planetf1.com

It is currently Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:42 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think they should. Vergne wasn't too far off of Ricciardo, so he should be somewhere around Sainz level - almost certainly better than Hartley, and a lot more experienced than Gasly.

Vergne was a terrible qualifier I would be more inclined to go for their other FE Champion Buemi.


Vergne's bad qualifying makes him finishing ahead of Ricciardo in races so often all the more impressive. He's probably one of the best drivers F1's lost over the past decade.

He's sorted out his quali issues now as well.

He fell out with Red Bull though so no chance.

Vergne was a good qualifier pre-F1 as well, I'm not sure what you achieve in lower powered cars transfers to F1 unless you are believing the drivers are of equal quality?

Regarding Ricciardo this is the era of Pirelli cheese tyres were Vergne's poor qualifying often gave him the advantage of more fresh tyres for the race than Ricciardo.



The stats simply don't back that up. At the time they were driving for STR neither were qualifying in the top 10 regularly. 11 times for Ricciardo and 4 for Vergne.

In the 11 races Ricciardo qualified in the top 10 and had to start on quali tyres Vergne beat him twice.

Ricciardo beat Vergne more often when he qualified in the top 10 and was disadvantaged by starting on used tyres than he did when they both qualified outside the top 10.

I think the nuance was more so how many times Vergne didn't even qualify into Q2 whilst Ricciardo did but only started a few places further up the grid, I just remember it being said about Vergne having the advantage of fresher tyres for the race, when Ricciardo made Q3 I guess the starting advantage was just too much for Vergne to overcome?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
kleefton wrote:
Fukuzumi is also a candidate for the seat reportedly. He currently doesn't have the super license points necessary though.
I don't see Wherlein in a Toro Rosso. He is a Mercedes guy, I don't see Redbull ever agreeing to that.
Hartley is just out of his depth. It has been obvious to me since the first day he jumped in the car, so I agree he must go asap.

Fukuzumi has little chance of getting a F1 super license for next year especially.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:11 am 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
[quote="pokerman"
I think the nuance was more so how many times Vergne didn't even qualify into Q2 whilst Ricciardo did but only started a few places further up the grid, I just remember it being said about Vergne having the advantage of fresher tyres for the race, when Ricciardo made Q3 I guess the starting advantage was just too much for Vergne to overcome?[/quote]

Why would Vergne have fresher tyres if he didn't make Q2? I guess you mean he would have one extra set of new tyres. Hardly a huge advantage. I know it was said. That doesn't mean the theory stands up to any scrutiny.

But even if it did Vergne was out in Q3 6 more times than Ricciardo in their 39 races as team mates. It's still not exactly wildly significant.

IMO Vergne was clearly as good in races as Ricciardo until Red Bull announced Ricciardo for the main team. Vergne did appear to fall off after that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 9270
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vergne was a terrible qualifier I would be more inclined to go for their other FE Champion Buemi.


Vergne's bad qualifying makes him finishing ahead of Ricciardo in races so often all the more impressive. He's probably one of the best drivers F1's lost over the past decade.

He's sorted out his quali issues now as well.

He fell out with Red Bull though so no chance.

Vergne was a good qualifier pre-F1 as well, I'm not sure what you achieve in lower powered cars transfers to F1 unless you are believing the drivers are of equal quality?

Regarding Ricciardo this is the era of Pirelli cheese tyres were Vergne's poor qualifying often gave him the advantage of more fresh tyres for the race than Ricciardo.



The stats simply don't back that up. At the time they were driving for STR neither were qualifying in the top 10 regularly. 11 times for Ricciardo and 4 for Vergne.

In the 11 races Ricciardo qualified in the top 10 and had to start on quali tyres Vergne beat him twice.

Ricciardo beat Vergne more often when he qualified in the top 10 and was disadvantaged by starting on used tyres than he did when they both qualified outside the top 10.

I think the nuance was more so how many times Vergne didn't even qualify into Q2 whilst Ricciardo did but only started a few places further up the grid, I just remember it being said about Vergne having the advantage of fresher tyres for the race, when Ricciardo made Q3 I guess the starting advantage was just too much for Vergne to overcome?

