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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:21 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Red Bull's has made the decision but this surely puts Ricciardo in a quandary! Should he stay or go?

Where to? Doesn't seem like there's anywhere for him to go.


Renault maybe, as I'm sure Redbull are going to ask for Sainz back.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference. Seems the Honda's smaller and can be better packaged so bizarrely it might not actually be about the engine performance but Red Bull will know precisely how they can package the Honda by now so they'll know what they can get out of the car by the switch too and that could tip it over the edge if they are in the ballpark now in most areas engine wise.

Would be interesting to see if this almost mythical MGU-K of Renault's suddenly appears now it's done though. You've got to assume Renault at least have their nose put out of joint so their response will be interesting. AMuS(I think it was anyway) said Renault efficiency in the race already matched Ferrari in Canada I believe.

McLaren must feel sick. All the pain and no benefit. Red Bull no pain and gain Exxon,Tag Heuer and now Honda.

Ouch.

Yeah I feel for McLaren, I really do. They must be cursing right now


Why would they be cursing?

After all they claimed it was the Honda PU holding them back, they traded works team status to pander to their drivers ego and end up as the slowest Renault team.

What is going to be fun watching is which engine is going to win next year Honda or Renault.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:30 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference. Seems the Honda's smaller and can be better packaged so bizarrely it might not actually be about the engine performance but Red Bull will know precisely how they can package the Honda by now so they'll know what they can get out of the car by the switch too and that could tip it over the edge if they are in the ballpark now in most areas engine wise.

Would be interesting to see if this almost mythical MGU-K of Renault's suddenly appears now it's done though. You've got to assume Renault at least have their nose put out of joint so their response will be interesting. AMuS(I think it was anyway) said Renault efficiency in the race already matched Ferrari in Canada I believe.

McLaren must feel sick. All the pain and no benefit. Red Bull no pain and gain Exxon,Tag Heuer and now Honda.

Ouch.

Yeah I feel for McLaren, I really do. They must be cursing right now


Why would they be cursing?

After all they claimed it was the Honda PU holding them back, they traded works team status to pander to their drivers ego and end up as the slowest Renault team.

What is going to be fun watching is which engine is going to win next year Honda or Renault.

Bit of a silly question, tbh. They went through three years of pain and Honda barely improved. Now Honda appear to be coming good and McLaren don't reap any of the benefit, but their rivals do. Of course it's going to hurt, irrespective of where you feel the blame lies.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference. Seems the Honda's smaller and can be better packaged so bizarrely it might not actually be about the engine performance but Red Bull will know precisely how they can package the Honda by now so they'll know what they can get out of the car by the switch too and that could tip it over the edge if they are in the ballpark now in most areas engine wise.

Would be interesting to see if this almost mythical MGU-K of Renault's suddenly appears now it's done though. You've got to assume Renault at least have their nose put out of joint so their response will be interesting. AMuS(I think it was anyway) said Renault efficiency in the race already matched Ferrari in Canada I believe.

McLaren must feel sick. All the pain and no benefit. Red Bull no pain and gain Exxon,Tag Heuer and now Honda.

Ouch.

Yeah I feel for McLaren, I really do. They must be cursing right now


Why would they be cursing?

After all they claimed it was the Honda PU holding them back, they traded works team status to pander to their drivers ego and end up as the slowest Renault team.

What is going to be fun watching is which engine is going to win next year Honda or Renault.

Bit of a silly question, tbh. They went through three years of pain and Honda barely improved. Now Honda appear to be coming good and McLaren don't reap any of the benefit, but their rivals do. Of course it's going to hurt, irrespective of where you feel the blame lies.


What folks cant comprehend they tag silly.

Honda appears to be coming good now because they are working with a partner who is interested in getting it right, Mclaren is the slowest Renault powered car right now.

So you abandon works team status and $100m for what exactly to be paying for your PU and get a few sponsors who are not making the difference up.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Red Bull's has made the decision but this surely puts Ricciardo in a quandary! Should he stay or go?

Where to? Doesn't seem like there's anywhere for him to go.

