year.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:33 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Couple of questions...

Given the circumstances it seems people are very impressed with Schumi at Monaco 2012, but in terms of raw pace how good was the lap considering he wasn't that far ahead of his team-mate. I have the same question regarding Hamilton's lap in Korea 2011 - didn't the car just simply have the pace that weekend and Hamilton got the car to where it was fully capable of without anything so special? He had a bigger gap to Button than Schumi did to Rosberg but it's still not utterly dominant. On these occasions, did Rosberg and Button also nail extremely fine laps, yet their teammates put in something special? Or are these laps not so impressive on raw pace, and being heralded due to circumstances such as Schumacher being an old past prime racer in his 40s or Red Bull being typically unstoppable in qualifying, adding to a sort of myth and illusion which can make the lap seem more impressive?

It seems you and Exideron don’t quite fully see the most important variable that you point out in your incorrect assessment of Micchael pulling that lap in 2012.

The most crucial thing is that here, unlike with most other drivers we have an actual hard basis for comparison between all 4 drivers you mentioned. Hamilton was teammate to both Button and Rosberg and Hamilton is the key to seeing just how special that lap was. The gap between Hamilton and Button was consistently greater than it was to Rosberg, being as Rosberg and Hamilton were likely among the closest teammates ever in terms of qualifying speed. As such that would mean Rosberg is usually extracting almost everything the car has. However, just because 2 guys drive the same car, it doesn’t mean they drive the same. And if you KNOW Michael’s history, you’d know his setups are completely foreign to other drivers to the point they feel the cars are set up horribly. That weekend Michael was struggling to get his car consistent for the entirety of the lap but would somehow manage to fall behind in a section or two and was simply not as fast as Rosberg. The commentary team was expecting him to be further down the order given his times all weekend but when he came around the last 3 corners it looked fast but no one expected him eclipse even the top 4 positions, much less his teammate.

Some folks think it was more impressive to many of his fans because of his age and nostalgic reasons, but I don’t buy into the whole nonsense about drivers’ skills diminishing as they age and they can’t do it the way they used to mumbo jumbo because it’s simply not true, and Alonso and Raikkonen are proof of that. I stated in another thread several weeks ago how people incorrectly arrive at this opinion, but a place like Monaco where the circuit forces drivers to stay honest “or else” also helps explain that drivers don’t lose speed as they age. At Monaco reflexes and the acuity of the brain is more in the forefront than likely any other track and on that day NO ONE was more acutely focused than Michael and he pushed like hell to achieve that pole lap. To say it wasn’t that impressive is to either be kidding oneself or cheating the man out of a seriously impressive performance.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:40 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Invade wrote:
Couple of questions...

Given the circumstances it seems people are very impressed with Schumi at Monaco 2012, but in terms of raw pace how good was the lap considering he wasn't that far ahead of his team-mate. I have the same question regarding Hamilton's lap in Korea 2011 - didn't the car just simply have the pace that weekend and Hamilton got the car to where it was fully capable of without anything so special? He had a bigger gap to Button than Schumi did to Rosberg but it's still not utterly dominant. On these occasions, did Rosberg and Button also nail extremely fine laps, yet their teammates put in something special? Or are these laps not so impressive on raw pace, and being heralded due to circumstances such as Schumacher being an old past prime racer in his 40s or Red Bull being typically unstoppable in qualifying, adding to a sort of myth and illusion which can make the lap seem more impressive?

It seems you and Exideron don’t quite fully see the most important variable that you point out in your incorrect assessment of Micchael pulling that lap in 2012.

The most crucial thing is that here, unlike with most other drivers we have an actual hard basis for comparison between all 4 drivers you mentioned. Hamilton was teammate to both Button and Rosberg and Hamilton is the key to seeing just how special that lap was. The gap between Hamilton and Button was consistently greater than it was to Rosberg, being as Rosberg and Hamilton were likely among the closest teammates ever in terms of qualifying speed. As such that would mean Rosberg is usually extracting almost everything the car has. However, just because 2 guys drive the same car, it doesn’t mean they drive the same. And if you KNOW Michael’s history, you’d know his setups are completely foreign to other drivers to the point they feel the cars are set up horribly. That weekend Michael was struggling to get his car consistent for the entirety of the lap but would somehow manage to fall behind in a section or two and was simply not as fast as Rosberg. The commentary team was expecting him to be further down the order given his times all weekend but when he came around the last 3 corners it looked fast but no one expected him eclipse even the top 4 positions, much less his teammate.

