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Which of these fine pilots is the best?
Valtteri Bottas 19%  19%  [ 11 ]
Nico Rosberg 81%  81%  [ 48 ]
Total votes : 59
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:56 am 
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A radio ban isn't exactly a massive loss though. They was still sharing data in the garage, I'm sure I remember Hamilton constantly moaning about it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:14 am 
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They never stopped sharing data and the radio-ban was in for only a few races or half a season.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:29 am 
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Warheart01 wrote:
They never stopped sharing data and the radio-ban was in for only a few races or half a season.

And you have no evidence that either benefited Rosberg. We have as much reason to believe that they benefited Hamilton in the teammate battle.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:34 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
They never stopped sharing data and the radio-ban was in for only a few races or half a season.

And you have no evidence that either benefited Rosberg. We have as much reason to believe that they benefited Hamilton in the teammate battle.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:12 am 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
They never stopped sharing data and the radio-ban was in for only a few races or half a season.

And you have no evidence that either benefited Rosberg. We have as much reason to believe that they benefited Hamilton in the teammate battle.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Good point, I hadn't considered that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
They never stopped sharing data and the radio-ban was in for only a few races or half a season.

And you have no evidence that either benefited Rosberg. We have as much reason to believe that they benefited Hamilton in the teammate battle.


Hamilton did have the advantage IMO that he is a more versatile driver, and can drive a car hard when it is set up various ways. Rosberg tends to work toward getting the car to suit his abilities. Therefore IMO it is easier for Hamilton to benefit from Rosberg's data, because he is more likely to be able to drive a car with that setup, than Rosberg trying to use Hamilton's setup.

Hamilton did admit once to just giving up at trying to get his car set up how he wanted, and copying Rosberg's setup.
When Rosberg was getting better starts, the team adopted Rosberg's setup for both cars.

IMO Rosberg has a very technical background and goes into the science of setting a car up in great depth. He would use any data he could make use of, to improve his performance - both his own and Hamilton's. It's in the teams interest for both of them to do that. Both of their engineers will be doing that all the time.

Bottas also seems to be good at analysing how the car is working. IMO Bottas has been good at identifying the problems with the Mercedes at the start of the last 2 years and finding ways to improve the tyre use - then, once they get the car sorted, Hamilton pulls a bigger gap to Bottas.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:23 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Also Rosberg got a whole lot better when he had acces to Hamiltons data and continued guidence over the radio.

This was proven to be nonsense at the time and it's still nonsense. When they stopped sharing data Rosberg was exactly as competative as when they were sharing data.


When did they stop sharing data out of interest?

I don’t know when they stopped sharing data, but radio ban was introduced midway 2014, and it didn’t change the competitive pecking order between them that season. Rosberg remained quicker in qualifying and Hamilton remained quicker in the race.


That doesn't seem right to me, way too early. All the instances of "radio ban" madness I can remember are from 2016. Such as Button having to retire the car as they couldn't tell him what to do, Rosberg getting a time penalty in Silverstone 2016 because they told him to change a gearbox setting and Hamilton going around in a faulty engine mode for the majority of the race in Baku 2016 without the team able to tell him.

It came in late 2015 or 2016 to my memory.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Also Rosberg got a whole lot better when he had acces to Hamiltons data and continued guidence over the radio.

This was proven to be nonsense at the time and it's still nonsense. When they stopped sharing data Rosberg was exactly as competative as when they were sharing data.


When did they stop sharing data out of interest?

I don’t know when they stopped sharing data, but radio ban was introduced midway 2014, and it didn’t change the competitive pecking order between them that season. Rosberg remained quicker in qualifying and Hamilton remained quicker in the race.


That doesn't seem right to me, way too early. All the instances of "radio ban" madness I can remember are from 2016. Such as Button having to retire the car as they couldn't tell him what to do, Rosberg getting a time penalty in Silverstone 2016 because they told him to change a gearbox setting and Hamilton going around in a faulty engine mode for the majority of the race in Baku 2016 without the team able to tell him.

It came in late 2015 or 2016 to my memory.


Came in at start of the 2016 season and was dropped after the Hungarian GP that year following Button's issue.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/12550 ... -f1-lifted


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Courtesy of Marklar from Autosport forums

-----------------------------------------
Rosberg wins as Hamilton team mate
-----------------------------------------
Monaco 2013

Britian 2013 – Hamilton gets puncture when in 1st, Rosberg running 3rd at the time

--------------------------------------------

Australia 2014 – Hamilton engine issue from pole on warm up lap

Monaco 2014 – Hamilton “pole” lap controversially blocked by yellow flags brought out by Nico

Austria 2014 – Hamilton starts P9 after "pole" lap time deleted for running wide over track limits. Then spins on 2nd run.

Germany 2014 – Hamilton starts P20 after brake failure in qualifying.