Second that. It's not like he has much of a choice. He basically has to hope Mercedes or Ferrari lose faith in their 2nd drivers, which doesn't look likely at the moment


I think he has the same choice he's realistically had all along (and I've said this plenty of times before today) which is to stay with Red Bull or switch to Renault.

Today's news actually makes it a more difficult choice for him, too. Picking between staying with Red Bull or switching to Renault when both have the same engine was a pretty straightforward decision, unless he really felt that being in the same team as Max would be detrimental to his WDC hopes. But now that you've got Red Bull without Renault power, if he doesn't have faith in Honda then maybe going to a factory team and basically being the #1 driver isn't such a bad idea...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference. Seems the Honda's smaller and can be better packaged so bizarrely it might not actually be about the engine performance but Red Bull will know precisely how they can package the Honda by now so they'll know what they can get out of the car by the switch too and that could tip it over the edge if they are in the ballpark now in most areas engine wise.

Would be interesting to see if this almost mythical MGU-K of Renault's suddenly appears now it's done though. You've got to assume Renault at least have their nose put out of joint so their response will be interesting. AMuS(I think it was anyway) said Renault efficiency in the race already matched Ferrari in Canada I believe.

McLaren must feel sick. All the pain and no benefit. Red Bull no pain and gain Exxon,Tag Heuer and now Honda.

Ouch.

Yeah I feel for McLaren, I really do. They must be cursing right now


Why would they be cursing?

After all they claimed it was the Honda PU holding them back, they traded works team status to pander to their drivers ego and end up as the slowest Renault team.

What is going to be fun watching is which engine is going to win next year Honda or Renault.

Bit of a silly question, tbh. They went through three years of pain and Honda barely improved. Now Honda appear to be coming good and McLaren don't reap any of the benefit, but their rivals do. Of course it's going to hurt, irrespective of where you feel the blame lies.


What folks cant comprehend they tag silly.

Honda appears to be coming good now because they are working with a partner who is interested in getting it right, Mclaren is the slowest Renault powered car right now.

So you abandon works team status and $100m for what exactly to be paying for your PU and get a few sponsors who are not making the difference up.

I guess you missed the "irrespective of where you feel the blame lies" bit.

The rest of what you wrote is simply speculation. McLaren undoubtable feel that they are "interested in getting it right." Whatever the truth of why they parted with Honda, it will still hurt to see their time investment now going to someone else.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference. Seems the Honda's smaller and can be better packaged so bizarrely it might not actually be about the engine performance but Red Bull will know precisely how they can package the Honda by now so they'll know what they can get out of the car by the switch too and that could tip it over the edge if they are in the ballpark now in most areas engine wise.

Would be interesting to see if this almost mythical MGU-K of Renault's suddenly appears now it's done though. You've got to assume Renault at least have their nose put out of joint so their response will be interesting. AMuS(I think it was anyway) said Renault efficiency in the race already matched Ferrari in Canada I believe.

McLaren must feel sick. All the pain and no benefit. Red Bull no pain and gain Exxon,Tag Heuer and now Honda.

Ouch.

Yeah I feel for McLaren, I really do. They must be cursing right now


Why would they be cursing?

After all they claimed it was the Honda PU holding them back, they traded works team status to pander to their drivers ego and end up as the slowest Renault team.

What is going to be fun watching is which engine is going to win next year Honda or Renault.

Bit of a silly question, tbh. They went through three years of pain and Honda barely improved. Now Honda appear to be coming good and McLaren don't reap any of the benefit, but their rivals do. Of course it's going to hurt, irrespective of where you feel the blame lies.


What folks cant comprehend they tag silly.

Honda appears to be coming good now because they are working with a partner who is interested in getting it right, Mclaren is the slowest Renault powered car right now.

So you abandon works team status and $100m for what exactly to be paying for your PU and get a few sponsors who are not making the difference up.


Sometimes your own mistakes hurt a lot more than those of others. I stubbed my toe earlier. Completely my fault and I can assure you I cursed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:25 pm 
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I don’t know why people are even entertaining the thought that Ricciardo would go to Renault.

He’s made it very clear he wants to be in a car that can win the title in 2019. That’s not going to be Renault, regardless of Red Bull’s Honda move.

