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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:32 pm 
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Instead of making the 10,000th thread about Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Dan or Max; I'd like to discuss the Force India pair and something that is a growing annoyance for me. I'll cut right to the chase. Why doesn't Perez get more respect? I can't think of another driver to have so many podium finishes in mediocre cars and not get an opportunity out of it. This guy was scoring podiums in the Sauber as a youngster. Okay, he had a bumpy year at McLaren but he seemed to just about match Jenson for pace despite losing out to him in the points. At Force India, he has consistently out-performed his teammates in the races. He hasn't always beaten them in qualifying but I really think that he has been the best midfield driver of the V6 turbo era.

It bothers me that he doesn't get the respect that should go along with that. What's worse, his teammates are always being talked up despite losing to him. We've all seen Hulk get the factory drive and the big salary at Renault despite losing to Perez as a teammate and failing to score a podium while Perez racked up multiple trips to the rostrum in the same car. Now we constantly hear about how Ocon is a future Mercedes driver despite the fact that Perez has bested him both on Saturdays and Sundays as a teammate. Why is it that Perez's achievements are ignored? To me, he's a poor man's Ricciardo. He's a racer and an opportunist. I'd like to see him given a shot on a better team before his career ends.

As for Ocon; I don't get all the hype. Sure he had a good career in the junior categories but he hasn't been that great in F1. I'd say he's clearly an F1-level driver but to me his abilities are at the journeyman level relative to the field. He's mediocre and I would love for someone to explain to me why he should be talked about as a future Merc driver.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:03 am 
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We'll if it makes you feel any better, Perez is my favourite driver on the grid since JB retired and I feel the same.

I'd love to see him jump into the Ferrari seat when Kimi finally retires. But sadly, I think that's doubtful.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:50 am 
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Why? Cuz he bollocked his chance with McLaren and he's a bit of a Hampton lately.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:00 am 
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Presently it's his on track attitude with Ocon which is still there, that's not going to impress a top team.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:08 am 
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Racism has played a big role on it, normally European drivers get much more interest, and there’s also a growing pressure and bias towards Ocon beating Perez to justify his value and prove himself as a deserving Mercedes driver, the problem is that Checo is a very tough referal and Ocon hasn’t been able to prove himself better (even if the media is heavily biased). I even think Force India has been showing some favoritism for Ocon to please Mercedes and have not been fair enough with the best driver they've ever had, many of last year’s inccidents could have been avoided with tougher management. However Checo hasn’t always taken the right decisions, he rejected a nice Renault offer to bet on a Ferrari seat and they went for Hulkemberg instead. I really hope ha can find a car where he can show his full pottential before it’s to late


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:28 am 
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Deep_blue wrote:
Racism has played a big role on it, normally European drivers get much more interest, and there’s also a growing pressure and bias towards Ocon beating Perez to justify his value and prove himself as a deserving Mercedes driver, the problem is that Checo is a very tough referal and Ocon hasn’t been able to prove himself better (even if the media is heavily biased). I even think Force India has been showing some favoritism for Ocon to please Mercedes and have not been fair enough with the best driver they've ever had, many of last year’s inccidents could have been avoided with tougher management. However Checo hasn’t always taken the right decisions, he rejected a nice Renault offer to bet on a Ferrari seat and they went for Hulkemberg instead. I really hope ha can find a car where he can show his full pottential before it’s to late

The racism stance is ridiculous, I'm guessing the team orders would be to favour Perez, the best driver that Force India have ever had?

By the way it was Perez that started all the bs driving.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:43 am 
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Perez is a better driver and the press and Mercedes is behind Ocon simple.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:50 am 
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We'll see about Ocon, but I've rated Perez over Hulkenberg for a long time, and as one of the top 6 or so drivers on the grid (estimate). His stock dropped for me with the further insights into his temperament last season, in the races and in a curious naughty boy exchange with Charlie in one of the race debriefs. That might sound silly, but before that point I wondered if this guy could ascend to be a world champion driver if given the chance, but his attitude and aspects of his psychological makeup (from afar) sort of capped how good I could see him as being overall. I do not see him as a WDC calibre driver and think he's a level below the one-time Champions I can think of and know about.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:47 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Instead of making the 10,000th thread about Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Dan or Max; I'd like to discuss the Force India pair and something that is a growing annoyance for me. I'll cut right to the chase. Why doesn't Perez get more respect? I can't think of another driver to have so many podium finishes in mediocre cars and not get an opportunity out of it. This guy was scoring podiums in the Sauber as a youngster. Okay, he had a bumpy year at McLaren but he seemed to just about match Jenson for pace despite losing out to him in the points. At Force India, he has consistently out-performed his teammates in the races. He hasn't always beaten them in qualifying but I really think that he has been the best midfield driver of the V6 turbo era.

