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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:46 pm 
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I think it's fine as it is. Drivers can deal with warm up issues as they have to at the beginning of the race, and I really don't think you see a huge number of incidents after a restart.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:49 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
I'd be in favour of stopping the race. I've no idea why they all drive around at a snails pace behind a safety car, when they might as well just stop.

Either a VSC/FCY or throw a red flag. Everyone comes into the pits (parc ferme unless proven damage), the marshals can clear all the debris in perfect safety and no racing laps are lost. When we go green again, basically run a parade lap at a delta-controlled pace somewhere between VSC and full race to warm the tyres, then a safety car style restart at the end of the lap.

No more cold brakes and tyres.
No racing laps lost under SC.
Improved safety.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:41 pm 
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donr wrote:
Aren't they ditching tire warmers sometime soon anyway? So they will have cold tires after each pit stop.
If so, the drivers should become somewhat accustomed to how the cold tires react.
Pirelli may be able to do something about cold temp. performance at that point.


Shedding the tire warmers makes the most sense to me. Indycar, IMSA, Nascar, and I believe WEC all put on fine racing without the need for tire warmers. Drivers know that they have to make accommodations for cold rubber comming out of the pits or after a caution.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:52 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
I don't care that it's too slow, let the drivers handle the colder tyres, these are (some) of the worlds best drivers and should be able to handle it. What bothers me is that the SC periods seem to get longer and longer.


:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:13 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
I'd be in favour of stopping the race. I've no idea why they all drive around at a snails pace behind a safety car, when they might as well just stop.

Either a VSC/FCY or throw a red flag. Everyone comes into the pits (parc ferme unless proven damage), the marshals can clear all the debris in perfect safety and no racing laps are lost. When we go green again, basically run a parade lap at a delta-controlled pace somewhere between VSC and full race to warm the tyres, then a safety car style restart at the end of the lap.

No more cold brakes and tyres.
No racing laps lost under SC.
Improved safety.


Its mostly for TV times. If they stop the race for 10 min it runs on 10 min plus what ever restart time is needed, and you have a restart. Nice for us, but thats when most stoppages happen so is likely to be another cleanup and restart etc and another 15 min airtime.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:41 am 
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Use a LMP1 car as the safety car, that'd be cool.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:38 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Fiki wrote:
ptr250 wrote:
There's too many accidents because of "cool" tires.
F1 doesn't need a safety car in the first place, but you raise a valid point. I would say F1 needs proper tyres.

The alternative to safety car is stopping the race.


It's one of the alternatives.

What are others? I mean we have virtual safety car, but when track is being cleaned you cannot have fast cars driving around at random intervals. I mean slow for F1 car is still way too quick. Portability of pedestrian surviving collision with car moving 48km/h is around 50% and with car moving 70km/h or more is almost certain death. Sure F1 car is different than normal car, but all these wings don't make it any safer for stewards on the track.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:14 am 
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moby wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
I'd be in favour of stopping the race. I've no idea why they all drive around at a snails pace behind a safety car, when they might as well just stop.

Either a VSC/FCY or throw a red flag. Everyone comes into the pits (parc ferme unless proven damage), the marshals can clear all the debris in perfect safety and no racing laps are lost. When we go green again, basically run a parade lap at a delta-controlled pace somewhere between VSC and full race to warm the tyres, then a safety car style restart at the end of the lap.

No more cold brakes and tyres.
No racing laps lost under SC.
Improved safety.


Its mostly for TV times. If they stop the race for 10 min it runs on 10 min plus what ever restart time is needed, and you have a restart. Nice for us, but thats when most stoppages happen so is likely to be another cleanup and restart etc and another 15 min airtime.


I get that but I'd wager most broadcasting companies have a good chunk of waffle time at the end of their coverage. A lot of that, including replays of the start and incident which lead to the red flag, can be covered in the red flag period.

Plus the 'out lap' for the restart would count as a racing lap anyway and wouldn't be any slower than a lap behind a safety car, so in effect you aren't really losing any time with the restart, just the period the cars are stationary. With a red flag and a clear track, it would also be much quicker and easier to get marshals, tractors and sweepers on to clear up the mess. They could work across the entire width of the track without having to leave a big space for the cars to get through.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:33 am 
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can anyone enlighten me on how they televise American Football? I mean, the length of any game there is an estimate at best, given the number of stoppages they have, but they seem to manage. Or don't they? How do TV schedules there work?