Some folks think it was more impressive to many of his fans because of his age and nostalgic reasons, but I don’t buy into the whole nonsense about drivers’ skills diminishing as they age and they can’t do it the way they used to mumbo jumbo because it’s simply not true, and Alonso and Raikkonen are proof of that. I stated in another thread several weeks ago how people incorrectly arrive at this opinion, but a place like Monaco where the circuit forces drivers to stay honest “or else” also helps explain that drivers don’t lose speed as they age. At Monaco reflexes and the acuity of the brain is more in the forefront than likely any other track and on that day NO ONE was more acutely focused than Michael and he pushed like hell to achieve that pole lap. To say it wasn’t that impressive is to either be kidding oneself or cheating the man out of a seriously impressive performance.


He beat his team-mate by a bit and got pole. I asked if Rosberg put in a particularly good lap and yet Schumacher bested it, or was Rosberg's lap just a solid lap? It was swings and roundabouts between Hamilton and Rosberg in qualifying. They both often put in great laps but often not at the same time.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:45 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
THIS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HOUdyBwKw

He was quick at times in practice but others were considerably faster. From out of nowhere really.
I remember literally jumping off my couch screaming Yeeeeeeessssssssss!!!!

My niece who was sitting next to me was like holy crap Tio! I didn't know anyone could be this crazy about Formula 1.
I usually watch my races all alone because my wife thinks it's stupid and my kids say it's boring, even my soon to be 14 year old who is a gifted driver and loves racing karts.
I don't understand that one myself but whatevs, I guess.


Me too!


Me 3. My vote has to go for this one as well. Lots of things going against him but they didn't stop him from showing everyone else how it's done.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:58 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Invade wrote:
Couple of questions...

Given the circumstances it seems people are very impressed with Schumi at Monaco 2012, but in terms of raw pace how good was the lap considering he wasn't that far ahead of his team-mate. I have the same question regarding Hamilton's lap in Korea 2011 - didn't the car just simply have the pace that weekend and Hamilton got the car to where it was fully capable of without anything so special? He had a bigger gap to Button than Schumi did to Rosberg but it's still not utterly dominant. On these occasions, did Rosberg and Button also nail extremely fine laps, yet their teammates put in something special? Or are these laps not so impressive on raw pace, and being heralded due to circumstances such as Schumacher being an old past prime racer in his 40s or Red Bull being typically unstoppable in qualifying, adding to a sort of myth and illusion which can make the lap seem more impressive?

It seems you and Exideron don’t quite fully see the most important variable that you point out in your incorrect assessment of Micchael pulling that lap in 2012.

The most crucial thing is that here, unlike with most other drivers we have an actual hard basis for comparison between all 4 drivers you mentioned. Hamilton was teammate to both Button and Rosberg and Hamilton is the key to seeing just how special that lap was. The gap between Hamilton and Button was consistently greater than it was to Rosberg, being as Rosberg and Hamilton were likely among the closest teammates ever in terms of qualifying speed. As such that would mean Rosberg is usually extracting almost everything the car has. However, just because 2 guys drive the same car, it doesn’t mean they drive the same. And if you KNOW Michael’s history, you’d know his setups are completely foreign to other drivers to the point they feel the cars are set up horribly. That weekend Michael was struggling to get his car consistent for the entirety of the lap but would somehow manage to fall behind in a section or two and was simply not as fast as Rosberg. The commentary team was expecting him to be further down the order given his times all weekend but when he came around the last 3 corners it looked fast but no one expected him eclipse even the top 4 positions, much less his teammate.

Some folks think it was more impressive to many of his fans because of his age and nostalgic reasons, but I don’t buy into the whole nonsense about drivers’ skills diminishing as they age and they can’t do it the way they used to mumbo jumbo because it’s simply not true, and Alonso and Raikkonen are proof of that. I stated in another thread several weeks ago how people incorrectly arrive at this opinion, but a place like Monaco where the circuit forces drivers to stay honest “or else” also helps explain that drivers don’t lose speed as they age. At Monaco reflexes and the acuity of the brain is more in the forefront than likely any other track and on that day NO ONE was more acutely focused than Michael and he pushed like hell to achieve that pole lap. To say it wasn’t that impressive is to either be kidding oneself or cheating the man out of a seriously impressive performance.


Schumacher was never the same driver at 41, he would not be anywhere near his best. It's not mumbo jumbo but true in near enough any sport. Using Kimi as a example isn't really great either, his been using up a seat for years now. Alonso at 36 is alot different to Schumacher at 41 with a 3 year gap.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Invade wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Invade wrote:
Couple of questions...

