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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If a team is bending the rules or pushing the boundaries a bit far, then generally I have no problem with that. Often it's down to rule interpretation and then there's an argument for saying the rules should be better defined. Example for that might be the recent Ferrari mirror design.

However, if a team is acting with a deliberate intent to bypass the rules entirely, then as far as I'm concerned that's cheating and strong sanctions should be imposed (can't think what at the moment, I guess it depends on the severity). Example for that might be the VAG emission scandal, where software was programmed to deliberately defraud the control process. I'm not an engineer, so don't know if the OP example is a consequence of something else or straightforward cheating, but if the latter then I'm afraid they would need to be brought to task

VAG didn't bend rules, they simply cheated. In fact there is no such a thing as bending rules. Something is either legal or not. Remember double diffuses? At the beginning people though it was bending rules, then later it became norm since every car had it because it was simply legal. There were many devices like that.

I don't think you read my post properly, as you'll see that I specifically separated those who are bending the rules and those like VAG who cheated.

I think the rest of your post is getting into semantics territory. If the rules aren't written well and allow ambiguity, then taking advantage of that ambiguity isn't cheating in my book. However if someone does something with the deliberate intention of circumventing the rules - VAG again - then that's clearly cheating, not misinterpretation. I think it's quite easy to differentiate the two.

Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:32 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Someone has said something on the internet and the usual suspect are up in arms.

Not just someone is it, various people.

In the video by Marc Priestly in another thread he mentioned that Mercedes' performance dropped after Australia at least in part because the FIA found something in their engine management that they deemed questionable and Mercedes were "asked" to remove it. I'm just wondering why you aren't in arms about that, too. Or is it just when Ferrari are in the spotlight that you feel action should be taken?

I go back to what you said about exploiting grey areas as opposed to out and out cheating.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:33 pm 
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pokerman,

If Hamilton ever comes to drive for Ferrari, do all of us who have supported Ferrari for ages...... stay with Mercedes, we can't afford for you to be a Ferrari fan!

Once again, you have taken unsupported word and used it to rant against Ferrari. You have taken unsupported word and treated it as "fact" that Ferrari is cheating. Yet, when Mercedes or Lewis are the victims of such unsupported word, you defend them vigorously, to say the least.

If this turns out to be more than just rumor or media frenzy, then you can rant legitimately. Of course, if you do, try not to blow it into the biggest cheating scandal in the history of F1.
;)

edited by Blake for grammar purposes.

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Last edited by Blake on Thu May 17, 2018 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well there is plenty of smoke from numerous sources, and with this particular post I was answering how it may affect them.

No, you didn't say how it MAY affect them, you said they were using it to cheat in qualifying and it will affect them. I've highlighted it for you as well.

Come on Poker, you are being unfair to say the least, if not biased. Wait for the FIA's clarification at least before you shoot them down.

This is what's been said that they were bypassing the cheat sensor so they had 20hp extra for qualifying, maybe the only actual confirmation will be Ferrari's about turn on the new aero regs?


Can you actually see the difference? Between "being said" to "they were using it"? "What's being said" is not proof.

There is an investigation going on, based only on other teams going to the FIA and asking them about it, so if the car has passed the FIA's scrutiny so far, having some teams moan does not constitute evidence. Let's just wait and see before we damn them.

Plus, Zoue is correct in being sceptical on how did the other teams get such an insight, but that's another topic I guess.

Don't they use GPS and sound equipment to evaluate the performance of the cars, they are able to see how fast the cars are accelerating and get an overall idea about the output of the PU's?

Who do you mean? That they use GPS?

You are trying to shift the conversation, that's fine, understandable. You could just accept that you are jumping the gun here and wait until we find out if Ferrari is doing anything wrong and if any action is being taken against them. Until then, I'd suggest that you stop judging them on a speculation.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Someone has said something on the internet and the usual suspect are up in arms.

Not just someone is it, various people.

