planetf1.com

That's gonna blow the heads off all the people in the 'McLaren has no clothes' thread.

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

Between Max claiming they are short 70-80HP on Mercedes and Ferrari on one hand, and Gasly saying how much time they lose on the straights on the other hand, I'm not exactly feeling confident for RBR for next year.

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

I wouldn't put the boot into Honda just yet.

Gasly was saying the car was faster in the corners but slow on the straight - for a Torro Rosso to be fast in the corners I dare say it was running some serious wing.

Not being the most aero efficient car, I think there's a possibility the straightline speed issue wasn't all down to the engine (much like McLaren).

Alternatively, the Honda engine is still the worst engine on the grid and people jumped the gun in blaming it all on McLaren's aero?

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

I think it's worse than that. After the manufacturers backflipped it now looks like the MGU-H could be retained for 2021, which means little to no chance of new manufacturers joining. At the time Red Bull signed with Honda, it looked likely there would be a least one or two new manufacturers joining in 2021, and Red Bull would have an escape hatch if Honda continued to show they can't build a competitive PU. Now that escape hatch is possibly gone and to stay in F1 Red Bull will have to stay with Honda for the duration. That has the potential to kill the team.

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"Guys I'm coming in, I'm having too much grip"
- Chanoch Nissany

I don't think anybody can or has denied Honda is the worst PU. Probably after Canada some speculate to be on par with Renault. Honda themselves said they only expect to catch Renault at the end of the year.

We'll see, I guess. On 2021, I don't really know how much the teams have to say in it, but looking at it objectively, there are:
- 3 Mercedes-powered teams who are probably happy with the PU and not really want to have a shakeup in engine performance
- 3 Ferrari-powered teams, same reasoning

Then you have Renault who probably think they'll get there and don't want to risk another shakeup and getting it wrong again?

Basically it's probably only RBR/STR who at this point want a complete redesign of the PU regulations. But even if the Renault-powered teams want that as well, it's still a 4 to 6 minority wanting to change the engine regs.

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

It's not about the current manufacturers, though. No change in regs means it's virtually guaranteed that no new manufacturers will join F1. It will effectively remain a closed shop indefinitely as no-one in their right mind would want to repeat Honda's experience. The manufacturers shouldn't have a vote. Period. Self-interest is not compatible with F1's interests.

No one has said the Honda engine is better than others.

Mclaren's aero is still crap, what Gasly says does not detract from that, if this current Honda engine was in the Redbull they will still be where they are.

In terms of power the Renault since '14 has been behind the Ferrari engine and Redbull have won races with it.

You cannot possibly claim that. You can't lump all trailing engines in the same boat. Honda's deficit is likely much greater than Renault's deficit.

I am predicting that RBR will mix in the middle field, and that's not even bold prediction. At least for 2019. They will loose the edge they have now.

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The end is near

I agree, but as I said I don't know what power the teams and/or manufacturer have for regulations that are to be imposed somewhere in the future.

Surely they have some bargaining power as, while F1 wants to attract new manufacturers, it's far from certain new regs will effectively accomplish that. So So if current teams threaten with leaving, then F1 will probably cater to that somewhat (as in not as radical rule changes as they would want, for example).

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

I'm thinking heading the midfield. Reminiscent of 2014, where they did wonders with the subpar Renault.
If you look at what's happening now, RBR have a second or more in hand on average (especially race pace) towards the midfield. I'm thinking the Honda unit by next year should not lose them more than that.

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

yeah I agree they have the bargaining power and it depends on how willing LG and the FIA are to call their bluff. If they cave, then it will set the tone for the future with the manufacturers effectively calling the shots. But if they hold firm, they could lose the big names like Mercedes and Ferrari and devalue the series. Wouldn't like to be in their shoes but personally I feel they have to draw a line in the sand somehow. Current setup is not healthy.

They have to know that keeping the MGU-H is the death knell for potential new entrants. I don't see how they can talk about expansion if they go down this route.

