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Which of these fine pilots is the best?
Valtteri Bottas 19%  19%  [ 11 ]
Nico Rosberg 81%  81%  [ 48 ]
Total votes : 59
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:13 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
or Schumacher in 2012.

2016 is significant because the Mercedes cars were so much better than everybody else that they were virtually guaranteed a 1-2 finish, so any problems basically handed the win to your rival (assuming they too didn't have problems). There was little chance of another car nipping in and reducing the impact of the loss.


Yes. One extra retirement took at least 3 perfect races to recover from.

2016 was the longest season in F1 history. Hamilton had more than enough time to recover his bad luck relative to Rosberg.

Australia, Bahrain, Baku, Monza, Singapore, Japan

All of these were Rosberg victories where Hamilton had no car failure or grid penalty. If Lewis had just beat Nico in one of those races, he would have won the WDC.


He still had four weekends compromised because of reliability issues (China, Russia, Belgium and Malaysia), whereas Rosberg had one (Austria).

If Hamilton had sorted out his starts earlier he would have won the WDC regardless of the reliability issues, but I feel you're being a little unfair to Hamilton by saying his bad luck was overstated.


One could argue Hamilton had a 5th weekend compromised by reliability, Europe. Hamilton's race was negatively impacted by a technical glitch (wrong engine configeration). OK, Rosberg had a similar issue, but wasn't Rosberg's self-made, and thus easier to reverse?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:48 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
or Schumacher in 2012.

2016 is significant because the Mercedes cars were so much better than everybody else that they were virtually guaranteed a 1-2 finish, so any problems basically handed the win to your rival (assuming they too didn't have problems). There was little chance of another car nipping in and reducing the impact of the loss.


Yes. One extra retirement took at least 3 perfect races to recover from.

2016 was the longest season in F1 history. Hamilton had more than enough time to recover his bad luck relative to Rosberg.

Australia, Bahrain, Baku, Monza, Singapore, Japan

All of these were Rosberg victories where Hamilton had no car failure or grid penalty. If Lewis had just beat Nico in one of those races, he would have won the WDC.


He still had four weekends compromised because of reliability issues (China, Russia, Belgium and Malaysia), whereas Rosberg had one (Austria).

If Hamilton had sorted out his starts earlier he would have won the WDC regardless of the reliability issues, but I feel you're being a little unfair to Hamilton by saying his bad luck was overstated.


The loss of points in Austria was self inflicted.


I was talking about the gearbox penalty, not the last lap incident.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:49 pm 
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SR1 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
or Schumacher in 2012.

2016 is significant because the Mercedes cars were so much better than everybody else that they were virtually guaranteed a 1-2 finish, so any problems basically handed the win to your rival (assuming they too didn't have problems). There was little chance of another car nipping in and reducing the impact of the loss.


Yes. One extra retirement took at least 3 perfect races to recover from.

2016 was the longest season in F1 history. Hamilton had more than enough time to recover his bad luck relative to Rosberg.

Australia, Bahrain, Baku, Monza, Singapore, Japan

All of these were Rosberg victories where Hamilton had no car failure or grid penalty. If Lewis had just beat Nico in one of those races, he would have won the WDC.


He still had four weekends compromised because of reliability issues (China, Russia, Belgium and Malaysia), whereas Rosberg had one (Austria).

If Hamilton had sorted out his starts earlier he would have won the WDC regardless of the reliability issues, but I feel you're being a little unfair to Hamilton by saying his bad luck was overstated.


One could argue Hamilton had a 5th weekend compromised by reliability, Europe. Hamilton's race was negatively impacted by a technical glitch (wrong engine configeration). OK, Rosberg had a similar issue, but wasn't Rosberg's self-made, and thus easier to reverse?


I forgot about that. Admittedly, that is a race I didn't watch at the time or since so don't know how much Hamilton's race was affected.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:52 am 
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Rosberg by country mile. Don't get me wrong, Bottas is ok driver but he is not WDC material. Not yet at least.

On the other hand, my opinion of Rosberg (which was bad initially with his big talk and how he aint worried about Schumacher regardless of his 3 year break ) changed immediately after seeing him race in those 3 seasons. He had his ups and downs even then but he showed those glimpses of pure speed.
And I will go on a limb and say that had Rosberg had better team of people behind him, backing him and keeping his head better, he would have run Hamilton even closer in those 4 years. The title he won was coming for a while. Frankly both Lauda and Wolff didnt help Rosberg one bit in previous 3 years with their open criticism at times. Rosberg is kind of a driver who delivers when he has full backing and support of people he is around. That incidents with Hamilton and public slamming by his own team broke his game in previous years. That was bad management by Mercedes. They were lucky that they had nobody to challenge them in those 2 years or it would have backfired spectacularly.