In the video by Marc Priestly in another thread he mentioned that Mercedes' performance dropped after Australia at least in part because the FIA found something in their engine management that they deemed questionable and Mercedes were "asked" to remove it. I'm just wondering why you aren't in arms about that, too. Or is it just when Ferrari are in the spotlight that you feel action should be taken?

I go back to what you said about exploiting grey areas as opposed to out and out cheating.

It didn't go into that much detail. How do you know?


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
The only actual confirmation would be the FIA saying they were doing it. Ferrari suddenly changing their stance on the new regulations in no way confirms that they were ever cheating, let alone in that particular way.

If true I would say it's quite a serious matter in which given that it's Ferrari perhaps for the benefit of the sport a certain amount of diplomacy might be advised.

I'm not going to question that, but how does the fact that it would be serious if they were cheating means they are? Sure, if they were it's a major thing, but that's a bit like the old Hillary Clinton sex ring in the basement of a pizza hut - if it was true it would be really terrible, but it was total bull. What's to say this isn't? Just because they might cover it up if it's true doesn't mean it is true and they're covering it up.

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:04 am 
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Wow 20bhp boost is a lot. No doubt other teams are interested to know how Ferrari is doing it. RBR especially, always moaning about lack of power. It is good that Mclaren have stopped for now anyways lol

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:01 am 
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IF.... IF... Ferrari is doing it

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:27 am 
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Siao7 wrote:

So if you can't beat them then cheat? That's straight out of the Justin Gatlin book of sporting morals.

I don't think paul_gmb supports cheating nor does he say that it is ok to cheat, how did you get to that conclusion? He only mentions that it was a great season as the racing was great.

I can't speak for him of course![/quote]

He says that even if the Bennetton was using traction control (cheating) then it's fine as it was a close season. Not much of a stretch. No biggie really, just a strange way to look at things I think.[/quote]

I agree no biggie, but I don't think I read it the same way as you. He doesn't say that cheating is fine itself; only that the season was great racing, even if it was the result of (alleged let's not forget) cheating.

Anyway, semantics![/quote]

yep, I just said it was a great season. Looking back on it, even though I really supported Damon to the end, it was a great season.

I don't remember it for the cheating part. But it is only my view. I can't say it is the correct way of seeing things.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:25 am 
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Very fine line between pushing rules to the limit and cheating, to discourage the latter you need to make breaking the rules painful, something that the FIA is pretty weak about in my view. Fines are ineffective, the only thing that would keep team in line would be points deduction.

How many times in the history of F1 has this happened? You can't blame Ferrari for pushing the limits but even if they have did all they will get is a "slapped wrist".


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:20 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If a team is bending the rules or pushing the boundaries a bit far, then generally I have no problem with that. Often it's down to rule interpretation and then there's an argument for saying the rules should be better defined. Example for that might be the recent Ferrari mirror design.

However, if a team is acting with a deliberate intent to bypass the rules entirely, then as far as I'm concerned that's cheating and strong sanctions should be imposed (can't think what at the moment, I guess it depends on the severity). Example for that might be the VAG emission scandal, where software was programmed to deliberately defraud the control process. I'm not an engineer, so don't know if the OP example is a consequence of something else or straightforward cheating, but if the latter then I'm afraid they would need to be brought to task

VAG didn't bend rules, they simply cheated. In fact there is no such a thing as bending rules. Something is either legal or not. Remember double diffuses? At the beginning people though it was bending rules, then later it became norm since every car had it because it was simply legal. There were many devices like that.

I don't think you read my post properly, as you'll see that I specifically separated those who are bending the rules and those like VAG who cheated.

I think the rest of your post is getting into semantics territory. If the rules aren't written well and allow ambiguity, then taking advantage of that ambiguity isn't cheating in my book. However if someone does something with the deliberate intention of circumventing the rules - VAG again - then that's clearly cheating, not misinterpretation. I think it's quite easy to differentiate the two.

Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.


Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:51 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If a team is bending the rules or pushing the boundaries a bit far, then generally I have no problem with that. Often it's down to rule interpretation and then there's an argument for saying the rules should be better defined. Example for that might be the recent Ferrari mirror design.