That was exclusively by Ricciardo fans looking for excuses. I pointed out several times that if the extra lap(s) in quali were so much of a hindrance that you were better off qualifying worse, the teams would've opted to just not make any further runs.
I usually didn't get so much as a reply.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
[/b]

The stats simply don't back that up. At the time they were driving for STR neither were qualifying in the top 10 regularly. 11 times for Ricciardo and 4 for Vergne.

In the 11 races Ricciardo qualified in the top 10 and had to start on quali tyres Vergne beat him twice.

Ricciardo beat Vergne more often when he qualified in the top 10 and was disadvantaged by starting on used tyres than he did when they both qualified outside the top 10.

I think the nuance was more so how many times Vergne didn't even qualify into Q2 whilst Ricciardo did but only started a few places further up the grid, I just remember it being said about Vergne having the advantage of fresher tyres for the race, when Ricciardo made Q3 I guess the starting advantage was just too much for Vergne to overcome?

That was exclusively by Ricciardo fans looking for excuses. I pointed out several times that if the extra lap(s) in quali were so much of a hindrance that you were better off qualifying worse, the teams would've opted to just not make any further runs.
I usually didn't get so much as a reply.

I think that drivers would normally look to qualify as high as they can and like as been said when Ricciardo did make it to Q3 he normally beat Vergne, some drivers did opt not to qualify in Q3 because of the cheese tyres.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 4851
Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:35 pm 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
Lotus49 wrote:
Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.


The point is that it's a fallacy to suggest Vergne matched Ricciardo in races because he gained an advantage in qualifying. If he gained an advantage through qualifying behind he didn't use it so it must be something else.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 4851
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.


The point is that it's a fallacy to suggest Vergne matched Ricciardo in races because he gained an advantage in qualifying. If he gained an advantage through qualifying behind he didn't use it so it must be something else.


Yeah I wouldn't go that far but I'd still say if they happened to fall on those positions (9-12, I have no idea if they ever did or not though) then I'd say he had an advantage but obviously I've no recollection if he ever did capitalise on it so I wouldn't say the bolded, no.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.


The point is that it's a fallacy to suggest Vergne matched Ricciardo in races because he gained an advantage in qualifying. If he gained an advantage through qualifying behind he didn't use it so it must be something else.


Yeah I wouldn't go that far but I'd still say if they happened to fall on those positions (9-12, I have no idea if they ever did or not though) then I'd say he had an advantage but obviously I've no recollection if he ever did capitalise on it so I wouldn't say the bolded, no.

Another thing that has to be factored in is that Vergne was so much better than Ricciardo in the wet, I remember Vergne scoring some good points in the wet, with points being quite hard to come by for the STR drivers that has quite a weighting as well.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
Just checked 2012, Vergne finished 4 times in the points as opposed to 6 times for Ricciardo but everytime Vergne finished 8th whereas Ricciardo scored 9th and 10th place finishes so scored 6 less points.

Two of Vergne's 8th placed finished were in the wet, one he outqualified Ricciardo and the other qualified just one place behind Ricciardo so in fact in the points scoring races he wasn't handicapped by poor qualifying as such.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:49 am
Posts: 855
Vergne in the wet is a myth - most were due to luck


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
F1Oz wrote:
Vergne in the wet is a myth - most were due to luck

It wasn't luck that he was better than Ricciardo in the wet.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:42 pm 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
F1Oz wrote:
Vergne in the wet is a myth - most were due to luck


What backs that statement up?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 1875
Location: Miami, Florida
So with rumblings of Mercedes trying to get George Russell into Williams, does that mean they've completely shut the door on Wehrlein??!?

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:24 pm 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So with rumblings of Mercedes trying to get George Russell into Williams, does that mean they've completely shut the door on Wehrlein??!?


As far as F1 goes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:47 pm
Posts: 3028
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So with rumblings of Mercedes trying to get George Russell into Williams, does that mean they've completely shut the door on Wehrlein??!?


As far as F1 goes.


I speculated on this back before Wehrlein even lost his Sauber seat, that if he found himself out of F1 this year, there was a possibility George Russell could actually be ahead of him in the Mercedes pecking order by the end of 2018. Admittedly I didn't expect Russell to be the frontrunner to win the F2 title as soon as this year, but if he does then he's definitely jumping Wehrlein as the more likely to get an F1 seat if Mercedes can secure one for one of them.