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:17 am 
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Zoue wrote:
can anyone enlighten me on how they televise American Football? I mean, the length of any game there is an estimate at best, given the number of stoppages they have, but they seem to manage. Or don't they? How do TV schedules there work?


In Canada, and I expect the US is similar from my visits there, some sporting events simply run longer and pre-empt whatever the following program was to be. Not all though, but if it's a popular match or event they just keep at it. Each broadcaster seems to decide on their own whether or not to do it and how often. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not. Their estimates are usually quite accurate in a general sense though.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
can anyone enlighten me on how they televise American Football? I mean, the length of any game there is an estimate at best, given the number of stoppages they have, but they seem to manage. Or don't they? How do TV schedules there work?

They allot a lot of time for the games. The early games start at 1 p.m. (eastern time) and the late games at 4:00 any time that the game doesn't consume they do a post game show, show the end of another game that's running longer, show highlights of other games, show beer commercials, etc. So it's rare that they run over their time slot but if they do they'll preempt what follows. But that's for the major 'stick & ball' sports and niche sports like F1 would get cut away from most likely.

The NFL and the networks learned their lesson with the Raiders vs Jets "Heidi" game back in the late 60's before the merger of the NFL and AFL. The game was close and ran long so when the time was up east coast viewers had the movie start on time and missed Oakland scoring twice in the final minute to win. Subsequently, people lost their collective minds and there hasn't been a problem since.

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:14 pm 
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This idea is purely marketing. How about rotating safety cars? Give all the sponsors a chance. Let's have a Mercedes. Ferrari, Aston and Alfa lead the pack!


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:31 pm 
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ptr250 wrote:
This idea is purely marketing. How about rotating safety cars? Give all the sponsors a chance. Let's have a Mercedes. Ferrari, Aston and Alfa lead the pack!

What about Renault, Honda, FIAT, McLaren, Volvo, JCB, TATA, Infiniti, Mitsubishi?

(OK JCB is taking the mick but they do hold a land speed record, it's Volvo trucks not cars, TATA not TATA cars and Mitsubishi electronics not cars)

In reality they need a consistent vehicle that meets their requirements, to change this through the season will mean which car is a variable on lap times behind the safety car and cause cost issues in having more cars than necessary to do the job.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:05 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
ptr250 wrote:
This idea is purely marketing. How about rotating safety cars? Give all the sponsors a chance. Let's have a Mercedes. Ferrari, Aston and Alfa lead the pack!

What about Renault, Honda, FIAT, McLaren, Volvo, JCB, TATA, Infiniti, Mitsubishi?

(OK JCB is taking the mick but they do hold a land speed record, it's Volvo trucks not cars, TATA not TATA cars and Mitsubishi electronics not cars)

In reality they need a consistent vehicle that meets their requirements, to change this through the season will mean which car is a variable on lap times behind the safety car and cause cost issues in having more cars than necessary to do the job.


Certainly Honda, Renault and McLaren, but I don't believe Volvo or Mitsubishi sponsor F1. Doesn't Fiat still own Ferrari? Does Infiniti still sponsor RB?


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:25 pm 
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ptr250 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
ptr250 wrote:
This idea is purely marketing. How about rotating safety cars? Give all the sponsors a chance. Let's have a Mercedes. Ferrari, Aston and Alfa lead the pack!

What about Renault, Honda, FIAT, McLaren, Volvo, JCB, TATA, Infiniti, Mitsubishi?

(OK JCB is taking the mick but they do hold a land speed record, it's Volvo trucks not cars, TATA not TATA cars and Mitsubishi electronics not cars)

In reality they need a consistent vehicle that meets their requirements, to change this through the season will mean which car is a variable on lap times behind the safety car and cause cost issues in having more cars than necessary to do the job.


Certainly Honda, Renault and McLaren, but I don't believe Volvo or Mitsubishi sponsor F1. Doesn't Fiat still own Ferrari? Does Infiniti still sponsor RB?

See the brackets for Volvo and Mitsubishi.
Infiniti partner Renault and FIAT do own Ferrari and appear on their car!


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 4:52 pm 
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ptr250 wrote:
There's too many accidents because of "cool" tires.