As a race driver and formula one driver, I rate Rosberg just behind the current top 3 (Ham, Vet, Alo ). He probably needs more management and support than those people but on talent and pace, he can be and has been as quick as any of them.

I cant say the same about Bottas. Never could. And there lies the difference. I understand why Nico retired and it is precisely because of what I said above. But I would have loved to see him battle it out for few more years.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:59 am 
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:lol:

This thread was certainly predictable!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:09 am 
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It's a little tricky though, I think that Rosberg is quicker and great over one lap but he had terrible racecraft even though it improved. But I have to qustion that too, did it improve or was it masked by the great cars he had between 2014-2016?
Bottas has alot better racecraft, both when defending and passing others but he isn't as quick.

I don't see neither as WDC material, even though one of them is one. But there are more WDC that might not have been if it wasn't through dominant cars, or the competition breaking down or whatever.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
It's a little tricky though, I think that Rosberg is quicker and great over one lap but he had terrible racecraft even though it improved. But I have to qustion that too, did it improve or was it masked by the great cars he had between 2014-2016?
Bottas has alot better racecraft, both when defending and passing others but he isn't as quick.

I don't see neither as WDC material, even though one of them is one. But there are more WDC that might not have been if it wasn't through dominant cars, or the competition breaking down or whatever.


What you mention here is funny, had Hamilton not gone to Merc, Rosberg will have 4 titles and also Hamilton himself will still have just one WDC.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
It's a little tricky though, I think that Rosberg is quicker and great over one lap but he had terrible racecraft even though it improved. But I have to qustion that too, did it improve or was it masked by the great cars he had between 2014-2016?
Bottas has alot better racecraft, both when defending and passing others but he isn't as quick.

I don't see neither as WDC material, even though one of them is one. But there are more WDC that might not have been if it wasn't through dominant cars, or the competition breaking down or whatever.


What you mention here is funny, had Hamilton not gone to Merc, Rosberg will have 4 titles and also Hamilton himself will still have just one WDC.


You mean 3, there's nothing to say Rosberg would have won in 2017, would there have only been one driver for Mercedes between 2014-17?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:24 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
It's a little tricky though, I think that Rosberg is quicker and great over one lap but he had terrible racecraft even though it improved. But I have to qustion that too, did it improve or was it masked by the great cars he had between 2014-2016?
Bottas has alot better racecraft, both when defending and passing others but he isn't as quick.

I don't see neither as WDC material, even though one of them is one. But there are more WDC that might not have been if it wasn't through dominant cars, or the competition breaking down or whatever.


What you mention here is funny, had Hamilton not gone to Merc, Rosberg will have 4 titles and also Hamilton himself will still have just one WDC.


You mean 3, there's nothing to say Rosberg would have won in 2017, would there have only been one driver for Mercedes between 2014-17?


4 the only reason Vettel had a chance was Hamilton dropping the ball in the first half of the season at a point Bottas was winning races as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
It's a little tricky though, I think that Rosberg is quicker and great over one lap but he had terrible racecraft even though it improved. But I have to qustion that too, did it improve or was it masked by the great cars he had between 2014-2016?
Bottas has alot better racecraft, both when defending and passing others but he isn't as quick.

I don't see neither as WDC material, even though one of them is one. But there are more WDC that might not have been if it wasn't through dominant cars, or the competition breaking down or whatever.


What you mention here is funny, had Hamilton not gone to Merc, Rosberg will have 4 titles and also Hamilton himself will still have just one WDC.


You mean 3, there's nothing to say Rosberg would have won in 2017, would there have only been one driver for Mercedes between 2014-17?


4 the only reason Vettel had a chance was Hamilton dropping the ball in the first half of the season at a point Bottas was winning races as well.

I think that's a bit harsh. While I agree that virtually any driver could have won in the Merc between 2014 and 2016 (depending only on who his team mate was), I think Hamilton earned his money in 2017. His advantage wasn't enough that he didn't have to work for it


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:46 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
It's a little tricky though, I think that Rosberg is quicker and great over one lap but he had terrible racecraft even though it improved. But I have to qustion that too, did it improve or was it masked by the great cars he had between 2014-2016?
Bottas has alot better racecraft, both when defending and passing others but he isn't as quick.

I don't see neither as WDC material, even though one of them is one. But there are more WDC that might not have been if it wasn't through dominant cars, or the competition breaking down or whatever.


What you mention here is funny, had Hamilton not gone to Merc, Rosberg will have 4 titles and also Hamilton himself will still have just one WDC.


You mean 3, there's nothing to say Rosberg would have won in 2017, would there have only been one driver for Mercedes between 2014-17?


4 the only reason Vettel had a chance was Hamilton dropping the ball in the first half of the season at a point Bottas was winning races as well.