Brazil 2014 – Hamilton held up by Rosberg the entire race, Hamilton builds enough of a gap to over cut Rosberg and win the race but spins on the in lap.

--------------------------------------------

Spain 2015

Monaco 2015 – Hamilton set to win but pit wall miscalculated VSC pit time and gift Rosberg the win.

Austria 2015

Mexico 2015

Brazil 2015

Abu Dhabi 2015

--------------------------------------------

Australia 2016 – Hamilton makes awful start drops from pole to 5th

Bahrain 2016 – Hamilton makes bad start and drops to 2nd before Bottas hits him and damages his car dropping him to 8th. Bottas receives penalty.

China 2016 – Hamilton starts P20 after engine issues in qualifying

Russia 2016 – Hamilton starts P10 after engine issues in qualifying

Europe 2016 – Hamilton starts P10 after crashing in qualifying

Belgium 2016 – Hamilton starts P20 after engine penalties

Italy 2016 – Hamilton makes an awful starts drops from pole to 6th

Singapore 2016 – Hamilton misses FP2 & FP3 and goes into qualifying completely blind having done no proper laps in night time conditions. FP1 is in day light and useless for setup etc.

Japan 2016

--------------------------------------------
Rosberg "lost" wins / bad luck
--------------------------------------------
Britain 2014 – possibly but Hamilton was catching at 0.5 per lap and only behind because he started P9 after qualifying mix up /mistake in aborting his lap in the wet.

Russia 2015 – Throttle issue

USA 2015 – It was his mistake that lost him it but he did enough to win the race. He was better than Hamilton that day and had the SC wipe out his comfortable lead

Rosberg won 22 races against Hamilton. Hamilton won 31.


Last edited by Johnson on Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:24 pm 
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How many of those 22 races would Bottas have won and would he have won any others that Nico didn’t manage to win?

Thus far, all three of Bottas’ wins against Hamilton have be straight up wins with no problems on Hamiltons side.

Bottas has also had to face Hamilton in a bullet proof car and a large portion of Rosbergs wins involved Hamilton having mechanical issue either in the race or qualifying. Nearly 40% of Rosbergs wins involved Hamilton making a bad start in 2016 with the notoriously unpredictable clutch or Hamilton having some kind of mechanical issues. Bottas has had to face Hamilton with reliability and a proper consistent clutch.

It almost certain that Bottas would take the championship to at least the final round in both 2014 and 2016 given how those seasons panned out in terms of reliability and it being a 2 horse race at every track.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
How many of those 22 races would Bottas have won and would he have won any others that Nico didn’t manage to win?

Thus far, all three of Bottas’ wins against Hamilton have be straight up wins with no problems on Hamiltons side.

Bottas has also had to face Hamilton in a bullet proof car and a large portion of Rosbergs wins involved Hamilton having mechanical issue either in the race or qualifying. Nearly 40% of Rosbergs wins involved Hamilton making a bad start in 2016 with the notoriously unpredictable clutch or Hamilton having some kind of mechanical issues. Bottas has had to face Hamilton with reliability and a proper consistent clutch.

It almost certain that Bottas would take the championship to at least the final round in both 2014 and 2016 given how those seasons panned out in terms of reliability and it being a 2 horse race at every track.


Do you means wins this year over Lewis team mate wise or do you mean wins over all? I can't remember who won Brazil last year now, brain fade sorry, so I think Bottas has won Russia,Austria and AD,right?

Wins
Russia clean
Austria gearbox penalty for Lewis
AD Lewis hasn't won or even beaten a team mate after securing a title I'm sure I read.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:41 pm 
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I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:01 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


Bottas won't have had a chance, he has only had a chance this year as Hamilton has failed to turn up in 3 races.

Rosberg had reliability problems in Abu dhabi '14 it wasn't just race ending, also in '15 Nico made a few mistakes which gave Hamilton the title, He gained momentum before Hamilton won but people like to make it like it was after Hamilton won Nico started winning, in Austin he was leading till the gust of wind where he went off!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


Bottas won't have had a chance, he has only had a chance this year as Hamilton has failed to turn up in 3 races.

Rosberg had reliability problems in Abu dhabi '14 it wasn't just race ending, also in '15 Nico made a few mistakes which gave Hamilton the title, He gained momentum before Hamilton won but people like to make it like it was after Hamilton won Nico started winning, in Austin he was leading till the gust of wind where he went off!


Abu Dhabi 14 Hamilton was clearly already leading. Well if you think the title was given to Hamilton in 15 then god knows what 16 could be called. In 16 most drivers would have got the title race down to the last race if not won it specially after spending so long with the team. I wouldn't be surprised if Bottas would have won it that year, it was a 2 car race and if one car fails then the other would nearly always win, the same car kept failing.

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Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


And in 2015 it was mostly after Lewis had sewn up the title like Bottas in AD last year as well.