Most other racing series in the WORLD deal with COLD tires - I thought F1 drivers were supposed to be the best in the world and they can't deal with 'cool' tires. Give me a F'n break. F1 should do away with tire warmers if they are serious about the crocodile tears they cry about the costs of F1. I suspect each team has spent $1M or more for tire warmers and the equipment necessary to operate them.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 4:59 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I thought of this during the last race as well. Mercedes may want their road car leading the pack for marketing reasons, but it's just not fast enough to keep heat in the tyres of the F1 cars. Maybe a proper GT variant?

What is the purpose of the SC? To turn laps comparable to the racing cars? NFW!

It's purpose is to bunch up the field and then circulate at a speed that will give course workers MAXIMUM work time to clear the incident that has caused the use of the SC. If the SC runs faster laps that decreases the time available to course workers to rectify the incident and causes the SC to be out for even more laps.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:13 pm 
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mmi16 wrote:
ptr250 wrote:
There's too many accidents because of "cool" tires.

Most other racing series in the WORLD deal with COLD tires - I thought F1 drivers were supposed to be the best in the world and they can't deal with 'cool' tires. Give me a F'n break. F1 should do away with tire warmers if they are serious about the crocodile tears they cry about the costs of F1. I suspect each team has spent $1M or more for tire warmers and the equipment necessary to operate them.

By all accounts if the tyres are too cold it's all but impossible for the drivers to get them back again


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
ptr250 wrote:
There's too many accidents because of "cool" tires.

Most other racing series in the WORLD deal with COLD tires - I thought F1 drivers were supposed to be the best in the world and they can't deal with 'cool' tires. Give me a F'n break. F1 should do away with tire warmers if they are serious about the crocodile tears they cry about the costs of F1. I suspect each team has spent $1M or more for tire warmers and the equipment necessary to operate them.

By all accounts if the tyres are too cold it's all but impossible for the drivers to get them back again

So the driver admit they are incompetent in getting heat in the tires! If normal track action can't get tires to operating temperatures the tires should be replaced with compounds and constructions that can get to operating temperature through their own use.

Were I Pirelli, I would run as far away from F1 and their idiotic tire demands. F1 makes it seem that the only tires Pirelli can build are defective.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:53 pm 
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mmi16 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
ptr250 wrote:
There's too many accidents because of "cool" tires.

Most other racing series in the WORLD deal with COLD tires - I thought F1 drivers were supposed to be the best in the world and they can't deal with 'cool' tires. Give me a F'n break. F1 should do away with tire warmers if they are serious about the crocodile tears they cry about the costs of F1. I suspect each team has spent $1M or more for tire warmers and the equipment necessary to operate them.

By all accounts if the tyres are too cold it's all but impossible for the drivers to get them back again

So the driver admit they are incompetent in getting heat in the tires! If normal track action can't get tires to operating temperatures the tires should be replaced with compounds and constructions that can get to operating temperature through their own use.

Were I Pirelli, I would run as far away from F1 and their idiotic tire demands. F1 makes it seem that the only tires Pirelli can build are defective.

not sure if you're being serious here. I don't know how you can blame the drivers if the tyre construction doesn't allow them to get heat into them when driving behind the SC. That's down to Pirelli


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 7:11 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
ptr250 wrote:
There's too many accidents because of "cool" tires.

Most other racing series in the WORLD deal with COLD tires - I thought F1 drivers were supposed to be the best in the world and they can't deal with 'cool' tires. Give me a F'n break. F1 should do away with tire warmers if they are serious about the crocodile tears they cry about the costs of F1. I suspect each team has spent $1M or more for tire warmers and the equipment necessary to operate them.

By all accounts if the tyres are too cold it's all but impossible for the drivers to get them back again

So the driver admit they are incompetent in getting heat in the tires! If normal track action can't get tires to operating temperatures the tires should be replaced with compounds and constructions that can get to operating temperature through their own use.

Were I Pirelli, I would run as far away from F1 and their idiotic tire demands. F1 makes it seem that the only tires Pirelli can build are defective.

not sure if you're being serious here. I don't know how you can blame the drivers if the tyre construction doesn't allow them to get heat into them when driving behind the SC. That's down to Pirelli

But surely if driving at 50% of race pace gets enough heat in to the tires to keep the grip levels then they won't last 2 minutes being driven at race pace.