However, if a team is acting with a deliberate intent to bypass the rules entirely, then as far as I'm concerned that's cheating and strong sanctions should be imposed (can't think what at the moment, I guess it depends on the severity). Example for that might be the VAG emission scandal, where software was programmed to deliberately defraud the control process. I'm not an engineer, so don't know if the OP example is a consequence of something else or straightforward cheating, but if the latter then I'm afraid they would need to be brought to task

VAG didn't bend rules, they simply cheated. In fact there is no such a thing as bending rules. Something is either legal or not. Remember double diffuses? At the beginning people though it was bending rules, then later it became norm since every car had it because it was simply legal. There were many devices like that.

I don't think you read my post properly, as you'll see that I specifically separated those who are bending the rules and those like VAG who cheated.

I think the rest of your post is getting into semantics territory. If the rules aren't written well and allow ambiguity, then taking advantage of that ambiguity isn't cheating in my book. However if someone does something with the deliberate intention of circumventing the rules - VAG again - then that's clearly cheating, not misinterpretation. I think it's quite easy to differentiate the two.

Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.


Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.


Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:55 am 
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To be fair to Ferrari I'd suggest that if a team wasn't on the limit of the rules and being checked over irregularities then they aren't pushing hard enough; unless they are found to be and punished for breaking the rules they have done nothing truly wrong. I do however feel the FIA should have told them their mirror winglets were illegal in Thursday scrutineering in Spain, I'm sure Ferrari could have got the parts over in time to revert to the old mirrors if they didn't have them available immediately (for this I blame the FIA not Ferrari though)

Williams, Benneton, Red Bull, Mercedes, McLaren have all had rule clarifications and/or changes to scrutineering checks made that mean they have had to alter their cars to fit with these.

I've not been a Ferrari fan since Alesi and Berger stopped racing for them (though did support Eddie, Rubens and now Kimi regardless), their consistent whining, leave threats and the veto they have doesn't help matters.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:18 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
VAG didn't bend rules, they simply cheated. In fact there is no such a thing as bending rules. Something is either legal or not. Remember double diffuses? At the beginning people though it was bending rules, then later it became norm since every car had it because it was simply legal. There were many devices like that.

I don't think you read my post properly, as you'll see that I specifically separated those who are bending the rules and those like VAG who cheated.

I think the rest of your post is getting into semantics territory. If the rules aren't written well and allow ambiguity, then taking advantage of that ambiguity isn't cheating in my book. However if someone does something with the deliberate intention of circumventing the rules - VAG again - then that's clearly cheating, not misinterpretation. I think it's quite easy to differentiate the two.

Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.


Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.


Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.


The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:45 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think you read my post properly, as you'll see that I specifically separated those who are bending the rules and those like VAG who cheated.

I think the rest of your post is getting into semantics territory. If the rules aren't written well and allow ambiguity, then taking advantage of that ambiguity isn't cheating in my book. However if someone does something with the deliberate intention of circumventing the rules - VAG again - then that's clearly cheating, not misinterpretation. I think it's quite easy to differentiate the two.

Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.


Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.


Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.


The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.


Yeah, I know it went as far back as 2014. But I was pointing out that last year RB actually went to the FIA, drawing a comparison with this situation, of someone going to the FIA to investigate something.

I agree with everything else, I remember the FIA investigating the issue around 2015 (if I remember correctly) and finding nothing.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.


Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.


Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.


The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.


Yeah, I know it went as far back as 2014. But I was pointing out that last year RB actually went to the FIA, drawing a comparison with this situation, of someone going to the FIA to investigate something.

I agree with everything else, I remember the FIA investigating the issue around 2015 (if I remember correctly) and finding nothing.


Sorry, yeah I'm just roughly giving the backstory rather than challenging anything you wrote there, sorry if not clear.

Yeah the FIA didn't know what they were doing with the oil exactly and so started off testing if anything was being added to the oil once in the car (Spain) which wasn't what was happening so they found nothing. Took them 2 years to narrow it down and start imposing oil usage limits, how many types of oil and fuel you can use (They had different oil for what session and even what circuit they were on until last year), change how the oil tanks were monitored and ban active control valves in certain parts of the engine.