If he can’t find a seat at Merc or Ferrari, he’ll stay at Red Bull. RBR would have data available showing the Honda is at least as good as the Renault, this would be available to Ricciardo.

It’s possible he will now view Red Bull as the best team for a world title - given their chassis and now potentially having an engine that can compete.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:32 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Red Bull's has made the decision but this surely puts Ricciardo in a quandary! Should he stay or go?

Where to? Doesn't seem like there's anywhere for him to go.


If this story has any truth to it, and Newey is going to switch to Renault, I can absolutely see why he would consider going over there.
Clearer opportunity to be #1 driver
Race winning engine
Legendary designer

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.spo ... 28580.html


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:36 pm 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Red Bull's has made the decision but this surely puts Ricciardo in a quandary! Should he stay or go?

Where to? Doesn't seem like there's anywhere for him to go.

If this story has any truth to it, and Newey is going to switch to Renault, I can absolutely see why he would consider going over there.
Clearer opportunity to be #1 driver
Race winning engine
Legendary designer

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.spo ... 28580.html

If Newey is leaving Red Bull and going to a different F1 team, Ricciardo would be making a very solid bet by following him wherever he goes. I know he wants to win the title soon, but he has time - he's not even 30 yet, unlike Alonso for whom the window really is closing. Being the lead driver at a factory team with Adrian Newey on board would be a hard deal to pass on.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:44 pm 
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I think much now depends on how the two work together.

IF for example Mclaren WAS dictating to Honda, 'you must fit into that size, no leeway', or Red bull WERE ignoring Renaults restriction, and Renault not giving way to RBR's calls for packaging, and this becomes a joint effort, it has to be the best of both worlds.
Honda seem very accommodating and RBR have the knowledge and resources to guide them, so fingers crossed

There is also the other team now running Honda engines, so there is a comparison to someone not insisting on quite such a tight package, and if one gets lots of blow up's and the other does not then...

I see this being either a multi world championship winning combination or an almighty .... Up.

I hope it comes good.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:38 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Red Bull's has made the decision but this surely puts Ricciardo in a quandary! Should he stay or go?

So before the decision this was not a quandary? Although in the end there not much deciding to do if no other realistic seat is on offer.- and i do not think this decision changes what is on offer.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:27 am 
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If either Mercedes or Ferrari wouldn't consider Ricciardo because of their lead drivers wanting te no.2 driver to stay put to maintain harmony, they should still think of employing Ricciardo because as per personality & behavior, I think he would be the best team mate. Sad that the top 2 teams don't want to 2 drivers at par & want some separation when it comes to skills / speed in order to maintain the no. 1/ no.2 driver hierarchy.

Really want to see how long will Kimi be sticking in the 2nd seat. He seems content with the team favouring Vettel!

Anyway, if Honda keep getting better & with Red Bull that arguably has the best chassis on the grid, his title shot could be with this team. So who knows!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:06 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
If either Mercedes or Ferrari wouldn't consider Ricciardo because of their lead drivers wanting te no.2 driver to stay put to maintain harmony, they should still think of employing Ricciardo because as per personality & behavior, I think he would be the best team mate. Sad that the top 2 teams don't want to 2 drivers at par & want some separation when it comes to skills / speed in order to maintain the no. 1/ no.2 driver hierarchy.

Really want to see how long will Kimi be sticking in the 2nd seat. He seems content with the team favouring Vettel!

Anyway, if Honda keep getting better & with Red Bull that arguably has the best chassis on the grid, his title shot could be with this team. So who knows!

I think team harmony is something that is important to both Ferrari and Mercedes and that's possibly the only reason why they haven't offered Ricciardo already. Not that he's seen as a troublemaker, but having two alphas in a team can lead to infighting and they doubtless want to avoid that.

Having said that, he didn't have any falling out with Vettel when they were paired and I don't see any trouble between the Red Bull drivers, so I think the risk in his case is more imagined than real, but that's the impression I have.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:21 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
If either Mercedes or Ferrari wouldn't consider Ricciardo because of their lead drivers wanting te no.2 driver to stay put to maintain harmony, they should still think of employing Ricciardo because as per personality & behavior, I think he would be the best team mate. Sad that the top 2 teams don't want to 2 drivers at par & want some separation when it comes to skills / speed in order to maintain the no. 1/ no.2 driver hierarchy.

