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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:25 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
Same old same old.. Alonso this Alonso that but he is winning nothing (yet), only teammates wars.

I think the biggest fallacy is to confuse teammates performances with "ultimate" performance.
I have zero doubt if McLaren was a TOP car, Vandoorne would perform much much better but it is fair to say that Vandoorne biggest weakness now is that he is BLAND, QUIET, not confident at all and he is incapable to look after his own interest(Remember what Hamilton did in Monaco in 2007?). Had Hamilton been like Stoffel when he started, I am not sure he would be the successful driver he is today.


I have had the impression for many years now that there is something with Alonso's style that is completely foreign to his teammates and tend to make them look worse than they really are. It is like constraining your teammate to play football with his left foot(Alonso's foot) when you know that normally people tend to use their right foot.

Another example of teammate performance fallacy is Hamilton and his teammates who often "seem" to match him in term of points but not in terms of ultimate performance.
A case in point is Hamilton's qualifying record over the years where you can see that there is a gap between his Poles(vs teammates) and simply beating them in qualifying.
When there is a pole at sight, more than often than not he will take it. It happened with Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas, with the only exception of Rosberg.

2010 and 2012 WDC were there for Alonso to take(unlike Hamilton and Vettel who had their teammates free to race them, Alonso had the whole team behind him), and what went missing are the ultimate performances(mostly in qualifying and in the rain) I just talked about. Don't bring his teammates into the equation because taking teammate performance as an absolute barometer is the biggest fallacy of F1 more so if they drive for Ferrari where they will happily break your gearbox to give a cleaner starting grid slot to your "captain".

Hamilton will not collect 5th places, it is not in his nature and it is not something he has done many times to be honest, but for ultimate performance (1st places) the only guy who matches him is Vettel.

Right now, I think Alonso looks better than he really and he will gain nothing and can only lose in terms of "reputation" battling Hamilton and Vettel at the front.

Yeah that's one thing I would say against Alonso is that he does tend to weight the team in his favour.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:27 am 
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Donington93 wrote:
I favor Hamilton over Alonso, in terms of overall greatness. That is my opinion. Yet, I somehow just can't fathom that Alonso is likely to finish at two WDC's and 30 ish race wins. His career choices have been poor. Yet the skill is there. I don't know how many WDC's or race wins Vettel or Hamilton will have but its clearly many more than Alonso, yet I think Hamilton just shades him in terms of talent and Vettel is a level below. I do think that if you put Alonso in a team with a subservient teammate in an equal car to Hamilton and Hamilton with a non-subservient team mate Alonso would defeat Hamilton most of the time.

This is the kind of situation you had when Alonso was teamed with Massa at the time Hamilton was teamed with Button.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:30 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Donington93 wrote:
I favor Hamilton over Alonso, in terms of overall greatness. That is my opinion. Yet, I somehow just can't fathom that Alonso is likely to finish at two WDC's and 30 ish race wins. His career choices have been poor. Yet the skill is there. I don't know how many WDC's or race wins Vettel or Hamilton will have but its clearly many more than Alonso, yet I think Hamilton just shades him in terms of talent and Vettel is a level below. I do think that if you put Alonso in a team with a subservient teammate in an equal car to Hamilton and Hamilton with a non-subservient team mate Alonso would defeat Hamilton most of the time.


What makes Vettel below, if I may ask?

In a dominant car he was dominant, in the second best car and a midfield car he has won so what exactly makes you say he is a level below them?

Something none of the above have done.

You think that the likes of Hamilton and Alonso have only ever won in the best car, whilst this apparent midfield car was qualified in 4th position by the talent that is Bourdais.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:31 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

Wait, what?

Baku 2018, Singapore 2017, and Baku 2017. Where else?

Hamilton and Alonso have thrown away race wins too. Hamilton in particular has thrown away at least as many potential race wins as Vettel.


Mexico 2017.

Have the others really thrown away that many possible race wins in such a short time while being that experienced (not talking about rookie- or almost-rookie seasons, obviously)?

At Mexico he had already lost the lead before he hit Hamilton.

If that’s your definition of throwing a race win, Hamilton threw away potential race wins at Australia 2016, Bahrain 2016, Spain 2016, Baku 2016, Monza 2016, and Bahrain 2017.


Singapore '17, are we really counting that? He didn't even touch another car

No he never touched Kimi's car.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:35 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.


Leclerc put a Sauber in the top five so I don't get what you are saying.

Has Alonso never made a mistake? I seem to remember him driving into the back of a car in '14 that EJ said he needs to retire.

Yes you have that if you want to base his entire career on '14, yup no reason to believe that after all of all the drivers you mention only Vettel has won in a midfield car.


Well, I agree that Leclerc was better than Vettel in Baku, too. Yet, that was not the point - and I think it is a bit premature to conclude from that on Leclerc's potential to become better than Vettel.

Of course, Alonso and Hamilton make mistakes. But not as many as Vettel. And there is indication that both are quicker than him (Ricciardo, Räikkönen, di Resta), which is imperfect, of course. But there is no indication to the contrary.

Vettel drove great races in his career, no doubt, that is why I think he is the fifth best driver on the grid today, fourth best if we judge Verstappen on actual performance rather than potential. A great driver and for all I know apparently a nice guy. Just not the best, "only" close to the best.


Leclerc better than Vettel in Baku probably you started watching the race after the safety car.

Vettel the fourth best driver I cant stop laughing, let's examine the facts in his career the last time Vettel finished behind Alonso in the standings was '08, try doing the same for Hamilton, not even in his worst season in F1 in '14 did he finish behind Alonso yet he's the 4th best man you need to wake up.