I think Japan start was driver error which is why it's clean whereas obviously a gearbox penalty wasn't the drivers fault but on the overall point I agree he would've been in the title hunt in 2014-16 but then so would most midfield and above drivers with a car like that.

It's front row starts and podiums at a minimum as long as you don't bin it outside of Singapore 2015 and Monaco 2016. Then you've got the freebies when Lewis has issues so it would be tricky not to get yourself involved in the title fight although Nico gave it a good effort in 2015. :]

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Herb wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Rosberg is retired, Bottas isn't. So obviously Bottas is the better talent.

Remember, in F1 you're only as good as your last performance. If Enzo were still alive, he would put everyone straight on this.


In Rosberg's last performance he won the World Championship. That seems better than 5th in Monaco.

I actually think its closer than some are making out here - I am nto sure who I would put ahead. I suspect Rosberg is faster over one lap, but Bottas is probably the better racer.


No this has to be a joke, Bottas the better racer.

Except the Mercedes is dominant Bottas is non existent in the race.

He wasn't none existent in Bahrain, China and Baku this year.


Can give you China, in Bahrain he got lucky with the strategy but was slow, he could not overtake Vettel whose tyres were shot.

Baku don't get me started he was disastrously slow and again the safety car played into his hands.

In Bahrain was he not running in second place anyway, Baku is a different slant to the one that said he had a chance of the win even without the SC.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Also Rosberg got a whole lot better when he had acces to Hamiltons data and continued guidence over the radio.

This was proven to be nonsense at the time and it's still nonsense. When they stopped sharing data Rosberg was exactly as competative as when they were sharing data.

It was coaching on the radio that stopped and that seemed to make a difference to Rosberg.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 1st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Also Rosberg got a whole lot better when he had acces to Hamiltons data and continued guidence over the radio.

This was proven to be nonsense at the time and it's still nonsense. When they stopped sharing data Rosberg was exactly as competative as when they were sharing data.


When did they stop sharing data out of interest?

I thought when the Mercedes battle got nasty Merc stopped it but I can't find anything on it from the time so I'm most likely thinking of the radio ban.

I distinctly remember people on here being happy at the news because it was believed by them that Rosberg was benefiting but it did literally nothing to the competitiveness between them. There was never even any evidence for it in the first place other than the theories of people posting on the forum, but its still brought up now as though it's fact that Nico was benefiting from it.

Well Hamilton won far more races than Rosberg under the radio ban.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 1st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:50 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I thought when the Mercedes battle got nasty Merc stopped it but I can't find anything on it from the time so I'm most likely thinking of the radio ban.

I distinctly remember people on here being happy at the news because it was believed by them that Rosberg was benefiting but it did literally nothing to the competitiveness between them. There was never even any evidence for it in the first place other than the theories of people posting on the forum, but its still brought up now as though it's fact that Nico was benefiting from it.

I don't think there's any doubt that Rosberg was getting a lot more radio coaching than Hamilton - such (in)famous bits as 'driving style advice, please' or being told to take corner X in Y gear were obvious motivators for the ban, and Rosberg was frequently on the receiving end. However, what I think people were missing is that Rosberg didn't need all that coaching, he was just taking advantage of it because it was there.

The only concrete instance I can remember of Rosberg unquestionably benefiting from Hamilton's data more than normal teammate data sharing is the much-ballyhooed 'fuel dossier' that he was supplied after China 2014. The difference before and after with fuel usage was quite noticeable, with him coming very close to matching Hamilton's fuel usage following the race.

Another highlight for me was in 2015 when Rosberg was struggling in the wet qualifying in Bahrain, he asked what lines was Hamilton taking but his engineer said he was not permitted to tell him, he then slowed down to let Hamilton catch him and forced Hamilton to pass him under braking for a corner thus compromising Hamilton's lap but Hamilton still got pole, I digress somewhat on the second part. :)

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 1st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
They never stopped sharing data and the radio-ban was in for only a few races or half a season.

I think it ran from the second half of 2014 into the first half of 2015?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 1st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:55 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Also Rosberg got a whole lot better when he had acces to Hamiltons data and continued guidence over the radio.

This was proven to be nonsense at the time and it's still nonsense. When they stopped sharing data Rosberg was exactly as competative as when they were sharing data.


When did they stop sharing data out of interest?

I don’t know when they stopped sharing data, but radio ban was introduced midway 2014, and it didn’t change the competitive pecking order between them that season. Rosberg remained quicker in qualifying and Hamilton remained quicker in the race.


That doesn't seem right to me, way too early. All the instances of "radio ban" madness I can remember are from 2016. Such as Button having to retire the car as they couldn't tell him what to do, Rosberg getting a time penalty in Silverstone 2016 because they told him to change a gearbox setting and Hamilton going around in a faulty engine mode for the majority of the race in Baku 2016 without the team able to tell him.