Vettel had every chance of winning the title, Ferrari and Vettel mistakes cost them dearly. Lets not get silly and make out it was a Mercedes domination. You mean 2 races which took a Bottas great start and from pole position, they was well earned. Every driver who partners Hamilton will beat him, you can't win every weekend.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:19 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
It's a little tricky though, I think that Rosberg is quicker and great over one lap but he had terrible racecraft even though it improved. But I have to qustion that too, did it improve or was it masked by the great cars he had between 2014-2016?
Bottas has alot better racecraft, both when defending and passing others but he isn't as quick.

I don't see neither as WDC material, even though one of them is one. But there are more WDC that might not have been if it wasn't through dominant cars, or the competition breaking down or whatever.


What you mention here is funny, had Hamilton not gone to Merc, Rosberg will have 4 titles and also Hamilton himself will still have just one WDC.


You mean 3, there's nothing to say Rosberg would have won in 2017, would there have only been one driver for Mercedes between 2014-17?


4 the only reason Vettel had a chance was Hamilton dropping the ball in the first half of the season at a point Bottas was winning races as well.


Vettel had every chance of winning the title, Ferrari and Vettel mistakes cost them dearly. Lets not get silly and make out it was a Mercedes domination. You mean 2 races which took a Bottas great start and from pole position, they was well earned. Every driver who partners Hamilton will beat him, you can't win every weekend.


If Hamilton had the same start to the season Vettel had, Vettel would have been hoping for reliability to stop Hamilton not his own driving ability if you don't see that difference then I cant help you.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:36 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
It's a little tricky though, I think that Rosberg is quicker and great over one lap but he had terrible racecraft even though it improved. But I have to qustion that too, did it improve or was it masked by the great cars he had between 2014-2016?
Bottas has alot better racecraft, both when defending and passing others but he isn't as quick.

I don't see neither as WDC material, even though one of them is one. But there are more WDC that might not have been if it wasn't through dominant cars, or the competition breaking down or whatever.


What you mention here is funny, had Hamilton not gone to Merc, Rosberg will have 4 titles and also Hamilton himself will still have just one WDC.


You mean 3, there's nothing to say Rosberg would have won in 2017, would there have only been one driver for Mercedes between 2014-17?


4 the only reason Vettel had a chance was Hamilton dropping the ball in the first half of the season at a point Bottas was winning races as well.

I think that's a bit harsh. While I agree that virtually any driver could have won in the Merc between 2014 and 2016 (depending only on who his team mate was), I think Hamilton earned his money in 2017. His advantage wasn't enough that he didn't have to work for it


Not harsh at all performance wise the only way Vettel was winning was for Ferrari to be perfect and that is not possible.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:26 pm 
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Not harsh at all performance wise the only way Vettel was winning was for Ferrari to be perfect and that is not possible.[/quote]

Against Hamilton yes. A weaker driver in the Mercedes obviously would've been easier to beat. See Bottas.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:24 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
It's a little tricky though, I think that Rosberg is quicker and great over one lap but he had terrible racecraft even though it improved. But I have to qustion that too, did it improve or was it masked by the great cars he had between 2014-2016?
Bottas has alot better racecraft, both when defending and passing others but he isn't as quick.

I don't see neither as WDC material, even though one of them is one. But there are more WDC that might not have been if it wasn't through dominant cars, or the competition breaking down or whatever.


What you mention here is funny, had Hamilton not gone to Merc, Rosberg will have 4 titles and also Hamilton himself will still have just one WDC.


The sport will always be car and driver, Damon Hill could have quite easily won 4 titles, 1994-1997.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
If Hamilton had the same start to the season Vettel had, Vettel would have been hoping for reliability to stop Hamilton not his own driving ability if you don't see that difference then I cant help you.


Vettel was ahead of Rosberg in the 2015 WDC with 3 races to go. People forget, but Hamilton won the title from Vettel at the USA GP 2015. Not Rosberg. Vettel was able to be up there with Rosberg in the 2015 Ferrari he certainly would have been in the 2017 one.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
If Hamilton had the same start to the season Vettel had, Vettel would have been hoping for reliability to stop Hamilton not his own driving ability if you don't see that difference then I cant help you.

Vettel was ahead of Rosberg in the 2015 WDC with 3 races to go. People forget, but Hamilton won the title from Vettel at the USA GP 2015. Not Rosberg. Vettel was able to be up there with Rosberg in the 2015 Ferrari he certainly would have been in the 2017 one.

Only because Rosberg was finishing second to Hamilton so much. If he'd had a teammate he could easily handle, you'd convert all those 18 point weekends to 25s and Vettel would have never been close - he'd have been ahead of whoever Rosberg's #2 teammate was, instead.