Whilst Alonso and his fans are singing his praises, Vettel has written his legacy in history something Hamilton realised as well that it's not how you win but winning as of '13 he was a 1X WDC, because I'm still trying to understand the separation of man and machine as without being in the proper car he's not winning, now if we agree on that, then why would he deliberately take himself out of a championship winning car.

So you're saying that Vettel is better than Alonso because from 2009 he's always been in the better car?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:37 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Donington93 wrote:
Wait Hamilton or Alonso haven't won in cars that weren't the best? Vettel had the best car from 2009 through 2013. Both Hamilton and Alonso won races and were competitive during that era and some of their cars that they won races in during that era were pretty poor.


Correction from '10 - '13, and also Vettel too is competitive and winning races during the Mercedes domination so I don't get it.

The Red Bull was good enough to win the title in 2009.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:40 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lets take a look at Alonso's record -

2003 - 6th in WDC in the 4th best car.
2004 - 4th in WDC in the 3rd best car.
2005 - Champion in the 2nd quickest but more reliable car
2006 - Champion in probably the joint quickest car, hard to tell
2007 - 3rd in the WDC but level on points with 2nd. I believe in the 2nd fastest car. Others will disagree, lets not open that can of worms.
2008 - 5th in the WDC in the 4th best car
2009 - 9th in the WDC, car's were so close it's hard to order them but probably 8th best on average
2010 - 2nd in WDC in the 2nd best car
2011 - 4th in the WDC in the 3rd best car
2012 - 2nd in the WDC in the 4th best car
2013 - 2nd in the WDC in either the 2nd best car but it swung around a lot.
2014 - 6th in the WDC in the 5th best car
2015 - 17th in the WDC in the 9th best car
2016 - 10th in the WDC in the 6th, or maybe 7th best car
2017 - 15th in the WDC in the 9th best car

In 15 seasons he has finished above where his car should put him, or been champion 13 times.

That seems to be quite accurate to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:55 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't believe for a second Alonso was fired but even if he was I really don't see how itvwaa any bearing on how good he is at racing F1 cars.
Quite. Anybody wish to disagree that Alain Prost is not one of the best drivers to have graced F1?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, Button was soundly beaten by Alonso at McLaren.

And I dare to say, if Vettel had Alonso or Hamilton as a teammate in all those years, his records would look very different as well. ;-)
Probably a non-wdc by now.

Alonso did not beat Button in 2015.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:17 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Same old same old.. Alonso this Alonso that but he is winning nothing (yet), only teammates wars.

I think the biggest fallacy is to confuse teammates performances with "ultimate" performance.
I have zero doubt if McLaren was a TOP car, Vandoorne would perform much much better but it is fair to say that Vandoorne biggest weakness now is that he is BLAND, QUIET, not confident at all and he is incapable to look after his own interest(Remember what Hamilton did in Monaco in 2007?). Had Hamilton been like Stoffel when he started, I am not sure he would be the successful driver he is today.


I have had the impression for many years now that there is something with Alonso's style that is completely foreign to his teammates and tend to make them look worse than they really are. It is like constraining your teammate to play football with his left foot(Alonso's foot) when you know that normally people tend to use their right foot.

Another example of teammate performance fallacy is Hamilton and his teammates who often "seem" to match him in term of points but not in terms of ultimate performance.
A case in point is Hamilton's qualifying record over the years where you can see that there is a gap between his Poles(vs teammates) and simply beating them in qualifying.
When there is a pole at sight, more than often than not he will take it. It happened with Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas, with the only exception of Rosberg.

2010 and 2012 WDC were there for Alonso to take(unlike Hamilton and Vettel who had their teammates free to race them, Alonso had the whole team behind him), and what went missing are the ultimate performances(mostly in qualifying and in the rain) I just talked about. Don't bring his teammates into the equation because taking teammate performance as an absolute barometer is the biggest fallacy of F1 more so if they drive for Ferrari where they will happily break your gearbox to give a cleaner starting grid slot to your "captain".

Hamilton will not collect 5th places, it is not in his nature and it is not something he has done many times to be honest, but for ultimate performance (1st places) the only guy who matches him is Vettel.

Right now, I think Alonso looks better than he really and he will gain nothing and can only lose in terms of "reputation" battling Hamilton and Vettel at the front.


Alonso's reputation went through the roof during 2010-2014 which is exactly when he was fighting Vettel/Hamilton and was in a Ferrari.

Kind of contradicts your whole post. ;)

It's still a fact that if your teammate is not allowed to beat you it makes things so much easier.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


This is what I can't get past and why I don't put as much weight into the stats in these type of sports as others do but it's subjective of course, people value different things but this is along the lines of what was first put to me in a similar conversation.

You can literally not need to change a single turn of Alonso's wheel, change a tenth of performance he showed across his career or anything like that and he'd have 2-3 more titles with a failure here or there or a DQ in 07 for Kīmi's illegal floor in Melbourne for example.

No extra brilliance from Alonso
No extra poor performance from his rivals
No better cars
No better team atmosphere

Nowt.

So it's hard to get excited about the pure stats when in a Sport like this they can be so heavily altered without changing a single driving input from Alonso himself. You get exited about the performances that are shown, surely? And those are there whether it's 2 or 4/5.

This isn't an Alonso only thing, you can add or takeway titles to lots of drivers without changing the level of performance they have shown in any way, you can even make Alonso have no titles, never mind the 2 he did get.

The stats are fluff, nice for the drivers themselves and fans of course to celebrate, it's the goal after all, but it's just not much use as a performance indicator when you can turn the stats on their head without changing any performance shown whatsoever from that driver in question.


A driver can have luck with a WDC car, but success needs to be nurtured and it is not done only through driving or engineering talent.

When Ferrari announced Vettel as their new driver, I said for Alonso that it was the beginning of the end for him and for Vettel, that there is no way he will have worse stats(wins/poles) than Alonso during his Ferrari years.