It came in late 2015 or 2016 to my memory.

No they had modified it by then allowing driver coaching but for some strange reason left in instructing drivers how to sort out problems with the engine etc, something they also decided to ban alongside driver coaching even though nobody had asked for that to be banned.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 1st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:07 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


Bottas won't have had a chance, he has only had a chance this year as Hamilton has failed to turn up in 3 races.

Rosberg had reliability problems in Abu dhabi '14 it wasn't just race ending, also in '15 Nico made a few mistakes which gave Hamilton the title, He gained momentum before Hamilton won but people like to make it like it was after Hamilton won Nico started winning, in Austin he was leading till the gust of wind where he went off!


Nico was only in the title fight in 2014 because at one stage Hamilton had 2 DNFs to his 0.

Then later in the year, Hamilton had had 3 DNFs and 2 races starting way down due to mechanical issue vs Rosberg 1 DNF.

Towards the end of the year it levelled up somewhat with Rosberg DNFing from P2 in Singapore and then again essentially DNFing from P2 in Abu Dhabi.

Bottas or any decent midfield driver would have won at least 4 races in 2014 and 7 in 2016.

The biggest mistake Rosberg made in 2015 was letting Hamilton out qualify him 11-1 in the first 12 races. That is where the title was lost. But I agree with you, the second half of 2015 was Nico's strongest period against Hamilton by far. He won 4 of the last 12 races in 2015, he should have won Russia too, should have won USA and also could have won Silverstone but the rain came at the perfect time for Lewis and saved him. He also had to do Monza on an old engine. All said and done he nearly matched Hamilton for that period. Although a small portion of it was post title which Hamilton appears to be weak with.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:18 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Courtesy of Marklar from Autosport forum
--------------------------------------------
Rosberg "lost" wins / bad luck
--------------------------------------------
Britain 2014 – possibly but Hamilton was catching at 0.5 per lap and only behind because he started P9 after qualifying mix up /mistake in aborting his lap in the wet.

Russia 2015 – Throttle issue

USA 2015 – It was his mistake that lost him it but he did enough to win the race. He was better than Hamilton that day and had the SC wipe out his comfortable lead

Rosberg won 22 races against Hamilton. Hamilton won 31.

This is a ridiculously biased post where every Rosberg won is heavily scrutinized whereas only the very obvious wins gifted to Hamilton are mentioned. He even mentions races where Hamilton had a bad start but doesn’t do the reverse.

Hamilton’s wins against Rosberg:

Hungary 2013 - Rosberg was fastest in Q1 and Q2 but his brake adjuster knob failed in Q3.

Bahrain 2014 - Rosberg was clearly faster than Hamilton but a bad start cost him the lead and the win

Britain 2014 - Rosberg had a 5 second lead before a gradual gearbox failure.

Singapore 2014 - Rosberg car failure, he didn’t even get a chance to participate in the race.

Abu Dhabi 2014 - Rosberg bad start and subsequent car failure

Monza 2015 - Rosberg had engine problems all weekend long and had to run a very old engine in the race

Japan 2015 - Rosberg takes pole but has a bad start and drops to P5.

Russia 2015 - he already mentioned

USA 2015 - he already mentioned

Canada 2016 - Rosberg drops to P10 at the start

Austria 2016 - Rosberg had a gearbox penalty and had brake problems towards the end of the race

Germany 2016 - terrible start from Rosberg


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:44 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


Bottas won't have had a chance, he has only had a chance this year as Hamilton has failed to turn up in 3 races.

Rosberg had reliability problems in Abu dhabi '14 it wasn't just race ending, also in '15 Nico made a few mistakes which gave Hamilton the title, He gained momentum before Hamilton won but people like to make it like it was after Hamilton won Nico started winning, in Austin he was leading till the gust of wind where he went off!


Abu Dhabi 14 Hamilton was clearly already leading. Well if you think the title was given to Hamilton in 15 then god knows what 16 could be called. In 16 most drivers would have got the title race down to the last race if not won it specially after spending so long with the team. I wouldn't be surprised if Bottas would have won it that year, it was a 2 car race and if one car fails then the other would nearly always win, the same car kept failing.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So you read what I wrote and this is what you got from it?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:47 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


Bottas won't have had a chance, he has only had a chance this year as Hamilton has failed to turn up in 3 races.

Rosberg had reliability problems in Abu dhabi '14 it wasn't just race ending, also in '15 Nico made a few mistakes which gave Hamilton the title, He gained momentum before Hamilton won but people like to make it like it was after Hamilton won Nico started winning, in Austin he was leading till the gust of wind where he went off!


Abu Dhabi 14 Hamilton was clearly already leading. Well if you think the title was given to Hamilton in 15 then god knows what 16 could be called. In 16 most drivers would have got the title race down to the last race if not won it specially after spending so long with the team. I wouldn't be surprised if Bottas would have won it that year, it was a 2 car race and if one car fails then the other would nearly always win, the same car kept failing.