Really want to see how long will Kimi be sticking in the 2nd seat. He seems content with the team favouring Vettel!

Anyway, if Honda keep getting better & with Red Bull that arguably has the best chassis on the grid, his title shot could be with this team. So who knows!


How is the team favouring Vettel, I really want to know!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:47 am 
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Rockie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If either Mercedes or Ferrari wouldn't consider Ricciardo because of their lead drivers wanting te no.2 driver to stay put to maintain harmony, they should still think of employing Ricciardo because as per personality & behavior, I think he would be the best team mate. Sad that the top 2 teams don't want to 2 drivers at par & want some separation when it comes to skills / speed in order to maintain the no. 1/ no.2 driver hierarchy.

Really want to see how long will Kimi be sticking in the 2nd seat. He seems content with the team favouring Vettel!

Anyway, if Honda keep getting better & with Red Bull that arguably has the best chassis on the grid, his title shot could be with this team. So who knows!


How is the team favouring Vettel, I really want to know!

strategy


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If either Mercedes or Ferrari wouldn't consider Ricciardo because of their lead drivers wanting te no.2 driver to stay put to maintain harmony, they should still think of employing Ricciardo because as per personality & behavior, I think he would be the best team mate. Sad that the top 2 teams don't want to 2 drivers at par & want some separation when it comes to skills / speed in order to maintain the no. 1/ no.2 driver hierarchy.

Really want to see how long will Kimi be sticking in the 2nd seat. He seems content with the team favouring Vettel!

Anyway, if Honda keep getting better & with Red Bull that arguably has the best chassis on the grid, his title shot could be with this team. So who knows!


How is the team favouring Vettel, I really want to know!

strategy

They do seem to be favouring Seb, however it could be argued he is only being favoured with strategy at each race as he is ahead on track (after doing better in qualifying and the start). Unless we see a race/races where Kimi is ahead and not given the same advantage I'd say it's speculation/personal opinion rather than hard fact.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:13 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If either Mercedes or Ferrari wouldn't consider Ricciardo because of their lead drivers wanting te no.2 driver to stay put to maintain harmony, they should still think of employing Ricciardo because as per personality & behavior, I think he would be the best team mate. Sad that the top 2 teams don't want to 2 drivers at par & want some separation when it comes to skills / speed in order to maintain the no. 1/ no.2 driver hierarchy.

Really want to see how long will Kimi be sticking in the 2nd seat. He seems content with the team favouring Vettel!

Anyway, if Honda keep getting better & with Red Bull that arguably has the best chassis on the grid, his title shot could be with this team. So who knows!


How is the team favouring Vettel, I really want to know!

strategy

They do seem to be favouring Seb, however it could be argued he is only being favoured with strategy at each race as he is ahead on track (after doing better in qualifying and the start). Unless we see a race/races where Kimi is ahead and not given the same advantage I'd say it's speculation/personal opinion rather than hard fact.

I don't know, there have been a number of very questionable strategy decisions for Kimi that simply don't make sense unless you look at them from a supporting Vettel perspective. While I agree that this is largely because Vettel has demonstrated much superior race prospects in the past, it does appear that now Kimi is very much playing a supporting role. Nowhere was that more apparent than China, where initially he was left out ridiculously long, and then subsequently apparently forgotten about when bringing him in for fresh tyres with the SC was the obvious option for him and he wouldn't have lost any places. I think it's beyond reasonable doubt


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:29 pm 
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i wonder if honda has a "buyout" option after 2020? meaning they have the first option to buy red bull f1 racing at the end of the 2020 season


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:37 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...


Well, last year they were still going through PU components as if they went out of fashion.
From 8 components allowed among two riders, they went through 19 ICE's, 23 turbochargers, 23 MGU-H's, 17 MGU-K's, 14 batteries and 13 CE's. There was no reliability whatsoever and not enough power.