You can call it luck if you want, but I don't think it is. With Vettel all you hear is Ferrari, and with Alonso, all you hear is Alonso and how life is cruel.

Indeed the team is there to serve Alonso.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:32 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Same old same old.. Alonso this Alonso that but he is winning nothing (yet), only teammates wars.

I think the biggest fallacy is to confuse teammates performances with "ultimate" performance.
I have zero doubt if McLaren was a TOP car, Vandoorne would perform much much better but it is fair to say that Vandoorne biggest weakness now is that he is BLAND, QUIET, not confident at all and he is incapable to look after his own interest(Remember what Hamilton did in Monaco in 2007?). Had Hamilton been like Stoffel when he started, I am not sure he would be the successful driver he is today.


I have had the impression for many years now that there is something with Alonso's style that is completely foreign to his teammates and tend to make them look worse than they really are. It is like constraining your teammate to play football with his left foot(Alonso's foot) when you know that normally people tend to use their right foot.

Another example of teammate performance fallacy is Hamilton and his teammates who often "seem" to match him in term of points but not in terms of ultimate performance.
A case in point is Hamilton's qualifying record over the years where you can see that there is a gap between his Poles(vs teammates) and simply beating them in qualifying.
When there is a pole at sight, more than often than not he will take it. It happened with Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas, with the only exception of Rosberg.

2010 and 2012 WDC were there for Alonso to take(unlike Hamilton and Vettel who had their teammates free to race them, Alonso had the whole team behind him), and what went missing are the ultimate performances(mostly in qualifying and in the rain) I just talked about. Don't bring his teammates into the equation because taking teammate performance as an absolute barometer is the biggest fallacy of F1 more so if they drive for Ferrari where they will happily break your gearbox to give a cleaner starting grid slot to your "captain".

Hamilton will not collect 5th places, it is not in his nature and it is not something he has done many times to be honest, but for ultimate performance (1st places) the only guy who matches him is Vettel.

Right now, I think Alonso looks better than he really and he will gain nothing and can only lose in terms of "reputation" battling Hamilton and Vettel at the front.


Alonso's reputation went through the roof during 2010-2014 which is exactly when he was fighting Vettel/Hamilton and was in a Ferrari.

Kind of contradicts your whole post. ;)


Nope.
His reputation went through the roof because of his teammates, aided by the fact that he was driving for Ferrari, a team ready to handicap their #2 driver just to make their #1 driver happy.
We have seen it with Rubens, Massa and now Raikkonen. He was surely fighting Vettel/Hamilton but remember he had the entire team behind him unlike Lewis and Vettel(in 2010).

To be honest, Ferrari created their own monster in Alonso and people tend to make his cars look worse just to elevate him. Who(Mercedes/RedBull) in their right mind would want a driver like this who will take all the credit when he will win?


Seems like you're just having a general rant about why you don't like Alonso. :)

To address your points:
- Massa and Alonso were given equal status until it was clear that only Alonso had a chance at the championship. No different to Red Bull or Mclaren.
- Alonso gave full credit to his team when they deserved it. Look at Monza 2010 for example where he gave plaudits to his team for the strategy which allowed him to pass Button.

Massa was given equal status until Hockenheim 2010.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anyone seriously think if Vettel's engine had blown up on the last lap at Abu Dhabi in 2010 and the last lap at Interlagos in 2012 he would be a worse driver because he only had 2 titles? Does anyone think it would make Alonso a better driver because he would have 4? Even though both drivers would have done nothing different in terms of performance.


This is what I can't get past and why I don't put as much weight into the stats in these type of sports as others do but it's subjective of course, people value different things but this is along the lines of what was first put to me in a similar conversation.

You can literally not need to change a single turn of Alonso's wheel, change a tenth of performance he showed across his career or anything like that and he'd have 2-3 more titles with a failure here or there or a DQ in 07 for Kīmi's illegal floor in Melbourne for example.

No extra brilliance from Alonso
No extra poor performance from his rivals
No better cars
No better team atmosphere

Nowt.

So it's hard to get excited about the pure stats when in a Sport like this they can be so heavily altered without changing a single driving input from Alonso himself. You get exited about the performances that are shown, surely? And those are there whether it's 2 or 4/5.

This isn't an Alonso only thing, you can add or takeway titles to lots of drivers without changing the level of performance they have shown in any way, you can even make Alonso have no titles, never mind the 2 he did get.

The stats are fluff, nice for the drivers themselves and fans of course to celebrate, it's the goal after all, but it's just not much use as a performance indicator when you can turn the stats on their head without changing any performance shown whatsoever from that driver in question.


A driver can have luck with a WDC car, but success needs to be nurtured and it is not done only through driving or engineering talent.

When Ferrari announced Vettel as their new driver, I said for Alonso that it was the beginning of the end for him and for Vettel, that there is no way he will have worse stats(wins/poles) than Alonso during his Ferrari years.

You can call it luck if you want, but I don't think it is. With Vettel all you hear is Ferrari, and with Alonso, all you hear is Alonso and how life is cruel.


I wouldn't call it luck exactly but just better circumstances. One quick thing is Maranello itsellf.

Alonso's time had wind tunnel issues and infrastructure deficiencies to it's main rivals and a boss still in the mindset they had everything they need.

Sergio came in and brought class leading AVL test benches, hundreds of millions spent on new infrastructure and buildimgs housing state of the art sims and full chassis dyno's to the point it's as good as anything RB or Mercedes have. That's a huge advantage in the ability to produce better cars that Alonso didn't have and has been evidenced in their last few cars.

You could argue he should've done more to get Luca to open the wallet and get their facilities to their rivals standards but without knowing what he did in the first place it's a bit of an empty criticism.

