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Who was at fault?
Ricciardo mostly/completely at fault 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
Ricciardo at fault, but a racing incident 11%  11%  [ 15 ]
Verstappen mostly/completely at fault 69%  69%  [ 96 ]
Verstappen at fault, but a racing incident 19%  19%  [ 26 ]
Total votes : 140
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Simple poll, just to crowd source the forum's opinion...

(Edited because my phone's autocorrect changed Ricciardo's name)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:41 pm 
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Max. Moving twice (best seen from the outside camera).

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Max's fault. He has gotten away with it in the past.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Seeing it again will help further more in deciding:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:47 pm 
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4 mistakes in 4 races now too


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Mr-E wrote:
Max's fault. He has gotten away with it in the past.

As I mentioned in another thread; Max's luck has truly run out. He has in fact gotten away with making multiple defensive moves in the past against the likes of Raikkonen and Hamilton as well as others over the years. This year, his unsafe driving is being punished and it is a Draconian punishment.

Maybe Max will begin to understand what everyone is talking about with regards to his driving now that he is no longer avoiding the consequences.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Verstappen's fault for making two defensive moves on the same straight. Especially when the second move was so late that Ricciardo had no opportunity to take avoiding action.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Verstappen moved twice. Can't believe Anthony Davidson defending him on Sky.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:53 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:55 pm 
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Doug wrote:
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Even in this Verstappen is moving the same way to Ric but slightly later

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
Verstappen moved twice. Can't believe Anthony Davidson defending him on Sky.
I wouldn't mind hearing his views though. Could you summarize?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:57 pm 
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I was under the impression that you get 1 defensive move, and then you are allowed to move back to take your line through the corner. Given that Dan was never alongside in any capacity, going by my understanding (and correct me if i'm wrong) then i'm not really sure what Max has done so wrong in this incident, other than defending a bit harder than what you probably should be doing to a teammate.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:58 pm 
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yeah on Dutch TV surprise surprise they blame Ricciardo and think he should apologise to Max. The bias is quite painful to watch sometimes


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
I was under the impression that you get 1 defensive move, and then you are allowed to move back to take your line through the corner. Given that Dan was never alongside in any capacity, going by my understanding (and correct me if i'm wrong) then i'm not really sure what Max has done so wrong in this incident, other than defending a bit harder than what you probably should be doing to a teammate.


I think this firstly and most importantly.

He moved before braking. But the braking line was weird and I don't think he would have made the corner. They both screwed up and their interviews seemed that they both got a lashing. There will be team orders from now.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Yellowbin74 wrote:
Verstappen moved twice. Can't believe Anthony Davidson defending him on Sky.
I wouldn't mind hearing his views though. Could you summarize?

Can't remember it all.
He basically said racing incident but wouldn't be surprised if team orders might be on the cards.
The racing was hard but fair up until that point and apportioned no blame.

How can moving twice not be his fault??

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
I was under the impression that you get 1 defensive move, and then you are allowed to move back to take your line through the corner. Given that Dan was never alongside in any capacity, going by my understanding (and correct me if i'm wrong) then i'm not really sure what Max has done so wrong in this incident, other than defending a bit harder than what you probably should be doing to a teammate.


Moving that far to the left was not taking his line through the corner. You can see after he moved right, and then moved left... just before they collide... he actually starts moving right again to take his line through the corner... He is weaving all over the place.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:05 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Yellowbin74 wrote:
Verstappen moved twice. Can't believe Anthony Davidson defending him on Sky.
I wouldn't mind hearing his views though. Could you summarize?

Can't remember it all.
He basically said racing incident but wouldn't be surprised if team orders might be on the cards.
The racing was hard but fair up until that point and apportioned no blame.

How can moving twice not be his fault??
While I don't doubt for a second that Max's driving caused the accident, you might say he wasn't bound to leave a car's width of space, because he wasn't on the racing line when his defence started. You might even consider he did leave a car's width of space on the inside.

Not moving in the braking area is, I believe, a drivers' agreement rather than a sporting rule.

I wish I could have heard what Jos said, on-screen.

Edit: thanks for you explanation!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Completely Verstappens fault.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
yeah on Dutch TV surprise surprise they blame Ricciardo and think he should apologise to Max. The bias is quite painful to watch sometimes
I remember their defence of him for going off-track at Austin last year. My respect for Robert Doornbos took a serious dent that day.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:12 pm 
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It's goin to be interesting to see how Red Bull will handle this. If they protect Max, it could affect Dan's decision to where he'd like to drive next year.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:13 pm 
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I think both are at fault, and since there is no option in the poll a did not voted.

It was a combination of Max double block, and we have seen worse from him in the past and Daniel dive bombs.

Daniel tried an inside dive bomb (and he does this a lot, gets away with it and people praise him) but Max switch back . Daniel gave himself no margin. Both at fault


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:22 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
I think both are at fault, and since there is no option in the poll a did not voted.