For the last 5 years pretty much the only thing Renault has been able to develop is reliability and the gap to Mercedes and Ferrari in terms of horsepower still seems to be significant. Looking at that track record, there's nothing to suggest the next 5 years would be any better. Honda on the other hand started one year behind everyone else and if the engine now is even close to Renault, they have arguably developed faster, although it must be said that last year's Honda was a huge failure in which might have otherwise been an upward trend in development.

It's a gamble to change to Honda, but staying with Renault year after year seems stagnant in terms of results, so they had to at least try something. It's not like they're ever going to catch Mercedes and Ferrari by only improving on their already strong aero package, if year after year they're steadily behind in horsepower.

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“I'm happy, but there's nothing to jump around about.”

I don't understand your response, is it that we can't gauge redbulls chassis or what?

Without Redbull, Renault will be no different to Honda with competitiveness asides reliability right now.

Redbull at some races have had over a second in hand to Renault factory team with same engine.

The way I read if this current Honda engine was in the Redbull they will still be where they are is that Red Bull would still have won races etc and have the same Championship positions they do now if they'd have had a Honda lump in the back instead of a Renault one. And I think that's a bold claim that doesn't stand up to scrutiny

I think STR has better car but in race Honda performance is not as good as Renault. Alonso was pleased with P13 so may be he didn't expect to be ahead of Gasly lol. Previous to this last 3 races they have out qualified Mclaren. In race he was some 5secs behind Alonso which is not too bad. Gasly seems to be better than Vandoorne but I think someone like Sainz would probably do a better job. It is difficult to judge.

Spec 3 upgrade should be interesting comparison between Renault and Honda. I will not be surprised if Hartley uses 8 engines this year. Sadly I do not think either of them can reach Mercedes/Ferrari level.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM9-GK3MeLI

Ok that's what you think.

If the Renault engine was in the Renault factory team and Mclaren alone you will be saying the same thing you have said above that it's not capable of winning a race, had I said Redbull would be winning with a Renault engine funny enough.

Redbull won races in 2014 when they were reportedly 100hp+ down. It's a safe bet they will win with Honda. But I'm not convinced that their switch was warranted because I'm not sure Honda will ever surpass Renault or catch up to Merc and Ferrari. On the other hand you would think that at some point soon we would be talking about convergence with these PUs, but then you've got Max moaning that he is 80hp down, while Toto claiming that the 3 PUs are close to each other. Don't know what to think anymore. Are the engines really that far apart or is Redbull just blowing hot air? They make more downforce than anyone else, so their car for sure will have more drag on it. About Gasly making negative comments about Honda; well, he didn't have too much trouble passing Merc and Ferrari powered cars at Silverstone and Canada. Absolute madness....

Renault had a better engine in 2014 than Ferrari, courtesy of a better ERS because they both had the same weaknesses with the too small a turbo and no oil or lean burn.

It's part of the reason Alonso left, he thought they were locked in to the worst design with the token system. Once he left Mahle brought TJI and Cedric Cornebois brought oil burn and Ferrari had left Renault in the dust over the 2014/15 winter.

Hence Red Bull meltdown in 2015 about going backwards.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Did Renault have a better engine in '16 as I recall Redbull won and Ferrari didn't!

Red Bull are not going to 'catch' the top 2 teams without a Mercedes or Ferrari engine and they are not going to get either.

They have the Renault engine and know what it is, and have a very good idea of what it is going to be.
They have seen the Honda engine at work in STR, and seen the development potential in Honda so should have quite a good idea of that too.

Its not like when Ron Dennis went to Honda and come back saying it was 'a little gem', RBR have two running units to compare.

If they are not going to get a Mercedes or Ferrari engine, and they are not, all this Honda has to be to make it worth while is better than the Renault.
Or even, as good as the Renault but smaller or lighter or more suited to them is some other way.

Logically, it is not competing with Mercedes and Ferrari engines, just Renault.

They did, it had the same shortcomings (no lean burn, too small a turbo) but Ferrari's ERS dumped it's power for most of the year, it took them ages to smooth out the delivery, and was available for less time than Renault.

