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Which of these fine pilots is the best?
Valtteri Bottas 19%  19%  [ 11 ]
Nico Rosberg 81%  81%  [ 48 ]
Total votes : 59
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 3:12 am 
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kleefton wrote:
When I think of Rosberg, I am reminded of a very technically savvy driver, a driver that will beat you with knowledge rather than pure talent.

Bottas might have more natural speed than Nico, but I don't think he is nearly as technically savvy.

Rosberg was definitely more talented than Bottas is. Rosberg’s best qualifying laps were absolutely insane and he delivered several genius hot laps each season. Bottas doesn’t have the same raw speed Rosberg did.

I watched them both closely when they were driving for Williams too. Rosberg impressed me more with weaker Williams cars. You could see Rosberg’s big talent as early as Bahrain 2006. He crashed on the first lap, then overtook his way to 7th place and set fastest lap in the process. His race pace in clean air was faster than Alonso.

Your claim about how Rosberg was “more hard work and less talent” is only true if you compare him to Hamilton. It definitely isn’t true if you compare him to Bottas.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 6:54 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think the stats can be incredibly misleading. Romberg could afford to stop for a toilet break halfway through his lap and still end up on the front row, while Bottas has never had that luxury. It’s much easier to look good when your car is in an entirely different formula. When Romberg was in the Merc his he had an LMP1 to everybody else’s LMP2.

Why do people act like Rosberg’s career began in 2014.

He was teammates with Hamilton in 2013 when Mercedes had the 2nd-3rd best car and ran him very close.

because he was rarely regarded as a special talent before then. He's always been quick and viewed as a good qualifier, but half the time you'd forget he was even in any races because he rarely did anything except go around in circles.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:01 am 
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I don't think I will vote here yet. It is really hard to decide between these 2 and I don't think we've had enough time to fairly compare them. Give Bottas at least this season. Rosberg had been with Mercedes since 2010. And Hamilton came in 2013 and beat him instantly when Rosberg was with his 4th year with the team, although maybe not by that much. Then the following 2 years, although bad luck was heavily the reason, Rosberg was further behind Hamilton in the championship than Bottas was behind Hamilton in his first season. And when you factor in that Mercedes was no longer totally dominant, I think that will have taken a fair number of points off Bottas. This didn't happen to Rosberg 2014 - 2016. Qualifying does make a difference and the abount of times where Bottas was only a few hundredths of a second off the front row just shows how much easier Rosberg had it to vertically always make it onto the front row. And also therefore, making it easier in the race. I remember quite a few weekends where Hamilton or Rosberg would make a mistake in Q3 and still get 1-2. I remember a time where they both locked up in a wet session and ran off track and still had 1-2. Bottas just hasn't had this luck.

I can certainly agree that Rosberg has more aggression, which often does pay off. But to me I see almost as many disadvantages to being like this. At least the way Rosberg was. He's been in trouble I think several times over the last season, or at leased been partly responsible for a clash. Although there was no obvious driver to blame from the stewards verdict, I think that in Spain 2016, both Hamilton and Rosberg did something wrong. Hamilton was too optimistic and Rosberg was certainly was too aggressive. Bottas just doesn't seem to be like this and hasn't been deemed responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement in any race in his career. I can think of several occasions where Bottas lacks aggression, but lacking this doesn't make him loose out massively if that makes sense.

In Brazil last year, he could have defended Vettel better into the first corner. That was true. 2nd wasn't a terrible result but he just kept calm and didn't risk attempting an overtake. For all we know, from what sometimes happened, overtakes can end badly. Then in Bahrain this year, I can agree with what someone said on this thread, other drivers may have had more of a go than Bottas. But I do think Bottas looked to try but just ran out of time. Again, 2nd isn't that bad. Even in Spain, I agree that Bottas could have been a tiny bit more defensive towards Vettel. But he managed to do a fast enough 2 laps when Vettel had pitted that would have jumped him if his stop wasn't 1.4 seconds slower than vettel's. I think that given how good Bottas usually is at defending later in the race, he will likely have been able to manage to keep Vettel behind even if Vettel didn't pit again. There are loads of occations I can think of where Bottas has managed to keep faster cars behind him. Other than maybe into the first corner at the start, I have to say defending is a strong point for Bottas. Probably better than Rosberg here. At least does it in a much cleaner way. The other thing I can say about Bottas is that he just keeps out of trouble. It has been over 2 full years now since he last got any penalty points. And even in nearly 3 years, I think he's only had 2 at max if I am correct. No other driver has gone this long in terms of keeping out of trouble.