It was a combination of Max double block, and we have seen worse from him in the past and Daniel dive bombs.

Daniel tried an inside dive bomb (and he does this a lot, gets away with it and people praise him) but Max switch back . Daniel gave himself no margin. Both at fault


This is closest to my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:25 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
I think both are at fault, and since there is no option in the poll a did not voted.

It was a combination of Max double block, and we have seen worse from him in the past and Daniel dive bombs.

Daniel tried an inside dive bomb (and he does this a lot, gets away with it and people praise him) but Max switch back . Daniel gave himself no margin. Both at fault

I'm no fan of Ricciardo dive bombs. But the key above is Max switched back. He'd already gone one way to cover Ricciardo, so Ricciardo was entitled to think the other way was safe. Max can't keep weaving left to right all the time


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:29 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
I think both are at fault, and since there is no option in the poll a did not voted.

It was a combination of Max double block, and we have seen worse from him in the past and Daniel dive bombs.

Daniel tried an inside dive bomb (and he does this a lot, gets away with it and people praise him) but Max switch back . Daniel gave himself no margin. Both at fault


I disagree.
Max had already moved to cover Dani's first move around the outside.
He isn't allowed to move back and cover an inside dive bomb as you call it.
All on Max.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Zoue/LazT800

You can make a case that way, but you have to know who you are racing! Dan insisted on the inside, when Max entry was already compromised, he should have swiched wide, this is something Alonso does a lot, makes you defend inside and then switches to the outside.

Even if Max held his line Dans would have had trouble making the corner.

Both lacked racecraft in that situation, added that they are on the same team.

On the restart look at where Kimi positions, far right. He is not the fastest but that is the kind of racing you see from seasoned drivers like Alonso and him. Dan should have set up better knowing Max, but insyead relied on his dive bombs and paid a price. This is why I find them both at fault.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:40 pm 
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im gonna defend verstappen a bit here. yes he makes 2 moves but he doesnt move that far to the right and then that much back to the left. hes certainly done worse. i dont think its a crazy movement in braking area or leading up to it. and i defend him because i think ric just braked too late. maybe because max was moving around but you can hear ric is on the brakes well before he crashes and he locks up and loses braking power. hes then powerless to stop the collision but u think the main cause is ric braking too late regardless of max' position.

saying that and looking at the race as a whole and previous races, max has a very similar mentality to marc marquez.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Jayman wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I was under the impression that you get 1 defensive move, and then you are allowed to move back to take your line through the corner. Given that Dan was never alongside in any capacity, going by my understanding (and correct me if i'm wrong) then i'm not really sure what Max has done so wrong in this incident, other than defending a bit harder than what you probably should be doing to a teammate.


Moving that far to the left was not taking his line through the corner. You can see after he moved right, and then moved left... just before they collide... he actually starts moving right again to take his line through the corner... He is weaving all over the place.

but since the stewards did nothing, i assume Max didn't break any rules. I'm also aware drivers cannot do a double block. then again, Max had the chance to take his line so it's not considered a block.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:03 pm 
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I'd say both.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:05 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
im gonna defend verstappen a bit here. yes he makes 2 moves but he doesnt move that far to the right and then that much back to the left. hes certainly done worse. i dont think its a crazy movement in braking area or leading up to it. and i defend him because i think ric just braked too late. maybe because max was moving around but you can hear ric is on the brakes well before he crashes and he locks up and loses braking power. hes then powerless to stop the collision but u think the main cause is ric braking too late regardless of max' position.

saying that and looking at the race as a whole and previous races, max has a very similar mentality to marc marquez.


I have seen the replay now a lot of times and I am looking more at Daniel being to blame. He applied the brakes too late.

A few laps before when Sainz passed Max, his DRS flaps closes (signaling brake application) more or less at the same spot on the track where Daniel DRS closes, but Sainz is way to the right on the ideal racing line, Daniel is shooting for a very shallow entry, needs to get rid of a lot of speed to make the corner. I do not think he would have made it.

On the other side of the argument Max does move once to block but leaves space on the inside for Daniel, he does not make a huge double move, to me his is borderline acceptable, Daniel then turns back into Max rear and hits him, Max did not closed the door, Daniel turned into him.

Daniel's move had limited chances of sticking, instead of looking for an inside pass he should have went wide, but all is good in retrospect. Leaning towards Daniels fault.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:05 pm 
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I think today was a case of immovable object vs. unstoppable force.

DR kept getting away with divebombs, was gonna end in tears one day. Max keep moving in the braking zone was gonna end in tears one day.

Today it did.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:10 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
I think today was a case of immovable object vs. unstoppable force.

DR kept getting away with divebombs, was gonna end in tears one day. Max keep moving in the braking zone was gonna end in tears one day.

Today it did.