RBR have had the luxury to take a gamble with STR and see how it panned out. McLaren never had that luxury, they've had 3 years of absolute misery and that's the data they had to decide on.

For all it's worth, the STR could have been in that same cycle of misery.
Or, for all it's worth, the Honda in the tighter packaging RBR will expect could show the same problems as it showed in the McLaren.

In any case, I understood McLaren's decision to part with Honda in 2017, and in 2018 I understand RBR's decision to partner with Honda :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:47 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...

Well, I for one was consistently arguing against McLaren parting ways with Honda. I always felt that they should have stuck it out and eventually reaped the benefits of being a works team and I never agreed with them going with Renault. I wrote about that quite extensively

And pretty much for the same reasons I think it's a good idea for RB now. A works option for me always trumps a customer one and now that Honda finally look like they are making progress it makes perfect sense. I'm only disappointed it happened after McLaren threw in the towel :x


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:48 pm 
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mds wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...


Well, last year they were still going through PU components as if they went out of fashion.
From 8 components allowed among two riders, they went through 19 ICE's, 23 turbochargers, 23 MGU-H's, 17 MGU-K's, 14 batteries and 13 CE's. There was no reliability whatsoever and not enough power.

RBR have had the luxury to take a gamble with STR and see how it panned out. McLaren never had that luxury, they've had 3 years of absolute misery and that's the data they had to decide on.

For all it's worth, the STR could have been in that same cycle of misery.
Or, for all it's worth, the Honda in the tighter packaging RBR will expect could show the same problems as it showed in the McLaren.

In any case, I understood McLaren's decision to part with Honda in 2017, and in 2018 I understand RBR's decision to partner with Honda :)

BIB: The Honda PU is by all accounts smaller and lighter than the Renault one. So they would have more room to play with in packaging than they do now


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...


Well, last year they were still going through PU components as if they went out of fashion.
From 8 components allowed among two riders, they went through 19 ICE's, 23 turbochargers, 23 MGU-H's, 17 MGU-K's, 14 batteries and 13 CE's. There was no reliability whatsoever and not enough power.

RBR have had the luxury to take a gamble with STR and see how it panned out. McLaren never had that luxury, they've had 3 years of absolute misery and that's the data they had to decide on.

For all it's worth, the STR could have been in that same cycle of misery.
Or, for all it's worth, the Honda in the tighter packaging RBR will expect could show the same problems as it showed in the McLaren.

In any case, I understood McLaren's decision to part with Honda in 2017, and in 2018 I understand RBR's decision to partner with Honda :)

BIB: The Honda PU is by all accounts smaller and lighter than the Renault one. So they would have more room to play with in packaging than they do now


But then again it's McLaren's packaging demands who were supposedly too stringent for Honda which, for some, resulted in the bad performance and reliability.

All I'm saying is I suspect RBR won't be more accomodating than McLaren when it comes to tight packaging.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:55 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...

That’s because of the progress Honda has shown this season.

STR have traditionally been a 7th place constructors team even with Renault and Ferrari engines. They have probably the worst driver since before the days of Vettel; yet they are currently in 7th place in the WCC and fighting in the midfield every race.

That suggests that Honda have clearly made improvements and they are probably not inferior to Renault anymore.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:58 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If either Mercedes or Ferrari wouldn't consider Ricciardo because of their lead drivers wanting te no.2 driver to stay put to maintain harmony, they should still think of employing Ricciardo because as per personality & behavior, I think he would be the best team mate. Sad that the top 2 teams don't want to 2 drivers at par & want some separation when it comes to skills / speed in order to maintain the no. 1/ no.2 driver hierarchy.

Really want to see how long will Kimi be sticking in the 2nd seat. He seems content with the team favouring Vettel!

Anyway, if Honda keep getting better & with Red Bull that arguably has the best chassis on the grid, his title shot could be with this team. So who knows!


How is the team favouring Vettel, I really want to know!

strategy


In what way only once this season has Kimi qualified ahead of Vettel and he got the favourable strategy of deciding when to pit.

Vettel being left out with Ferrari hoping for a SC which happened was just opportune nothing else.