Seems like it's still going on though so they haven't cracked it fully yet. Renault tried to get the limit reduced further to 0.3 which is still comfortably more than what Renault and Honda use but it was rejected at the recent Strategy Group meeting apparently.

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.


Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.


The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.


Yeah, I know it went as far back as 2014. But I was pointing out that last year RB actually went to the FIA, drawing a comparison with this situation, of someone going to the FIA to investigate something.

I agree with everything else, I remember the FIA investigating the issue around 2015 (if I remember correctly) and finding nothing.


Sorry, yeah I'm just roughly giving the backstory rather than challenging anything you wrote there, sorry if not clear.

Yeah the FIA didn't know what they were doing with the oil exactly and so started off testing if anything was being added to the oil once in the car (Spain) which wasn't what was happening so they found nothing. Took them 2 years to narrow it down and start imposing oil usage limits, how many types of oil and fuel you can use (They had different oil for what session and even what circuit they were on until last year), change how the oil tanks were monitored and ban active control valves in certain parts of the engine.

Seems like it's still going on though so they haven't cracked it fully yet. Renault tried to get the limit reduced further to 0.3 which is still comfortably more than what Renault and Honda use but it was rejected at the recent Strategy Group meeting apparently.

Yeah, no worries! I think the Renault thing you mention at the end may be because some sort of redesigning of the engines would have to take place to make them use as low as 0.3.

If I also remember correctly, Ferrari was asking if they could use two different types of oil. Which in a way makes sense as a few flying laps on Quali day do not have the same effect on the engine as a full two-hour race. They could in theory use a different, thinner (for lack of better wording) oil mixture for the Quali mode and then the normal oil for race day. This was what made people think that they use a special oil for Quali in a different tank as a boost. I may be mixing it here, this is all from memory


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:04 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
No, you didn't say how it MAY affect them, you said they were using it to cheat in qualifying and it will affect them. I've highlighted it for you as well.

Come on Poker, you are being unfair to say the least, if not biased. Wait for the FIA's clarification at least before you shoot them down.

This is what's been said that they were bypassing the cheat sensor so they had 20hp extra for qualifying, maybe the only actual confirmation will be Ferrari's about turn on the new aero regs?


Can you actually see the difference? Between "being said" to "they were using it"? "What's being said" is not proof.

There is an investigation going on, based only on other teams going to the FIA and asking them about it, so if the car has passed the FIA's scrutiny so far, having some teams moan does not constitute evidence. Let's just wait and see before we damn them.

Plus, Zoue is correct in being sceptical on how did the other teams get such an insight, but that's another topic I guess.

Don't they use GPS and sound equipment to evaluate the performance of the cars, they are able to see how fast the cars are accelerating and get an overall idea about the output of the PU's?

Who do you mean? That they use GPS?

You are trying to shift the conversation, that's fine, understandable. You could just accept that you are jumping the gun here and wait until we find out if Ferrari is doing anything wrong and if any action is being taken against them. Until then, I'd suggest that you stop judging them on a speculation.

They can see how fast cars accelerate, how do the likes of Red Bull ascertain how much hp they are down?

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:08 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Someone has said something on the internet and the usual suspect are up in arms.

Not just someone is it, various people.

In the video by Marc Priestly in another thread he mentioned that Mercedes' performance dropped after Australia at least in part because the FIA found something in their engine management that they deemed questionable and Mercedes were "asked" to remove it. I'm just wondering why you aren't in arms about that, too. Or is it just when Ferrari are in the spotlight that you feel action should be taken?

I go back to what you said about exploiting grey areas as opposed to out and out cheating.

It didn't go into that much detail. How do you know?

What was proposed is that Ferrari were using 180hp of electrical energy.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:09 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
The only actual confirmation would be the FIA saying they were doing it. Ferrari suddenly changing their stance on the new regulations in no way confirms that they were ever cheating, let alone in that particular way.