Now Mercedes are not as dominant as they were and Bottas seems to have upped his game this year by the look of it, I'm not sure Rosberg would be doing any better really. The tension between him and Hamilton made things worse to me. They both had moments that would affect the team really badly now compared to in their dominant era. Bottas and Hamilton just don't have these. They both show a lot of respect for each other. And after Baku, when I saw Hamilton's interview on Channel 4, the comments he made about Bottas were very interesting. He basically had realised that Bottas would have been ahead of him in the championship if he didn't have that puncture. And he clearly showed that he knew that Bottas was doing a pretty solid job (quite possibly better than him) and he hadn't quite done as well as he should. Again, I think Bottas is doing the job he needs to in this team by performing when his team mate isn't. in the last 3 races, Bottas will have got the best possible team result if it wasn't for misfortune in China and Baku. And if things had just gone slightly differently in Bahrain, he may have won rather than just being a fraction of a second behind the winner. I think that these results show he's doing enough for Mercedes like Rosberg did. In terms of who is a better driver, it is too close for me to decide. But I am leaning towards Bottas I think. Will wait and see.


So I do think Bottas could be better than he is. (a bit more agressive and possibly 1 lap pace). But I see plenty of benifits to being a catious driver especially if he doing his job in this team. He keeps out of trouble and gets the car home. Australia was the only bad weekend. But lets remember Hamilton basically did the same in Monaco last year. Failed to perform in qualifying on a track that is ridiculously hard to overtake on. If we forgive Hamilton, we should forgive Bottas. He's since turned around for sure.





So invade, If you are interested in someone making a case for why they may have votes Bottas, I may possible have some of the reasons. But as I said, I haven't voted yet, but may well go for Bottas at some point if he keeps up his performance this year. I think my reasoning is a fair way to show that some may think Bottas is better. It completely depends on how you mean by a better driver. As I said, I think Bottas may be the better driver for the team in the situation it is now in, but on the whole, I don't yet really know who I would say is better.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:03 am 
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Zoue wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think the stats can be incredibly misleading. Romberg could afford to stop for a toilet break halfway through his lap and still end up on the front row, while Bottas has never had that luxury. It’s much easier to look good when your car is in an entirely different formula. When Romberg was in the Merc his he had an LMP1 to everybody else’s LMP2.

Why do people act like Rosberg’s career began in 2014.

He was teammates with Hamilton in 2013 when Mercedes had the 2nd-3rd best car and ran him very close.

because he was rarely regarded as a special talent before then. He's always been quick and viewed as a good qualifier, but half the time you'd forget he was even in any races because he rarely did anything except go around in circles.


I don't think Rosberg did that much to distinguish himself before 2014. Obviously there were occasional flashes but nothing more than we see from other midfield driver. I think he rose to the occasion so to speak and made the best out of the talent he had.

To answer the question posed I think right now you'd have to rate Rosberg ahead of Bottas. That could change though. Bottas should basically be neck and neck with Hamilton at this stage. I've been majorly impressed with him this season so far.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:09 am 
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A couple of thoughts then...

In a sense the comparison is unfair, as it's easy to opt to compare Bottas now, who might not have reached his peak, to what is now a completed Rosberg career, which saw him see through years of experience and learning alongside Michael Schumacher and then Lewis Hamilton. It was through such experience that Nico was able to push himself further, and in no small part due to his dogged tenacity as a competitor. This gives him an edge over Bottas for now, for Rosberg had to fight tooth and nail for... for his respect almost... and was able to find a ruthlessness and competitive edge which garnered him a commanding cache within the Mercedes team. Bottas, I have to assume, is in the middle of his maturation process, with 2018 being the acid test and not 2017, which was a baptism by fire but came with mitigating circumstances. There can be no excuse in 2018, and so far he is up to the mark.