It bothers me that he doesn't get the respect that should go along with that. What's worse, his teammates are always being talked up despite losing to him. We've all seen Hulk get the factory drive and the big salary at Renault despite losing to Perez as a teammate and failing to score a podium while Perez racked up multiple trips to the rostrum in the same car. Now we constantly hear about how Ocon is a future Mercedes driver despite the fact that Perez has bested him both on Saturdays and Sundays as a teammate. Why is it that Perez's achievements are ignored? To me, he's a poor man's Ricciardo. He's a racer and an opportunist. I'd like to see him given a shot on a better team before his career ends.

As for Ocon; I don't get all the hype. Sure he had a good career in the junior categories but he hasn't been that great in F1. I'd say he's clearly an F1-level driver but to me his abilities are at the journeyman level relative to the field. He's mediocre and I would love for someone to explain to me why he should be talked about as a future Merc driver.


Firstly, nice thread! :D

I've read across sites some saying Checo's Baku podium was lucky. (But then wasn't Hamilton's win & Raikkonen's 2nd place even). He was destined to be on the Baku podium last year as well but Ocon collided with him & got him retired. He surely gets a lot of criticism from all corners but he also has admirers. His 2016 run to the podium was 1 of his best races, if not the best.

Hulk gets more praise mainly because he's got a better & a more fabulous junior record than Checo. Hulk has always been a better qualifier but Checo has been a better racer. Checo's driving style is more like Ricciardo's. He'll try to grab an opportunity if there exists one. Hulk on the other hand prefers to be safe & rather be consistent to score some points.

Ocon gets more media attention as he's a Mercedes junior driver. To be fair, he looked a little stronger this weekend but binned it in the 3rd corner. He needs to learn from Checo to be patient & not to try to win races on the 1st lap.

Checo's a complete package, atleast for the midfield teams. He's not only a tenacious racer but also comes with a good set of sponsors. Attractive in all rights. People say that he was poor in 2013 in the McLaren. Infact, the McLaren was poorer. It was his 1st year & ofcourse Button would be quicker than him most of the times due to Button already being well settled in the team. He was also criticized for his attitude which he was he was ousted from the team. It was his misfortune to join McLaren which I also feel has severed the ties between himself & Ferrari as he was their junior driver.

I hope he does get a shot somewhere but I know there's serious competition from the youngsters. But considering his experience & results, he deserves a chance.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:15 am 
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Perez seems to be one of those drivers people don't want to do well. Like his face doesn't fit somehow.

That being said he was offered the Renault drive before Hulk but his backers turned it down.

I don't think Ocon's debut seasons should be written off as one indicating an average F1 driver. It was very strong for a rookie year. If he wants to look like someone who will be winning championships one day though then he will need to start beating Perez.

Ocon's biggest problem is how underrated Perez is, and that's a career killer.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:32 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Perez seems to be one of those drivers people don't want to do well. Like his face doesn't fit somehow.

That being said he was offered the Renault drive before Hulk but his backers turned it down.

I don't think Ocon's debut seasons should be written off as one indicating an average F1 driver. It was very strong for a rookie year. If he wants to look like someone who will be winning championships one day though then he will need to start beating Perez.

Ocon's biggest problem is how underrated Perez is, and that's a career killer.


Exactly. I rate Ocon very high *because* I rate Perez very high. I think Ocon has more than shown he's on that level after less than two seasons in F1. Still think it's one of the strongest driver pairings in the sport. Would only rate Mercedes and RB higher to be honest.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:25 am 
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I think Perez is good, but I think Bottas is just slightly better. He makes less mistakes IMO. It is true that Perez got more podiums in 2016 though. Though at least 2 of Perez's podiums in his career were very lucky last lap changes. Russia 2015 and yesterdays race. Both due to Bottas retiring through no fault of his own. And the level of top teams drivers retiring yesterday will have helped him a fair bit and I don't really see it as an outstanding drive. Russia 2015 was however. I can't say he didn't make the most of it as it was only on the last lap that he lost 3rd position.