If true I would say it's quite a serious matter in which given that it's Ferrari perhaps for the benefit of the sport a certain amount of diplomacy might be advised.

I'm not going to question that, but how does the fact that it would be serious if they were cheating means they are? Sure, if they were it's a major thing, but that's a bit like the old Hillary Clinton sex ring in the basement of a pizza hut - if it was true it would be really terrible, but it was total bull. What's to say this isn't? Just because they might cover it up if it's true doesn't mean it is true and they're covering it up.

Obviously I know nothing personally but people who make a living out of F1 are putting it out there.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:14 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If a team is bending the rules or pushing the boundaries a bit far, then generally I have no problem with that. Often it's down to rule interpretation and then there's an argument for saying the rules should be better defined. Example for that might be the recent Ferrari mirror design.

However, if a team is acting with a deliberate intent to bypass the rules entirely, then as far as I'm concerned that's cheating and strong sanctions should be imposed (can't think what at the moment, I guess it depends on the severity). Example for that might be the VAG emission scandal, where software was programmed to deliberately defraud the control process. I'm not an engineer, so don't know if the OP example is a consequence of something else or straightforward cheating, but if the latter then I'm afraid they would need to be brought to task

VAG didn't bend rules, they simply cheated. In fact there is no such a thing as bending rules. Something is either legal or not. Remember double diffuses? At the beginning people though it was bending rules, then later it became norm since every car had it because it was simply legal. There were many devices like that.

I don't think you read my post properly, as you'll see that I specifically separated those who are bending the rules and those like VAG who cheated.

I think the rest of your post is getting into semantics territory. If the rules aren't written well and allow ambiguity, then taking advantage of that ambiguity isn't cheating in my book. However if someone does something with the deliberate intention of circumventing the rules - VAG again - then that's clearly cheating, not misinterpretation. I think it's quite easy to differentiate the two.

Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.


Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.

We are not talking about a grey area here though we are talking about a FIA sensor that monitors that the electrical energy being used doesn't exceed 160hp being bypassed by Ferrari, if true?

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:17 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think you read my post properly, as you'll see that I specifically separated those who are bending the rules and those like VAG who cheated.

I think the rest of your post is getting into semantics territory. If the rules aren't written well and allow ambiguity, then taking advantage of that ambiguity isn't cheating in my book. However if someone does something with the deliberate intention of circumventing the rules - VAG again - then that's clearly cheating, not misinterpretation. I think it's quite easy to differentiate the two.

Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.


Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.


Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.


The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:19 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
The only actual confirmation would be the FIA saying they were doing it. Ferrari suddenly changing their stance on the new regulations in no way confirms that they were ever cheating, let alone in that particular way.

If true I would say it's quite a serious matter in which given that it's Ferrari perhaps for the benefit of the sport a certain amount of diplomacy might be advised.

I'm not going to question that, but how does the fact that it would be serious if they were cheating means they are? Sure, if they were it's a major thing, but that's a bit like the old Hillary Clinton sex ring in the basement of a pizza hut - if it was true it would be really terrible, but it was total bull. What's to say this isn't? Just because they might cover it up if it's true doesn't mean it is true and they're covering it up.

Obviously I know nothing personally but people who make a living out of F1 are putting it out there.


There are people making a living out of F1 by pulling stories out of their backsides too...
;)

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:34 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Not just someone is it, various people.

In the video by Marc Priestly in another thread he mentioned that Mercedes' performance dropped after Australia at least in part because the FIA found something in their engine management that they deemed questionable and Mercedes were "asked" to remove it. I'm just wondering why you aren't in arms about that, too. Or is it just when Ferrari are in the spotlight that you feel action should be taken?

I go back to what you said about exploiting grey areas as opposed to out and out cheating.

It didn't go into that much detail. How do you know?

What was proposed is that Ferrari were using 180hp of electrical energy.

I refer to my initial question. Why are you up in arms about the Ferrari question but not the Mercedes one? After all, their performance appeared to be significantly affected by bit so it's no small thing, either.