It's just the way it falls and seemingly it falls badly for Alonso in multiple ways. Another quick one is the state of the PU Alonso left. He left at the end of summer and at that point the Ferrari PU was consensus worse because it had the same deficiencies as Renault but with a worse ERS system. And we had a token system locking that design in for the most part. Pretty hopeless looking situation.

Within 4 months of his leaving Allison found the loophole that killed the token system,Mahle brought them TJI which turned around their ICE, Cornebois brought the oil burn knowledge from Mercedes and Renault somehow managed to go backwards.

You just can't account for that level of things falling against you and for someone else and it's got nothing to do with the kumbaya rubbish we've spoke of before. Seb didn't suddenly turn into an expletive during the winter 2013/14, Mercedes simply brought things RB-Renault didn't.

Luck or just circumstances, call it what you want but Alonso hasn't had it since his first Renault stint when he had the engineers coming up with the tricks and a bespoke fuel and tyre supplier giving him priority. And guess what happened, he won. Give him it again and he'll do the same I'm sure.


Again, you are talking about engineering in isolation.
The problem with Alonso is that he wants to be a driver and the team manager.
I have heard disrespectulf radio communications between Alonso and his Ferrari engineers, something Vettel will not do. Sebastian is JUST a driver.

Alonso had a shot(albeit small) to drive for a Top team again and what was his genius move? He decided to skip Monaco GP for the Indy 500 to show he is bigger than Hamilton/Vettel/F1 alienating people(Lauda/Wolff/Horner/Ecclestone/F1 drivers) in the process. We know drivers are egomaniac but he is a special one and I strongly believe his lack of success can not be attributed to bad luck.

Some drivers are better fit to certain teams than others and engineers/rule makers/Big wigs will go the extra mile just to make them fast again.

Yeah I saw Indy500 as an ego trip as well and his putting down of F1 can't have gone down well in the F1 paddock, all because he is not winning.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, Button was soundly beaten by Alonso at McLaren.

And I dare to say, if Vettel had Alonso or Hamilton as a teammate in all those years, his records would look very different as well. ;-)
Probably a non-wdc by now.

Alonso did not beat Button in 2015.


But in total of them being teammates.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Same old same old.. Alonso this Alonso that but he is winning nothing (yet), only teammates wars.

I think the biggest fallacy is to confuse teammates performances with "ultimate" performance.
I have zero doubt if McLaren was a TOP car, Vandoorne would perform much much better but it is fair to say that Vandoorne biggest weakness now is that he is BLAND, QUIET, not confident at all and he is incapable to look after his own interest(Remember what Hamilton did in Monaco in 2007?). Had Hamilton been like Stoffel when he started, I am not sure he would be the successful driver he is today.


I have had the impression for many years now that there is something with Alonso's style that is completely foreign to his teammates and tend to make them look worse than they really are. It is like constraining your teammate to play football with his left foot(Alonso's foot) when you know that normally people tend to use their right foot.

Another example of teammate performance fallacy is Hamilton and his teammates who often "seem" to match him in term of points but not in terms of ultimate performance.
A case in point is Hamilton's qualifying record over the years where you can see that there is a gap between his Poles(vs teammates) and simply beating them in qualifying.
When there is a pole at sight, more than often than not he will take it. It happened with Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas, with the only exception of Rosberg.

2010 and 2012 WDC were there for Alonso to take(unlike Hamilton and Vettel who had their teammates free to race them, Alonso had the whole team behind him), and what went missing are the ultimate performances(mostly in qualifying and in the rain) I just talked about. Don't bring his teammates into the equation because taking teammate performance as an absolute barometer is the biggest fallacy of F1 more so if they drive for Ferrari where they will happily break your gearbox to give a cleaner starting grid slot to your "captain".

Hamilton will not collect 5th places, it is not in his nature and it is not something he has done many times to be honest, but for ultimate performance (1st places) the only guy who matches him is Vettel.

Right now, I think Alonso looks better than he really and he will gain nothing and can only lose in terms of "reputation" battling Hamilton and Vettel at the front.


Alonso's reputation went through the roof during 2010-2014 which is exactly when he was fighting Vettel/Hamilton and was in a Ferrari.

Kind of contradicts your whole post. ;)


Nope.
His reputation went through the roof because of his teammates, aided by the fact that he was driving for Ferrari, a team ready to handicap their #2 driver just to make their #1 driver happy.
We have seen it with Rubens, Massa and now Raikkonen. He was surely fighting Vettel/Hamilton but remember he had the entire team behind him unlike Lewis and Vettel(in 2010).

To be honest, Ferrari created their own monster in Alonso and people tend to make his cars look worse just to elevate him. Who(Mercedes/RedBull) in their right mind would want a driver like this who will take all the credit when he will win?


Seems like you're just having a general rant about why you don't like Alonso. :)

To address your points:
- Massa and Alonso were given equal status until it was clear that only Alonso had a chance at the championship. No different to Red Bull or Mclaren.
- Alonso gave full credit to his team when they deserved it. Look at Monza 2010 for example where he gave plaudits to his team for the strategy which allowed him to pass Button.

Massa was given equal status until Hockenheim 2010.


... which is significantly longer than Räikkönen this year. ;)

And Massa got a new chance every season.

Reb Bull were not the paragon of equal treatment either in those years.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:58 pm 
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Alonso's "putdown" of F1 did, in my opinion, help F1, particularly in North America. He brought attention and honor to F1 with both his demeanor and his excellent performance. I don't see it as an insult to F1, though I can see how some dedicated F1 fans could see it that way. I see it as one of the greatest race car drivers in the world wanting to experience one of the greatest races in the world, being accommodated by his F1 team which was struggling mightily with cars that seldom could finish a race. Not only did McLaren keep a frustrated tier 1 level driver in the fold, they also increased their brand in the US by his driving a McLaren orange, McLaren sponsored and Honda powered to the front of the pack before millions of spectators and viewers. I'd call it a win/win for Alonso, McLaren, the Indy 500, and F1.