I think at the moment that Perez is marginally better than Ocon. But Ocon has got this good very quickly and I'm not sure how much longer Perez will be better. That said, Ocon made an error yesterday and Perez also got a penalty too. Perez probably is good enough to deserve a better team, but I think that Bottas would do a better job than either of the Force India drivers at the moment. Since Australia, he really seems to have started performing well and often looking better than Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:29 pm 
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IMO I see both Checo and Ocon better than Bottas, the problem is tht none of them would be willing to play second fiddle just as Bottas would, so for Mercedes it might not worth the gamble. I see Bottas at a Hulk level, pretty good, but somehow plain and predictable, without that killer insctinct of the truly greats


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 12:58 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Perez seems to be one of those drivers people don't want to do well. Like his face doesn't fit somehow.

That being said he was offered the Renault drive before Hulk but his backers turned it down.

I don't think Ocon's debut seasons should be written off as one indicating an average F1 driver. It was very strong for a rookie year. If he wants to look like someone who will be winning championships one day though then he will need to start beating Perez.

Ocon's biggest problem is how underrated Perez is, and that's a career killer.

Well Perez's stock will rise if the Hulk continues to beat Sainz.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:12 am 
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I think Ocon has improved relative to Perez, on balance I would have said he was the better performing driver before this weekend. I blame both drivers for the first lap carnage - Ocon 100% at fault for his retirement and Perez triggered the Sirotkin mess by trying to get aggressive with Ocon (again)

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:48 am 
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IMO the most evenly matched pair I have ever seen in F1. I don't understand the Ocon hype though.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:09 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
IMO the most evenly matched pair I have ever seen in F1. I don't understand the Ocon hype though.


He was able to almost match a very strong team mate in his rookie season? That's pretty unusual.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:11 am 
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Deep_blue wrote:
Racism...


Stopped reading right there.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 8:52 am 
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yes Perez does well when 2 Red Bulls and a Merc drop out when in front of him....................


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:29 am 
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PT03 wrote:
yes Perez does well when 2 Red Bulls and a Merc drop out when in front of him....................


You expect Perez to beat them fair'n'square?

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:35 am 
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mcdo wrote:
I think Ocon has improved relative to Perez, on balance I would have said he was the better performing driver before this weekend. I blame both drivers for the first lap carnage - Ocon 100% at fault for his retirement and Perez triggered the Sirotkin mess by trying to get aggressive with Ocon (again)

Again?

You see this kind of thing if noticed by the top teams is not going to go down well.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:46 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
PT03 wrote:
yes Perez does well when 2 Red Bulls and a Merc drop out when in front of him....................


You expect Perez to beat them fair'n'square?


Good question?

The bar is set so high for Perez, he went up against Hulk and beat him, but that's not enough I can't see what the fuss is about Ocon.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 12:29 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Deep_blue wrote:
Racism...


Stopped reading right there.

Yeah, me too.

Which race is Perez? Caucasian. Has he ever had racial problems? No.

I actually heard Perez making some jesting remarks about blondes, which would be racial if he wasn't Caucasian as well. So, these remarks were just stupid, but not racial.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:25 pm 
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I seem to recall that Perez started his practice of racing his team mate harder than anyone else on track during his season at McLaren. Whether it's trying to show he's capable of racing with a WDC in the same car or putting a rookie in place swapping paint with the other car from your garage isn't going to play well with the big teams.

I doubt that Mercedes would've worked so hard to get Bottas if he had a history of tangling with Massa.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:19 pm 
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What Perez does is he finds himself in a position where he is there to score podium when the top teams c()ck up.

He can be a moving chicane when needed, but I still dont think he has shown any exceptional race craft. He showed some glimpses during the sauber era. But fell flat at McLaren. Great drivers never do as badly as he did when they get chance in top team.
For me, he is just an average driver in a car under him that allows him to get those crucial podiums due to circumstances. Ocon this time has done well against him when both have had clean races.
Not a bad driver but not a great driver either. Essentially if he decides to move or go to any other team, I dont think Force India's fortunes will go down.
It has nothing to do with racism. He came with lot of money and got all the chances he deserved. Money talks in modern F1. Not race.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:20 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
I think Ocon has improved relative to Perez, on balance I would have said he was the better performing driver before this weekend. I blame both drivers for the first lap carnage - Ocon 100% at fault for his retirement and Perez triggered the Sirotkin mess by trying to get aggressive with Ocon (again)


Huh? The only one to blame was Sirotkin, who braked later than every driver around him and simply drove into the back of Force India:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPGPJ1nlGrI

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:27 pm 
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After the big 5 of Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Alonso and Verstappen; I definitely consider Perez the 6th best driver on the grid without a doubt.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think Ocon has improved relative to Perez, on balance I would have said he was the better performing driver before this weekend. I blame both drivers for the first lap carnage - Ocon 100% at fault for his retirement and Perez triggered the Sirotkin mess by trying to get aggressive with Ocon (again)

Again?