Given the circumstances it seems people are very impressed with Schumi at Monaco 2012, but in terms of raw pace how good was the lap considering he wasn't that far ahead of his team-mate. I have the same question regarding Hamilton's lap in Korea 2011 - didn't the car just simply have the pace that weekend and Hamilton got the car to where it was fully capable of without anything so special? He had a bigger gap to Button than Schumi did to Rosberg but it's still not utterly dominant. On these occasions, did Rosberg and Button also nail extremely fine laps, yet their teammates put in something special? Or are these laps not so impressive on raw pace, and being heralded due to circumstances such as Schumacher being an old past prime racer in his 40s or Red Bull being typically unstoppable in qualifying, adding to a sort of myth and illusion which can make the lap seem more impressive?

It seems you and Exideron don’t quite fully see the most important variable that you point out in your incorrect assessment of Micchael pulling that lap in 2012.

The most crucial thing is that here, unlike with most other drivers we have an actual hard basis for comparison between all 4 drivers you mentioned. Hamilton was teammate to both Button and Rosberg and Hamilton is the key to seeing just how special that lap was. The gap between Hamilton and Button was consistently greater than it was to Rosberg, being as Rosberg and Hamilton were likely among the closest teammates ever in terms of qualifying speed. As such that would mean Rosberg is usually extracting almost everything the car has. However, just because 2 guys drive the same car, it doesn’t mean they drive the same. And if you KNOW Michael’s history, you’d know his setups are completely foreign to other drivers to the point they feel the cars are set up horribly. That weekend Michael was struggling to get his car consistent for the entirety of the lap but would somehow manage to fall behind in a section or two and was simply not as fast as Rosberg. The commentary team was expecting him to be further down the order given his times all weekend but when he came around the last 3 corners it looked fast but no one expected him eclipse even the top 4 positions, much less his teammate.

Some folks think it was more impressive to many of his fans because of his age and nostalgic reasons, but I don’t buy into the whole nonsense about drivers’ skills diminishing as they age and they can’t do it the way they used to mumbo jumbo because it’s simply not true, and Alonso and Raikkonen are proof of that. I stated in another thread several weeks ago how people incorrectly arrive at this opinion, but a place like Monaco where the circuit forces drivers to stay honest “or else” also helps explain that drivers don’t lose speed as they age. At Monaco reflexes and the acuity of the brain is more in the forefront than likely any other track and on that day NO ONE was more acutely focused than Michael and he pushed like hell to achieve that pole lap. To say it wasn’t that impressive is to either be kidding oneself or cheating the man out of a seriously impressive performance.


He beat his team-mate by a bit and got pole. I asked if Rosberg put in a particularly good lap and yet Schumacher bested it, or was Rosberg's lap just a solid lap? It was swings and roundabouts between Hamilton and Rosberg in qualifying. They both often put in great laps but often not at the same time.

Say whaaaaaattt??!?!?!

They were so close one got pole by mere hundredths and even thousandths!
What you guys need to do is quit listening to the commentators saying the gaps are as large as they imply. They're simply not.
For a real world comparison, you can't even blink in the time that separates these guys.

As for Rosberg's lap being that good in 2012, let's see… Mercedes was a distant fifth to Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren and Lotus that season and Nico out-qualified them at Monaco and his car was the better set up one for the team all weekend. So no Rosberg's lap wasn't solid, it was excellent.

The following season Rosberg got Pole in a car which the team finally got the aero going in the right direction. The 2012 car was heavily flawed and unstable but the 2013 car was a title challenger and Nico's pole lap was 1.13.876 whereas Michael's lap in a much more unstable car was 1.14.301. That's less than half a second difference. Says a whole lot about Michael's lap.


F1_Ernie wrote:
Schumacher was never the same driver at 41, he would not be anywhere near his best. It's not mumbo jumbo but true in near enough any sport. Using Kimi as a example isn't really great either, his been using up a seat for years now. Alonso at 36 is alot different to Schumacher at 41 with a 3 year gap.

Racing drivers are not the same as other "athletes" and their abilities do not wain over time the way athletes who play physical sports (don't be smarty pasts guys) do because in those other sports the body is wearing down. Drivers' bodies do not wear down anywhere near to the level of those guys. If anything Alonso and Hamilton are proof that drivers actually get better with age because they exercise and refine the most crucial component of a driver and that's their brain. Keep in mind that today drivers use simulators constantly (less Kimi - which would likely help him squeeze a bit more speed) so their brains and entire skills sets remain sharp and don' drop off.