Vettel lost more points in 2010 because of reliability than Hamilton did in 2016. The difference was that Vettel was still able to make a comeback and beat Webber for the title, while Hamilton was unable to do the same to Rosberg in 2016.

Hamilton’s bad luck in 2016 has always been overstated. There have been plenty of drivers in championship seasons who have lost more points because of reliability and misfortune.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:52 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


Bottas won't have had a chance, he has only had a chance this year as Hamilton has failed to turn up in 3 races.

Rosberg had reliability problems in Abu dhabi '14 it wasn't just race ending, also in '15 Nico made a few mistakes which gave Hamilton the title, He gained momentum before Hamilton won but people like to make it like it was after Hamilton won Nico started winning, in Austin he was leading till the gust of wind where he went off!


Abu Dhabi 14 Hamilton was clearly already leading. Well if you think the title was given to Hamilton in 15 then god knows what 16 could be called. In 16 most drivers would have got the title race down to the last race if not won it specially after spending so long with the team. I wouldn't be surprised if Bottas would have won it that year, it was a 2 car race and if one car fails then the other would nearly always win, the same car kept failing.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So you read what I wrote and this is what you got from it?


:lol: that's my response to your posts, specially the clear dislike you show.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:00 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


Bottas won't have had a chance, he has only had a chance this year as Hamilton has failed to turn up in 3 races.

Rosberg had reliability problems in Abu dhabi '14 it wasn't just race ending, also in '15 Nico made a few mistakes which gave Hamilton the title, He gained momentum before Hamilton won but people like to make it like it was after Hamilton won Nico started winning, in Austin he was leading till the gust of wind where he went off!


Abu Dhabi 14 Hamilton was clearly already leading. Well if you think the title was given to Hamilton in 15 then god knows what 16 could be called. In 16 most drivers would have got the title race down to the last race if not won it specially after spending so long with the team. I wouldn't be surprised if Bottas would have won it that year, it was a 2 car race and if one car fails then the other would nearly always win, the same car kept failing.

Vettel lost more points in 2010 because of reliability than Hamilton did in 2016. The difference was that Vettel was still able to make a comeback and beat Webber for the title, while Hamilton was unable to do the same to Rosberg in 2016.

Hamilton’s bad luck in 2016 has always been overstated. There have been plenty of drivers in championship seasons who have lost more points because of reliability and misfortune.


Not in a championship which involves 2 cars clearly faster than the others. Reliability can make a big difference, any issue gifts a win to their only
competitor. Comparing the two drivers there was a big difference in reliability, Malaysia saw the biggest turn around in points and when the title was effectively lost. At least in 2010 other teams could take points of the leading driver, in 2016 that was near impossible.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:07 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Courtesy of Marklar from Autosport forum
--------------------------------------------
Rosberg "lost" wins / bad luck
--------------------------------------------
Britain 2014 – possibly but Hamilton was catching at 0.5 per lap and only behind because he started P9 after qualifying mix up /mistake in aborting his lap in the wet.

Russia 2015 – Throttle issue

USA 2015 – It was his mistake that lost him it but he did enough to win the race. He was better than Hamilton that day and had the SC wipe out his comfortable lead

Rosberg won 22 races against Hamilton. Hamilton won 31.

This is a ridiculously biased post where every Rosberg won is heavily scrutinized whereas only the very obvious wins gifted to Hamilton are mentioned. He even mentions races where Hamilton had a bad start but doesn’t do the reverse.

Hamilton’s wins against Rosberg:

Hungary 2013 - Rosberg was fastest in Q1 and Q2 but his brake adjuster knob failed in Q3.

Bahrain 2014 - Rosberg was clearly faster than Hamilton but a bad start cost him the lead and the win

Britain 2014 - Rosberg had a 5 second lead before a gradual gearbox failure.

Singapore 2014 - Rosberg car failure, he didn’t even get a chance to participate in the race.

Abu Dhabi 2014 - Rosberg bad start and subsequent car failure

Monza 2015 - Rosberg had engine problems all weekend long and had to run a very old engine in the race

Japan 2015 - Rosberg takes pole but has a bad start and drops to P5.

Russia 2015 - he already mentioned

USA 2015 - he already mentioned

Canada 2016 - Rosberg drops to P10 at the start

Austria 2016 - Rosberg had a gearbox penalty and had brake problems towards the end of the race

Germany 2016 - terrible start from Rosberg


In Austria I thought Rosberg crashed the car which caused the gearbox change. I also think the brake issues is a bit debatable because the stories was hit and miss. Anyway Rosberg lost that race himself, he would have won if he didn't cause the crash.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:31 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Courtesy of Marklar from Autosport forum
--------------------------------------------
Rosberg "lost" wins / bad luck
--------------------------------------------
Britain 2014 – possibly but Hamilton was catching at 0.5 per lap and only behind because he started P9 after qualifying mix up /mistake in aborting his lap in the wet.