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.


Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.


Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.


The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Not if it couldn't be proven?


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This is what's been said that they were bypassing the cheat sensor so they had 20hp extra for qualifying, maybe the only actual confirmation will be Ferrari's about turn on the new aero regs?


Can you actually see the difference? Between "being said" to "they were using it"? "What's being said" is not proof.

There is an investigation going on, based only on other teams going to the FIA and asking them about it, so if the car has passed the FIA's scrutiny so far, having some teams moan does not constitute evidence. Let's just wait and see before we damn them.

Plus, Zoue is correct in being sceptical on how did the other teams get such an insight, but that's another topic I guess.

Don't they use GPS and sound equipment to evaluate the performance of the cars, they are able to see how fast the cars are accelerating and get an overall idea about the output of the PU's?

Who do you mean? That they use GPS?

You are trying to shift the conversation, that's fine, understandable. You could just accept that you are jumping the gun here and wait until we find out if Ferrari is doing anything wrong and if any action is being taken against them. Until then, I'd suggest that you stop judging them on a speculation.

They can see how fast cars accelerate, how do the likes of Red Bull ascertain how much hp they are down?
isn't acceleration more a function of torque than hp (not an engineer, genuine question)?


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:58 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
The only actual confirmation would be the FIA saying they were doing it. Ferrari suddenly changing their stance on the new regulations in no way confirms that they were ever cheating, let alone in that particular way.

If true I would say it's quite a serious matter in which given that it's Ferrari perhaps for the benefit of the sport a certain amount of diplomacy might be advised.

I'm not going to question that, but how does the fact that it would be serious if they were cheating means they are? Sure, if they were it's a major thing, but that's a bit like the old Hillary Clinton sex ring in the basement of a pizza hut - if it was true it would be really terrible, but it was total bull. What's to say this isn't? Just because they might cover it up if it's true doesn't mean it is true and they're covering it up.

Obviously I know nothing personally but people who make a living out of F1 are putting it out there.


There are people making a living out of F1 by pulling stories out of their backsides too...
;)

Still the story is out there so why shouldn't it be discussed?

It's not like it's something said by a forumer with claims that Pirelli made tyres for Barcelona specifically for Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:01 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
In the video by Marc Priestly in another thread he mentioned that Mercedes' performance dropped after Australia at least in part because the FIA found something in their engine management that they deemed questionable and Mercedes were "asked" to remove it. I'm just wondering why you aren't in arms about that, too. Or is it just when Ferrari are in the spotlight that you feel action should be taken?

I go back to what you said about exploiting grey areas as opposed to out and out cheating.

It didn't go into that much detail. How do you know?

What was proposed is that Ferrari were using 180hp of electrical energy.

I refer to my initial question. Why are you up in arms about the Ferrari question but not the Mercedes one? After all, their performance appeared to be significantly affected by bit so it's no small thing, either.

Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:04 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.


Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.


The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?

Not if it couldn't be proven?

When did it have to be proven, Red Bull have been flagging it up for years and the FIA have investigated it and have looked to do something about it.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:08 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Can you actually see the difference? Between "being said" to "they were using it"? "What's being said" is not proof.

There is an investigation going on, based only on other teams going to the FIA and asking them about it, so if the car has passed the FIA's scrutiny so far, having some teams moan does not constitute evidence. Let's just wait and see before we damn them.

Plus, Zoue is correct in being sceptical on how did the other teams get such an insight, but that's another topic I guess.

Don't they use GPS and sound equipment to evaluate the performance of the cars, they are able to see how fast the cars are accelerating and get an overall idea about the output of the PU's?

Who do you mean? That they use GPS?

You are trying to shift the conversation, that's fine, understandable. You could just accept that you are jumping the gun here and wait until we find out if Ferrari is doing anything wrong and if any action is being taken against them. Until then, I'd suggest that you stop judging them on a speculation.

They can see how fast cars accelerate, how do the likes of Red Bull ascertain how much hp they are down?
isn't acceleration more a function of torque than hp (not an engineer, genuine question)?

