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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 5:37 am 
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Deep_blue wrote:
Racism...
Absolutely. I mean, look, that's what stopped Hamilton ever getting a seat in a top team. I really do believe that he could be a 4x WDC by now if only he were not overlooked...

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:05 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think Ocon has improved relative to Perez, on balance I would have said he was the better performing driver before this weekend. I blame both drivers for the first lap carnage - Ocon 100% at fault for his retirement and Perez triggered the Sirotkin mess by trying to get aggressive with Ocon (again)

Again?

You see this kind of thing if noticed by the top teams is not going to go down well.


Accept it's not true in this case.

Not true that Perez is still being over aggressive against Ocon on the race starts?


Not true that Perez "Triggered the Sirotkin mess by trying to get aggressive with Ocon." Have you noticed anything else this season?


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:13 am 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think Ocon has improved relative to Perez, on balance I would have said he was the better performing driver before this weekend. I blame both drivers for the first lap carnage - Ocon 100% at fault for his retirement and Perez triggered the Sirotkin mess by trying to get aggressive with Ocon (again)


Huh? The only one to blame was Sirotkin, who braked later than every driver around him and simply drove into the back of Force India:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPGPJ1nlGrI

Watch the start again. After a desperate lunge at Ocon, Perez nearly tags the back of him and has to back out. Then he gets swamped by Sainz and Stroll. Next thing Sirotkin knows he's got a face full of Perez's Force India. Sirotkin may have gone in hot to that corner, but there wouldn't have been any contact if Perez hadn't originally screwed up - he shouldn't have been back there going slower than everyone around him. As a result Sirotkin then gets stuck in the Hulk-Alonso sandwich, which was closed by Hulkenberg on the right.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:41 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think Ocon has improved relative to Perez, on balance I would have said he was the better performing driver before this weekend. I blame both drivers for the first lap carnage - Ocon 100% at fault for his retirement and Perez triggered the Sirotkin mess by trying to get aggressive with Ocon (again)


Huh? The only one to blame was Sirotkin, who braked later than every driver around him and simply drove into the back of Force India:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPGPJ1nlGrI

Watch the start again. After a desperate lunge at Ocon, Perez nearly tags the back of him and has to back out. Then he gets swamped by Sainz and Stroll. Next thing Sirotkin knows he's got a face full of Perez's Force India. Sirotkin may have gone in hot to that corner, but there wouldn't have been any contact if Perez hadn't originally screwed up - he shouldn't have been back there going slower than everyone around him. As a result Sirotkin then gets stuck in the Hulk-Alonso sandwich, which was closed by Hulkenberg on the right.


In the video above of the start, could You pinpoint the exact second when Checo made a desperate lunge?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:25 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think Ocon has improved relative to Perez, on balance I would have said he was the better performing driver before this weekend. I blame both drivers for the first lap carnage - Ocon 100% at fault for his retirement and Perez triggered the Sirotkin mess by trying to get aggressive with Ocon (again)


Huh? The only one to blame was Sirotkin, who braked later than every driver around him and simply drove into the back of Force India:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPGPJ1nlGrI

Watch the start again. After a desperate lunge at Ocon, Perez nearly tags the back of him and has to back out. Then he gets swamped by Sainz and Stroll. Next thing Sirotkin knows he's got a face full of Perez's Force India. Sirotkin may have gone in hot to that corner, but there wouldn't have been any contact if Perez hadn't originally screwed up - he shouldn't have been back there going slower than everyone around him. As a result Sirotkin then gets stuck in the Hulk-Alonso sandwich, which was closed by Hulkenberg on the right.


I'm sorry I just don't see it. Do you mean turn 1 or turn 2?


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 11:18 am 
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Mayhem wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Yeah, me too.

Which race is Perez? Caucasian. Has he ever had racial problems? No.

I actually heard Perez making some jesting remarks about blondes, which would be racial if he wasn't Caucasian as well. So, these remarks were just stupid, but not racial.


Sergio perez is mexican NOT caucasian. He is the 2nd most successful mexican driver of all time. Pedro rodriguez is the 1st having won 2 races (67 south african gp & 70 belgium gp ) along with 7 podiums

The fact that he is mexican could be a reason a team such as ferrari would over look him (no im not saying thats why but its possible due to the herritage of ferrari)

Sergio is a talent and i would love to see him in a top team but honestly i dont see it happening. Which really is something that many motors sports have in common and that is, talented drivers dont get the right drive they deserve.