This last race Ferrari gave Kimi the same opportunity and he squandered it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:13 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
STR have traditionally been a 7th place constructors team even with Renault and Ferrari engines. They have probably the worst driver since before the days of Vettel; yet they are currently in 7th place in the WCC and fighting in the midfield every race.

That suggests that Honda have clearly made improvements and they are probably not inferior to Renault anymore.


Going to repeat myself then...

Thing is, I think STR has been held back by various reasons, mostly PU side, for most of the past seasons.
- 2014 & 2015: Renault unit obviously was a disaster. How RBR did what they did (especially in 2014) remains impressive but still Toro Rosso was at a huge disadvantage compared to the "non-top" teams who were sporting mostly Mercedes engines. In both years they beat all non-top teams without the Merc engine
- 2016: started off well pretty well but the outdated non-developed 2015 Ferrari PU made them gradually fall behind
- 2017: probably did a bit worse on the chassis side than the years before

And realistically, they are now 7th in the WCC but they should really be well behind Haas. They're also running behind on their points total of this point last year, as well as on total points finishes ( even if you discard Hartley and take Gasly's performances vs those of Sainz last year).


I mean, "even with Renault and Ferrari units" - 2 of those years they had an awful Renault unit, one of those they had a previous-season spec Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Quote:
And realistically, they are now 7th in the WCC but they should really be well behind Haas. They're also running behind on their points total of this point last year, as well as on total points finishes ( even if you discard Hartley and take Gasly's performances vs those of Sainz last year).

Points per race average right now is higher than it was last year. I also rate Gasly and Hartley lower than Sainz and Kvyat.

You can also look at 2010-2013. Toro Rosso had three good drivers and one great driver in this time period, and finished mostly with similar results to 2018 without an engine disadvantage.

Again, it's just subjective opinion and guesswork right now. I doubt the Honda engine is much inferior to the Renault engine at this point.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think by the time next year we're at testing the Honda engine will be in the ballpark of Renault in all departments, some things ahead and some things not but all in all not much difference. Seems the Honda's smaller and can be better packaged so bizarrely it might not actually be about the engine performance but Red Bull will know precisely how they can package the Honda by now so they'll know what they can get out of the car by the switch too and that could tip it over the edge if they are in the ballpark now in most areas engine wise.

Would be interesting to see if this almost mythical MGU-K of Renault's suddenly appears now it's done though. You've got to assume Renault at least have their nose put out of joint so their response will be interesting. AMuS(I think it was anyway) said Renault efficiency in the race already matched Ferrari in Canada I believe.

McLaren must feel sick. All the pain and no benefit. Red Bull no pain and gain Exxon,Tag Heuer and now Honda.

Ouch.

Yeah I feel for McLaren, I really do. They must be cursing right now



Why would they be cursing?

After all they claimed it was the Honda PU holding them back, they traded works team status to pander to their drivers ego and end up as the slowest Renault team.

What is going to be fun watching is which engine is going to win next year Honda or Renault.


Mclaren were so arrogant, delusional. They thought all they had to do is swap the so called GP2 engine with Renault and problem was fixed :lol: Renault will do well to get podium let alone win races next year. There is a pretty big gap to top teams and moreover they have resources to keep improving their package.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:09 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Points per race average right now is higher than it was last year.


Only just, and the fourth place is an outlier that heavily skews the points average as it accounts for more than half of it.
Looking at it realistically, at this point in the season they're not in as good a shape as they were at this point last season.

As for the drivers, not sure - Kvyat was downright terrible all year last year, while Gasly hasn't looked like he's out of his depth, doing pretty well. But that's hard to compare as there's no real benchmark.

Quote:
You can also look at 2010-2013. Toro Rosso had three good drivers and one great driver in this time period, and finished mostly with similar results to 2018 without an engine disadvantage.


Well, Key didn't impact tmost of those designs - I do believe he brought in a lot of good experience and is responsible for a few very good designs, somewhat compensating for the obvious engine disadvantages from 2014 to 2016.

Quote:
Again, it's just subjective opinion and guesswork right now. I doubt the Honda engine is much inferior to the Renault engine at this point.