Wehrlein's only real hope would be Norris beating Russell to the F2 title so that Mercedes have the option of Russell staying in F2 for 2019 (ditto Vandoorne and Norris, although that might be a moot point if Alonso decides to stay and they sign Sainz - but that's a different discussion altogether!) and getting Wehrlein into the seat instead. But even now I think Russell's F2 performances have been strong enough for him to get the nod regardless of whether he wins the F2 title or not.

_________________
Pick 10 | 1st x2, 2nd x3, 3rd x7
2018: 11th | 2017: 6th | 2016: 8th | 2015: 2nd | 2014: 15th | 2013: 17th | 2012: 11th


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:49 am
Posts: 855
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.


The point is that it's a fallacy to suggest Vergne matched Ricciardo in races because he gained an advantage in qualifying. If he gained an advantage through qualifying behind he didn't use it so it must be something else.


Yeah I wouldn't go that far but I'd still say if they happened to fall on those positions (9-12, I have no idea if they ever did or not though) then I'd say he had an advantage but obviously I've no recollection if he ever did capitalise on it so I wouldn't say the bolded, no.

Another thing that has to be factored in is that Vergne was so much better than Ricciardo in the wet, I remember Vergne scoring some good points in the wet, with points being quite hard to come by for the STR drivers that has quite a weighting as well.


Oh Pleeease - It's a myth - Vergne was not so much better in the wet - he had some luck - had some timing issues - had some set up benefits - but it was fairly even with Vergne better at times (yes) but Ricciardo better at other times.

A bit like the fantastic Verstappen in the wet in Brazil - when Dan had the wrong wing setting - and then when dan had the pitstop - he caught up and almost passed Verstappen so was 'better' when they both had the same settings - some of these comments are overrated.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:29 pm 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
F1Oz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.


The point is that it's a fallacy to suggest Vergne matched Ricciardo in races because he gained an advantage in qualifying. If he gained an advantage through qualifying behind he didn't use it so it must be something else.


Yeah I wouldn't go that far but I'd still say if they happened to fall on those positions (9-12, I have no idea if they ever did or not though) then I'd say he had an advantage but obviously I've no recollection if he ever did capitalise on it so I wouldn't say the bolded, no.

Another thing that has to be factored in is that Vergne was so much better than Ricciardo in the wet, I remember Vergne scoring some good points in the wet, with points being quite hard to come by for the STR drivers that has quite a weighting as well.


Oh Pleeease - It's a myth - Vergne was not so much better in the wet - he had some luck - had some timing issues - had some set up benefits - but it was fairly even with Vergne better at times (yes) but Ricciardo better at other times.

A bit like the fantastic Verstappen in the wet in Brazil - when Dan had the wrong wing setting - and then when dan had the pitstop - he caught up and almost passed Verstappen so was 'better' when they both had the same settings - some of these comments are overrated.


What was there quali comparison like in the wet?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So with rumblings of Mercedes trying to get George Russell into Williams, does that mean they've completely shut the door on Wehrlein??!?

Wehrlein who?

Well if it wasn't shut before Leclerc's performances against Ericsson probably nailed it shut.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
F1Oz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.


The point is that it's a fallacy to suggest Vergne matched Ricciardo in races because he gained an advantage in qualifying. If he gained an advantage through qualifying behind he didn't use it so it must be something else.


Yeah I wouldn't go that far but I'd still say if they happened to fall on those positions (9-12, I have no idea if they ever did or not though) then I'd say he had an advantage but obviously I've no recollection if he ever did capitalise on it so I wouldn't say the bolded, no.

Another thing that has to be factored in is that Vergne was so much better than Ricciardo in the wet, I remember Vergne scoring some good points in the wet, with points being quite hard to come by for the STR drivers that has quite a weighting as well.


Oh Pleeease - It's a myth - Vergne was not so much better in the wet - he had some luck - had some timing issues - had some set up benefits - but it was fairly even with Vergne better at times (yes) but Ricciardo better at other times.

A bit like the fantastic Verstappen in the wet in Brazil - when Dan had the wrong wing setting - and then when dan had the pitstop - he caught up and almost passed Verstappen so was 'better' when they both had the same settings - some of these comments are overrated.