I seriously doubt it hurt Alonso's chances with other F1 teams in any way.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Added point...

I think that Alonso competing at LeMans could also be a good thing for F1... especially if he does well. Several Indy car and Nascar drivers compete in other series to their honor, though, I admit usually not missing a scheduled race in their series, though I belie v e that it has happened.

Personally, I have greater respect for drivers who excel in multiple disciplines than those who are one type only. Alonso earned even more respect as a driver because of his Indy effort in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:29 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, Button was soundly beaten by Alonso at McLaren.

And I dare to say, if Vettel had Alonso or Hamilton as a teammate in all those years, his records would look very different as well. ;-)
Probably a non-wdc by now.

Alonso did not beat Button in 2015.


But in total of them being teammates.

We don't have 2 year championships and in 2016 it was respectable until Button announced his retirement and after that his driving seemed to do downhill to the point he was relieved that he never had to sit in a F1 car again, well that's what he thought at the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:31 pm 
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What is this "putdown" from Alonso? What did he do?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:37 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Alonso's reputation went through the roof during 2010-2014 which is exactly when he was fighting Vettel/Hamilton and was in a Ferrari.

Kind of contradicts your whole post. ;)


Nope.
His reputation went through the roof because of his teammates, aided by the fact that he was driving for Ferrari, a team ready to handicap their #2 driver just to make their #1 driver happy.
We have seen it with Rubens, Massa and now Raikkonen. He was surely fighting Vettel/Hamilton but remember he had the entire team behind him unlike Lewis and Vettel(in 2010).

To be honest, Ferrari created their own monster in Alonso and people tend to make his cars look worse just to elevate him. Who(Mercedes/RedBull) in their right mind would want a driver like this who will take all the credit when he will win?


Seems like you're just having a general rant about why you don't like Alonso. :)

To address your points:
- Massa and Alonso were given equal status until it was clear that only Alonso had a chance at the championship. No different to Red Bull or Mclaren.
- Alonso gave full credit to his team when they deserved it. Look at Monza 2010 for example where he gave plaudits to his team for the strategy which allowed him to pass Button.

Massa was given equal status until Hockenheim 2010.


... which is significantly longer than Räikkönen this year. ;)

And Massa got a new chance every season.

Reb Bull were not the paragon of equal treatment either in those years.

Massa's chance probably lasted until the first time that Alonso beat him, the comparison with Kimi is on point, the common denominator being Ferrari.

Regarding Red Bull I do think they have a preference to who they would like to win but they do let the drivers race one another, Baku being the most recent example, they just ignore the indiscretions of the favoured driver.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Alonso's "putdown" of F1 did, in my opinion, help F1, particularly in North America. He brought attention and honor to F1 with both his demeanor and his excellent performance. I don't see it as an insult to F1, though I can see how some dedicated F1 fans could see it that way. I see it as one of the greatest race car drivers in the world wanting to experience one of the greatest races in the world, being accommodated by his F1 team which was struggling mightily with cars that seldom could finish a race. Not only did McLaren keep a frustrated tier 1 level driver in the fold, they also increased their brand in the US by his driving a McLaren orange, McLaren sponsored and Honda powered to the front of the pack before millions of spectators and viewers. I'd call it a win/win for Alonso, McLaren, the Indy 500, and F1.

I seriously doubt it hurt Alonso's chances with other F1 teams in any way.

The reference is what Alonso said about F1, regarding Alonso's chances being hurt in F1 I guess you're right because the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull showed little interest in signing him before the Indy500.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
What is this "putdown" from Alonso? What did he do?

I can't remember exactly, he put down the F1 drivers for one.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
What is this "putdown" from Alonso? What did he do?

I can't remember exactly, he put down the F1 drivers for one.

Ok, I see. Thanks, I couldn't remember either.

I agree with Blake in general, however I also think that it is poor taste to spit on the hand that fed you and made you famous. So if he indeed put down F1 in general, then it is poor from a WDC that represents the sport to another continent, a different category and a different market... Just poor


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Massa's chance probably lasted until the first time that Alonso beat him, the comparison with Kimi is on point, the common denominator being Ferrari.

Regarding Red Bull I do think they have a preference to who they would like to win but they do let the drivers race one another, Baku being the most recent example, they just ignore the indiscretions of the favoured driver.


So what do you think of Alonso and Massa racing each other at Spa 2011 for example? Massa defended very hard against Alonso in that race.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Same old same old.. Alonso this Alonso that but he is winning nothing (yet), only teammates wars.

I think the biggest fallacy is to confuse teammates performances with "ultimate" performance.
I have zero doubt if McLaren was a TOP car, Vandoorne would perform much much better but it is fair to say that Vandoorne biggest weakness now is that he is BLAND, QUIET, not confident at all and he is incapable to look after his own interest(Remember what Hamilton did in Monaco in 2007?). Had Hamilton been like Stoffel when he started, I am not sure he would be the successful driver he is today.


I have had the impression for many years now that there is something with Alonso's style that is completely foreign to his teammates and tend to make them look worse than they really are. It is like constraining your teammate to play football with his left foot(Alonso's foot) when you know that normally people tend to use their right foot.

Another example of teammate performance fallacy is Hamilton and his teammates who often "seem" to match him in term of points but not in terms of ultimate performance.
A case in point is Hamilton's qualifying record over the years where you can see that there is a gap between his Poles(vs teammates) and simply beating them in qualifying.
When there is a pole at sight, more than often than not he will take it. It happened with Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas, with the only exception of Rosberg.