I'd say Rosberg was a slightly better qualifier and had more consistent race pace and was more aggressive behind the wheel. Bottas' racecraft is cleaner but less bold, and his attitude lacks the fight and defiance of Rosberg. However, Bottas is warming into the task, and many of us might look back rather differently when 2018 ends, depending on what Bottas can continue to show now that he's bedded in at Mercedes. Bottas' pace so far in 2018 has been good, but has Hamilton been at the top of his game, and does Bottas have the ultimate pace to consistently be the equal of either Hamilton or Vettel when they are on song? Usually, at least one of them is, and the result tends to be that Bottas is squeezed out. Rosberg, judging by his qualifying battle with Hamilton, would have held his own on many occasions. This then is about ultimate pace rather than consistency of pace. Rosberg had the ability to be really on it for great pole position potential.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:16 am 
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Anyway, Rosberg couldn't beat Hamilton if he wasn't helped by reliability, and we are seeing the same with Bottas.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:32 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Anyway, Rosberg couldn't beat Hamilton if he wasn't helped by reliability, and we are seeing the same with Bottas.


Not this season.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:37 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
kleefton wrote:
When I think of Rosberg, I am reminded of a very technically savvy driver, a driver that will beat you with knowledge rather than pure talent.

Bottas might have more natural speed than Nico, but I don't think he is nearly as technically savvy.

Rosberg was definitely more talented than Bottas is. Rosberg’s best qualifying laps were absolutely insane and he delivered several genius hot laps each season. Bottas doesn’t have the same raw speed Rosberg did.

I watched them both closely when they were driving for Williams too. Rosberg impressed me more with weaker Williams cars. You could see Rosberg’s big talent as early as Bahrain 2006. He crashed on the first lap, then overtook his way to 7th place and set fastest lap in the process. His race pace in clean air was faster than Alonso.

Your claim about how Rosberg was “more hard work and less talent” is only true if you compare him to Hamilton. It definitely isn’t true if you compare him to Bottas.


I don't see it that way. His early success, even against Michael was based on his ability to set up the car and qualify well. He would outqualify Michael but was often outclassed in the races, just like he was often outclassed by Hamilton in the races even when he was able to outqualify him. To me, Bottas is already closer to Hamilton's race pace in his second year that Rosberg was in his 2nd year or 3rd year with Hamilton. He improved his race craft and race pace and was very close to Hamilton in 2016, but prior to that, let's be fair, many times Hamilton would toy with him on race day. Yes, for sure he had some good days at Williams and missed out on a couple of wins, but you have to recognize that the field was tighter back then, and Bottas never had a similar car prior to joining Merc.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 3:29 pm 
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There were many different Nico’s. 2013 and 2nd half of 2015 Nico levels, Bottas has got no where near thus far. Although 2013 Nico was already at Mercedes whilst Bottas had to join Hamiltons team for his first year.

He has been superior to the Nico of first half 2015. Probably overall, Bottas has been around the level of 2016 Nico and slightly below 2014 Nico.

Bottas’ form in 2018 is up with peak Nico though that is starting to slip ever so slightly of late. We need to see more to truly judge. Nico had the luxury of having a bad weekend and coming at worst 2nd or even still winning. He also doesn’t have the luxury to just lead at the first corner to basically guarantee the win.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:06 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Yes, for sure he had some good days at Williams and missed out on a couple of wins, but you have to recognize that the field was tighter back then, and Bottas never had a similar car prior to joining Merc.

The 2014 Williams was much better than any Williams Rosberg drove. Ricciardo won 3 races that year. Williams was good enough to collect a win if Mercedes failed, but Bottas couldn't take advantage.

Rosberg's 2009 was better than any individual season from Bottas.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:00 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Yes, for sure he had some good days at Williams and missed out on a couple of wins, but you have to recognize that the field was tighter back then, and Bottas never had a similar car prior to joining Merc.

The 2014 Williams was much better than any Williams Rosberg drove. Ricciardo won 3 races that year. Williams was good enough to collect a win if Mercedes failed, but Bottas couldn't take advantage.

Rosberg's 2009 was better than any individual season from Bottas.


That is a poor argument. Mercedes failed in 3 races only.