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:15 pm 
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"As drivers, we all know that moving in the braking zone is the most dangerous thing you can do - because the guy [behind] is going at 300km/h and he probably hasn't hit the brakes yet"
Jenson Button, 2016.

The 'Verstappen rule' was removed making today's collision not entirely Verstappen's fault. However he broke an important unwritten rule of driver etiquette.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:22 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
im gonna defend verstappen a bit here. yes he makes 2 moves but he doesnt move that far to the right and then that much back to the left. hes certainly done worse. i dont think its a crazy movement in braking area or leading up to it. and i defend him because i think ric just braked too late. maybe because max was moving around but you can hear ric is on the brakes well before he crashes and he locks up and loses braking power. hes then powerless to stop the collision but u think the main cause is ric braking too late regardless of max' position.

saying that and looking at the race as a whole and previous races, max has a very similar mentality to marc marquez.


I disagree, ricc sold him the dummy on the outside. Max then buys it and takes the bait. Then see's the real move on the inside and closes the door on ricc.

Ricc braking late has nothing to do with what max did. Max's actions were what lead to the collision. Max holds his line collision never happens as ricc would have gone inside and made the move stick. Max bought the dummy and decided "ill show him".

Mad held up ricc multiple times during the race. Redbull should have stepped in knowing that ricc was coming full steam ahead with tires up too temp.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:23 pm 
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Actually I blame Christian Horner and Red Bull for this one. Those two were going at it all race, but how many times can you trade places without an incident. It should have been over when Ricardo passed before the last pit stop, but then the team allowed Max to undercut Riccardo and set this up. Riccardo was faster all day, they should have left Max out for a few extra laps, neutralized the undercut and they would not be in this position. To now blame the drivers is a lack of leadership.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Ricciardo and Verstappen drive like they are playing videogames and are overoptimistic with their moves and overtakes. They are making Bottas look like a Top Top driver and this alone is telling.

The RedBull car actually has some serious pace and is held back by its drivers.
They are both OVERRATED and have bought into their hype.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:33 pm 
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Longnose wrote:
Actually I blame Christian Horner and Red Bull for this one. Those two were going at it all race, but how many times can you trade places without an incident. It should have been over when Ricardo passed before the last pit stop, but then the team allowed Max to undercut Riccardo and set this up. Riccardo was faster all day, they should have left Max out for a few extra laps, neutralized the undercut and they would not be in this position. To now blame the drivers is a lack of leadership.


Ricciardo pitted first....


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Yellowbin74 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Yellowbin74 wrote:
Verstappen moved twice. Can't believe Anthony Davidson defending him on Sky.
I wouldn't mind hearing his views though. Could you summarize?

Can't remember it all.
He basically said racing incident but wouldn't be surprised if team orders might be on the cards.
The racing was hard but fair up until that point and apportioned no blame.

How can moving twice not be his fault??
While I don't doubt for a second that Max's driving caused the accident, you might say he wasn't bound to leave a car's width of space, because he wasn't on the racing line when his defence started. You might even consider he did leave a car's width of space on the inside.

Not moving in the braking area is, I believe, a drivers' agreement rather than a sporting rule.

I wish I could have heard what Jos said, on-screen.

Edit: thanks for you explanation!


Car width is a completely moot point in this. It shouldn't even be mentioned...
Same with not moving on braking zone.

The issue, as it seems clear to most now, is moving repeatedly across to cover an attack.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:40 pm 
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BOTH HAVE BEEN REPRIMANDED!!!

My take is that they are both to blame. Yes Max moved twice but I also thing Daniel braked far to late.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:44 pm 
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The stewards verdict -

"Both drivers contributed to the collision," said the statement. "The driver of car 33 [Verstappen] made two moves, both of which were relatively minor."

"The driver of car 3 [Ricciardo] admitted he left his move to overtake on the left, too late."

"It was obvious to the stewards that although the incident had its origins in the moves by car 33, the driver of car 3 also contributed to the incident."

Pretty much as I though. Max wafted around and Ricciardo broke too late.

Both Red Bull and the stewards find them equally to blame.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:47 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
The issue, as it seems clear to most now, is moving repeatedly across to cover an attack.


Moving repeatedly across a track to cover an attack is fine - think Malaysia.

Reason moving under braking, as a second movement - is an issue.

MV should've held the outside line when he bought 'the dummy', leaving room on the inside for DR.
If DR misses his braking point, he goes straight through or MV gets stronger momentum into the next straight.

By moving under braking, after buying 'the dummy', it interferes with the opponent's racing line, car aerodynamics and braking contributing to a greater chance of a racing incident.


Its no longer a formal rule - but most of the current grid seemingly recognise this as an unwritten rule allowing for safe competition.
The end of effect of this current incident will leave drivers uncomfortable overtaking MV; as they can't reliably predict his approach to driving.


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