Look I'm not a technical person but how do you think that teams like Red Bull are able to make determinations of how much hp they are lacking, they are able to do all sorts of measurements to know were they stand.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I go back to what you said about exploiting grey areas as opposed to out and out cheating.

It didn't go into that much detail. How do you know?

What was proposed is that Ferrari were using 180hp of electrical energy.

I refer to my initial question. Why are you up in arms about the Ferrari question but not the Mercedes one? After all, their performance appeared to be significantly affected by bit so it's no small thing, either.

Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It didn't go into that much detail. How do you know?

What was proposed is that Ferrari were using 180hp of electrical energy.

I refer to my initial question. Why are you up in arms about the Ferrari question but not the Mercedes one? After all, their performance appeared to be significantly affected by bit so it's no small thing, either.

Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What was proposed is that Ferrari were using 180hp of electrical energy.

I refer to my initial question. Why are you up in arms about the Ferrari question but not the Mercedes one? After all, their performance appeared to be significantly affected by bit so it's no small thing, either.

Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

There were rumours they were doing it illegally, just as there are rumours that Ferrari are breaching electric power limits. Point being made is both are rumours, yet it's only Ferrari's that is getting you up in arms. You need to wait until anything's been proven before getting so worked up about it


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
VAG didn't bend rules, they simply cheated. In fact there is no such a thing as bending rules. Something is either legal or not. Remember double diffuses? At the beginning people though it was bending rules, then later it became norm since every car had it because it was simply legal. There were many devices like that.

I don't think you read my post properly, as you'll see that I specifically separated those who are bending the rules and those like VAG who cheated.

I think the rest of your post is getting into semantics territory. If the rules aren't written well and allow ambiguity, then taking advantage of that ambiguity isn't cheating in my book. However if someone does something with the deliberate intention of circumventing the rules - VAG again - then that's clearly cheating, not misinterpretation. I think it's quite easy to differentiate the two.

Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.


Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.

We are not talking about a grey area here though we are talking about a FIA sensor that monitors that the electrical energy being used doesn't exceed 160hp being bypassed by Ferrari, if true?


Yes and there's a fuel flow sensor being bypassed by adding oil to the combustion process if you believe certain theories on how the oil burn could be being done.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah some things aren't taking advantage of grey areas but are just out and out cheating.


Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.


Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.


The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?


Why do that when you're behind Red Bull for the 6th year running, never mind Mercedes.? Leapfrogging Renault on the engine side is guaranteed podiums most of the time for your lead car and gets rid of Red Bull. Surely you'd just copy what Mercedes are doing to leapfrog Renault and then build on it when or where you can.

Then there's the cleverness of it. As has been found by the FIA trying in vain to stop it for 4 years and not being able to view the engine in action internally, what are Ferrari going to say? "Our new employee Cornebois says he built an illegal combustion process when he was at Mercedes but now he wants to go straight"? Be a bit awkward, no?

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Who decides which is which?

From where I'm sitting it seems to be if Mercedes are doing it then it's just clever engineering around grey areas (oil burn,hpc suspension and whatever it is MP is talking about) and if Ferrari are doing it then it's blatant cheating (oil burn,exhaust blowing and extra ers)

All passed legality checks and deemed legal during racing weekends, none dq'd and yet are treated entirely differently by some, the oil burn being the perfect example despite being the exact same thing.


Very true, I think it was RB last year that went to the FIA with this. So same scenario, a team going to the FIA with a suspicion and the FIA investigating. I also remember a very vocal journo from the Netherlands, Olav Mol I think, very respected with many "inside" connections, coming forward and saying that he was 1000% sure that the Mercs were burning oil on purpose.

But I don't think we had anyone shouting Mercs are cheaters.


The first suspicions were only about Mercedes in 2014. An engineer with Ferrari connections called Benzing wrote about Mercedes only being able to hit the peak power they were if they were circumnavigating the fuel flow or using illegal fuel but no-one really paid any attention.