If Mercedes dropped the ball in Austria, Germany, AD, Hungary (without SC), Monza, Russia, Brazil or Silverstone - then Williams and Bottas would have had race wins. It was pot luck how that worked out and everything fell for Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:07 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
There were many different Nico’s. 2013 and 2nd half of 2015 Nico levels, Bottas has got no where near thus far. Although 2013 Nico was already at Mercedes whilst Bottas had to join Hamiltons team for his first year.

He has been superior to the Nico of first half 2015. Probably overall, Bottas has been around the level of 2016 Nico and slightly below 2014 Nico.

Bottas’ form in 2018 is up with peak Nico though that is starting to slip ever so slightly of late. We need to see more to truly judge. Nico had the luxury of having a bad weekend and coming at worst 2nd or even still winning. He also doesn’t have the luxury to just lead at the first corner to basically guarantee the win.


Bottas '18 form has not been up, it's just Hamilton form has been down Bottas has been himself.


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Anyway, Rosberg couldn't beat Hamilton if he wasn't helped by reliability, and we are seeing the same with Bottas.


Not this season.

I think he meant over a season obviously there were races were Rosberg beat Hamilton fair and square.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 1:11 am 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Yes, for sure he had some good days at Williams and missed out on a couple of wins, but you have to recognize that the field was tighter back then, and Bottas never had a similar car prior to joining Merc.

The 2014 Williams was much better than any Williams Rosberg drove. Ricciardo won 3 races that year. Williams was good enough to collect a win if Mercedes failed, but Bottas couldn't take advantage.

Rosberg's 2009 was better than any individual season from Bottas.


That is a poor argument. Mercedes failed in 3 races only.

If Mercedes dropped the ball in Austria, Germany, AD, Hungary (without SC), Monza, Russia, Brazil or Silverstone - then Williams and Bottas would have had race wins. It was pot luck how that worked out and everything fell for Ricciardo.


It's only a poor argument for Hungary as the Williams was awful there but there was nothing stopping Bottas winning in Canada and Spa but Ricciardo. The Williams was quicker in Canada and close enough in Spa to do what Dan did but he couldn't. Just like he couldn't be the man to nab the pole when it was on offer but Massa could.

Only his 2nd year though so I wouldn't be too harsh but he had as much pot luck chance as Dan did in Canada and Spa.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:01 am 
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Bottas did better than Massa in qualifying, but in who was ahead when the race finished, it was even. Bottas scored more points though - qualifying better probably made the difference there.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Bottas had overheating problems in Canada 2014. He was ahead of Ricciardo at 50% distance and as quick as him, then a slow pit stop allowed Ricciardo to over cut him, shortly after Bottas overheated and lost 1.5 seconds per lap and multiple positions.

Spa, he qualified 5th due to Williams being terrible in the rain, he then spent 2/3 of the race being held up by Vettel. But the Red Bull was just quicker anyway. He only got Vettel because he had to make an extra stop.

Having said that, Williams was the clear 2nd best car on many tracks. Others it was close with Red Bull. Some Red Bull were better. Mercedes did not drop the ball on a Williams track which were about half the races.

The Williams was not a strong car at all at the start of the year, up until Canada there best 3 finishes across both drivers were 5th,5th and 7th. Austria, race 8 was the first time a Williams finished ahead of a Red Bull.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:48 am 
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Johnson wrote:
The Williams was not a strong car at all at the start of the year, up until Canada there best 3 finishes across both drivers were 5th,5th and 7th. Austria, race 8 was the first time a Williams finished ahead of a Red Bull.

That's assuming the drivers were delivering the maximum the car was capable of. In Australia for example Bottas was the fastest non-Mercedes on track, and probably should have taken a podium if he hadn't hit the wall.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Yes, that is before we delve into driver talent. But Massa, who is a decent benchmark was only able to finish ahead of a Red Bull on 4-5 occasions all year. 2of which were lucky and Vettel was off form that year too.

Bottas was able to mix it with Ricciardo, Massa wasn’t really. Ahead when both finished.
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Bottas was unfortunate not to pick up a “lucky” race win in 2014.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Massa had rotten luck that year, he had 6 races ruined through no fault of his own and one 50-50 with K-Mag in Germany so 7 races altogether he couldn't do much better.