Russia 2015 – Throttle issue

USA 2015 – It was his mistake that lost him it but he did enough to win the race. He was better than Hamilton that day and had the SC wipe out his comfortable lead

Rosberg won 22 races against Hamilton. Hamilton won 31.

This is a ridiculously biased post where every Rosberg won is heavily scrutinized whereas only the very obvious wins gifted to Hamilton are mentioned. He even mentions races where Hamilton had a bad start but doesn’t do the reverse.

Hamilton’s wins against Rosberg:

Hungary 2013 - Rosberg was fastest in Q1 and Q2 but his brake adjuster knob failed in Q3.

Bahrain 2014 - Rosberg was clearly faster than Hamilton but a bad start cost him the lead and the win

Britain 2014 - Rosberg had a 5 second lead before a gradual gearbox failure.

Singapore 2014 - Rosberg car failure, he didn’t even get a chance to participate in the race.

Abu Dhabi 2014 - Rosberg bad start and subsequent car failure

Monza 2015 - Rosberg had engine problems all weekend long and had to run a very old engine in the race

Japan 2015 - Rosberg takes pole but has a bad start and drops to P5.

Russia 2015 - he already mentioned

USA 2015 - he already mentioned

Canada 2016 - Rosberg drops to P10 at the start

Austria 2016 - Rosberg had a gearbox penalty and had brake problems towards the end of the race

Germany 2016 - terrible start from Rosberg


The list is purely showing Rosbergs wins. It does not scrutinise Hamilton's win because it is about Rosberg.

A few of those Rosberg was in P2 or qualified behind when his issue occurred (Abu Dhabi and Singapore for example). Those races aren't included in the other list - otherwise the other list would have been a lot longer.

Bad starts where only included from 2016 because that was the year in which Mercedes said the car had fundamental issue outside of the drivers control. Where as in 2014 and 2015 it was down to the driver.

Even given all that and using your list that flags up 12 races - that means Hamilton won 19 straight fights. Where as applying the same to Rosberg wins puts him at 5 or 6.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:38 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


Bottas won't have had a chance, he has only had a chance this year as Hamilton has failed to turn up in 3 races.

Rosberg had reliability problems in Abu dhabi '14 it wasn't just race ending, also in '15 Nico made a few mistakes which gave Hamilton the title, He gained momentum before Hamilton won but people like to make it like it was after Hamilton won Nico started winning, in Austin he was leading till the gust of wind where he went off!


Abu Dhabi 14 Hamilton was clearly already leading. Well if you think the title was given to Hamilton in 15 then god knows what 16 could be called. In 16 most drivers would have got the title race down to the last race if not won it specially after spending so long with the team. I wouldn't be surprised if Bottas would have won it that year, it was a 2 car race and if one car fails then the other would nearly always win, the same car kept failing.

Vettel lost more points in 2010 because of reliability than Hamilton did in 2016. The difference was that Vettel was still able to make a comeback and beat Webber for the title, while Hamilton was unable to do the same to Rosberg in 2016.

Hamilton’s bad luck in 2016 has always been overstated. There have been plenty of drivers in championship seasons who have lost more points because of reliability and misfortune.


If 2010 was a 2 horse race in which Red Bull 1-2 every race, Webber would have likely won the title that year. You can't compare the two. It was a 3 car championship in which 3 cars could win races. So when Vettel DNF it was not a guaranteed lose of 25 points like it was in the Mercedes fights 2014-2016. Webber finished outside the top 5 in 35% of the races in 2010. Not comparable to a car that is almost guaranteed to finish at least 2nd.

In Vettels 3 DNFs Webber finished.

Aus - 9th (2 points)
Tur - 3rd (15 points)
Kor - DNF

17 points

In Hamiltons 3 DNFs in 2014, Rosberg scored 1st,2nd,2nd and 61 points.Likewise in Rosbergs 3 DNFs in 2014, Hamilton scored 1st,1st,1st and 75 points. The two are not comparable, DNFs or an issue in race or qualifying are much more costly in a 2 horse race.

Just look at the start of 2014 to see that. Hamilton had DNF, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st. Rosberg had 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd and Hamilton lead the title race by just 3 points. Very hard to claw your way back in this scenario. So much so that Hamilton had 10 wins to Rosbergs 4 and Rosberg was still in the title fight going into the last race because Hamilton had 1 more DNF still.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:18 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


Bottas won't have had a chance, he has only had a chance this year as Hamilton has failed to turn up in 3 races.