Rosberg vs. Vettel, when both finished in 2015, was 13-3 (with all three of Vettel's being his wins, when he was ahead of Hamilton as well). That doesn't strike me as Vettel 'being up there with Rosberg'.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:


What you mention here is funny, had Hamilton not gone to Merc, Rosberg will have 4 titles and also Hamilton himself will still have just one WDC.


You mean 3, there's nothing to say Rosberg would have won in 2017, would there have only been one driver for Mercedes between 2014-17?


4 the only reason Vettel had a chance was Hamilton dropping the ball in the first half of the season at a point Bottas was winning races as well.


Vettel had every chance of winning the title, Ferrari and Vettel mistakes cost them dearly. Lets not get silly and make out it was a Mercedes domination. You mean 2 races which took a Bottas great start and from pole position, they was well earned. Every driver who partners Hamilton will beat him, you can't win every weekend.


If Hamilton had the same start to the season Vettel had, Vettel would have been hoping for reliability to stop Hamilton not his own driving ability if you don't see that difference then I cant help you.


I don't have a clue what your going on about, if Perez had the same start as Vettel he would have been in the championship hunt :?

Whatever happens happened and Vettel was well in the title race until Singapore happened. Your posts consistently downplay everything Hamilton has done while trying to make out Vettel is fighting against all odds.

Hamilton had to fight hard for the 2017 championship, the Ferrari was not a rubbish car. The title was not a given like the 3 years before for Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
If Hamilton had the same start to the season Vettel had, Vettel would have been hoping for reliability to stop Hamilton not his own driving ability if you don't see that difference then I cant help you.

Vettel was ahead of Rosberg in the 2015 WDC with 3 races to go. People forget, but Hamilton won the title from Vettel at the USA GP 2015. Not Rosberg. Vettel was able to be up there with Rosberg in the 2015 Ferrari he certainly would have been in the 2017 one.

Only because Rosberg was finishing second to Hamilton so much. If he'd had a teammate he could easily handle, you'd convert all those 18 point weekends to 25s and Vettel would have never been close - he'd have been ahead of whoever Rosberg's #2 teammate was, instead.

Rosberg vs. Vettel, when both finished in 2015, was 13-3 (with all three of Vettel's being his wins, when he was ahead of Hamilton as well). That doesn't strike me as Vettel 'being up there with Rosberg'.


Vettel was ahead of him with 3 races to go with Rosberg only having 1 more DNF Vettel was 7 points ahead of him. They were close in the table all season with Vettel in a huge inferior car. It was also 3-3 in wins at that time. But my point was more, if Vettel can be there with Rosberg in an hugely inferior car then he is certainly going to be there when they are more equal.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:36 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
I don't have a clue what your going on about, if Perez had the same start as Vettel he would have been in the championship hunt :?

The point that is being made is that:

1. Vettel’s bad moments in 2017 are frequently mentioned, while Hamilton’s mistakes (Bahrain and Brazil) and off weekends (Russia and Monaco) are usually ignored.

2. Over the course of the whole season, Ferrari was on balance a slower car than Mercedes and also less reliable.

3. The fact that Vettel drove better than Hamilton in the first half of the season and was leading the WDC by Hungary with a slightly inferior car is ignored.

4. The only way Vettel could have won the 2017 WDC is if he drove a 100% perfect season while Hamilton is still allowed to make mistakes and have bad weekends.

5. If Hamilton drove a perfect season in 2017, then it would have been impossible for anyone to win the WDC in that Ferrari car.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:50 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
I don't have a clue what your going on about, if Perez had the same start as Vettel he would have been in the championship hunt :?

The point that is being made is that:

1. Vettel’s bad moments in 2017 are frequently mentioned, while Hamilton’s mistakes (Bahrain and Brazil) and off weekends (Russia and Monaco) are usually ignored.

2. Over the course of the whole season, Ferrari was on balance a slower car than Mercedes and also less reliable.

3. The fact that Vettel drove better than Hamilton in the first half of the season and was leading the WDC by Hungary with a slightly inferior car is ignored.

4. The only way Vettel could have won the 2017 WDC is if he drove a 100% perfect season while Hamilton is still allowed to make mistakes and have bad weekends.

5. If Hamilton drove a perfect season in 2017, then it would have been impossible for anyone to win the WDC in that Ferrari car.


Originally the point was Rosberg would be a 4 time champion including 2017 when 2017 was nothing like the 3 years before. By the season end Mercedes was the better car but they didn't hold the advantage of the last 3 years, there's no guarantee Rosberg would have won the title. Hamilton and Vettel are both better drivers than Rosberg. Singapore was a massive swing in points which Hamilton won when he had the 3rd best car due to the carnage at the start. It's a big assumption to predict Rosberg would have beaten Vettel last year.