You see this kind of thing if noticed by the top teams is not going to go down well.


Accept it's not true in this case.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:46 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
What Perez does is he finds himself in a position where he is there to score podium when the top teams c()ck up.

He can be a moving chicane when needed, but I still dont think he has shown any exceptional race craft. He showed some glimpses during the sauber era. But fell flat at McLaren. Great drivers never do as badly as he did when they get chance in top team.
For me, he is just an average driver in a car under him that allows him to get those crucial podiums due to circumstances. Ocon this time has done well against him when both have had clean races.
Not a bad driver but not a great driver either. Essentially if he decides to move or go to any other team, I dont think Force India's fortunes will go down.
It has nothing to do with racism. He came with lot of money and got all the chances he deserved. Money talks in modern F1. Not race.


McLaren was great in 2013?

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:06 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
What Perez does is he finds himself in a position where he is there to score podium when the top teams c()ck up.

He can be a moving chicane when needed, but I still dont think he has shown any exceptional race craft. He showed some glimpses during the sauber era. But fell flat at McLaren. Great drivers never do as badly as he did when they get chance in top team.
For me, he is just an average driver in a car under him that allows him to get those crucial podiums due to circumstances. Ocon this time has done well against him when both have had clean races.
Not a bad driver but not a great driver either. Essentially if he decides to move or go to any other team, I dont think Force India's fortunes will go down.
It has nothing to do with racism. He came with lot of money and got all the chances he deserved. Money talks in modern F1. Not race.


McLaren was great in 2013?

I would say so, yes. They were still unquestionably great in 2012 and 2013 was the start of the decline, but they were still very much one of the elite then


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:32 pm 
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Ocon is 21 and in his 2nd full F1 season, Perez is 28 and in his 8th full season and Ocon is a match for him. If you assume that Ocon can improve to the degree that most top level drivers do at Perez's age he will be quite a bit better. This is the reason Mercedes seem to rate him so highly.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Grizzly B wrote:
Ocon is 21 and in his 2nd full F1 season, Perez is 28 and in his 8th full season and Ocon is a match for him. If you assume that Ocon can improve to the degree that most top level drivers do at Perez's age he will be quite a bit better. This is the reason Mercedes seem to rate him so highly.


Ocon seems like a good consistent driver. But he doesn't seem to have a killer instinct or a really leading personality. Not a person I'd choose to lead a WDC charge.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 9:59 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Deep_blue wrote:
Racism...


Stopped reading right there.

Yeah, me too.

Which race is Perez? Caucasian. Has he ever had racial problems? No.

I actually heard Perez making some jesting remarks about blondes, which would be racial if he wasn't Caucasian as well. So, these remarks were just stupid, but not racial.


Sergio perez is mexican NOT caucasian. He is the 2nd most successful mexican driver of all time. Pedro rodriguez is the 1st having won 2 races (67 south african gp & 70 belgium gp ) along with 7 podiums

The fact that he is mexican could be a reason a team such as ferrari would over look him (no im not saying thats why but its possible due to the herritage of ferrari)

Sergio is a talent and i would love to see him in a top team but honestly i dont see it happening. Which really is something that many motors sports have in common and that is, talented drivers dont get the right drive they deserve.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:58 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Deep_blue wrote:
Racism...


Stopped reading right there.

Yeah, me too.

Which race is Perez? Caucasian. Has he ever had racial problems? No.

I actually heard Perez making some jesting remarks about blondes, which would be racial if he wasn't Caucasian as well. So, these remarks were just stupid, but not racial.


Sergio perez is mexican NOT caucasian. He is the 2nd most successful mexican driver of all time. Pedro rodriguez is the 1st having won 2 races (67 south african gp & 70 belgium gp ) along with 7 podiums

The fact that he is mexican could be a reason a team such as ferrari would over look him (no im not saying thats why but its possible due to the herritage of ferrari)

Sergio is a talent and i would love to see him in a top team but honestly i dont see it happening. Which really is something that many motors sports have in common and that is, talented drivers dont get the right drive they deserve.

That is a misconception that Latino is a race, let alone Mexican. In my spare time, I have translated enough material to my anthropologist friend, to know these things.

Actually, here is the quotation:

"However, there is a common misconception in the US that Hispanic/Latino is a race"*

*Horsman, Reginald, Race and Manifest Destiny: The Origins of American Radial Anglo-Saxonism, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1981 p. 210.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Deep_blue wrote:
Racism...