That is a misconception that Latino is a race, let alone Mexican. In my spare time, I have translated enough material to my anthropologist friend, to know these things.

Actually, here is the quotation:

"However, there is a common misconception in the US that Hispanic/Latino is a race"*

*Horsman, Reginald, Race and Manifest Destiny: The Origins of American Radial Anglo-Saxonism, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1981 p. 210.


Actually

"People who identify their origin as Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish may be of any race."
https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

So ill let sergio be the judge of what box he checks but i doubt its the box labeled "white".

Sir, "white" is not a proper way to describe a race, even when sometimes officially in use. Caucasian is. So is Perez, who obviously has European/Spanish origin, not African, Asian, American Indian, or Pacific Islander origin.

Race definition is a matter of science. It's impossible to stand out and say, I am considering myself something else, when scientific parameters for races says otherwise. This you can do for nationality, ethnicity, not for race.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 11:39 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:

Sergio perez is mexican NOT caucasian. He is the 2nd most successful mexican driver of all time. Pedro rodriguez is the 1st having won 2 races (67 south african gp & 70 belgium gp ) along with 7 podiums

The fact that he is mexican could be a reason a team such as ferrari would over look him (no im not saying thats why but its possible due to the herritage of ferrari)

Sergio is a talent and i would love to see him in a top team but honestly i dont see it happening. Which really is something that many motors sports have in common and that is, talented drivers dont get the right drive they deserve.

That is a misconception that Latino is a race, let alone Mexican. In my spare time, I have translated enough material to my anthropologist friend, to know these things.

Actually, here is the quotation:

"However, there is a common misconception in the US that Hispanic/Latino is a race"*

*Horsman, Reginald, Race and Manifest Destiny: The Origins of American Radial Anglo-Saxonism, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1981 p. 210.


Actually

"People who identify their origin as Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish may be of any race."
https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

So ill let sergio be the judge of what box he checks but i doubt its the box labeled "white".

Sir, "white" is not a proper way to describe a race, even when sometimes officially in use. Caucasian is. So is Perez, who obviously has European/Spanish origin, not African, Asian, American Indian, or Pacific Islander origin.

Race definition is a matter of science. It's impossible to stand out and say, I am considering myself something else, when scientific parameters for races says otherwise. This you can do for nationality, ethnicity, not for race.


White is a race classification. Not to be confused with Caucasian, which includes white but also North African, Arab and even part of Indian races. It is quite a confusing subject really. But it doesn't matter really, maybe we should steer back to the topic


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:03 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Watch the start again. After a desperate lunge at Ocon, Perez nearly tags the back of him and has to back out. Then he gets swamped by Sainz and Stroll. Next thing Sirotkin knows he's got a face full of Perez's Force India. Sirotkin may have gone in hot to that corner, but there wouldn't have been any contact if Perez hadn't originally screwed up - he shouldn't have been back there going slower than everyone around him. As a result Sirotkin then gets stuck in the Hulk-Alonso sandwich, which was closed by Hulkenberg on the right.


I think it's you who needs to rewatch it and I recommend setting video to 0.25 speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iculr0LElws

In Turn 1 Perez starts to brake while being a little bit behind Ocon, but at the apex he got 1/3 of his car alongside. If that's desperate lunge, without locking his tyre up and with plenty of space between both cars, well...

Going into turn 2 Perez is behind Ocon until being pushed into both Kimi and his team mate by Sirotkin. The same Sirotkin, who was penalised with 3 grid positions at the next race for this very mistake - braking too late.

There is absolutely nothing to discuss. It's very clear Sirotkin brakes some 10 metres later than Ocon, Kimi, Perez and Sainz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXw5hFb5oX4

Also, at no point Perez, until receiving hit from Sirotkin, is even alongside Sainz and Stroll, so how on earth could he be swamped by them? Are we watching the same videos?

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 5:34 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:

Sergio perez is mexican NOT caucasian. He is the 2nd most successful mexican driver of all time. Pedro rodriguez is the 1st having won 2 races (67 south african gp & 70 belgium gp ) along with 7 podiums

The fact that he is mexican could be a reason a team such as ferrari would over look him (no im not saying thats why but its possible due to the herritage of ferrari)

Sergio is a talent and i would love to see him in a top team but honestly i dont see it happening. Which really is something that many motors sports have in common and that is, talented drivers dont get the right drive they deserve.

