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 Post subject: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:18 pm 
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So I understand why the teams must change tires at least once. It's so the announcers keep mentioning the Tire Manufactures name. They were getting alot of airtime when it was Goodyear/Bridgestone and then Bridgestone/Michelin. Then that went away.


Since Pirelli now bring 3 different tires to each event, why do they have to run any 1 particular tire? Why can't they run whichever 2 tires they choose? It just seems like useless over regulation.


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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Are you asking why they can't run the same tyre compound twice? Strategy. Everyone would one stop and be on the same tyres at the same time. Without the tyre deltas, overtaking would be even more infrequent.

If you're not asking that, then they already can run whichever 2 tyre compounds they wish normally. There have been races where Pirelli said 1 particular tyre must be used, but it's uncommon and circuit specific.

Have fun :)

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:11 pm 
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I thought that they had to run a specific compound at some point during a dry race whether they wanted to or not. Maybe I was just paying attention during one of the uncommon races.

Thanks for setting me straight.


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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:25 pm 
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"Pirelli nominate two mandatory sets for each car for the race (which can be of different compounds) and one further set of whichever is the softest compound that can only be used in the Q3 segment of qualifying, but the teams are free to choose the remaining 10 sets."


https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/rules-regs/tyres-and-wheels.html

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:08 pm 
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Mod Titanium wrote:
"Pirelli nominate two mandatory sets for each car for the race (which can be of different compounds) and one further set of whichever is the softest compound that can only be used in the Q3 segment of qualifying, but the teams are free to choose the remaining 10 sets."


https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/rules-regs/tyres-and-wheels.html


Good grief! Is that the wording of the rule? How complicated must they make it? The word 'mandatory' there could easily imply both of those tyres must be used in the race, no?

In normal language, Pirelli make sure the teams reserve 1 set of each of the two harder tyres for the race (one of which must be used because you have to use at least 2 compounds in a dry race). They also reserve one of the softest/fastest tyre for teams that make it to Q3. (Not sure why lower teams can't make use of that tyre but I think everyone has to give it back post Q.. would love to be wrong about that).

Considering how important tyres are, and how much they have gone on and on and on about them in recent years, it's surprising there's no graphic being updated throughout the practices and Q as to which teams have what brand new tyres left and how many laps on the used ones they haven't had to give back, no?

Have fun :)

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:07 am 
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There should be 2 tyre types at each raced - Super Hard and Super Soft - Race on!

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:09 am 
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mmi16 wrote:
There should be 2 tyre types at each raced - Super Hard and Super Soft - Race on!

:lol:

How about only Medium and Super Hard? That seems the maximum level of irony.

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:14 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
There should be 2 tyre types at each raced - Super Hard and Super Soft - Race on!

:lol:

How about only Medium and Super Hard? That seems the maximum level of irony.

With Liberty Media taking over, expect the names to be changed to something like Tough DuraMax® and MegaGrip Ultra®.

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:21 am 
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I wondered aloud during the last race why we can't just have one type of tyre.


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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:14 pm 
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jimmyj wrote:
I wondered aloud during the last race why we can't just have one type of tyre.
I think the most likely explanation is that it would be rather silly to first make tyre stops mandatory, but then only have one type of tyre.

I don't mind having two or three types, I just find mandatory tyre stops silly.

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
jimmyj wrote:
I wondered aloud during the last race why we can't just have one type of tyre.
I think the most likely explanation is that it would be rather silly to first make tyre stops mandatory, but then only have one type of tyre.

I don't mind having two or three types, I just find mandatory tyre stops silly.

Bring back tyre competition and they'll make softer tyres and different strategies happen


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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Mod Titanium wrote:
"Pirelli nominate two mandatory sets for each car for the race (which can be of different compounds) and one further set of whichever is the softest compound that can only be used in the Q3 segment of qualifying, but the teams are free to choose the remaining 10 sets."


https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/rules-regs/tyres-and-wheels.html



This is the issue i have with the tire rules "At each race the teams have access to three specifications (or compounds) of these dry-weather tires."