Stopped reading right there.

Yeah, me too.

Which race is Perez? Caucasian. Has he ever had racial problems? No.

I actually heard Perez making some jesting remarks about blondes, which would be racial if he wasn't Caucasian as well. So, these remarks were just stupid, but not racial.


Sergio perez is mexican NOT caucasian. He is the 2nd most successful mexican driver of all time. Pedro rodriguez is the 1st having won 2 races (67 south african gp & 70 belgium gp ) along with 7 podiums

The fact that he is mexican could be a reason a team such as ferrari would over look him (no im not saying thats why but its possible due to the herritage of ferrari)

Sergio is a talent and i would love to see him in a top team but honestly i dont see it happening. Which really is something that many motors sports have in common and that is, talented drivers dont get the right drive they deserve.


He is both Mexican and caucasian.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:34 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Deep_blue wrote:
Racism...


Stopped reading right there.

Yeah, me too.

Which race is Perez? Caucasian. Has he ever had racial problems? No.

I actually heard Perez making some jesting remarks about blondes, which would be racial if he wasn't Caucasian as well. So, these remarks were just stupid, but not racial.


Sergio perez is mexican NOT caucasian. He is the 2nd most successful mexican driver of all time. Pedro rodriguez is the 1st having won 2 races (67 south african gp & 70 belgium gp ) along with 7 podiums

The fact that he is mexican could be a reason a team such as ferrari would over look him (no im not saying thats why but its possible due to the herritage of ferrari)

Sergio is a talent and i would love to see him in a top team but honestly i dont see it happening. Which really is something that many motors sports have in common and that is, talented drivers dont get the right drive they deserve.


He is both Mexican and caucasian.


Who was born in mexico lol

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:45 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Deep_blue wrote:
Racism...


Stopped reading right there.

Yeah, me too.

Which race is Perez? Caucasian. Has he ever had racial problems? No.

I actually heard Perez making some jesting remarks about blondes, which would be racial if he wasn't Caucasian as well. So, these remarks were just stupid, but not racial.


Sergio perez is mexican NOT caucasian. He is the 2nd most successful mexican driver of all time. Pedro rodriguez is the 1st having won 2 races (67 south african gp & 70 belgium gp ) along with 7 podiums

The fact that he is mexican could be a reason a team such as ferrari would over look him (no im not saying thats why but its possible due to the herritage of ferrari)

Sergio is a talent and i would love to see him in a top team but honestly i dont see it happening. Which really is something that many motors sports have in common and that is, talented drivers dont get the right drive they deserve.

That is a misconception that Latino is a race, let alone Mexican. In my spare time, I have translated enough material to my anthropologist friend, to know these things.

Actually, here is the quotation:

"However, there is a common misconception in the US that Hispanic/Latino is a race"*

*Horsman, Reginald, Race and Manifest Destiny: The Origins of American Radial Anglo-Saxonism, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1981 p. 210.


Actually

"People who identify their origin as Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish may be of any race."
https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

So ill let sergio be the judge of what box he checks but i doubt its the box labeled "white".

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Awards: Sergio perez trophy & Podium specialist
PF1 pick 3 2015: constructors 2nd, singles 5th
Autosport Gp 2016/17 - 5th
F1 Oracle 2017: 2nd (6 wins), 2016:5th (2wins)


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:00 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think Ocon has improved relative to Perez, on balance I would have said he was the better performing driver before this weekend. I blame both drivers for the first lap carnage - Ocon 100% at fault for his retirement and Perez triggered the Sirotkin mess by trying to get aggressive with Ocon (again)

Again?

You see this kind of thing if noticed by the top teams is not going to go down well.


Accept it's not true in this case.

Not true that Perez is still being over aggressive against Ocon on the race starts?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:36 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Grizzly B wrote:
Ocon is 21 and in his 2nd full F1 season, Perez is 28 and in his 8th full season and Ocon is a match for him. If you assume that Ocon can improve to the degree that most top level drivers do at Perez's age he will be quite a bit better. This is the reason Mercedes seem to rate him so highly.


Ocon seems like a good consistent driver. But he doesn't seem to have a killer instinct or a really leading personality. Not a person I'd choose to lead a WDC charge.


I can bet he has a bigger killer instinct than Hulk.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 3:38 am 
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Love to see underdog getting podium again. They both are evenly matched. I think Perez chances are very unlikely for a top team now. May be he should have moved to Renault. FI really get the best of what limited resources they have. They need a new buyer or partners but I doubt they can be 4th best team again.

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