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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:49 am 
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The FIA has made the following technical changes for 2019 to boost overtaking:

- Simplified front wing, with a larger span, and low outwash potential
- Simplified front brake duct with no winglets
- Wider and deeper rear wing

F1 Commission rules require only four of the current ten teams to vote in favour of a regulation change if the FIA, F1, sponsor and promoter representatives agree to the amendment.

It's been reported Ferrari, Red Bull, Renault, McLaren, Toro Rosso and Haas were against the changes, while Mercedes, Williams, Force India and Sauber apparently voted yes.

More changes could be brought in.

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-formula-one-world-championship-2019-technical-regulations-regarding-aerodynamic-changes

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:53 am 
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This is encouraging.

Good news

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:57 am 
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I thought wider deeper rear wings would hinder overtakeing...


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 8:47 am 
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Are the problems with overtaking really an issue with current aero rules or the tracks the races are happening on?

There was a typical reaction after Melbourne about how overtaking was difficult and was bad for the show. Melbourne has traditionally been very difficult to overtake on and Im not convinced these rules are going to fix them.

After Melbourne we were at Bahrain, China and Baku and there were absolutely no problems with overtaking.

We next go to Barcelona where we should have a procession because the track layout doesn’t promote overtaking for modern F1 cars.

Secondly the race pace between the top 6 cars is very close. If everyone is there on similar fuel loads and similarly aged tires, no overtaking ia going to happen regardless of the Aero rules.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 8:57 am 
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Good news I think.

I'm in shock, Sauber and Ferrari voting against each other!


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:47 am 
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www.jamesallenonf1.com/2018/05/aero-cha ... -for-2019/

Formula One’s Managing Director (Motorsports) Ross Brawn highlighted the incident between Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen as an example of the current aerodynamic issues facing the sport.

“One of the key episodes of the Azerbaijan Grand Prix was the collision between team mates Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen,” said Brawn. “I don’t want to comment on who might be held responsible or how a team should manage these issues during a race, but I do think the Steward’s decision to reprimand both drivers was the right course of action. But I would like to highlight a technical point.

“Once Daniel had settled for his line, and Max had changed direction once more, the Australian suddenly had to cope with a car that was very light at the front end due to the turbulent air generated by the leading Red Bull.

“In these conditions Daniel was no more than a passenger with few, if any, options to manage the situation: he could not change direction and the hard braking he tried would have had little chance of success.

“This highlighted once more the need of finding a way to re-write the rules so as to make the cars more raceable in these conditions. The decision of the Strategy Group and the F1 Commission taken yesterday, sanctioned by the FIA World Motor Sport Council, to approve a number of aerodynamic modifications, aimed at promoting closer racing and more overtaking, to the cars already for 2019 season is definitely an important step in the right direction.”

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:29 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2018/05/aero-changes-to-promote-f1-overtaking-to-be-brought-in-for-2019/

Formula One’s Managing Director (Motorsports) Ross Brawn highlighted the incident between Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen as an example of the current aerodynamic issues facing the sport.

“One of the key episodes of the Azerbaijan Grand Prix was the collision between team mates Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen,” said Brawn. “I don’t want to comment on who might be held responsible or how a team should manage these issues during a race, but I do think the Steward’s decision to reprimand both drivers was the right course of action. But I would like to highlight a technical point.

“Once Daniel had settled for his line, and Max had changed direction once more, the Australian suddenly had to cope with a car that was very light at the front end due to the turbulent air generated by the leading Red Bull.

“In these conditions Daniel was no more than a passenger with few, if any, options to manage the situation: he could not change direction and the hard braking he tried would have had little chance of success.


“This highlighted once more the need of finding a way to re-write the rules so as to make the cars more raceable in these conditions. The decision of the Strategy Group and the F1 Commission taken yesterday, sanctioned by the FIA World Motor Sport Council, to approve a number of aerodynamic modifications, aimed at promoting closer racing and more overtaking, to the cars already for 2019 season is definitely an important step in the right direction.”


Knowing the highlighted, the stewards still came to the terrible decision they did.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:32 am 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2018/05/aero-changes-to-promote-f1-overtaking-to-be-brought-in-for-2019/

Formula One’s Managing Director (Motorsports) Ross Brawn highlighted the incident between Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen as an example of the current aerodynamic issues facing the sport.