Agreed, it's guesswork. I think it's still behind, but RBR have seen the data and must consider they are on an upwards curve at least.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:12 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...

At the time we all believed McLaren when they claimed that their problems were all Honda's fault. This year that has been exposed as nonsense.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:17 pm 
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j man wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...

At the time we all believed McLaren when they claimed that their problems were all Honda's fault. This year that has been exposed as nonsense.

It really hasn't


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
j man wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...

At the time we all believed McLaren when they claimed that their problems were all Honda's fault. This year that has been exposed as nonsense.

It really hasn't

Hasn't it? I don't know what other conclusion can be drawn from McLaren's lack of pace and lack of development this year. There are fundamental issues on the engineering side that I struggle to believe have only emerged this season. Firing their engineering management speaks volumes.

Integrating a brand new engine doesn't seem to caused too much trouble for Toro Rosso.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:12 pm 
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j man wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...

At the time we all believed McLaren when they claimed that their problems were all Honda's fault. This year that has been exposed as nonsense.

Even if it was all Hondas fault I still believed they would turn it around and lots of people couldn't see it as a remote possibility and I was in a small minority. Now they are showing signs that the engine will come good lots seem to have changed tune and not acknowledged that they were wrong


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:53 am 
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Does this create a bit of a conflict between Aston Martin and Honda?

Is there any precedent of an F1 team having signage from two car companies which have no association to each other?

This is unlike the past couple of years where Red Bull have had Aston Martin logos, because no Renault logos appear on the car due to the Tag Heuer deal.

Next year they will be the factory Honda team. It will be confusing with Aston Martin Red Bull Honda as the team name.

Or is the Aston Martin sponsorship likely to be shrunk with Honda taking more of a title role in the team name?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:56 am 
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j man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
j man wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...

At the time we all believed McLaren when they claimed that their problems were all Honda's fault. This year that has been exposed as nonsense.

It really hasn't

Hasn't it? I don't know what other conclusion can be drawn from McLaren's lack of pace and lack of development this year. There are fundamental issues on the engineering side that I struggle to believe have only emerged this season. Firing their engineering management speaks volumes.

Integrating a brand new engine doesn't seem to caused too much trouble for Toro Rosso.

yeah this has been done to death. The amount of changes McLaren had to make were substantial and would undoubtedly have impacted the car. Whatever the issues they may or may not have had last year, it's almost impossible to tell from this year's turkey as it's so different in so many ways. Suspension, floor, bargeboards, wings: you name it, it's been moved or altered.

Comparisons with STR aren't apt. The Renault PU is by all accounts both heavier and larger than the Honda, with its split turbo design. So while McLaren had to change almost everything, STR were able to pretty much drop it in.

You're entitled to your opinion on it, of course, but it's not true to say it's been exposed as a nonsense in the way you did. It's almost impossible to compare the two cars


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:03 am 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...


Well, last year they were still going through PU components as if they went out of fashion.
From 8 components allowed among two riders, they went through 19 ICE's, 23 turbochargers, 23 MGU-H's, 17 MGU-K's, 14 batteries and 13 CE's. There was no reliability whatsoever and not enough power.

RBR have had the luxury to take a gamble with STR and see how it panned out. McLaren never had that luxury, they've had 3 years of absolute misery and that's the data they had to decide on.

For all it's worth, the STR could have been in that same cycle of misery.
Or, for all it's worth, the Honda in the tighter packaging RBR will expect could show the same problems as it showed in the McLaren.

In any case, I understood McLaren's decision to part with Honda in 2017, and in 2018 I understand RBR's decision to partner with Honda :)

BIB: The Honda PU is by all accounts smaller and lighter than the Renault one. So they would have more room to play with in packaging than they do now


But then again it's McLaren's packaging demands who were supposedly too stringent for Honda which, for some, resulted in the bad performance and reliability.

All I'm saying is I suspect RBR won't be more accomodating than McLaren when it comes to tight packaging.

I think the packaging demands being too stringent for Honda is something that's been peddled about on forums but I don't recall Honda themselves saying that. And tbh that doesn't let Honda off the hook as they should have said so at the time anyway. But all we heard was them admitting they'd messed up, not that they were being hamstrung.