What's all this pointless talk of perfect seasons, who has ever had a perfect season?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:59 pm 
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I reckon Rosberg would have won the WDC against Vettel in 2017, although it would’ve been very close.

Rosberg was typically about 1 tenth slower than Hamilton on average over a season.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:09 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I reckon Rosberg would have won the WDC against Vettel in 2017, although it would’ve been very close.

Rosberg was typically about 1 tenth slower than Hamilton on average over a season.


Oh yeah it would have been close, I couldn't call it and I'm not saying Vettel would have won in 2017 but he is the better driver out of the two. I just done think anyone can presume Rosberg would have won either.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:53 pm 
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If Rosberg finished every race (like Hamilton did) and Vettel had 2 DNFs then Rosberg would win the title. If Bottas didn’t DNF with an engine failure in Spain he would have finished on the same points as Vettel.

I think Vettel would likely get 6-7 wins though instead of 5. Would Vettel take a risk like Singapore though if Rosberg was his rival.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:08 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
If Rosberg finished every race (like Hamilton did) and Vettel had 2 DNFs then Rosberg would win the title. If Bottas didn’t DNF with an engine failure in Spain he would have finished on the same points as Vettel.

I think Vettel would likely get 6-7 wins though instead of 5. Would Vettel take a risk like Singapore though if Rosberg was his rival.


It's too hard to guess, maybe Rosberg qualifies higher in Singapore and the crash never happens. There was many close races which the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg could be important, IMO Hamilton was quite abit better in race pace, rain conditions and racecraft over Rosberg and the same would be for Vettel over Rosberg.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:24 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
I don't have a clue what your going on about, if Perez had the same start as Vettel he would have been in the championship hunt :?

The point that is being made is that:

1. Vettel’s bad moments in 2017 are frequently mentioned, while Hamilton’s mistakes (Bahrain and Brazil) and off weekends (Russia and Monaco) are usually ignored.

2. Over the course of the whole season, Ferrari was on balance a slower car than Mercedes and also less reliable.

3. The fact that Vettel drove better than Hamilton in the first half of the season and was leading the WDC by Hungary with a slightly inferior car is ignored.

4. The only way Vettel could have won the 2017 WDC is if he drove a 100% perfect season while Hamilton is still allowed to make mistakes and have bad weekends.

5. If Hamilton drove a perfect season in 2017, then it would have been impossible for anyone to win the WDC in that Ferrari car.


Succinctly put, could not have said it any better.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:26 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Not harsh at all performance wise the only way Vettel was winning was for Ferrari to be perfect and that is not possible.


Against Hamilton yes. A weaker driver in the Mercedes obviously would've been easier to beat. See Bottas.[/quote]


Not sure i agree. Vettel had already put in some "less than perfect" performances (e.g.GB, Canada, Baku etc)-yet going into Singapore, he had every chance to take control of the championship. Vettel was only 3 points behind Hamilton. Mercedes was only 3rd fastest. All Vettel had to do was finish the race in front of Hamilton and he would have been right back in contention. Instead,Vettel exercised poor judgement at the race start, and threw a bag of points away. Had he nailed Singapore, it still would have been all to play for-especially as we saw how Merc somewhat struggled in some of the latter races.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:52 pm 
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Finishing just ahead of Hamilton wasn’t really enough for Vettel in Singapore. Hamilton and Mercedes had taken control on the title and Hamilton had just gone ahead in the championship for the first time (?)

Going into Singapore, Vettel had 1 win in 7 races. At Hungary, a track everybody knew Ferrari would win at. Mercedes had 5 wins in those 7, which should have been 6 without Hamiltons head rest issue. Vettel had to win Singapore really.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:15 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
It's a little tricky though, I think that Rosberg is quicker and great over one lap but he had terrible racecraft even though it improved. But I have to qustion that too, did it improve or was it masked by the great cars he had between 2014-2016?
Bottas has alot better racecraft, both when defending and passing others but he isn't as quick.

I don't see neither as WDC material, even though one of them is one. But there are more WDC that might not have been if it wasn't through dominant cars, or the competition breaking down or whatever.


What you mention here is funny, had Hamilton not gone to Merc, Rosberg will have 4 titles and also Hamilton himself will still have just one WDC.


The sport will always be car and driver, Damon Hill could have quite easily won 4 titles, 1994-1997.


Only if he could have made Schumi, Mika Hakkinen and perhaps others disappear... or Schumi et al gain massive weight.

;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:15 am 
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Blake wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The sport will always be car and driver, Damon Hill could have quite easily won 4 titles, 1994-1997.

Only if he could have made Schumi, Mika Hakkinen and perhaps others disappear... or Schumi et al gain massive weight.