Oz,Chn,Can,Gbr,Ger,Spa and Rus.

The Williams was better than the RB across the season, Mercedes even felt it was better than them on some tracks, so Dan coming out on top of Bottas is still impressive.

I can't find any mention of overheating in Canada, I remember him being slow and letting Massa past but Massa blew it by not pressing his DRS against Seb and the Williams was notoriously slick in a straight line so getting held up by an underpowered Red Bull in Spa doesn't sound like much of an obstacle on that track and once Massa had the debris removed he was consistently quicker and ended up quicker on more laps than Bottas was despite having debris stuck in his front wing for the first two thirds of the race.

I still see no reason why he couldn't win Canada or Spa tbh.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Bottas had a great opportunity to win in Canada. In fact, Massa should have probably won that race but he choked.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:02 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Yes, that is before we delve into driver talent. But Massa, who is a decent benchmark was only able to finish ahead of a Red Bull on 4-5 occasions all year. 2of which were lucky and Vettel was off form that year too.

Massa had an accident with Kobayashi in Australia, Perez in Canada, Raikkonen in Silverstone, Magnussen in Germany, car problem in Russia qualifying, a damaged floor from debris in Belgium, and a 40 second pit stop in China.

In terms of raw speed he barely was any slower than Bottas that year, and regularly competing with Ricciardo.

Massa was actually faster than Vettel for most of 2014. Felipe outqualified Seb 10-9 that season.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
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Rosberg but the margin isn't quite as big as some say here.

Rosberg is a unique character in that while he's always pushing close to the limits of what a car can do, the performance of the guy in the other car can motivate him to push just that much further and squeeze that teeny bit more here and there to try and match and beat the other guy. With Michael it was less so because while he was trying to be the top guy, he was also learning and absorbing a great deal from the meister. With Hamilton, he was immediately being out-edged consistently initially, but it ate away at him and he saought to refocus and fight even harder and was really close to Hamilton consistently in a way he'd never been able to before in his career. Then he began to focus a bit more on qualifying and worked his tail off to develop into a supreme qualifier.

Bottas on the other hand simply believes he is good enough and just has to drive within himself and his capabilities and feels that if he does everything right, he can be the top finisher for his team. And as we've witnessed, sometimes he leaves a hair more on the table as he'd rather weigh on the side of caution and get the assured points rather than push the envelope and go wheel to wheel.

Rosberg was a top notch qualifier before Hamilton joined Mercedes.

He was very good with a few top notch performances, but to say he was "top notch" in general is a bit of a stretch.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:42 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Rosberg but the margin isn't quite as big as some say here.

Rosberg is a unique character in that while he's always pushing close to the limits of what a car can do, the performance of the guy in the other car can motivate him to push just that much further and squeeze that teeny bit more here and there to try and match and beat the other guy. With Michael it was less so because while he was trying to be the top guy, he was also learning and absorbing a great deal from the meister. With Hamilton, he was immediately being out-edged consistently initially, but it ate away at him and he saought to refocus and fight even harder and was really close to Hamilton consistently in a way he'd never been able to before in his career. Then he began to focus a bit more on qualifying and worked his tail off to develop into a supreme qualifier.

Bottas on the other hand simply believes he is good enough and just has to drive within himself and his capabilities and feels that if he does everything right, he can be the top finisher for his team. And as we've witnessed, sometimes he leaves a hair more on the table as he'd rather weigh on the side of caution and get the assured points rather than push the envelope and go wheel to wheel.

Rosberg was a top notch qualifier before Hamilton joined Mercedes.

He was very good with a few top notch performances, but to say he was "top notch" in general is a bit of a stretch.

This comes from former teammates Alex Wurz, who held his own against the likes of Gerhard Berger and Jean Alesi, and a 7 times world champion called Michael Schumacher.

When going to Mercedes it was seen as one area were Hamilton would be challenged by Rosberg.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:01 pm 
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The Williams was the better car over the season I ageee, im just referring to those 3 races.

Spa - the Red Bull was the fastest car in a straight line. They ran a tiny wing. Vettel also stopped Rosberg winning by holding him up (after he changed his nose cone and was up to full speed).