2010 and 2012 WDC were there for Alonso to take(unlike Hamilton and Vettel who had their teammates free to race them, Alonso had the whole team behind him), and what went missing are the ultimate performances(mostly in qualifying and in the rain) I just talked about. Don't bring his teammates into the equation because taking teammate performance as an absolute barometer is the biggest fallacy of F1 more so if they drive for Ferrari where they will happily break your gearbox to give a cleaner starting grid slot to your "captain".

Hamilton will not collect 5th places, it is not in his nature and it is not something he has done many times to be honest, but for ultimate performance (1st places) the only guy who matches him is Vettel.

Right now, I think Alonso looks better than he really and he will gain nothing and can only lose in terms of "reputation" battling Hamilton and Vettel at the front.


Alonso's reputation went through the roof during 2010-2014 which is exactly when he was fighting Vettel/Hamilton and was in a Ferrari.

Kind of contradicts your whole post. ;)


Nope.
His reputation went through the roof because of his teammates, aided by the fact that he was driving for Ferrari, a team ready to handicap their #2 driver just to make their #1 driver happy.
We have seen it with Rubens, Massa and now Raikkonen. He was surely fighting Vettel/Hamilton but remember he had the entire team behind him unlike Lewis and Vettel(in 2010).

To be honest, Ferrari created their own monster in Alonso and people tend to make his cars look worse just to elevate him. Who(Mercedes/RedBull) in their right mind would want a driver like this who will take all the credit when he will win?


Seems like you're just having a general rant about why you don't like Alonso. :)

To address your points:
- Massa and Alonso were given equal status until it was clear that only Alonso had a chance at the championship. No different to Red Bull or Mclaren.
- Alonso gave full credit to his team when they deserved it. Look at Monza 2010 for example where he gave plaudits to his team for the strategy which allowed him to pass Button.

Massa was given equal status until Hockenheim 2010.


Right. And at that point Massa was some 75 points behind the WDC leader and 8th in the championship. He was out of the running, while Alonso still had a chance, albeit and slim one.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:05 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The bigwigs at Ferrari had enough of him. He was not wanted anymore and if it was not Vettel, it would have been Hamilton(Marchionne loves Lewis).


Wrong.

Allison was trying his best to convince Alonso to stay, but the latter refused to believe the promises.


Quote:
So in my book he was "fired". Alonso and Briatore are so bitter and wish ill to Ferrari at any occasion for a reason.


Wrong again.

We're not really interested on how it happened in your book, given the lack of impartiality that you've shown already. The fact is that Alonso chose to leave.

Alonso wished Ferrari well at the start of 2017 and hoped that they could challenge for the title.



Allison himself was shown the door in 2015, and saying Alonso wished Ferrari well is a big joke.


Allison leaving Ferrari 2 years later has no relevance whatsover, and does not discount or disprove what he said.

Alonso wished Ferrari well. Where's the joke?

Anyway, it's clear nothing will change your mind even when hard evidence is presented to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:09 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The bigwigs at Ferrari had enough of him. He was not wanted anymore and if it was not Vettel, it would have been Hamilton(Marchionne loves Lewis).


Wrong.

Allison was trying his best to convince Alonso to stay, but the latter refused to believe the promises.


Quote:
So in my book he was "fired". Alonso and Briatore are so bitter and wish ill to Ferrari at any occasion for a reason.


Wrong again.

We're not really interested on how it happened in your book, given the lack of impartiality that you've shown already. The fact is that Alonso chose to leave.

Alonso wished Ferrari well at the start of 2017 and hoped that they could challenge for the title.



Allison himself was shown the door in 2015, and saying Alonso wished Ferrari well is a big joke.


Allison leaving Ferrari 2 years later has no relevance whatsover, and does not discount or disprove what he said.

Alonso wished Ferrari well. Where's the joke?

Anyway, it's clear nothing will change your mind even when hard evidence is presented to you.


I have not disputed what he said, I said it was not the teams view simple, it was a personal view as Allison's position in the team was not strong and he was later let go himself.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The bigwigs at Ferrari had enough of him. He was not wanted anymore and if it was not Vettel, it would have been Hamilton(Marchionne loves Lewis).


Wrong.

Allison was trying his best to convince Alonso to stay, but the latter refused to believe the promises.


Quote:
So in my book he was "fired". Alonso and Briatore are so bitter and wish ill to Ferrari at any occasion for a reason.


Wrong again.

We're not really interested on how it happened in your book, given the lack of impartiality that you've shown already. The fact is that Alonso chose to leave.

Alonso wished Ferrari well at the start of 2017 and hoped that they could challenge for the title.



Allison himself was shown the door in 2015, and saying Alonso wished Ferrari well is a big joke.


Allison leaving Ferrari 2 years later has no relevance whatsover, and does not discount or disprove what he said.

Alonso wished Ferrari well. Where's the joke?

Anyway, it's clear nothing will change your mind even when hard evidence is presented to you.


I have not disputed what he said, I said it was not the teams view simple, it was a personal view as Allison's position in the team was not strong and he was later let go himself.


Allison was the technical director of the team. Only the team manager and chairman were above him in the hierachy.

We are not talking about a personal view, we are talking about one of the most senior people in the team trying to convince Alonso to stay at that team.

What happened in 2016 when Allison left has no relevance in this discussion and doesn't indicate a weakness of Allison's position during the time frame we are discussing (2014).


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:58 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
I have not disputed what he said, I said it was not the teams view simple, it was a personal view as Allison's position in the team was not strong and he was later let go himself.