“One of the key episodes of the Azerbaijan Grand Prix was the collision between team mates Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen,” said Brawn. “I don’t want to comment on who might be held responsible or how a team should manage these issues during a race, but I do think the Steward’s decision to reprimand both drivers was the right course of action. But I would like to highlight a technical point.

“Once Daniel had settled for his line, and Max had changed direction once more, the Australian suddenly had to cope with a car that was very light at the front end due to the turbulent air generated by the leading Red Bull.

“In these conditions Daniel was no more than a passenger with few, if any, options to manage the situation: he could not change direction and the hard braking he tried would have had little chance of success.


“This highlighted once more the need of finding a way to re-write the rules so as to make the cars more raceable in these conditions. The decision of the Strategy Group and the F1 Commission taken yesterday, sanctioned by the FIA World Motor Sport Council, to approve a number of aerodynamic modifications, aimed at promoting closer racing and more overtaking, to the cars already for 2019 season is definitely an important step in the right direction.”


Knowing the highlighted, the stewards still came to the terrible decision they did.


Unfortunately Ross is not a steward. He does, however, agree with their decision, which is even more baffling!


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:33 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2018/05/aero-changes-to-promote-f1-overtaking-to-be-brought-in-for-2019/

Formula One’s Managing Director (Motorsports) Ross Brawn highlighted the incident between Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen as an example of the current aerodynamic issues facing the sport.

“One of the key episodes of the Azerbaijan Grand Prix was the collision between team mates Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen,” said Brawn. “I don’t want to comment on who might be held responsible or how a team should manage these issues during a race, but I do think the Steward’s decision to reprimand both drivers was the right course of action. But I would like to highlight a technical point.

“Once Daniel had settled for his line, and Max had changed direction once more, the Australian suddenly had to cope with a car that was very light at the front end due to the turbulent air generated by the leading Red Bull.

“In these conditions Daniel was no more than a passenger with few, if any, options to manage the situation: he could not change direction and the hard braking he tried would have had little chance of success.


“This highlighted once more the need of finding a way to re-write the rules so as to make the cars more raceable in these conditions. The decision of the Strategy Group and the F1 Commission taken yesterday, sanctioned by the FIA World Motor Sport Council, to approve a number of aerodynamic modifications, aimed at promoting closer racing and more overtaking, to the cars already for 2019 season is definitely an important step in the right direction.”


Knowing the highlighted, the stewards still came to the terrible decision they did.


Unfortunately Ross is not a steward. He does, however, agree with their decision, which is even more baffling!

That looks like typical PR speak to me. LM won't want a war with the FIA, which would probably happen if RB publicly criticizes the stewards


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:38 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2018/05/aero-changes-to-promote-f1-overtaking-to-be-brought-in-for-2019/

Formula One’s Managing Director (Motorsports) Ross Brawn highlighted the incident between Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen as an example of the current aerodynamic issues facing the sport.

“One of the key episodes of the Azerbaijan Grand Prix was the collision between team mates Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen,” said Brawn. “I don’t want to comment on who might be held responsible or how a team should manage these issues during a race, but I do think the Steward’s decision to reprimand both drivers was the right course of action. But I would like to highlight a technical point.

“Once Daniel had settled for his line, and Max had changed direction once more, the Australian suddenly had to cope with a car that was very light at the front end due to the turbulent air generated by the leading Red Bull.

“In these conditions Daniel was no more than a passenger with few, if any, options to manage the situation: he could not change direction and the hard braking he tried would have had little chance of success.


“This highlighted once more the need of finding a way to re-write the rules so as to make the cars more raceable in these conditions. The decision of the Strategy Group and the F1 Commission taken yesterday, sanctioned by the FIA World Motor Sport Council, to approve a number of aerodynamic modifications, aimed at promoting closer racing and more overtaking, to the cars already for 2019 season is definitely an important step in the right direction.”


Knowing the highlighted, the stewards still came to the terrible decision they did.


Unfortunately Ross is not a steward. He does, however, agree with their decision, which is even more baffling!

That looks like typical PR speak to me. LM won't want a war with the FIA, which would probably happen if RB publicly criticizes the stewards


Yes, I agree. Which makes it even weirder.