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:26 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Invade wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Invade wrote:
Couple of questions...

Given the circumstances it seems people are very impressed with Schumi at Monaco 2012, but in terms of raw pace how good was the lap considering he wasn't that far ahead of his team-mate. I have the same question regarding Hamilton's lap in Korea 2011 - didn't the car just simply have the pace that weekend and Hamilton got the car to where it was fully capable of without anything so special? He had a bigger gap to Button than Schumi did to Rosberg but it's still not utterly dominant. On these occasions, did Rosberg and Button also nail extremely fine laps, yet their teammates put in something special? Or are these laps not so impressive on raw pace, and being heralded due to circumstances such as Schumacher being an old past prime racer in his 40s or Red Bull being typically unstoppable in qualifying, adding to a sort of myth and illusion which can make the lap seem more impressive?

It seems you and Exideron don’t quite fully see the most important variable that you point out in your incorrect assessment of Micchael pulling that lap in 2012.

The most crucial thing is that here, unlike with most other drivers we have an actual hard basis for comparison between all 4 drivers you mentioned. Hamilton was teammate to both Button and Rosberg and Hamilton is the key to seeing just how special that lap was. The gap between Hamilton and Button was consistently greater than it was to Rosberg, being as Rosberg and Hamilton were likely among the closest teammates ever in terms of qualifying speed. As such that would mean Rosberg is usually extracting almost everything the car has. However, just because 2 guys drive the same car, it doesn’t mean they drive the same. And if you KNOW Michael’s history, you’d know his setups are completely foreign to other drivers to the point they feel the cars are set up horribly. That weekend Michael was struggling to get his car consistent for the entirety of the lap but would somehow manage to fall behind in a section or two and was simply not as fast as Rosberg. The commentary team was expecting him to be further down the order given his times all weekend but when he came around the last 3 corners it looked fast but no one expected him eclipse even the top 4 positions, much less his teammate.

Some folks think it was more impressive to many of his fans because of his age and nostalgic reasons, but I don’t buy into the whole nonsense about drivers’ skills diminishing as they age and they can’t do it the way they used to mumbo jumbo because it’s simply not true, and Alonso and Raikkonen are proof of that. I stated in another thread several weeks ago how people incorrectly arrive at this opinion, but a place like Monaco where the circuit forces drivers to stay honest “or else” also helps explain that drivers don’t lose speed as they age. At Monaco reflexes and the acuity of the brain is more in the forefront than likely any other track and on that day NO ONE was more acutely focused than Michael and he pushed like hell to achieve that pole lap. To say it wasn’t that impressive is to either be kidding oneself or cheating the man out of a seriously impressive performance.


He beat his team-mate by a bit and got pole. I asked if Rosberg put in a particularly good lap and yet Schumacher bested it, or was Rosberg's lap just a solid lap? It was swings and roundabouts between Hamilton and Rosberg in qualifying. They both often put in great laps but often not at the same time.

Say whaaaaaattt??!?!?!

They were so close one got pole by mere hundredths and even thousandths!
What you guys need to do is quit listening to the commentators saying the gaps are as large as they imply. They're simply not.

For a real world comparison, you can't even blink in the time that separates these guys.

As for Rosberg's lap being that good in 2012, let's see… Mercedes was a distant fifth to Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren and Lotus that season and Nico out-qualified them at Monaco and his car was the better set up one for the team all weekend. So no Rosberg's lap wasn't solid, it was excellent.

The following season Rosberg got Pole in a car which the team finally got the aero going in the right direction. The 2012 car was heavily flawed and unstable but the 2013 car was a title challenger and Nico's pole lap was 1.13.876 whereas Michael's lap in a much more unstable car was 1.14.301. That's less than half a second difference. Says a whole lot about Michael's lap.


F1_Ernie wrote:
Schumacher was never the same driver at 41, he would not be anywhere near his best. It's not mumbo jumbo but true in near enough any sport. Using Kimi as a example isn't really great either, his been using up a seat for years now. Alonso at 36 is alot different to Schumacher at 41 with a 3 year gap.

Racing drivers are not the same as other "athletes" and their abilities do not wain over time the way athletes who play physical sports (don't be smarty pasts guys) do because in those other sports the body is wearing down. Drivers' bodies do not wear down anywhere near to the level of those guys. If anything Alonso and Hamilton are proof that drivers actually get better with age because they exercise and refine the most crucial component of a driver and that's their brain. Keep in mind that today drivers use simulators constantly (less Kimi - which would likely help him squeeze a bit more speed) so their brains and entire skills sets remain sharp and don' drop off.