That is a misconception that Latino is a race, let alone Mexican. In my spare time, I have translated enough material to my anthropologist friend, to know these things.

Actually, here is the quotation:

"However, there is a common misconception in the US that Hispanic/Latino is a race"*

*Horsman, Reginald, Race and Manifest Destiny: The Origins of American Radial Anglo-Saxonism, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1981 p. 210.


Actually

"People who identify their origin as Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish may be of any race."
https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

So ill let sergio be the judge of what box he checks but i doubt its the box labeled "white".

Sir, "white" is not a proper way to describe a race, even when sometimes officially in use. Caucasian is. So is Perez, who obviously has European/Spanish origin, not African, Asian, American Indian, or Pacific Islander origin.

Race definition is a matter of science. It's impossible to stand out and say, I am considering myself something else, when scientific parameters for races says otherwise. This you can do for nationality, ethnicity, not for race.


the quote & link i provided above is the definition of race classification as per the guidelines of the united states government. If you disagree with their list then feel free to take it up with them. But as i stated before "ill let sergio perez be the judge......"


Siao7 wrote:
White is a race classification. Not to be confused with Caucasian, which includes white but also North African, Arab and even part of Indian races. It is quite a confusing subject really. But it doesn't matter really, maybe we should steer back to the topic


^^^^ exactly :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 6:15 pm 
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This is ALL I have to say about Perez!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dieehj2b4s

The guy is a phenomenal driver, makes his tires last and has testicular fortitude to go for it when most others would instead, lift.
The only time I can say he made a poor decision was against Massa in Canada 2014 which wasn't done on purpose and due to just not thinking to look in his mirror.
In a few of the incidents with Ocon last year, I think the argument could be made for either driver being the culprit. But Sergio has the stuff to be one of the top guys in both ability and testicular fortitude.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 6:36 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
This is ALL I have to say about Perez!


[*fixed it for you*]

The guy is a phenomenal driver, makes his tires last and has testicular fortitude to go for it when most others would instead, lift.
The only time I can say he made a poor decision was against Massa in Canada 2014 which wasn't done on purpose and due to just not thinking to look in his mirror.
In a few of the incidents with Ocon last year, I think the argument could be made for either driver being the culprit. But Sergio has the stuff to be one of the top guys in both ability and testicular fortitude.


I remember that move, jb wasnt too happy lol. Iirc he complained to the team about it lol.... But to your point. Sergio is a great talent and the guy makes it happen when he see's the opportunity

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 6:53 pm 
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That it's been 5 years already... That was a fun race to watch. Perez is a top driver, easily top 7, I think he has proven himself to deserv a top car.
Maybe his season with McLaren ruined his chances. I hope not.

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 3:46 am 
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Warheart01 wrote:
That it's been 5 years already... That was a fun race to watch. Perez is a top driver, easily top 7, I think he has proven himself to deserv a top car.
Maybe his season with McLaren ruined his chances. I hope not.


All is completely not lost / over. If Force India & he manage an uphill trajectory this year, he has a small chance to be on the radar of Ferrari (if Raikkonen leaves & Ricciardo stays withe Red Bull or joins any other team) or of Renault (if Sainz joins Red Bull & Ricciardo goes to Ferrari).

But I see the next year as his last chance to impress. All claims about his attitude don't know how far are true. He's tenacious, is good with alternate strategies & grabs opportunities if they comes his way. Since 2014 barring 2017, he's scored atleast 1 podium every year in a midfield car. Last year in Baku as well, he was positioned for a podium as well. I hope he gets a chance, even if it's Renault.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Ocon's recent frequent point finishes has now moved him ahead of Perez in the point standings. Ocon has really stepped up this year & is frequently putting Perez in his shade. Don't remember when was the last time that Perez's team mate was ahead of him in the standings!

Ocon has out qualified Perez in the last seven races and has beaten Perez 5-1 in races in which both have finished.

There are rumours as well that Renault may consider signing Ocon for 2019. This seems unlikely though as Ricciardo is bound to stay at Red Bull, which in turn will keep Sainz at Renault. Instead of getting beat, Perez should've accepted Renault's offer at the end of 2016. He declined & Hulk grabbed it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:30 pm 
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I find it curious how Ocon has in fact stepped up his game against Perez this year, to the point where I would not consider him the clearly superior driver... but no one is talking about him anymore. Is Perez's reputation simply that poor, or is it that the newest Wonderkid (Leclerc) is taking all the shine off him?