My memory woudn't be the best as to why Ricciardo ended up right behind Verstappen, but I do remember Verstappen driving away from Ricciardo with Ricciardo's excuse being a fogged up visor so I wouldn't view that as any kind of proof in respect to Ricciardo.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:07 pm 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So with rumblings of Mercedes trying to get George Russell into Williams, does that mean they've completely shut the door on Wehrlein??!?

Wehrlein who?

Well if it wasn't shut before Leclerc's performances against Ericsson probably nailed it shut.


Not much different tbf. The Sauber is just a better car now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2368
F1Oz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.


The point is that it's a fallacy to suggest Vergne matched Ricciardo in races because he gained an advantage in qualifying. If he gained an advantage through qualifying behind he didn't use it so it must be something else.


Yeah I wouldn't go that far but I'd still say if they happened to fall on those positions (9-12, I have no idea if they ever did or not though) then I'd say he had an advantage but obviously I've no recollection if he ever did capitalise on it so I wouldn't say the bolded, no.

Another thing that has to be factored in is that Vergne was so much better than Ricciardo in the wet, I remember Vergne scoring some good points in the wet, with points being quite hard to come by for the STR drivers that has quite a weighting as well.


Oh Pleeease - It's a myth - Vergne was not so much better in the wet - he had some luck - had some timing issues - had some set up benefits - but it was fairly even with Vergne better at times (yes) but Ricciardo better at other times.

A bit like the fantastic Verstappen in the wet in Brazil - when Dan had the wrong wing setting - and then when dan had the pitstop - he caught up and almost passed Verstappen so was 'better' when they both had the same settings - some of these comments are overrated.


I think a lot of that Verstappen being amazing in Brazil in the rain was due to the commentators going mental when he nearly crashed but didn't quite manage it... :lol:

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5899
Location: Michigan, USA
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So with rumblings of Mercedes trying to get George Russell into Williams, does that mean they've completely shut the door on Wehrlein??!?

Wehrlein who?

Well if it wasn't shut before Leclerc's performances against Ericsson probably nailed it shut.

Not much different tbf. The Sauber is just a better car now.

Not true at all. In the qualifying head-to-head for 2017, Wehrlein beat Ericsson 11-7 with an average gap of -0.05 seconds. That's not far removed from a tie. Leclerc is up 9-3 at present (9-1 since China, when he seemed to get his footing in F1) with an average gap of -0.597 seconds (-0.760 since China).

Prior to Hungary, he had out-qualified Ericsson by at least half a second every race since Monaco. He has out-qualified Ericsson by over a second twice in dry conditions. It's a Bianchi/Chilton type situation, and on top of all that Leclerc is a rookie going up against a highly experienced driver, something you yourself have pointed out several times very rarely goes the way of the rookie.

Wehrlein looked about matched with Ericsson, slightly ahead. Leclerc looks in another league already.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 1875
Location: Miami, Florida
ALESI wrote:
I think a lot of that Verstappen being amazing in Brazil in the rain was due to the commentators going mental when he nearly crashed but didn't quite manage it... :lol:

No, that was definitely not the case. Verstappen was indeed tearing it up like no one else in the wet initially… HOWEVER!!!…

He did suffer the same fate as many others when his car suffered a strong twitch and he went around rather abruptly BUT WAS EXTREMELY FORTUNATE his car was just at the right angle and speed to keep him from smacking the inside wall. So while he was driving brilliantly, the fact that he LUCKILY didn't hit the wall after that close call in such deplorable conditions was absurdly exaggerated by the commentators as brilliance, which it most certainly was not.

And while that was a lucky moment, it's undeniable that Verstappen has been considerably better that Ricciardo in the wet.

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:32 pm 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So with rumblings of Mercedes trying to get George Russell into Williams, does that mean they've completely shut the door on Wehrlein??!?

Wehrlein who?

Well if it wasn't shut before Leclerc's performances against Ericsson probably nailed it shut.

Not much different tbf. The Sauber is just a better car now.

Not true at all. In the qualifying head-to-head for 2017, Wehrlein beat Ericsson 11-7 with an average gap of -0.05 seconds. That's not far removed from a tie. Leclerc is up 9-3 at present (9-1 since China, when he seemed to get his footing in F1) with an average gap of -0.597 seconds (-0.760 since China).