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Kev627 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
By all accounts if the tyres are too cold it's all but impossible for the drivers to get them back again

So the driver admit they are incompetent in getting heat in the tires! If normal track action can't get tires to operating temperatures the tires should be replaced with compounds and constructions that can get to operating temperature through their own use.

Were I Pirelli, I would run as far away from F1 and their idiotic tire demands. F1 makes it seem that the only tires Pirelli can build are defective.

not sure if you're being serious here. I don't know how you can blame the drivers if the tyre construction doesn't allow them to get heat into them when driving behind the SC. That's down to Pirelli

But surely if driving at 50% of race pace gets enough heat in to the tires to keep the grip levels then they won't last 2 minutes being driven at race pace.

never used to be an issue. I don't think keeping tyres in the right window was ever an issue before Pirelli became sole supplier, although I'm willing to stand corrected on that one


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:25 am 
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Zoue wrote:
By all accounts if the tyres are too cold it's all but impossible for the drivers to get them back again


Agreed.

And there are reasons why. The tires themselves only offer grip at that temperature range, and if you are not up to temperature, they don't grip. Sort of a circular paradox. A good part of the blame goes back the the FIA who specified the tire characteristics, and the engineers who designed the suspension geometry.

Formula One is insanely competitive, and a car design can be an "all-or-nothing". For example, the Mercedes is a monster in clean air. But if it finds itself in dirty air, that monster transforms into a mangy dog. The engineers made the decision to make the car that way. And it is a viable strategy (witness all the recent championships) but it is not a perfect car. It is an extremely specialized car, one that runs very fast only under specific circumstances. And for that very same car, if the tires suffer a drop in temperature, that car goes from being a race winner into that mangy dog. The car designers and engineers made the conscious decision (just like for clean versus dirty air) to design a car incredibly fast in clean air and with a suspension design that does not have the ability to create enough heat in the tires.

Further back in the grid there are car designs that operate better (than the Mercedes) in dirty air, and also can get the heat back into the tires. IMO all of this falls on the car designers and the characteristics they built into the car. It is not that they are wrong, I expect the Mercedes to once again dominate. But there will be some races where conditions will inflict an environment on the Mercedes where it suffers. There will be more races where the Mercedes car works as planned, and some races where the mangy dog shows it's presence.

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 10:29 pm 
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Just to liven the show, they could have 'safety tyres' that run at lower speeds and allow the original set in use to be warmed until notice the safety car is coming it.

Incident> cars pit and out on special tyre : set in use go into warmers : Notice safety car in next lap > all dive into pits and get original set fitted but nice and warm> out ready for restart on operating temp tyres.

Dont say there is no action in F1 then :twisted:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:59 am 
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And Indycar needs better drivers. 8O Probably Marcus Ericsson's fault..


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:57 am 
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I've got it!

You know in Greyhound Racing they have a fake hare flying around on its own track at the side of the racing track? Well, imagine a cable suspended over the F1 track that goes around the circuit. They could suspend a flashing light which could whizz around at pretty much any speed they want, couldn't possibly get in the way, could travel around without flashing to any point before turning on to back cars up etc etc.

Genius. Thank me later!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:05 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
I've got it!

You know in Greyhound Racing they have a fake hare flying around on its own track at the side of the racing track? Well, imagine a cable suspended over the F1 track that goes around the circuit. They could suspend a flashing light which could whizz around at pretty much any speed they want, couldn't possibly get in the way, could travel around without flashing to any point before turning on to back cars up etc etc.

Genius. Thank me later!


I vote for a UFO-like drone.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:41 am 
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ptr250 wrote:
There's too many accidents because of "cool" tires.


Not as simple as that. A safety car is exactly that: safety. It's not just a fast car with a beefed up engine. It needs to be able to handle most conditions which include treacherous rain. This counts out about 97% of all fast cars. It also needs to be capable of slow driving without losing grip. It also can't fail or have parts flying off causing more issues. You can't just stick on some super softs to make it go faster.

There's not many options that fits the F1 remit. When other racing cars can fail often, struggle for any kind of grip in bad conditions...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Isn't part of the problem that the cars could run at a decent speed around the rest of the lap and only need to slow down for where the problem actually is, that way they could keep their tyre temps up - but the Safety Car needs to be capable of racing speeds to allow this to happen.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:12 pm 
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The safety car should be a classic F1 car - lol.


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