They often beat each other by several tenths, which has made it rather awkward for me to judge their qualifying efforts. They weren't that close as often as you might think over any given weekend. They were close on average when taking into account all the weekends.

Apparently Lewis' pole lap at Korea 2011 is a contender for being particularly outstanding on the basis that it was the only non Red Bull pole of the season, but how was the car for that particular weekend?

How was the Mercedes for the 2012 Monaco weekend - was it the 5th best, or was it a car worthy of pole and always with a fair old chance of being put on pole?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 2955
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Invade wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Invade wrote:
Couple of questions...

Given the circumstances it seems people are very impressed with Schumi at Monaco 2012, but in terms of raw pace how good was the lap considering he wasn't that far ahead of his team-mate. I have the same question regarding Hamilton's lap in Korea 2011 - didn't the car just simply have the pace that weekend and Hamilton got the car to where it was fully capable of without anything so special? He had a bigger gap to Button than Schumi did to Rosberg but it's still not utterly dominant. On these occasions, did Rosberg and Button also nail extremely fine laps, yet their teammates put in something special? Or are these laps not so impressive on raw pace, and being heralded due to circumstances such as Schumacher being an old past prime racer in his 40s or Red Bull being typically unstoppable in qualifying, adding to a sort of myth and illusion which can make the lap seem more impressive?

It seems you and Exideron don’t quite fully see the most important variable that you point out in your incorrect assessment of Micchael pulling that lap in 2012.

The most crucial thing is that here, unlike with most other drivers we have an actual hard basis for comparison between all 4 drivers you mentioned. Hamilton was teammate to both Button and Rosberg and Hamilton is the key to seeing just how special that lap was. The gap between Hamilton and Button was consistently greater than it was to Rosberg, being as Rosberg and Hamilton were likely among the closest teammates ever in terms of qualifying speed. As such that would mean Rosberg is usually extracting almost everything the car has. However, just because 2 guys drive the same car, it doesn’t mean they drive the same. And if you KNOW Michael’s history, you’d know his setups are completely foreign to other drivers to the point they feel the cars are set up horribly. That weekend Michael was struggling to get his car consistent for the entirety of the lap but would somehow manage to fall behind in a section or two and was simply not as fast as Rosberg. The commentary team was expecting him to be further down the order given his times all weekend but when he came around the last 3 corners it looked fast but no one expected him eclipse even the top 4 positions, much less his teammate.

Some folks think it was more impressive to many of his fans because of his age and nostalgic reasons, but I don’t buy into the whole nonsense about drivers’ skills diminishing as they age and they can’t do it the way they used to mumbo jumbo because it’s simply not true, and Alonso and Raikkonen are proof of that. I stated in another thread several weeks ago how people incorrectly arrive at this opinion, but a place like Monaco where the circuit forces drivers to stay honest “or else” also helps explain that drivers don’t lose speed as they age. At Monaco reflexes and the acuity of the brain is more in the forefront than likely any other track and on that day NO ONE was more acutely focused than Michael and he pushed like hell to achieve that pole lap. To say it wasn’t that impressive is to either be kidding oneself or cheating the man out of a seriously impressive performance.


He beat his team-mate by a bit and got pole. I asked if Rosberg put in a particularly good lap and yet Schumacher bested it, or was Rosberg's lap just a solid lap? It was swings and roundabouts between Hamilton and Rosberg in qualifying. They both often put in great laps but often not at the same time.

Say whaaaaaattt??!?!?!

They were so close one got pole by mere hundredths and even thousandths!
What you guys need to do is quit listening to the commentators saying the gaps are as large as they imply. They're simply not.
For a real world comparison, you can't even blink in the time that separates these guys.

As for Rosberg's lap being that good in 2012, let's see… Mercedes was a distant fifth to Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren and Lotus that season and Nico out-qualified them at Monaco and his car was the better set up one for the team all weekend. So no Rosberg's lap wasn't solid, it was excellent.

The following season Rosberg got Pole in a car which the team finally got the aero going in the right direction. The 2012 car was heavily flawed and unstable but the 2013 car was a title challenger and Nico's pole lap was 1.13.876 whereas Michael's lap in a much more unstable car was 1.14.301. That's less than half a second difference. Says a whole lot about Michael's lap.