With a performance like he's been putting in this year, it just seems unfair that Ocon is being forgotten.

EDIT: 'not' should be 'now'. Highlighting it since it could potentially change the meaning of my post...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:34 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I find it curious how Ocon has in fact stepped up his game against Perez this year, to the point where I would not consider him the clearly superior driver... but no one is talking about him anymore. Is Perez's reputation simply that poor, or is it that the newest Wonderkid (Leclerc) is taking all the shine off him?

With a performance like he's been putting in this year, it just seems unfair that Ocon is being forgotten.


Neither. The FI is not a regular points scorer and Perez is good enough to almost match him but underrated so he doesn't get the props he deserves for beating him. Its the nightmare combo for a driver trying to prove himself. If the FI was in the same position as Renault are this season there would be a lot of pressure on Merc to put Ocon in the car.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:43 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:

...Now we constantly hear about how Ocon is a future Mercedes driver despite the fact that Perez has bested him both on Saturdays and Sundays as a teammate.

...As for Ocon; I don't get all the hype. Sure he had a good career in the junior categories but he hasn't been that great in F1. I'd say he's clearly an F1-level driver but to me his abilities are at the journeyman level relative to the field. He's mediocre and I would love for someone to explain to me why he should be talked about as a future Merc driver.



UnlikeUday wrote:

Ocon's recent frequent point finishes has now moved him ahead of Perez in the point standings.

Ocon has out qualified Perez in the last seven races and has beaten Perez 5-1 in races in which both have finished.



Discuss.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:18 am 
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Hadn't Mercedes told Ocon that he needs to step it up & if he wants to be considered by Mercedes for a seat, he has to beat Perez? He's doing just that. Not that Ocon will be in Mercedes in 2019 but he's surely removing the shine from Perez.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:18 am 
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I think Ocon is just continuing on the path that was already apparent last year. While in the beginning of the year Ocon was clearly, not by much but clearly, outperformed by Perez, he started reversing that over the course of the year and probably ended it the quicker driver.
Also remember some races where Perez wouldn't let a faster Ocon by e.g. Canada where FI really threw away a possibly better result with Ocon. IIRC that could have been a podium for Ocon.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:37 am 
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mds wrote:
I think Ocon is just continuing on the path that was already apparent last year. While in the beginning of the year Ocon was clearly, not by much but cleary, outperformed by Perez, he started reversing that over the course of the year and probably ended it the quicker driver.
Also remember some races where Perez wouldn't let a faster Ocon by e.g. Canada where FI really threw away a possibly better result with Ocon. IIRC that could have been a podium for Ocon.


True. Ocon is showing much promise & it's a no brainer one day he'll be in Mercedes. His good showing is sadly going to affect Perez's reputation & his, if any chance to go to a top team will evaporate.

I remember Perez had said once last year that even when the car wasn't fast enough or didn't feel alright, Ocon had the ability to extract the most of the car & perform well.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:08 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I find it curious how Ocon has in fact stepped up his game against Perez this year, to the point where I would not consider him the clearly superior driver... but no one is talking about him anymore. Is Perez's reputation simply that poor, or is it that the newest Wonderkid (Leclerc) is taking all the shine off him?

With a performance like he's been putting in this year, it just seems unfair that Ocon is being forgotten.


Neither. The FI is not a regular points scorer and Perez is good enough to almost match him but underrated so he doesn't get the props he deserves for beating him. Its the nightmare combo for a driver trying to prove himself. If the FI was in the same position as Renault are this season there would be a lot of pressure on Merc to put Ocon in the car.

I don’t know that Perez is underrated by the fan base as a whole. From what I read on here prior to pairing with Ocon I felt he was overrated.

In general though I think a combination of FI going backward this year combined with all eyes being on Leclerc is why there might be less talk about Ocon right now.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:10 am 
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I was lucky enough to be invited to enjoy Sundays race with Force India at their garden party in the factory grounds. A real bucket list day, and an amazing experience. Both drivers appeared after the race, about 7pm to be interviewed on stage. Both were answering questions respectfully. Then there was a signing session for the people in attendence. (about 150 at this point) From my point of view, Perez didn't want to be there, didn't want to interact with anyone, refused photos, and was even talking away on his mobile while signing autographs, not acknowledging a single person. Ocon, on the other hand, was a joy! Took time to shake everyones hand, had selfies, signed multiple items for people. He even hung around afterwards to have a go on a cycling simulator, and talk to the guy who ran it. I grabbed my opportunity and had a chat with him. The guy is just thrilled to be an F1 driver, he said he wakes up every race weekend with a smile on his face knowing how lucky he is. He just loves driving. A real gent, and a pleasure to meet him. Maybe Perez has become jaded with the whole F1 circus?