We know what the driver did wrong, but we punish both and let it slide... WTF?


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:54 am 
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BlackMist wrote:
Are the problems with overtaking really an issue with current aero rules or the tracks the races are happening on?



It may be to allow cars to follow and stay close reducing the need for DRS


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:55 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Good news I think.

I'm in shock, Sauber and Ferrari voting against each other!


Same. Does the Sauber have low or high rake?

Read on another forum that Mercedes could be pro these changes and Ferrari/Red Bull/McLaren against them because it hurts high rake concept cars more because they use the vortexes from the front wing to seal the floor.

Can any aero whizzes comment?

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:16 pm 
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jiminwatford wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
Are the problems with overtaking really an issue with current aero rules or the tracks the races are happening on?



It may be to allow cars to follow and stay close reducing the need for DRS

That's exactly right. F1's "overtaking problem" is really a "following problem". Yes, some tracks are always going to have less overtaking than others, but the real problems lie in the aerodynamic sensitivity of cars which produce extreme downforce, but with too little of it coming from the bottom of the car. DRS is just a bandaid.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Good news I think.

I'm in shock, Sauber and Ferrari voting against each other!


Same. Does the Sauber have low or high rake?

Read on another forum that Mercedes could be pro these changes and Ferrari/Red Bull/McLaren against them because it hurts high rake concept cars more because they use the vortexes from the front wing to seal the floor.

Can any aero whizzes comment?


Just adding my 2 cents here.

Force India has 1 of the highest rakes & was also 1 of the 4 teams to approve these changes.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:12 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Good news I think.

I'm in shock, Sauber and Ferrari voting against each other!


Same. Does the Sauber have low or high rake?

Read on another forum that Mercedes could be pro these changes and Ferrari/Red Bull/McLaren against them because it hurts high rake concept cars more because they use the vortexes from the front wing to seal the floor.

Can any aero whizzes comment?


Just adding my 2 cents here.

Force India has 1 of the highest rakes & was also 1 of the 4 teams to approve these changes.


Good point, forgot about them.

I think for cost reasons they've been pretty keen on simplifying the front wing for a while though so maybe that played a role in their thinking even if it would hurt their current car.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Good news I think.

I'm in shock, Sauber and Ferrari voting against each other!


Same. Does the Sauber have low or high rake?

Read on another forum that Mercedes could be pro these changes and Ferrari/Red Bull/McLaren against them because it hurts high rake concept cars more because they use the vortexes from the front wing to seal the floor.

Can any aero whizzes comment?


Just adding my 2 cents here.

Force India has 1 of the highest rakes & was also 1 of the 4 teams to approve these changes.


Good point, forgot about them.

I think for cost reasons they've been pretty keen on simplifying the front wing for a while though so maybe that played a role in their thinking even if it would hurt their current car.

Yeah, it's called the 2009 Regulation changes!

Image

What seems everyone has forgotten was that part of the reason the complete revamp from beautifully sculpted cars to the 2009 changes was in fact to aide cars in following one another much better and one of the main areas that was addressed were the wings. The front wings had to feature a main plane that had static specifications and could no longer feature complex bits & pieces of nicknackery (yeah I made up a word! :lol:) all over the place because they were looking to do away with as much turbulence as possible so simplifying them was the best way to curb it.

However, in 2010, all the cars began to feature little tidbits here and there and and the FIA let it roll and never did anything to curb it. So today, the front wings are far more complex than in any past era and create more downforce than ever before, but the overall design of the cars only control and/or make use of the air as it passes over and through the cars' surfaces, but once it clears the diffuser and rear wing, it is quite distorted and extremely turbulent.

The only proven way to allow the cars is well known, but for some reason the FIA will not allow its reintroduction into F1. Ground effects are being used in several top-tier series just fine and F1 would be able to do it just as well, if not better than all others and it will allow drivers to overtake on the inside or outside so long as they position themselves correctly.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:07 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
The only proven way to allow the cars is well known, but for some reason the FIA will not allow its reintroduction into F1. Ground effects are being used in several top-tier series just fine and F1 would be able to do it just as well, if not better than all others and it will allow drivers to overtake on the inside or outside so long as they position themselves correctly.