Prior to Hungary, he had out-qualified Ericsson by at least half a second every race since Monaco. He has out-qualified Ericsson by over a second twice in dry conditions. It's a Bianchi/Chilton type situation, and on top of all that Leclerc is a rookie going up against a highly experienced driver, something you yourself have pointed out several times very rarely goes the way of the rookie.

Wehrlein looked about matched with Ericsson, slightly ahead. Leclerc looks in another league already.


Sure Leclerc is way better in quali but points are handed out in races.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 1875
Location: Miami, Florida
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So with rumblings of Mercedes trying to get George Russell into Williams, does that mean they've completely shut the door on Wehrlein??!?

Wehrlein who?

Well if it wasn't shut before Leclerc's performances against Ericsson probably nailed it shut.

Not much different tbf. The Sauber is just a better car now.

Not true at all. In the qualifying head-to-head for 2017, Wehrlein beat Ericsson 11-7 with an average gap of -0.05 seconds. That's not far removed from a tie. Leclerc is up 9-3 at present (9-1 since China, when he seemed to get his footing in F1) with an average gap of -0.597 seconds (-0.760 since China).

Prior to Hungary, he had out-qualified Ericsson by at least half a second every race since Monaco. He has out-qualified Ericsson by over a second twice in dry conditions. It's a Bianchi/Chilton type situation, and on top of all that Leclerc is a rookie going up against a highly experienced driver, something you yourself have pointed out several times very rarely goes the way of the rookie.

Wehrlein looked about matched with Ericsson, slightly ahead. Leclerc looks in another league already.

While that may be the case, you also have to factor in that when cars are less "good" the gap between drivers tends to tighten up because both are fighting its limitations or shortcomings similarly.
So a gap of .05 in a difficult car can very well translate into a .5 second gap in a better handling car. Why? Because when a driver isn't trying to do his best while fighting the car, they can get on with just driving the car to its limit, which would more than likely increase the gap between the drivers.

Imagine Alonso vs Sirotkin in the current Williams and then drop them both in the Mercedes. While Alonso would easily be faster in the Williams, the mercedes' superior performance would allow him to just find the limit, and his limit is far greater than Sirotkin could ever hope his is.

So the tighter gap between Wehrlein and Ericson doesn't necessarily mean that Leclerc is that much better than Wehrlein. Put Wehrlein in with Leclerc and you might be surprised to see them besting one another regularly.

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So with rumblings of Mercedes trying to get George Russell into Williams, does that mean they've completely shut the door on Wehrlein??!?

Wehrlein who?

Well if it wasn't shut before Leclerc's performances against Ericsson probably nailed it shut.


Not much different tbf. The Sauber is just a better car now.

The qualifying difference in particularly is far different.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So with rumblings of Mercedes trying to get George Russell into Williams, does that mean they've completely shut the door on Wehrlein??!?

Wehrlein who?

Well if it wasn't shut before Leclerc's performances against Ericsson probably nailed it shut.

Not much different tbf. The Sauber is just a better car now.

Not true at all. In the qualifying head-to-head for 2017, Wehrlein beat Ericsson 11-7 with an average gap of -0.05 seconds. That's not far removed from a tie. Leclerc is up 9-3 at present (9-1 since China, when he seemed to get his footing in F1) with an average gap of -0.597 seconds (-0.760 since China).

Prior to Hungary, he had out-qualified Ericsson by at least half a second every race since Monaco. He has out-qualified Ericsson by over a second twice in dry conditions. It's a Bianchi/Chilton type situation, and on top of all that Leclerc is a rookie going up against a highly experienced driver, something you yourself have pointed out several times very rarely goes the way of the rookie.

Wehrlein looked about matched with Ericsson, slightly ahead. Leclerc looks in another league already.


Sure Leclerc is way better in quali but points are handed out in races.

Leclerc doesn't seem to be doing that bad in the races, also back to qualifying, qualifying well is very important and I would think a consideration for the top teams?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:03 am 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
pokerman wrote:
Leclerc doesn't seem to be doing that bad in the races, also back to qualifying, qualifying well is very important and I would think a consideration for the top teams?


Sure but I was not talking about how the performances would be perceived by other teams.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5899
Location: Michigan, USA
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Leclerc doesn't seem to be doing that bad in the races, also back to qualifying, qualifying well is very important and I would think a consideration for the top teams?