I'm uncertain any driver should have beaten Schumacher in 1994, so I'd have trouble saying Hill could have easily won that year. Yes, as things happened he should have won it, but that's only with the very dubious two-race ban that the FIA handed in an attempt to keep Schumi from winning. They were never able to prove that the car was illegal, so I think they should have just stayed out of it.

1995 is a different story; Frank Williams certainly believed that Hill should have won, and that a top driver (ala Senna) would have won. I think there are a number of drivers who would have won the 1995 WDC in the Williams. As for 1997, that one would be a gimme if he won in 1995 - a driver good enough to beat Schumi in a slightly better car would also be good enough to beat J. Villeneuve as a teammate, and wouldn't have been fired after 1996.

So in other words, I think 1995-1997 he could have easily won, but the 1994 Williams wasn't good enough to win the championship without some serious FIA interference.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:24 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rosberg vs. Vettel, when both finished in 2015, was 13-3 (with all three of Vettel's being his wins, when he was ahead of Hamilton as well). That doesn't strike me as Vettel 'being up there with Rosberg'.

Vettel was ahead of him with 3 races to go with Rosberg only having 1 more DNF Vettel was 7 points ahead of him. They were close in the table all season with Vettel in a huge inferior car. It was also 3-3 in wins at that time. But my point was more, if Vettel can be there with Rosberg in an hugely inferior car then he is certainly going to be there when they are more equal.

But Vettel wasn't right there with Rosberg. The reason - the only reason - he was so close in points with Rosberg is that Rosberg was losing points to his teammate, while Vettel lost essentially none to his own. If Vettel had somehow won the 2015 title, it would have been like 1986 - Prost had no answer for either Williams car, but they kept taking points off each other and his teammate wasn't a threat to him. There's 7 points between 1st and 2nd, and only 3 points between 2nd and 3rd. If Rosberg had been winning those races that Vettel was finishing right behind him in, it wouldn't have been close. The fact that neither of them was winning most of them is why it looked like it did.

I'm not in any way saying Rosberg was a better driver than Vettel: I don't think he was. But the point totals from 2015 - when Rosberg had a teammate who was quicker than him - don't have much relevance to a hypothetical 2017 where Rosberg is the lead driver at Mercedes, and isn't losing points to his teammate like he did to Hamilton. With the technical difficulties and incidents Vettel had in 2017, I believe Rosberg - with Hamilton's same perfect finishing record - would still have won that title.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:22 am 
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SR1 wrote:
Not sure i agree. Vettel had already put in some "less than perfect" performances (e.g.GB, Canada, Baku etc)-yet going into Singapore, he had every chance to take control of the championship. Vettel was only 3 points behind Hamilton. Mercedes was only 3rd fastest. All Vettel had to do was finish the race in front of Hamilton and he would have been right back in contention. Instead,Vettel exercised poor judgement at the race start, and threw a bag of points away. Had he nailed Singapore, it still would have been all to play for-especially as we saw how Merc somewhat struggled in some of the latter races.

Even if Vettel nailed Singapore, he still would have had to start from the back in Malaysia and retired in Japan. That’s 31 points lost relative to Hamilton right there. Then Mercedes was simply the faster car around COTA, and Vettel lost a further 7 points there. If Hamilton had not crashed in Brazil, he would have won that race easily. Then in Abu Dhabi Mercedes was dominant, and Bottas would be instructed to let Hamilton through if there was still any doubt about the WDC.

It was almost impossible for Vettel to win the WDC in 2017, with or without his Singapore mistake. Mercedes was faster on the majority of circuits and had bulletproof reliability.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:57 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
It was almost impossible for Vettel to win the WDC in 2017, with or without his Singapore mistake. Mercedes was faster on the majority of circuits and had bulletproof reliability.

Pretty much. With Hamilton having not even a single mechanical failure, and all of Vettel's issues coming at tracks where he was likely to beat Hamilton, the deck was pretty stacked against him. I think he could have won the WDC if he was perfect, even despite the mechanical issues - but not if Hamilton was also perfect. By my own opinion, points lost due to circumstances under the drivers' control:

Vettel:
Possibly 7 points in Russia, although requiring him to pass Bottas on track is picky. Nothing he could do at the start.
Avoiding Verstappen at the start would have gotten him an almost certain second place and 6 points (mind you, I consider the contact Max's fault).
Should have won Baku, with Hamilton's headrest issue - 13 points lost.
See Russia. As many as 7 points, if we're being really harsh.
Not sure how I feel about Silverstone, but I'm not going to say he lost any points by driver error since the puncture makes it unclear.
25 points from Singapore, since he could have avoided the collision whether or not you hold him at fault for it. Even more, since Hamilton inherited this win.
Probably 6 points in Mexico, but if you assume Hamilton was going to finish ahead of him otherwise then he actually came out better from the contact. I'll call it even.