Red Bull's won because their chassis was also superior to Ferrari's just the same as it was every year from 2009 until 2017 when Ferrari had their first chassis fully developed with all the new toys Sergio bought in 2015/16 like the full chassis dyno Red Bull and Mercedes had.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

In 2015 the Ferrari chassis was better than the redbull one.

It was Allison's poor design in '16 that made Ferrari fall back.

McLaren's aero + mechanical was pretty on-point in 2017 (and also decent in 2016), as evidenced by their performance on tracks like Hungary, COTA and Monaco. Just because Honda have their by far best season in F1 since their return, are we gonna pretend that their 2018 PU was somewhat close to the 2016/2017?

Yeah maybe 2015 tbf, I'd forgot Newey wasn't happy with it so fair enough. 2016 I just thought they switched attention earlier to 2017 tbh.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Yes, plenty of people are quite happy to do just that, it seems.

On that line of reasoning, since Ferrari clearly have the best PU the 2017 car was quite poor.

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

First of all, I'm sorry I'll provide a Dutch link, because I can't find an English one for the life of me, but here goes:

https://nl.motorsport.com/f1/news/redbu ... f/3146727/

What's being said is that Renault refused to supply the parts Red Bull requested. They wanted to change 6 parts on Ricciardo's engine, because he was taking all the penalties in one go. Renault refused and only provided three. This will probably mean Ricciardo will need to take another penalty somewhere. Abiteboul wants to find out what happened, but says the ICE didn't need to be changed. He does agree that the communication wasn't ideal though.

What do you guys think? Suppliers refusing to supply teams with parts they request? I really feel for Red Bull and am happy for them that they signed their deal with Honda. Renault looks real bad here.

Renault didn't want Red Bull stuck with a new Spec B ICE when they're introducing the Spec C after Hungary. The teams use an old ICE at Hungary so it would (If Dan hadn't gone on to have a failure) have been Germany's ICE or older in the car for Hungary with the new Spec B just sitting there in the pool and he'd be stuck with it for the next 7 races and have to take new penalties to get the Spec C introduced from Spa onwards.

I can see both points but surely if you'd explained all that to Red Bull and they still wanted to go ahead anyway then they should've got one from Renault, it should be their choice even if your reasoning for not wanting to give it is sound enough.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

If true, I'm surprised if that isn't in breach of the agreement between the two parties?

Do you know what upgrades are featured with the Spec C Renault? Redbull really need something to be back in the fight imo. They seem to have lost ground to Merc and Ferrari since they introduced their latest power units.

Finally an English version:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13760 ... ardo-parts

No sorry, just read Cyril talking about it elsewhere. Yeah Red Bull need a hefty jump but with their reliability as well it's not looking great. The last thing they needed was a big breakthrough from one of Ferrari or Mercedes and it seems like one of them has.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Thanks.

I doubt Renault fully know yet, just know what they'd like to bring. They'll likely be dyno testing and changing stuff that brings up too

Given the poor reliability Redbull have experienced so far, I wonder just how much patience they will have with Honda.

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PF1 pick 10 2016: 7th (1 win, 4 podiums), 2017: 17th (3 podiums)
Awards: Sergio perez trophy & Podium specialist
PF1 pick 3 2015: constructors 2nd, singles 5th
Autosport Gp 2016/17 - 5th
F1 Oracle 2017: 2nd (6 wins), 2016:5th (2wins)

Well they're well prepared and practiced if there are reliability issues with their engine!

Definately seems like Redbull can’t get any worse with reliability. Wonder how many races will mad max keep his cool lol....

I really do hope Honda does well. You don’t wanna see a big engine manufacturer struggle in F1. It will prevent other companies from wanting to try.

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PF1 pick 10 2016: 7th (1 win, 4 podiums), 2017: 17th (3 podiums)
Awards: Sergio perez trophy & Podium specialist
PF1 pick 3 2015: constructors 2nd, singles 5th
Autosport Gp 2016/17 - 5th
F1 Oracle 2017: 2nd (6 wins), 2016:5th (2wins)

Or hopefully make them better prepared and not come in earlier than they wanted by being pressured by the team...