Sure but I was not talking about how the performances would be perceived by other teams.

Qualifying is the best measure of pure speed we have, particularly for a rookie driver. Racecraft, tyre management, etc. can be learned, but raw pace generally is either there or it isn't. For Leclerc to be out-qualifying Ericsson by such a margin shows that he has huge potential, which is what the top teams want. Look at Verstappen - they were all fighting over him when he was completely ragged around the edges, and that was because they saw the raw speed he had. They knew it could be refined with time, whereas Sainz - the more refined racer - simply didn't have as much.

Ericsson is more like a Markelov type, only in F1 instead of F2: he gets good results in the races due to good tyre management and a lot of experience at this point. Leclerc will get that experience, but he has the speed now - something Wehrlein was unable to prove by not looking dramatically faster than Ericsson.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3408
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So with rumblings of Mercedes trying to get George Russell into Williams, does that mean they've completely shut the door on Wehrlein??!?

Wehrlein who?

Well if it wasn't shut before Leclerc's performances against Ericsson probably nailed it shut.

Not much different tbf. The Sauber is just a better car now.

Not true at all. In the qualifying head-to-head for 2017, Wehrlein beat Ericsson 11-7 with an average gap of -0.05 seconds. That's not far removed from a tie. Leclerc is up 9-3 at present (9-1 since China, when he seemed to get his footing in F1) with an average gap of -0.597 seconds (-0.760 since China).

Prior to Hungary, he had out-qualified Ericsson by at least half a second every race since Monaco. He has out-qualified Ericsson by over a second twice in dry conditions. It's a Bianchi/Chilton type situation, and on top of all that Leclerc is a rookie going up against a highly experienced driver, something you yourself have pointed out several times very rarely goes the way of the rookie.

Wehrlein looked about matched with Ericsson, slightly ahead. Leclerc looks in another league already.

While that may be the case, you also have to factor in that when cars are less "good" the gap between drivers tends to tighten up because both are fighting its limitations or shortcomings similarly.
So a gap of .05 in a difficult car can very well translate into a .5 second gap in a better handling car. Why? Because when a driver isn't trying to do his best while fighting the car, they can get on with just driving the car to its limit, which would more than likely increase the gap between the drivers.

Imagine Alonso vs Sirotkin in the current Williams and then drop them both in the Mercedes. While Alonso would easily be faster in the Williams, the mercedes' superior performance would allow him to just find the limit, and his limit is far greater than Sirotkin could ever hope his is.

So the tighter gap between Wehrlein and Ericson doesn't necessarily mean that Leclerc is that much better than Wehrlein. Put Wehrlein in with Leclerc and you might be surprised to see them besting one another regularly.


Interesting. I would think that the lesser drivers would perform better in a better car as it would be easier to get to the limit, and hence would be closer to their more highly rated teammate. But I guess it also depends on the type of driver and the specific characteristics of the car. Some drivers are less sensitive to car problems, i.e. Alonso, Schumacher... And a bad car is not necessarily difficult to drive, it may have perfect balance, but lacks aero efficiency or engine power etc...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Leclerc doesn't seem to be doing that bad in the races, also back to qualifying, qualifying well is very important and I would think a consideration for the top teams?


Sure but I was not talking about how the performances would be perceived by other teams.

Unless you have followed the Sauber races to the nth degree these past 2 seasons I'm not sure how you can make an accurate comparison?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 4515
I still highly rate Wehrlein, so pitiful that he does not have race seat. F1 needs at least 2 more teams to give younger drivers opportunity to race.

_________________
The end is near


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:12 am 
Online

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 2033
Lt. Drebin wrote:
F1 needs at least 2 more teams to give younger drivers opportunity to race.


:thumbup:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27902
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I still highly rate Wehrlein, so pitiful that he does not have race seat. F1 needs at least 2 more teams to give younger drivers opportunity to race.

I believe that's the plan going forward from 2021, things like budget caps and fairer distribution of prize money is all key to that.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Posts: 812
Location: India
Hartley has to perform well in second half. But he has been unlucky this year IMO. Last race also he missed a good chance.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2018/8/the-rookie--brendon-hartley-on-his-second-f1-point--the-budapest.html

_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM9-GK3MeLI


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mikeyg123, Option or Prime, Paolo_Lasardi and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group