F1_Ernie wrote:
Schumacher was never the same driver at 41, he would not be anywhere near his best. It's not mumbo jumbo but true in near enough any sport. Using Kimi as a example isn't really great either, his been using up a seat for years now. Alonso at 36 is alot different to Schumacher at 41 with a 3 year gap.

Racing drivers are not the same as other "athletes" and their abilities do not wain over time the way athletes who play physical sports (don't be smarty pasts guys) do because in those other sports the body is wearing down. Drivers' bodies do not wear down anywhere near to the level of those guys. If anything Alonso and Hamilton are proof that drivers actually get better with age because they exercise and refine the most crucial component of a driver and that's their brain. Keep in mind that today drivers use simulators constantly (less Kimi - which would likely help him squeeze a bit more speed) so their brains and entire skills sets remain sharp and don' drop off.


So you think Schumacher was the same driver at 41 than at his peak? Hamilton is around his peak now so of course he will better now than when he first started in F1 :?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:03 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Invade wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Invade wrote:
Couple of questions...

Given the circumstances it seems people are very impressed with Schumi at Monaco 2012, but in terms of raw pace how good was the lap considering he wasn't that far ahead of his team-mate. I have the same question regarding Hamilton's lap in Korea 2011 - didn't the car just simply have the pace that weekend and Hamilton got the car to where it was fully capable of without anything so special? He had a bigger gap to Button than Schumi did to Rosberg but it's still not utterly dominant. On these occasions, did Rosberg and Button also nail extremely fine laps, yet their teammates put in something special? Or are these laps not so impressive on raw pace, and being heralded due to circumstances such as Schumacher being an old past prime racer in his 40s or Red Bull being typically unstoppable in qualifying, adding to a sort of myth and illusion which can make the lap seem more impressive?

It seems you and Exideron don’t quite fully see the most important variable that you point out in your incorrect assessment of Micchael pulling that lap in 2012.

The most crucial thing is that here, unlike with most other drivers we have an actual hard basis for comparison between all 4 drivers you mentioned. Hamilton was teammate to both Button and Rosberg and Hamilton is the key to seeing just how special that lap was. The gap between Hamilton and Button was consistently greater than it was to Rosberg, being as Rosberg and Hamilton were likely among the closest teammates ever in terms of qualifying speed. As such that would mean Rosberg is usually extracting almost everything the car has. However, just because 2 guys drive the same car, it doesn’t mean they drive the same. And if you KNOW Michael’s history, you’d know his setups are completely foreign to other drivers to the point they feel the cars are set up horribly. That weekend Michael was struggling to get his car consistent for the entirety of the lap but would somehow manage to fall behind in a section or two and was simply not as fast as Rosberg. The commentary team was expecting him to be further down the order given his times all weekend but when he came around the last 3 corners it looked fast but no one expected him eclipse even the top 4 positions, much less his teammate.

Some folks think it was more impressive to many of his fans because of his age and nostalgic reasons, but I don’t buy into the whole nonsense about drivers’ skills diminishing as they age and they can’t do it the way they used to mumbo jumbo because it’s simply not true, and Alonso and Raikkonen are proof of that. I stated in another thread several weeks ago how people incorrectly arrive at this opinion, but a place like Monaco where the circuit forces drivers to stay honest “or else” also helps explain that drivers don’t lose speed as they age. At Monaco reflexes and the acuity of the brain is more in the forefront than likely any other track and on that day NO ONE was more acutely focused than Michael and he pushed like hell to achieve that pole lap. To say it wasn’t that impressive is to either be kidding oneself or cheating the man out of a seriously impressive performance.


He beat his team-mate by a bit and got pole. I asked if Rosberg put in a particularly good lap and yet Schumacher bested it, or was Rosberg's lap just a solid lap? It was swings and roundabouts between Hamilton and Rosberg in qualifying. They both often put in great laps but often not at the same time.

Say whaaaaaattt??!?!?!

They were so close one got pole by mere hundredths and even thousandths!
What you guys need to do is quit listening to the commentators saying the gaps are as large as they imply. They're simply not.
For a real world comparison, you can't even blink in the time that separates these guys.

As for Rosberg's lap being that good in 2012, let's see… Mercedes was a distant fifth to Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren and Lotus that season and Nico out-qualified them at Monaco and his car was the better set up one for the team all weekend. So no Rosberg's lap wasn't solid, it was excellent.