Canada - Bottas was ahead of Ricciardo until Williams pitted him (attempting to undercut Vettel) and put him out directly behind a chain of 4 cars and he lost lots of places. Hopeless strategy. His race was done then. He then overheated in the closing stages.

Massa could have won Canada but it was more due to him running in clean air for 20 laps of the race, Williams realised FI were 1 stopping Andy stayed out whilst everybody else was bottled up behind Perez who was 1 stopping. This meant the Red Bulls could not use there new tyre pace and gave Massa 10 lap fresher tyres for the end.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Rosberg is retired, Bottas isn't. So obviously Bottas is the better talent.

Remember, in F1 you're only as good as your last performance. If Enzo were still alive, he would put everyone straight on this.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:40 pm 
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MB-BOB wrote:
Rosberg is retired, Bottas isn't. So obviously Bottas is the better talent.

Remember, in F1 you're only as good as your last performance. If Enzo were still alive, he would put everyone straight on this.


In Rosberg's last performance he won the World Championship. That seems better than 5th in Monaco.

I actually think its closer than some are making out here - I am nto sure who I would put ahead. I suspect Rosberg is faster over one lap, but Bottas is probably the better racer.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Herb wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Rosberg is retired, Bottas isn't. So obviously Bottas is the better talent.

Remember, in F1 you're only as good as your last performance. If Enzo were still alive, he would put everyone straight on this.


In Rosberg's last performance he won the World Championship. That seems better than 5th in Monaco.

I actually think its closer than some are making out here - I am nto sure who I would put ahead. I suspect Rosberg is faster over one lap, but Bottas is probably the better racer.


No this has to be a joke, Bottas the better racer.

Except the Mercedes is dominant Bottas is non existent in the race.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Herb wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Rosberg is retired, Bottas isn't. So obviously Bottas is the better talent.

Remember, in F1 you're only as good as your last performance. If Enzo were still alive, he would put everyone straight on this.


In Rosberg's last performance he won the World Championship. That seems better than 5th in Monaco.

I actually think its closer than some are making out here - I am nto sure who I would put ahead. I suspect Rosberg is faster over one lap, but Bottas is probably the better racer.


No this has to be a joke, Bottas the better racer.

Except the Mercedes is dominant Bottas is non existent in the race.


No joke, just my opinion. I would trust Bottas a lot more in wheel to wheel racing than Rosberg.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Rockie wrote:

Except the Mercedes is dominant Bottas is non existent in the race.


...AND without Mercedes, Rosberg would never have won a championship.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:43 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Herb wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Rosberg is retired, Bottas isn't. So obviously Bottas is the better talent.

Remember, in F1 you're only as good as your last performance. If Enzo were still alive, he would put everyone straight on this.


In Rosberg's last performance he won the World Championship. That seems better than 5th in Monaco.

I actually think its closer than some are making out here - I am nto sure who I would put ahead. I suspect Rosberg is faster over one lap, but Bottas is probably the better racer.


No this has to be a joke, Bottas the better racer.

Except the Mercedes is dominant Bottas is non existent in the race.

He wasn't none existent in Bahrain, China and Baku this year.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:56 pm 
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MB-BOB wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Except the Mercedes is dominant Bottas is non existent in the race.


...AND without Mercedes, Rosberg would never have won a championship.


Just like every other driver that has won a title, your point being?


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Herb wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Rosberg is retired, Bottas isn't. So obviously Bottas is the better talent.

Remember, in F1 you're only as good as your last performance. If Enzo were still alive, he would put everyone straight on this.


In Rosberg's last performance he won the World Championship. That seems better than 5th in Monaco.

I actually think its closer than some are making out here - I am nto sure who I would put ahead. I suspect Rosberg is faster over one lap, but Bottas is probably the better racer.


No this has to be a joke, Bottas the better racer.

Except the Mercedes is dominant Bottas is non existent in the race.

He wasn't none existent in Bahrain, China and Baku this year.


Can give you China, in Bahrain he got lucky with the strategy but was slow, he could not overtake Vettel whose tyres were shot.

Baku don't get me started he was disastrously slow and again the safety car played into his hands.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:01 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Except the Mercedes is dominant Bottas is non existent in the race.


...AND without Mercedes, Rosberg would never have won a championship.