Maybe you aren't disputing what he said, but perhaps you should stand back and take another look at it. Why would Allison - even if it was against the wishes of the Ferrari hierarchy, which I'll leave open as it's not relevant - try to convince Alonso to stay if he had been fired? Alonso wouldn't have had any choice in the matter, and there'd be no point convincing him of anything. Doesn't that seem odd to you?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:00 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:


Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?

The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.

Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.


From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"

"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."

Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.

I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.


He had two years left to run on his deal, it had to be terminated as has been pointed out. That would be a true description if it was his choice.

Arrivabene was a part of the team. Marko's comments back up the thought at the time that Alonso to McLaren was all but a done deal. Allison was the TD and trying to convince Alonso to stay if he's just been fired doesn't make a lot of sense now does it?

As far as I can see it's total fantasy based on ignoring literally everyone involved's own comments.

Watch the Ferrari documentary about his leaving. He's wished them well several times and backed Binotto to be a big success when most in the Italian press were having a meltdown about Allison leaving, the poor form in the back end of 2016 and putting an engine guy in charge. Alonso could've joined in and stuck the boot in but he praised him and he was right about him turning it around.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:24 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:


Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?

The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.

Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.


From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"

"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."

Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.

I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.


Obviously the contract needed to be terminated. Doesn't mean he was fired though. If he was fired where is the news of his payout? If you want to keep on the "Alonso was fired" line then I would suggest you'd find some evidence or at least a respected figure who agrees with you.

And you've never seen what? Alonso have a good relationship with a previous team? Two of his four former teams have re-hired him!


He was not "fired" out of respect but it was CLEAR Ferrari(Marchionne, FCA) have decided NOT to renew his contract and wanted to begin a new course.
Emilio Botin, Santander Patron sadly passed away.
And the guys who belong to the Alonso era were removed/left/fired(Montezemolo, Domenicali, Pat Fry, de la Rosa).

NO effort was made to retain Alonso unlike Hamilton when he decided he had enough of McLaren.
When he appeared clear that Hamilton had talk with Mercedes, not only Ron Dennis called Dr. Zetsche to cry and to beg him to turn down Lewis but also Whitmarsh offered more money to Lewis as an incentive to stay.
Nothing of the sort was made for Alonso and many Ferrari people(Mario Forghieri included) were happy to see him "leave".


Slightly different scenarios as Lewis was out of contract and Alonso had two years still to go so Ferrari didn't have to act but it was widely reported they were trying to get him to extend to the end 2019 as a sign of renewed commitment for the new regime and he refused to sign it. That's what the whole sit down with Mattiaci that went nuclear was about. He wanted his gentleman's agreement with Luca to be honoured and Marco wanted the extension as a sign of renewed commitment from Alonso.

Numerous sources reported on the 3yr contract extension offer from Ferrari. http://www.rallystar.net/alonso-wants-5 ... h-ferrari/

Now you could argue Alonso was bluffing and Mattiaci called it, Mark Hughes had an article that talked about it in similar terms iirc and that Marco acting so quickly to get Seb forced Alonso's hand but the same facts are in that story. Ferrari wanting to extend Alonso and Alonso asking for his gentleman's agreement to be honoured so he could leave and McLaren being the likely destination if he did. And they don't contradict the Arrivabene,Marko and Allison comments either so it paints a believable enough scenario.

There's just nothing that suggests Ferrari never wanted him to stay though or that Alonso was fired with no choice in the matter, not one respectable source paints it as such.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:35 am 
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Pullrod wrote:

The bigwigs at Ferrari had enough of him. He was not wanted anymore and if it was not Vettel, it would have been Hamilton(Marchionne loves Lewis).
So in my book he was "fired". Alonso and Briatore are so bitter and wish ill to Ferrari at any occasion for a reason.


http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one ... ri-f1-2017
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alon ... ri-805273/
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns34520.html

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:53 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, Button was soundly beaten by Alonso at McLaren.

And I dare to say, if Vettel had Alonso or Hamilton as a teammate in all those years, his records would look very different as well. ;-)
Probably a non-wdc by now.

Alonso did not beat Button in 2015.


But in total of them being teammates.

We don't have 2 year championships and in 2016 it was respectable until Button announced his retirement and after that his driving seemed to do downhill to the point he was relieved that he never had to sit in a F1 car again, well that's what he thought at the time.


Still not true. The car's reliability improved dramatically, they had no issues in the last half of the second season so we stopped having to throw out results when Alonso was usually ahead when trouble hit.

I showed you before in another thread the ratio is almost exactly the same if you split the 2 seasons into quarters with the last quarter being the reliability/retirement one and "call" the result in the other three at the point trouble hit they come out similarly. Button also had his most dominant display against Alonso in that last quarter (Italy) so didn't look like he had one foot out the door.

Just another excuse to downplay Alonso's performance against a team mate.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:54 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
What is this "putdown" from Alonso? What did he do?

I can't remember exactly, he put down the F1 drivers for one.


Source?

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:10 am 
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It seems like certain posters live in fantasy land where they believe myths such as:

Alonso was fired by Ferrari
Alonso always wishes ill on Ferrari
Alonso burnt his bridges at Ferrari
Ferrari made no effort to keep Alonso

All have been disproven by the evidence kindly provided by Lotus49.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:11 am 
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Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
[quote="Lotus49]
Why offer him a contract extension and why's James Allison claiming he tried to change his mind?

The entire press pack chased him around for a year asking if he regretted leaving and this myth of a firing still persists. It's bizarre. There's zero evidence of it and buckets of it that he simply lost faith and decided to gamble on McHonda.

Until shown something otherwise I'm more than happy to go with the story backed up by Alonso,Arrivabene,Allison,Marko and the entire paddock press rubbing his nose in it since.[/quote]

From SkyF1 note the word "terminated"

"Alonso's Ferrari deal was supposed to run until the end of 2016 but with relations between the 33-year-old and the team's new management hierarchy headed by Marco Mattiacci breaking down, Sky F1 understands that the contract was terminated by mutual consent on Thursday night."