On another note Vijay Mallya was also an absolute joy! Took several photos with him, and even when he was with his family he agreed to have a photo with the group of people who had invitied me!

Tried to attach images but came up with an error. Sorry.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:34 am 
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LithoBlitho wrote:
I was lucky enough to be invited to enjoy Sundays race with Force India at their garden party in the factory grounds. A real bucket list day, and an amazing experience. Both drivers appeared after the race, about 7pm to be interviewed on stage. Both were answering questions respectfully. Then there was a signing session for the people in attendence. (about 150 at this point) From my point of view, Perez didn't want to be there, didn't want to interact with anyone, refused photos, and was even talking away on his mobile while signing autographs, not acknowledging a single person. Ocon, on the other hand, was a joy! Took time to shake everyones hand, had selfies, signed multiple items for people. He even hung around afterwards to have a go on a cycling simulator, and talk to the guy who ran it. I grabbed my opportunity and had a chat with him. The guy is just thrilled to be an F1 driver, he said he wakes up every race weekend with a smile on his face knowing how lucky he is. He just loves driving. A real gent, and a pleasure to meet him. Maybe Perez has become jaded with the whole F1 circus?

On another note Vijay Mallya was also an absolute joy! Took several photos with him, and even when he was with his family he agreed to have a photo with the group of people who had invitied me!

Tried to attach images but came up with an error. Sorry.


Lucky You. It should be a memorable experience that should be cherished forever.

As for the drivers, don't know if Checo was always with an attitude or did he become a brash driver with time? I did read comments / assumptions that his egoistic nature was the main reason for him to be ousted from McLaren. This year he's being overshadowed by Ocon fair'n'square & wonder if this was the reason behind his foul mood as the last race (Silverstone) con scored 6 points whereas Perez scored 1 point. Don't know if ever (in Force India) any team mate was ahead of Perez ever in the driver standings.

Ocon looks a fun guy. Don't let his sweet smile fool You as he's 1 hell of a racer, having speed, craftsmanship & good technical ability to understand the car. He's performing as per how Mercedes wanted him to do so & he knows he'll be driving a Mercedes in the near future. He's young & hungry to make a name for himself in F1.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:32 pm 
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In regard to Ocon has anyone seen the latest podcast on the Official F1 site, Ocon's road to F1 was a far cry to let's say someone like Lance Stroll.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/feat ... ero-s.html

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:30 am 
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pokerman wrote:
In regard to Ocon has anyone seen the latest podcast on the Official F1 site, Ocon's road to F1 was a far cry to let's say someone like Lance Stroll.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/feat ... ero-s.html


Yeah. No wonder he seems a nice guy & grounded. One of the forum members had said he was lucky to be a guest at Force India during the British Grand Prix & he cherished his interaction with Ocon. Thank goodness he's in safe hands (Mercedes) & will rightly be in their team in the near future.

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Last edited by UnlikeUday on Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:09 am 
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I must say, I am a believer now (at least somewhat). I'm not sure that he's a future WDC but he does look to at least be a high-level talent out there. He has well and truly bested Perez so far this season. With Bottas signing for Mercedes, that seat is out of the question for the next year or two but I think the opportunities will be there soon if he can keep this up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:05 am 
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Location: Mumbai, India
sandman1347 wrote:
I must say, I am a believer now (at least somewhat). I'm not sure that he's a future WDC but he does look to at least be a high-level talent out there. He has well and truly bested Perez so far this season. With Bottas signing for Mercedes, that seat is out of the question for the next year or two but I think the opportunities will be there soon if he can keep this up.


Ocon is young so has time on his side. No wonder he's in demand from Renault. If he does leave, Checo may stay or may move to Haas (as per rumors of Haas being interested in him). Stroll & Kubica in the (newly lead) Force India wouldn't be such a great line up. Russell may come in the 2nd seat & Kubica could get a full time seat at Williams.

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