Just like every other driver that has won a title, your point being?

don't believe every driver who has won a title would never have done it without Mercedes ;)


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Herb wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Herb wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Rosberg is retired, Bottas isn't. So obviously Bottas is the better talent.

Remember, in F1 you're only as good as your last performance. If Enzo were still alive, he would put everyone straight on this.


In Rosberg's last performance he won the World Championship. That seems better than 5th in Monaco.

I actually think its closer than some are making out here - I am nto sure who I would put ahead. I suspect Rosberg is faster over one lap, but Bottas is probably the better racer.


No this has to be a joke, Bottas the better racer.

Except the Mercedes is dominant Bottas is non existent in the race.


No joke, just my opinion. I would trust Bottas a lot more in wheel to wheel racing than Rosberg.


Mostly through their F1 careers, they both seemed to me to be similar in the way they drove - not taking many risks.
It's difficult if you are team mates with Hamiton. Toto tells them to avoid contact, but if one of them can get the other to take on almost all the responsibility for that, then that works in his favour. You may have to take risks in some circumstances. Bottas had a situation with Raikkonnen where he had to settle scores to show he wasn't going to be pushed around.

Bahrain 2016. Rosberg overtakes Hamilton into Turn one, then slows to prevent Hamilton from coming back at him out of the corner. Bottas misreads the situation and hits Hamilton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFG0KEsscOU


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:46 pm 
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Also Rosberg got a whole lot better when he had acces to Hamiltons data and continued guidence over the radio.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:01 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Also Rosberg got a whole lot better when he had acces to Hamiltons data and continued guidence over the radio.

This was proven to be nonsense at the time and it's still nonsense. When they stopped sharing data Rosberg was exactly as competative as when they were sharing data.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:11 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Also Rosberg got a whole lot better when he had acces to Hamiltons data and continued guidence over the radio.

This was proven to be nonsense at the time and it's still nonsense. When they stopped sharing data Rosberg was exactly as competative as when they were sharing data.


When did they stop sharing data out of interest?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:11 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Also Rosberg got a whole lot better when he had acces to Hamiltons data and continued guidence over the radio.

This was proven to be nonsense at the time and it's still nonsense. When they stopped sharing data Rosberg was exactly as competative as when they were sharing data.


When did they stop sharing data out of interest?

I don’t know when they stopped sharing data, but radio ban was introduced midway 2014, and it didn’t change the competitive pecking order between them that season. Rosberg remained quicker in qualifying and Hamilton remained quicker in the race.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:31 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Also Rosberg got a whole lot better when he had acces to Hamiltons data and continued guidence over the radio.

This was proven to be nonsense at the time and it's still nonsense. When they stopped sharing data Rosberg was exactly as competative as when they were sharing data.


When did they stop sharing data out of interest?

I thought when the Mercedes battle got nasty Merc stopped it but I can't find anything on it from the time so I'm most likely thinking of the radio ban.

I distinctly remember people on here being happy at the news because it was believed by them that Rosberg was benefiting but it did literally nothing to the competitiveness between them. There was never even any evidence for it in the first place other than the theories of people posting on the forum, but its still brought up now as though it's fact that Nico was benefiting from it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:50 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I thought when the Mercedes battle got nasty Merc stopped it but I can't find anything on it from the time so I'm most likely thinking of the radio ban.

I distinctly remember people on here being happy at the news because it was believed by them that Rosberg was benefiting but it did literally nothing to the competitiveness between them. There was never even any evidence for it in the first place other than the theories of people posting on the forum, but its still brought up now as though it's fact that Nico was benefiting from it.

I don't think there's any doubt that Rosberg was getting a lot more radio coaching than Hamilton - such (in)famous bits as 'driving style advice, please' or being told to take corner X in Y gear were obvious motivators for the ban, and Rosberg was frequently on the receiving end. However, what I think people were missing is that Rosberg didn't need all that coaching, he was just taking advantage of it because it was there.

The only concrete instance I can remember of Rosberg unquestionably benefiting from Hamilton's data more than normal teammate data sharing is the much-ballyhooed 'fuel dossier' that he was supplied after China 2014. The difference before and after with fuel usage was quite noticeable, with him coming very close to matching Hamilton's fuel usage following the race.

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