Rosberg had reliability problems in Abu dhabi '14 it wasn't just race ending, also in '15 Nico made a few mistakes which gave Hamilton the title, He gained momentum before Hamilton won but people like to make it like it was after Hamilton won Nico started winning, in Austin he was leading till the gust of wind where he went off!


Abu Dhabi 14 Hamilton was clearly already leading. Well if you think the title was given to Hamilton in 15 then god knows what 16 could be called. In 16 most drivers would have got the title race down to the last race if not won it specially after spending so long with the team. I wouldn't be surprised if Bottas would have won it that year, it was a 2 car race and if one car fails then the other would nearly always win, the same car kept failing.

Vettel lost more points in 2010 because of reliability than Hamilton did in 2016. The difference was that Vettel was still able to make a comeback and beat Webber for the title, while Hamilton was unable to do the same to Rosberg in 2016.

Hamilton’s bad luck in 2016 has always been overstated. There have been plenty of drivers in championship seasons who have lost more points because of reliability and misfortune.

Yes like Hamilton in 2012.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:41 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I was more speculating how would Bottas do more generally over 2014-2016 against Hamilton. Nico could very rarely, turn up, out qualifying and out race Hamilton in the championship fight years. Nearly all the times it happened was in 2015.

Austria 2017, Hamilton did have a grid penalty but using the same rules as above it would go as clean because he out qualified Hamilton anyway. For example Japan 2016 is considered clean for Rosberg because he out qualified Hamilton even though Hamilton completely blew the start and lost 5-6 places.

Hamilton also won Abu Dhabi in 2014 and 2016 against Rosberg in a straight fights, controlling the race from the front although admittedly it wasn't his strongest track. Rosberg just beat him there in 2015 during his strong period against Lewis.

Bottas was 2nd in Brazil last year as he got beaten to turn 1 by Vettel.

I still think Rosberg is better on what we have seen but people forget about half of Rosbergs wins involved some circumstantial event to occur to help him out. Bottas would have definitely had a title shot in 2014 and 2016.


Bottas won't have had a chance, he has only had a chance this year as Hamilton has failed to turn up in 3 races.

Rosberg had reliability problems in Abu dhabi '14 it wasn't just race ending, also in '15 Nico made a few mistakes which gave Hamilton the title, He gained momentum before Hamilton won but people like to make it like it was after Hamilton won Nico started winning, in Austin he was leading till the gust of wind where he went off!


Abu Dhabi 14 Hamilton was clearly already leading. Well if you think the title was given to Hamilton in 15 then god knows what 16 could be called. In 16 most drivers would have got the title race down to the last race if not won it specially after spending so long with the team. I wouldn't be surprised if Bottas would have won it that year, it was a 2 car race and if one car fails then the other would nearly always win, the same car kept failing.

Vettel lost more points in 2010 because of reliability than Hamilton did in 2016. The difference was that Vettel was still able to make a comeback and beat Webber for the title, while Hamilton was unable to do the same to Rosberg in 2016.

Hamilton’s bad luck in 2016 has always been overstated. There have been plenty of drivers in championship seasons who have lost more points because of reliability and misfortune.

Yes like Hamilton in 2012.

or Schumacher in 2012.

2016 is significant because the Mercedes cars were so much better than everybody else that they were virtually guaranteed a 1-2 finish, so any problems basically handed the win to your rival (assuming they too didn't have problems). There was little chance of another car nipping in and reducing the impact of the loss.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:53 am 
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Zoue wrote:
or Schumacher in 2012.

2016 is significant because the Mercedes cars were so much better than everybody else that they were virtually guaranteed a 1-2 finish, so any problems basically handed the win to your rival (assuming they too didn't have problems). There was little chance of another car nipping in and reducing the impact of the loss.


Yes. One extra retirement took at least 3 perfect races to recover from.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:31 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
or Schumacher in 2012.

2016 is significant because the Mercedes cars were so much better than everybody else that they were virtually guaranteed a 1-2 finish, so any problems basically handed the win to your rival (assuming they too didn't have problems). There was little chance of another car nipping in and reducing the impact of the loss.


Yes. One extra retirement took at least 3 perfect races to recover from.

2016 was the longest season in F1 history. Hamilton had more than enough time to recover his bad luck relative to Rosberg.

Australia, Bahrain, Baku, Monza, Singapore, Japan

All of these were Rosberg victories where Hamilton had no car failure or grid penalty. If Lewis had just beat Nico in one of those races, he would have won the WDC.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:35 am 
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The subject is how Rosberg compares with Bottas. Rosberg V Hamilton is useful in respect of how Rosberg is rated as a driver so he can be compared with Bottas.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:02 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
or Schumacher in 2012.

2016 is significant because the Mercedes cars were so much better than everybody else that they were virtually guaranteed a 1-2 finish, so any problems basically handed the win to your rival (assuming they too didn't have problems). There was little chance of another car nipping in and reducing the impact of the loss.