I've been a big advocate of this for a while now. It's not the 1980s anymore, and I'm pretty sure they could make the system a whole lot safer now.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 8:35 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2018/05/aero-changes-to-promote-f1-overtaking-to-be-brought-in-for-2019/

Formula One’s Managing Director (Motorsports) Ross Brawn highlighted the incident between Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen as an example of the current aerodynamic issues facing the sport.

“One of the key episodes of the Azerbaijan Grand Prix was the collision between team mates Daniel Ricciardo and Max Verstappen,” said Brawn. “I don’t want to comment on who might be held responsible or how a team should manage these issues during a race, but I do think the Steward’s decision to reprimand both drivers was the right course of action. But I would like to highlight a technical point.

“Once Daniel had settled for his line, and Max had changed direction once more, the Australian suddenly had to cope with a car that was very light at the front end due to the turbulent air generated by the leading Red Bull.

“In these conditions Daniel was no more than a passenger with few, if any, options to manage the situation: he could not change direction and the hard braking he tried would have had little chance of success.

“This highlighted once more the need of finding a way to re-write the rules so as to make the cars more raceable in these conditions. The decision of the Strategy Group and the F1 Commission taken yesterday, sanctioned by the FIA World Motor Sport Council, to approve a number of aerodynamic modifications, aimed at promoting closer racing and more overtaking, to the cars already for 2019 season is definitely an important step in the right direction.”

I would also suggest that the fast closing speed caused by over-reliance on DRS to promote overtaking was a factor in the collision.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 11:49 am 
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I assumed they were changing the front wings to be less sensitive to wake from the car in front. I learned today it is to reduce the wake coming out from the rear and this is what helps the following car

I don't know if everyone knew that but it didn't occur 'naturally' to me


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:44 am 
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The FIA and technical working group have been trying to boost overtaking for about 15 years now with no success.

All attempts to allow cars to run closer together without the loss of grip have come to nothing.

Short of allowing ground effect cars or making the front wing like those on an Indycar, then I can't see anything making much of a difference


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:53 am 
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jiminwatford wrote:
I assumed they were changing the front wings to be less sensitive to wake from the car in front. I learned today it is to reduce the wake coming out from the rear and this is what helps the following car

I don't know if everyone knew that but it didn't occur 'naturally' to me

The downforce generated by the underside of the car and diffuser is completely governed by the way the front wing controls the air. Id imagine the high rake cars in general produce more downforce from the underside and these regs will reduce the air going underneath therefore reducing the downforce generated. Would explain why most of these teams voted against these changes


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:58 pm 
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We'll see how much of a difference this makes. I agree with the others who have mentioned re-introducing ground effects. Things have changed so much since they were banned that I'm sure they would be safe now, and cars would be able to follow closely that way. I admit that from an aesthetic viewpoint, I actually do like the super complex front wings that we've got now -- but the racing is more important, and I'll be happy to see them go if following is improved.

Interesting that Mercedes voted for the change but Ferrari and Red Bull didn't. Williams, Force India, and Sauber probably feel that they have something to gain from such a regulation change, but I wouldn't have expected Mercedes to be in agreement. No surprise that Red Bull was against, of course.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Remmirath wrote:
Interesting that Mercedes voted for the change but Ferrari and Red Bull didn't. Williams, Force India, and Sauber probably feel that they have something to gain from such a regulation change, but I wouldn't have expected Mercedes to be in agreement. No surprise that Red Bull was against, of course.

Proof that Mercedes knows they're behind Ferrari on wing aerodynamics? :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 3:11 pm 
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A nice little video giving visuals to the new rules

https://youtu.be/BBlip10yYTQ


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:15 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Remmirath wrote:
Interesting that Mercedes voted for the change but Ferrari and Red Bull didn't. Williams, Force India, and Sauber probably feel that they have something to gain from such a regulation change, but I wouldn't have expected Mercedes to be in agreement. No surprise that Red Bull was against, of course.

Proof that Mercedes knows they're behind Ferrari on wing aerodynamics? :twisted:

Isn't it "known" that Mercedes probably have even more troubles in dirty air than the other teams? They've been good at building pole to victory cars but not so much wheel to wheel racing ones.