Pirelli have created 7 compounds but teams are only allowed 3 allocations per race. Why not allow teams to use any 3 compounds they choose to allow different strategies to be used. If one team wants all of the softest range tires at a track and do 3 pits stops then let them. If another team wants all medium ranged rubber and do 2 stops, so be it and so on.

Its like going to your favorite ice cream parlor seeing they have 31 flavors and they tell you, sorry you can only choose from these 3. Makes no sense to me

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:07 pm 
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The reason they don't allow the teams to choose what they want is, 1) the teams will try to push everything right to the limit and on occasion will probably do a "Indy 2005 Michelin" type mistake. i.e. bring tyres aren't fit because they chased a marginal gain. Which is horrible PR for Pirelli as is any type of tyre failure.
2) There is the logistics of shipping, assuming the teams didn't choose months in advance, Pirelli would be bringing double the amount of tyres to races half of which won't even be used.


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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Random thought on tyres: why not allow each team a race or two where they don't have to run the mandatory tyre compound for that race? They could pick it privately and inform the FIA, Pirelli or whoever would need to know, and then it would be revealed at the start of FP1 which (if any) teams were doing so that weekend. It could further open up strategies a little as you might have a race where one team has the ability to use a completely different strategy by not being forced to run any one specific compound of tyres.

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
The reason they don't allow the teams to choose what they want is, 1) the teams will try to push everything right to the limit and on occasion will probably do a "Indy 2005 Michelin" type mistake. i.e. bring tyres aren't fit because they chased a marginal gain. Which is horrible PR for Pirelli as is any type of tyre failure.
2) There is the logistics of shipping, assuming the teams didn't choose months in advance, Pirelli would be bringing double the amount of tyres to races half of which won't even be used.


1- teams pushing to the limit is exactly what you wanna see in racing. Thats why its called racing ;)
As for teams having a bad strategy call thats part of the risk but with risk comes reward.

2- the shipping wouldnt be any different then it is now. Teams would select the tires in advance. The difference would be the tire selections between the teams.

pirelli would still "recommend" a strategic tire strategy but if teams choose to differ from it would be up to them. A team with a aggressive tire selection would push more but in return they would have to pit more and a team who went with a more conservative tire selection would pit less. This would open up more strategy calls across the board.

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:32 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The reason they don't allow the teams to choose what they want is, 1) the teams will try to push everything right to the limit and on occasion will probably do a "Indy 2005 Michelin" type mistake. i.e. bring tyres aren't fit because they chased a marginal gain. Which is horrible PR for Pirelli as is any type of tyre failure.
2) There is the logistics of shipping, assuming the teams didn't choose months in advance, Pirelli would be bringing double the amount of tyres to races half of which won't even be used.


1- teams pushing to the limit is exactly what you wanna see in racing. Thats why its called racing ;)
As for teams having a bad strategy call thats part of the risk but with risk comes reward.

2- the shipping wouldnt be any different then it is now. Teams would select the tires in advance. The difference would be the tire selections between the teams.

pirelli would still "recommend" a strategic tire strategy but if teams choose to differ from it would be up to them. A team with a aggressive tire selection would push more but in return they would have to pit more and a team who went with a more conservative tire selection would pit less. This would open up more strategy calls across the board.

The problem with this is that the tires have changed, at least a little, from year to the next for the last few years making it hard to know which compounds will be best for them at each track.

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:43 pm 
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I get that different tyres add strategic elements such as we used to see with refueling strategy. But I guess one day before I die I'd like to see no KERS, no DRS, no fancy front wings, etc etc and just a good actual driving competition. It's not that I don't enjoy F1, frankly I love it. But I feel some of the competitive elements are contrived.

All that said, I don't think you could successfully have a plain jane type of racing due to the constant and aggressive innovation by the teams. I mean, that's their job so F1 will always have to react to new things. Very interesting discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:27 pm 
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jimmyj wrote:
But I guess one day before I die I'd like to see no KERS, no DRS, no fancy front wings, etc etc and just a good actual driving competition.
Jimmy, how did you work out you're going to die on a Monday? :? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:04 am 
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Fiki wrote:
jimmyj wrote:
But I guess one day before I die I'd like to see no KERS, no DRS, no fancy front wings, etc etc and just a good actual driving competition.
Jimmy, how did you work out you're going to die on a Monday? :? ;)


Ha ha ha ha. Lifestyle choices...