Yes. One extra retirement took at least 3 perfect races to recover from.

2016 was the longest season in F1 history. Hamilton had more than enough time to recover his bad luck relative to Rosberg.

Australia, Bahrain, Baku, Monza, Singapore, Japan

All of these were Rosberg victories where Hamilton had no car failure or grid penalty. If Lewis had just beat Nico in one of those races, he would have won the WDC.


He still had four weekends compromised because of reliability issues (China, Russia, Belgium and Malaysia), whereas Rosberg had one (Austria).

If Hamilton had sorted out his starts earlier he would have won the WDC regardless of the reliability issues, but I feel you're being a little unfair to Hamilton by saying his bad luck was overstated.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:07 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
or Schumacher in 2012.

2016 is significant because the Mercedes cars were so much better than everybody else that they were virtually guaranteed a 1-2 finish, so any problems basically handed the win to your rival (assuming they too didn't have problems). There was little chance of another car nipping in and reducing the impact of the loss.


Yes. One extra retirement took at least 3 perfect races to recover from.

2016 was the longest season in F1 history. Hamilton had more than enough time to recover his bad luck relative to Rosberg.

Australia, Bahrain, Baku, Monza, Singapore, Japan

All of these were Rosberg victories where Hamilton had no car failure or grid penalty. If Lewis had just beat Nico in one of those races, he would have won the WDC.


What's this in response to? Nobody is suggesting it would have been impossible for Hamilton to be WDC with his bad luck. But if you retire one extra time you need at least 3 more wins that your direct opponent to make it up. That's assuming they don't finish directly behind you in all three of those races.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Hamilton lost 51 points in the 4 races he had mechanical issues in to Rosberg. Rosberg arguably lost 0 because his grid penalty in Austria ironically gave him a lead he never would have got if he started in the P2 he qualified in as Mercedes cars had to run the same strategy. Nico also lost 3 points in Britain too, just remembered those.

7 points gap between 1st and 2nd. It would take Hamilton 8 straight wins with Rosberg in 2nd to claw back 56 points. 7 straight wins would not be enough.

Singapore was also a reliability loss for Hamilton. He missed all of FP2 and FP3 on a street circuit. FP1 was in day light and deemed the most useless practise of the year as its meaningless for the race. Fp2 and FP3 were night time like the race and qually. Hamilton basically had zero running going into qualifying. No way can you beat a guy as talented as Rosberg with no laps.

You compared it to Vettel in 2010,he lost 17 points in the DNF races. Vettel could also quite easily win a race and Webber be 5th in 2010. Webber finished outside the top 5 in 35% of the races. In such scenario Vettel would take 15 points out of him. Gap gone in one race.


Last edited by Johnson on Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:31 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
or Schumacher in 2012.

2016 is significant because the Mercedes cars were so much better than everybody else that they were virtually guaranteed a 1-2 finish, so any problems basically handed the win to your rival (assuming they too didn't have problems). There was little chance of another car nipping in and reducing the impact of the loss.


Yes. One extra retirement took at least 3 perfect races to recover from.

2016 was the longest season in F1 history. Hamilton had more than enough time to recover his bad luck relative to Rosberg.

Australia, Bahrain, Baku, Monza, Singapore, Japan

All of these were Rosberg victories where Hamilton had no car failure or grid penalty. If Lewis had just beat Nico in one of those races, he would have won the WDC.


He still had four weekends compromised because of reliability issues (China, Russia, Belgium and Malaysia), whereas Rosberg had one (Austria).

If Hamilton had sorted out his starts earlier he would have won the WDC regardless of the reliability issues, but I feel you're being a little unfair to Hamilton by saying his bad luck was overstated.


The loss of points in Austria was self inflicted.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Hamilton lost 51 points in the 4 races he had mechanical issues in to Rosberg. Rosberg arguably lost 0 because his grid penalty in Austria ironically gave him a lead he never would have got if he started in the P2 he qualified in as Mercedes cars had to run the same strategy. Nico also lost 3 points in Britain too, just remembered those.

7 points gap between 1st and 2nd. It would take Hamilton 8 straight wins with Rosberg in 2nd to claw back 56 points. 7 straight wins would not be enough.

Singapore was also a reliability loss for Hamilton. He missed all of FP2 and FP3 on a street circuit. FP1 was in day light and deemed the most useless practise of the year as its meaningless for the race. Fp2 and FP3 were night time like the race and qually. Hamilton basically had zero running going into qualifying. No way can you beat a guy as talented as Rosberg with no laps.

You compared it to Vettel in 2010,he lost 17 points in the DNF races. Vettel could also quite easily win a race and Webber be 5th in 2010. Webber finished outside the top 5 in 35% of the races. In such scenario Vettel would take 15 points out of him. Gap gone in one race.


Rosberg only lost the win in Austria due to his own driving.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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