The following season Rosberg got Pole in a car which the team finally got the aero going in the right direction. The 2012 car was heavily flawed and unstable but the 2013 car was a title challenger and Nico's pole lap was 1.13.876 whereas Michael's lap in a much more unstable car was 1.14.301. That's less than half a second difference. Says a whole lot about Michael's lap.


F1_Ernie wrote:
Schumacher was never the same driver at 41, he would not be anywhere near his best. It's not mumbo jumbo but true in near enough any sport. Using Kimi as a example isn't really great either, his been using up a seat for years now. Alonso at 36 is alot different to Schumacher at 41 with a 3 year gap.

Racing drivers are not the same as other "athletes" and their abilities do not wain over time the way athletes who play physical sports (don't be smarty pasts guys) do because in those other sports the body is wearing down. Drivers' bodies do not wear down anywhere near to the level of those guys. If anything Alonso and Hamilton are proof that drivers actually get better with age because they exercise and refine the most crucial component of a driver and that's their brain. Keep in mind that today drivers use simulators constantly (less Kimi - which would likely help him squeeze a bit more speed) so their brains and entire skills sets remain sharp and don' drop off.


So you think Schumacher was the same driver at 41 than at his peak? Hamilton is around his peak now so of course he will better now than when he first started in F1 :?

Michael had been out for 3 years before his return but he wasn't driving outside the ROC once a year and the occasional Kart outing, so he was not in prime shape upon his return. After a few months in his return though he was physically back almost 100% but his brain was pretty much acclimated almost immediately. However, he was now racing on tires unlike anything he'd ever driven and because of his age it was more difficult for him to adapt to driving them. Muscle memory is something that try as you may, once something is programmed in your brain as a first hand reflex, your brain will sometimes automatically react how it finds most familiar and you cannot always control it. It just happens. That's likely what caused Michael to misjudge braking zones as often as he did, causing him to run into guys in front of him. His brain was likely feeling the right time to brake was in accordance to the confines and limitations/capabilities of the tires he ran almost every race of his life on, but with playdough tires that was certainly too deep into corners and in reacting to his mistake, he'd lock up.

Was he the same? not exactly, but he wasn't as for off his former self as it seems you believe.

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:07 pm 
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Posts: 1874
Location: Miami, Florida
Invade wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Invade wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Invade wrote:
Couple of questions...

Given the circumstances it seems people are very impressed with Schumi at Monaco 2012, but in terms of raw pace how good was the lap considering he wasn't that far ahead of his team-mate. I have the same question regarding Hamilton's lap in Korea 2011 - didn't the car just simply have the pace that weekend and Hamilton got the car to where it was fully capable of without anything so special? He had a bigger gap to Button than Schumi did to Rosberg but it's still not utterly dominant. On these occasions, did Rosberg and Button also nail extremely fine laps, yet their teammates put in something special? Or are these laps not so impressive on raw pace, and being heralded due to circumstances such as Schumacher being an old past prime racer in his 40s or Red Bull being typically unstoppable in qualifying, adding to a sort of myth and illusion which can make the lap seem more impressive?

It seems you and Exideron don’t quite fully see the most important variable that you point out in your incorrect assessment of Micchael pulling that lap in 2012.

The most crucial thing is that here, unlike with most other drivers we have an actual hard basis for comparison between all 4 drivers you mentioned. Hamilton was teammate to both Button and Rosberg and Hamilton is the key to seeing just how special that lap was. The gap between Hamilton and Button was consistently greater than it was to Rosberg, being as Rosberg and Hamilton were likely among the closest teammates ever in terms of qualifying speed. As such that would mean Rosberg is usually extracting almost everything the car has. However, just because 2 guys drive the same car, it doesn’t mean they drive the same. And if you KNOW Michael’s history, you’d know his setups are completely foreign to other drivers to the point they feel the cars are set up horribly. That weekend Michael was struggling to get his car consistent for the entirety of the lap but would somehow manage to fall behind in a section or two and was simply not as fast as Rosberg. The commentary team was expecting him to be further down the order given his times all weekend but when he came around the last 3 corners it looked fast but no one expected him eclipse even the top 4 positions, much less his teammate.

Some folks think it was more impressive to many of his fans because of his age and nostalgic reasons, but I don’t buy into the whole nonsense about drivers’ skills diminishing as they age and they can’t do it the way they used to mumbo jumbo because it’s simply not true, and Alonso and Raikkonen are proof of that. I stated in another thread several weeks ago how people incorrectly arrive at this opinion, but a place like Monaco where the circuit forces drivers to stay honest “or else” also helps explain that drivers don’t lose speed as they age. At Monaco reflexes and the acuity of the brain is more in the forefront than likely any other track and on that day NO ONE was more acutely focused than Michael and he pushed like hell to achieve that pole lap. To say it wasn’t that impressive is to either be kidding oneself or cheating the man out of a seriously impressive performance.