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:23 am 
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jiminwatford wrote:
A nice little video giving visuals to the new rules

https://youtu.be/BBlip10yYTQ

Nice video, although I don't really like that they're widening the front wing even further and that they're giving even more effect to the DRS.

I'd rather have them partially cover the front wheels than widening the wings.

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:10 am 
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Horner on the changes for next year:

"The regulations have been rushed through, a lot of them are in conflict with existing regulations, so there's going to be a meeting on Sunday to tidy it up, whether that's achievable or not.

"The problem is that it's very immature research, it's focused on 2021, and so there's no guarantees that it's going to have the desired impact that's required. Cherry-picking invariably never works.

"But in the meantime it's a completely new car, because obviously the front wing dictates everything that goes over the car.
"So everything changes for next year. The cost involved in that is absolutely enormous.
"For some of the smaller teams it's going to have a much bigger impact fiscally."


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/135938/horner-stunned-immature-2019-changes-passed

He does appear to have a point about the cost. The front wing design does dictate an awful lot on the car, so teams are going to have to make a complete overhaul, just for a couple of years until 2021. is this yet another example of F1 not thinking things through?


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Horner on the changes for next year:

"The regulations have been rushed through, a lot of them are in conflict with existing regulations, so there's going to be a meeting on Sunday to tidy it up, whether that's achievable or not.

"The problem is that it's very immature research, it's focused on 2021, and so there's no guarantees that it's going to have the desired impact that's required. Cherry-picking invariably never works.

"But in the meantime it's a completely new car, because obviously the front wing dictates everything that goes over the car.
"So everything changes for next year. The cost involved in that is absolutely enormous.
"For some of the smaller teams it's going to have a much bigger impact fiscally."


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/135938/horner-stunned-immature-2019-changes-passed

He does appear to have a point about the cost. The front wing design does dictate an awful lot on the car, so teams are going to have to make a complete overhaul, just for a couple of years until 2021. is this yet another example of F1 not thinking things through?


I thought it was an interesting take of his and I kind of agree with what he's saying, and this is partly why I keep banging on about how I think the sport should also be looking at ways to introduce more tactical and strategical options that allow teams more flexibility to react to situations during a race. Things like removing most if not all tyre restrictions and, I know this is unpopular, but getting rid of DRS zones and instead allowing a set time limit of DRS usage per race.

We seen how Ricciardo carved up the field at the end of the Chinese GP. He was what, 3 seconds a lap quicker that the Ferrari's and Mercs? This was solely down to strategic use of tyres. His tyre advantage was so great that it for all intents and purposes totally removed the negative effect of the aero wash from the car in front. While i'm certainly not saying I believe this would be the norm at each race, I am saying we seen an example of how introducing more strategic options could allow for racing that may diminish or even remove the impact of the leading car's aerodynamic influence on the following car.

There may be other ways to address the aerodynamic issues in the sport without spending a gazillion dollars having to totally re-design the cars.

One of Horners comments that I didn't agree with was regarding how everyone hit the panic button after the Australian GP and we've since had 3 exciting races.

As I partly mentioned above, I think what he failed to account for was that we had exciting races because of:

* Safety car influence due to accidents
* DRS
* large car speed differences due to varying strategies

He pretty much blamed the track in Melbourne for a boring race. China was on it's way to being a bit of a procession until 3 of the 4 RB drivers decided to have brain farts and while Baku has given us 2 very exciting races, from memory the first instalment was a bit of a snooze fest.

I've seen boring races at Spa & Silverstone and hell, I even remember seeing one exciting race at Valencia one year. It's not always just simply down to the track design.

_________________
Pressure is a Messerschmitt up your ar$e, cricket is not.
- Keith Miller, Australian cricket legend and WWII pilot.


2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:00 am 
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So Hamilton and Vettel against the aero changes, particularly Hamilton who feels that the cars should not be slowed down. Max, OTOH, is happy go slower if the racing is closer. Discuss :twisted:

"We want to push the boundaries and the limits," said Hamilton. "One of the exciting things this year has been that we are breaking records.

"It's incredible the technology we have and what we're doing with it. We should be at least as fast as we are this year but just making racing better."


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/aero-flip-flopping-comical-vettel-1036728/


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