Then Ferrari signed the Mercedes combustion chief Cedric Cornebois in the summer 2014. He started on Jan.1st and oil burn is being discussed on Ferrari forums just a few days later but Benzing shuts up about it from there on in. And then the FIA are testing for oil burn but only on Mercedes and Ferrari cars from Spain 2015.

It's always stemmed from Mercedes but no-one in the English speaking press cared until Ferrari started getting more from it last year in Canada and Ferrari were accused of using their auxiliary tank to top up what they were burning.

Because stealing £100 is fine if you're both doing it but God forbid one of you steals an extra 20 on top.

If it was out and out cheating then Ferrari could have protested Mercedes rather than take it to another level?


Why do that when you're behind Red Bull for the 6th year running, never mind Mercedes.? Leapfrogging Renault on the engine side is guaranteed podiums most of the time for your lead car and gets rid of Red Bull. Surely you'd just copy what Mercedes are doing to leapfrog Renault and then build on it when or where you can.

Then there's the cleverness of it. As has been found by the FIA trying in vain to stop it for 4 years and not being able to view the engine in action internally, what are Ferrari going to say? "Our new employee Cornebois says he built an illegal combustion process when he was at Mercedes but now he wants to go straight"? Be a bit awkward, no?
Not to mention Cornebois likely had restrictive covenants in his contract preventing him from disclosing Mercedes' technical info anyway


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What was proposed is that Ferrari were using 180hp of electrical energy.

I refer to my initial question. Why are you up in arms about the Ferrari question but not the Mercedes one? After all, their performance appeared to be significantly affected by bit so it's no small thing, either.

Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?


Depends on the delivery method of how the oil is introduced. Is it deliberate or just taking advantage of a natural process within the engine?

There are theories around that would have me thinking it's just engineering brilliance but there's also theories that make it sound like simple out and out cheating and circumventing the fuel flow rules.

That they both (Ferrari and Mercedes) denied it's happening at all kinda answers which one they think the fans and the FIA may lean toward.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 3:50 pm 
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I'd also like a bit more info about what they are supposed to be bypassing here?

Simple usage of 4MJ per lap was surpassed a few years ago by Ferrari and Mercedes using the unlimited H>ES>H>K route. Honda's "extra harvest" they talked about used the K>H>ES>H>K route.

The only 4MJ limit is ES>K and the SoC limit in the ES being between 0-4MJ at any time.

ES>H and back and K>H and back are entirely unlimited.

So what part are Ferrari accused of breaking here?

There was some mindbending posts on this subject on f1technical that never made me feel more dumber but it's interesting as hell. Craigy in particular had a mad theory that is entirely legal and based on Honda's extra harvest..

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewt ... 40#p733495

That post and the next few pages are great.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:04 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
What was proposed is that Ferrari were using 180hp of electrical energy.

I refer to my initial question. Why are you up in arms about the Ferrari question but not the Mercedes one? After all, their performance appeared to be significantly affected by bit so it's no small thing, either.

Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When was it ever illegal, the FIA have set a limit for oil usage, also this supposed illegal burning is also being done by Ferrari so why single out Mercedes?

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:07 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I refer to my initial question. Why are you up in arms about the Ferrari question but not the Mercedes one? After all, their performance appeared to be significantly affected by bit so it's no small thing, either.

Because the Ferrari one would be far more serious, it's one thing going into the grey areas of the regulations and another deliberately cheating a set technical limit.

If you're illegally burning more oil than you should in oder to generate more power, then how is that a grey area?

When were Mercedes doing this illegally, there's nothing illegal about engines burning oil, the Renault and Honda engines also burn oil, since there was an oil burn limit introduced have Mercedes exceeded that limit?

There were rumours they were doing it illegally, just as there are rumours that Ferrari are breaching electric power limits. Point being made is both are rumours, yet it's only Ferrari's that is getting you up in arms. You need to wait until anything's been proven before getting so worked up about it

Like I've posted Ferrari are also doing it so why single out Mercedes?

Were are the rumours that Mercedes have been doing it illegally?

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