What I meant to say was that even though the RB is tightly packaged now, when they take out the Renault the Honda will have room to breathe anyway as it's smaller, so RB won't have to make too many changes and the tightness of the existing packaging shouldn't cause Honda too many headaches. But yes, they'll undoubtedly have less room than they enjoy in the STR


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:06 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If either Mercedes or Ferrari wouldn't consider Ricciardo because of their lead drivers wanting te no.2 driver to stay put to maintain harmony, they should still think of employing Ricciardo because as per personality & behavior, I think he would be the best team mate. Sad that the top 2 teams don't want to 2 drivers at par & want some separation when it comes to skills / speed in order to maintain the no. 1/ no.2 driver hierarchy.

Really want to see how long will Kimi be sticking in the 2nd seat. He seems content with the team favouring Vettel!

Anyway, if Honda keep getting better & with Red Bull that arguably has the best chassis on the grid, his title shot could be with this team. So who knows!


How is the team favouring Vettel, I really want to know!

strategy


In what way only once this season has Kimi qualified ahead of Vettel and he got the favourable strategy of deciding when to pit.

Vettel being left out with Ferrari hoping for a SC which happened was just opportune nothing else.

This last race Ferrari gave Kimi the same opportunity and he squandered it.

Well China is a great example. Kimi's race was completely sacrificed for Vettel's and it was only the third race of the season.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:31 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Back on subject, I'm rather amused that it was very hard to get anyone to say a good word about Honda last year when McLaren were ditching them (I've always said they should have stuck at least for 2019/20 and changing for the new formula if they still had issues) and now it seems the majority are on board that Honda are a good prospect for Red Bull...


Well, last year they were still going through PU components as if they went out of fashion.
From 8 components allowed among two riders, they went through 19 ICE's, 23 turbochargers, 23 MGU-H's, 17 MGU-K's, 14 batteries and 13 CE's. There was no reliability whatsoever and not enough power.

RBR have had the luxury to take a gamble with STR and see how it panned out. McLaren never had that luxury, they've had 3 years of absolute misery and that's the data they had to decide on.

For all it's worth, the STR could have been in that same cycle of misery.
Or, for all it's worth, the Honda in the tighter packaging RBR will expect could show the same problems as it showed in the McLaren.

In any case, I understood McLaren's decision to part with Honda in 2017, and in 2018 I understand RBR's decision to partner with Honda :)

BIB: The Honda PU is by all accounts smaller and lighter than the Renault one. So they would have more room to play with in packaging than they do now


But then again it's McLaren's packaging demands who were supposedly too stringent for Honda which, for some, resulted in the bad performance and reliability.

All I'm saying is I suspect RBR won't be more accomodating than McLaren when it comes to tight packaging.

I think the packaging demands being too stringent for Honda is something that's been peddled about on forums but I don't recall Honda themselves saying that. And tbh that doesn't let Honda off the hook as they should have said so at the time anyway. But all we heard was them admitting they'd messed up, not that they were being hamstrung.

What I meant to say was that even though the RB is tightly packaged now, when they take out the Renault the Honda will have room to breathe anyway as it's smaller, so RB won't have to make too many changes and the tightness of the existing packaging shouldn't cause Honda too many headaches. But yes, they'll undoubtedly have less room than they enjoy in the STR


Hey, I kind of agree, that's why I used the word "supposedly" and "for some". It was always my opinion that if Honda thought something wasn't feasible or possible, or McLaren's demands were too stringent, then Honda should have plainly told them so as they have the expertise on PU's.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:40 am 
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oz_karter wrote:
Does this create a bit of a conflict between Aston Martin and Honda?

Is there any precedent of an F1 team having signage from two car companies which have no association to each other?

This is unlike the past couple of years where Red Bull have had Aston Martin logos, because no Renault logos appear on the car due to the Tag Heuer deal.

Next year they will be the factory Honda team. It will be confusing with Aston Martin Red Bull Honda as the team name.

Or is the Aston Martin sponsorship likely to be shrunk with Honda taking more of a title role in the team name?


BMW Sauber Ferrari springs to mind


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