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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:18 pm 
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jimmyj wrote:
I get that different tyres add strategic elements such as we used to see with refueling strategy. But I guess one day before I die I'd like to see no KERS, no DRS, no fancy front wings, etc etc and just a good actual driving competition. It's not that I don't enjoy F1, frankly I love it. But I feel some of the competitive elements are contrived.

All that said, I don't think you could successfully have a plain jane type of racing due to the constant and aggressive innovation by the teams. I mean, that's their job so F1 will always have to react to new things. Very interesting discussion.

Of the specific thing you mentioned the only one that's contrived is DRS everything else are matters of development across the years. For good or for ill is up to the individual but part of what being the "Pinnacle of Motorsport" is having the best circuit racing cars in the world which means that it shouldn't ever be a driving competition, IMHO.

The only way to see drivers competing directly with each other, uninfluenced by the machinery, is in a spec series which is anathema to what F1 has always been.

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:34 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
jimmyj wrote:
I get that different tyres add strategic elements such as we used to see with refueling strategy. But I guess one day before I die I'd like to see no KERS, no DRS, no fancy front wings, etc etc and just a good actual driving competition. It's not that I don't enjoy F1, frankly I love it. But I feel some of the competitive elements are contrived.

All that said, I don't think you could successfully have a plain jane type of racing due to the constant and aggressive innovation by the teams. I mean, that's their job so F1 will always have to react to new things. Very interesting discussion.

Of the specific thing you mentioned the only one that's contrived is DRS everything else are matters of development across the years. For good or for ill is up to the individual but part of what being the "Pinnacle of Motorsport" is having the best circuit racing cars in the world which means that it shouldn't ever be a driving competition, IMHO.

The only way to see drivers competing directly with each other, uninfluenced by the machinery, is in a spec series which is anathema to what F1 has always been.

Yeah DRS is contrived. I'd says driver deployed KERS would add to driver skill as if it's up to them when to deploy it it could be used in attack and defence, meaning overtakes because of this are due to the driver managing it properly.
The fancy front wings seem to be part of why KERS is now part of F1, so losing those if they do make following easier and allow removal of DRS would be a good thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:54 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
jimmyj wrote:
I get that different tyres add strategic elements such as we used to see with refueling strategy. But I guess one day before I die I'd like to see no KERS, no DRS, no fancy front wings, etc etc and just a good actual driving competition. It's not that I don't enjoy F1, frankly I love it. But I feel some of the competitive elements are contrived.

All that said, I don't think you could successfully have a plain jane type of racing due to the constant and aggressive innovation by the teams. I mean, that's their job so F1 will always have to react to new things. Very interesting discussion.

Of the specific thing you mentioned the only one that's contrived is DRS everything else are matters of development across the years. For good or for ill is up to the individual but part of what being the "Pinnacle of Motorsport" is having the best circuit racing cars in the world which means that it shouldn't ever be a driving competition, IMHO.

The only way to see drivers competing directly with each other, uninfluenced by the machinery, is in a spec series which is anathema to what F1 has always been.

Yeah DRS is contrived. I'd says driver deployed KERS would add to driver skill as if it's up to them when to deploy it it could be used in attack and defence, meaning overtakes because of this are due to the driver managing it properly.
The fancy front wings seem to be part of why KERS is now part of F1, so losing those if they do make following easier and allow removal of DRS would be a good thing.

I agree about simplifying the wings. I've been an advocate for ground effects for years and think all aero work on the top of the car could stand to be simpler.

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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:27 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Tire/Pit Stop Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:05 pm 
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jimmyj wrote:
I wondered aloud during the last race why we can't just have one type of tyre.

If we only had one tyre type that could last the 200 miles of the race then we wouldn't need the 21 or more mechanics and their uniforms and equipment that come out for tire changes with 2 second pit stops. Then we would have F1 racing from it's Golden years where there were no pit stops, unless someone broke something fixable or one developed a flat tire.

The requirement for 2 different tire compounds is an attempt to introduce 'drama' into the action - and probably costs the teams about $10 MILLION a year - EACH!

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