So adding up all of Vettel's avoidable point losses, by being perfect he could have made up as many as 58 points. Just by avoiding collisions - cutting out the failed-to-pass Bottas events - that trims down to 44 points lost due to avoidable contact with either Hamilton or Verstappen. With Hamilton winning the title by 46 points, that's not enough to make the difference: he would have needed to make at least one of those passes stick to change history.

Hamilton:
If we're demanding perfection, 13 points lost in Russia by not being faster than Bottas. At least 3 points by not even being faster than Kimi.
Similar to above, 6 points lost in Monaco by not being as fast as Bottas.
With a perfect drive he probably could have overtaken Ricciardo in Austria, so 3 points lost.
3 points lost by qualifying behind Bottas in Hungary. I don't think overtaking Kimi was possible.
I blame Vettel for the contact in Mexico, but Hamilton made a meal of fighting his way back. Somewhere around 10 points lost.
13 points (and more for being in front of Vettel) for crashing in qualifying in Brazil.
On the harsh principle that Hamilton should never be slower than Bottas, 7 points lost in Abu Dhabi.

Adding all of that up, we get 55 points compared to a totally perfect drive. A full 29 of those points are basically 'not faster than Bottas' points. Only the 13 points from Brazil are down to a tangible error.

With Vettel driving perfectly - including passing Bottas for the lead in both Russia and Austria - he would be ahead by a net 12 points. Even Hamilton just not crashing in Brazil is enough to wipe that away.

Bottom line: With two more no-fault car failures than Hamilton, Vettel would have needed to drive significantly better than his rival to take the title, not just as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:51 am 
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The original point was Rosberg would have defiantly beaten Vettel in 2017. Hamilton beat Vettel in 2017 but he is a better driver than Rosberg, Vettel is also a better driver than Rosberg, trying to use last season as a guide is pointless because so many races could have played out differently. I don't think Rosberg is better than Vettel in any department plus in a different car you get to use strategy more.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:58 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rosberg vs. Vettel, when both finished in 2015, was 13-3 (with all three of Vettel's being his wins, when he was ahead of Hamilton as well). That doesn't strike me as Vettel 'being up there with Rosberg'.

Vettel was ahead of him with 3 races to go with Rosberg only having 1 more DNF Vettel was 7 points ahead of him. They were close in the table all season with Vettel in a huge inferior car. It was also 3-3 in wins at that time. But my point was more, if Vettel can be there with Rosberg in an hugely inferior car then he is certainly going to be there when they are more equal.

But Vettel wasn't right there with Rosberg. The reason - the only reason - he was so close in points with Rosberg is that Rosberg was losing points to his teammate, while Vettel lost essentially none to his own. If Vettel had somehow won the 2015 title, it would have been like 1986 - Prost had no answer for either Williams car, but they kept taking points off each other and his teammate wasn't a threat to him. There's 7 points between 1st and 2nd, and only 3 points between 2nd and 3rd. If Rosberg had been winning those races that Vettel was finishing right behind him in, it wouldn't have been close. The fact that neither of them was winning most of them is why it looked like it did.

I'm not in any way saying Rosberg was a better driver than Vettel: I don't think he was. But the point totals from 2015 - when Rosberg had a teammate who was quicker than him - don't have much relevance to a hypothetical 2017 where Rosberg is the lead driver at Mercedes, and isn't losing points to his teammate like he did to Hamilton. With the technical difficulties and incidents Vettel had in 2017, I believe Rosberg - with Hamilton's same perfect finishing record - would still have won that title.


That's a big believe when both drivers are better than Rosberg, the races would have simply not played out the same. Vettel probably would have used his head more than his emotions too racing against a driver who is a tier below.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:07 am 
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Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
It was almost impossible for Vettel to win the WDC in 2017, with or without his Singapore mistake. Mercedes was faster on the majority of circuits and had bulletproof reliability.

Pretty much. With Hamilton having not even a single mechanical failure, and all of Vettel's issues coming at tracks where he was likely to beat Hamilton, the deck was pretty stacked against him. I think he could have won the WDC if he was perfect, even despite the mechanical issues - but not if Hamilton was also perfect. By my own opinion, points lost due to circumstances under the drivers' control:

Vettel:
Possibly 7 points in Russia, although requiring him to pass Bottas on track is picky. Nothing he could do at the start.
Avoiding Verstappen at the start would have gotten him an almost certain second place and 6 points (mind you, I consider the contact Max's fault).
Should have won Baku, with Hamilton's headrest issue - 13 points lost.
See Russia. As many as 7 points, if we're being really harsh.
Not sure how I feel about Silverstone, but I'm not going to say he lost any points by driver error since the puncture makes it unclear.
25 points from Singapore, since he could have avoided the collision whether or not you hold him at fault for it. Even more, since Hamilton inherited this win.
Probably 6 points in Mexico, but if you assume Hamilton was going to finish ahead of him otherwise then he actually came out better from the contact. I'll call it even.