He beat his team-mate by a bit and got pole. I asked if Rosberg put in a particularly good lap and yet Schumacher bested it, or was Rosberg's lap just a solid lap? It was swings and roundabouts between Hamilton and Rosberg in qualifying. They both often put in great laps but often not at the same time.

Say whaaaaaattt??!?!?!

They were so close one got pole by mere hundredths and even thousandths!
What you guys need to do is quit listening to the commentators saying the gaps are as large as they imply. They're simply not.

For a real world comparison, you can't even blink in the time that separates these guys.

As for Rosberg's lap being that good in 2012, let's see… Mercedes was a distant fifth to Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren and Lotus that season and Nico out-qualified them at Monaco and his car was the better set up one for the team all weekend. So no Rosberg's lap wasn't solid, it was excellent.

The following season Rosberg got Pole in a car which the team finally got the aero going in the right direction. The 2012 car was heavily flawed and unstable but the 2013 car was a title challenger and Nico's pole lap was 1.13.876 whereas Michael's lap in a much more unstable car was 1.14.301. That's less than half a second difference. Says a whole lot about Michael's lap.


F1_Ernie wrote:
Schumacher was never the same driver at 41, he would not be anywhere near his best. It's not mumbo jumbo but true in near enough any sport. Using Kimi as a example isn't really great either, his been using up a seat for years now. Alonso at 36 is alot different to Schumacher at 41 with a 3 year gap.

Racing drivers are not the same as other "athletes" and their abilities do not wain over time the way athletes who play physical sports (don't be smarty pasts guys) do because in those other sports the body is wearing down. Drivers' bodies do not wear down anywhere near to the level of those guys. If anything Alonso and Hamilton are proof that drivers actually get better with age because they exercise and refine the most crucial component of a driver and that's their brain. Keep in mind that today drivers use simulators constantly (less Kimi - which would likely help him squeeze a bit more speed) so their brains and entire skills sets remain sharp and don' drop off.


They often beat each other by several tenths, which has made it rather awkward for me to judge their qualifying efforts. They weren't that close as often as you might think over any given weekend. They were close on average when taking into account all the weekends.

Apparently Lewis' pole lap at Korea 2011 is a contender for being particularly outstanding on the basis that it was the only non Red Bull pole of the season, but how was the car for that particular weekend?

How was the Mercedes for the 2012 Monaco weekend - was it the 5th best, or was it a car worthy of pole and always with a fair old chance of being put on pole?

Lewis' lap in Korea was superb, but the one thing you seem to have forgotten that for all their dominating greatness, the Red Bulls were actually among the slowest cars in a straight line and Korea had 2 long straights where the McLarens were EASILY several KPH/MPH faster. McLaren set their cars up to take advantage of their straight line advantage but also managed to set their cars up quite well which is why both drivers did exceptionally well in qualifying. But if you want proof of Hamilton's brilliance that day, go look at his Q2 time!!! :nod:

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:13 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Lewis' lap in Korea was superb, but the one thing you seem to have forgotten that for all their dominating greatness, the Red Bulls were actually among the slowest cars in a straight line and Korea had 2 long straights where the McLarens were EASILY several KPH/MPH faster. McLaren set their cars up to take advantage of their straight line advantage but also managed to set their cars up quite well which is why both drivers did exceptionally well in qualifying. But if you want proof of Hamilton's brilliance that day, go look at his Q2 time!!! :nod:


I didn't realise I was forgetting so much, but that's indeed why I question just how outstanding it might be, trying to determine if it was a great lap (which are rare but not super rare) or something particularly outstanding or unusual. It was certainly unusual given the trend of the season in terms of results but given the weekend and the scenerio, the McLaren was put where it belongs, and though Hamilton's gap to Button is substantial it doesn't immediately leap out to me as one of those truly special and rare laps - but maybe it is?

Same thoughts for Monaco 2012 - both the Mercs are up there and the gap, though substantial, isn't outlandish. When both cars are up there I make the assumption that on the weekend the car was very fit for the task. Much like you have argued that Rosberg's lap in 2012 Monaco was excellent and Schumacher surpassed even that splendid effort from Rosberg, would you say the same for Button at Korea 2011? Is Button being consistently behind Hamilton exceptional on on his part?


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