So adding up all of Vettel's avoidable point losses, by being perfect he could have made up as many as 58 points. Just by avoiding collisions - cutting out the failed-to-pass Bottas events - that trims down to 44 points lost due to avoidable contact with either Hamilton or Verstappen. With Hamilton winning the title by 46 points, that's not enough to make the difference: he would have needed to make at least one of those passes stick to change history.

Hamilton:
If we're demanding perfection, 13 points lost in Russia by not being faster than Bottas. At least 3 points by not even being faster than Kimi.
Similar to above, 6 points lost in Monaco by not being as fast as Bottas.
With a perfect drive he probably could have overtaken Ricciardo in Austria, so 3 points lost.
3 points lost by qualifying behind Bottas in Hungary. I don't think overtaking Kimi was possible.
I blame Vettel for the contact in Mexico, but Hamilton made a meal of fighting his way back. Somewhere around 10 points lost.
13 points (and more for being in front of Vettel) for crashing in qualifying in Brazil.
On the harsh principle that Hamilton should never be slower than Bottas, 7 points lost in Abu Dhabi.

Adding all of that up, we get 55 points compared to a totally perfect drive. A full 29 of those points are basically 'not faster than Bottas' points. Only the 13 points from Brazil are down to a tangible error.

With Vettel driving perfectly - including passing Bottas for the lead in both Russia and Austria - he would be ahead by a net 12 points. Even Hamilton just not crashing in Brazil is enough to wipe that away.

Bottom line: With two more no-fault car failures than Hamilton, Vettel would have needed to drive significantly better than his rival to take the title, not just as well.


What's the point in discussing a perfect season, who has a perfect season? Blaming drivers for not overtaking another is pointless when overtaking is near impossible.

Vettel couldn't overtake a Mercedes at Belgium, Austria and Russia, once you are stuck behind another car then that's it. Who's to say Rosberg would have beaten Vettel in quali at Belgium and Austria, would Rosberg have beaten two Ferrari' s of the line to turn 1 in Russia.

Hamilton had the SC and Bottas train at Spain, the list goes on and I doubt very few races would have played out the same apart from reliability issues.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:09 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
That's a big believe when both drivers are better than Rosberg, the races would have simply not played out the same. Vettel probably would have used his head more than his emotions too racing against a driver who is a tier below.

Unless he was getting beat by him, in which case he'd be even more mad about it...

Rosberg's weakness relative to Hamilton was a tenth or so in qualifying, plus poor racecraft. I don't have the time to go over the 2017 season race-by-race, but my gut feeling is that a tenth per lap (even if it was consistent over the whole season) wouldn't change very many races in Vettel's favor. That's only 5-6 seconds at most tracks over a race distance, and it doesn't mean Vettel would have been able to overtake even if he caught.

Where the differences would probably have shown more would be races where Hamilton needed to make decisive overtakes, or difficult defenses of his position. It would be interesting to look at how many of those happened in 2017, and hopefully I'll have the time tomorrow.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:17 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
That's a big believe when both drivers are better than Rosberg, the races would have simply not played out the same. Vettel probably would have used his head more than his emotions too racing against a driver who is a tier below.

Unless he was getting beat by him, in which case he'd be even more mad about it...

Rosberg's weakness relative to Hamilton was a tenth or so in qualifying, plus poor racecraft. I don't have the time to go over the 2017 season race-by-race, but my gut feeling is that a tenth per lap (even if it was consistent over the whole season) wouldn't change very many races in Vettel's favor. That's only 5-6 seconds at most tracks over a race distance, and it doesn't mean Vettel would have been able to overtake even if he caught.

Where the differences would probably have shown more would be races where Hamilton needed to make decisive overtakes, or difficult defenses of his position. It would be interesting to look at how many of those happened in 2017, and hopefully I'll have the time tomorrow.


Vettel and Hamilton are deffiantly better drivers and I think Rosberg only matches them in quali. Race pace or racecraft he lacks quite abit to them both, in the Mercedes domination era Rosberg knew quali would win him the race, against Vettel and Ferrari you have a team who can actually change strategy if possible and is closer, even though in the end the Mercedes was the better car Vettel being better would bridge the gap just ike Hamilton in the Ferrari too, there wasn't the luxury of Mercedes domination anymore.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:19 am 
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Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:38 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?

Japan 2015 until Spain 2016 was quite a good run for him. That's 11 races I think.


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