Arrivabene wasn't part of the team when it happened and was appointed Nov '14. How will Marko know what happened at Ferrari, Allison's own was a personal opinion and not a Ferrari position.
And we have known teams rep to be economical with truth, when you leave a team amicably you will not take a dig at them which Alonso does at every opportunity, also we see Vettel going to the Redbull garage and everyone is happy and they joke around.

I have never seen Alonso do or maybe just not been very observant.[/quote]

Obviously the contract needed to be terminated. Doesn't mean he was fired though. If he was fired where is the news of his payout? If you want to keep on the "Alonso was fired" line then I would suggest you'd find some evidence or at least a respected figure who agrees with you.

And you've never seen what? Alonso have a good relationship with a previous team? Two of his four former teams have re-hired him![/quote]
Well, while I agree with you 100% about the contract situation, I don't think it's radical to talk about Alonso's destructive relationships. He did famously complain about how Renault were trying to sabotage him, or words to that effect, and I don't think anyone can pretend that he left McLaren on good terms back in 2007. I think it's fairly true to say he's at least partially burned bridges at Ferrari, too.

Alonso's a terrific driver, to my mind unquestionably the best driver out there. But he's not exactly the poster boy for good relations[/quote]

How did he burn bridges at Ferrari?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
my understanding is that him leaving early was not a happy parting. Happy to be proven wrong on that but I've always understood that the relationship was strained[/quote]


That doesn't really answer my question though.

Alonso was not happy because he was not getting a competitive car, but how does this mean that he burnt his bridges?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:45 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Baku 2018
Alonso drags a non-top 10 car to P6 despite massive first lap damage outside his fault, beating his teammate despite being several places behindand beating several quicker cars on the way.
Vettel scores P4 in the best car of the field, losing out to his teammate (who was several places behind him) and to a driver in an inferior car, all due to his own driving mistake.

Vettel throws away four (!) possible wins in the last, I don't know, 12-15 races.

We have (imperfect) evidence that Ricciardo is better than Vettel, we have no evidence whatsoever that it may be the other way around.

There is really no good reason to believe that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton, Alonso, and - potential-wise - Verstappen. But he is not far behind, for sure.


Vettel made one big mistake for sure but otherwise he was great all weekend. Alonso teammates barely stand a chance against him. Alonso owns the team. Mclaren and Alonso have consistently picked up points due to other having bad races rather than their performance. Not considering even RBR drivers and Bottas. Ocon, Grosjean, Hulk. Kevin Mag also had a bad race all these were going to finish ahead of him.


Perhaps Alonso consistently picks up points by not having bad races more than anything else. It's too much of a common thread throughout his career for it to just be luck. he's just got a knack of picking his way through a race. He's currently 6th in the WDC with probably the 6th best car.


:thumbup:

Same thing with Alonso's teammates. They get all sorts of praise before being teamed with Alonso, then when he is beating them all kind of excuses are used, and eventually they are declared to never have been good in the first place. Fisichella, Massa, Räikkönen, Button, wunderkind Vandoorne ...

:lol: :lol:


Why did Alonso had to leave MM that to to a rookie in 2007. I guess first time in F1 he was not allowed to run the team :lol:

Anyways what I wanted to emphasis that result does not necessarily mean great performance. Even not considering 2 RBR and Bottas there were still 3 cars Ocon, Hulk, Grosjean who should have been ahead of him. Just look at all races this year, performance not points. Alonso Mclaren are pretty slow

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:57 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
my understanding is that him leaving early was not a happy parting. Happy to be proven wrong on that but I've always understood that the relationship was strained


That doesn't really answer my question though.

Alonso was not happy because he was not getting a competitive car, but how does this mean that he burnt his bridges?

I thought it did? If the relationship was strained, then it's not likely they'd want him back

The story going around at the time was that there were quite heated discussions when Ferrari wouldn't honour the verbal agreement he had with LdM and it got quite personal. Whether that's enough to burn bridges, I don't know, but that's why I put "partially."


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I put a lot of weight on success in any field no one achieves success by being lucky, where preparation meets opportunity people see it as luck.

That's total BS. Vast numbers of people achieve success by being lucky - maybe even most people. The myth that success is always the product of hard work is a dangerous tool used to attack people who are unsuccessful for any reason.

If Alonso had switched to McLaren and the Honda engine really was as dominant as Ron Dennis made it sound, would that mean that it was suddenly all down to Alonso's preparation? Or would he have got lucky, seeing as how he had no way of knowing what the engine would be like (clearly)?


:thumbup:

Many people underestimate how much of a differentiator luck often is; and particularly so in a highly technology-depending sport like F1.



:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I will just jump in to offer this awesome quote, entirely F1 unrelated:

The older one gets the more convinced one becomes that his Majesty King Chance does three-quarters of the business of this miserable universe.

Frederick II of Prussia (1712-1786)


Also in statistics we have the so-called survivorship bias or survival bias, which is, to paraphrase Wikipedia, the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that made it past some selection process and overlooking those that did not, typically because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways. It is a form of selection bias.

Survivorship bias can lead to overly optimistic beliefs because failures are ignored, such as when companies that no longer exist are excluded from analyses of financial performance. It can also lead to the false belief that the successes in a group have some special property, rather than just coincidence (correlation proves causality).

In F1 we tend to concentrate on the successful drivers and assume that they are on top of the game because of their hard work, as if the guys at the back of the grid are slackers. But deep down inside most of us will agree that the machine is more important than the driver, even if our human nature makes us to identify, support or dislike the human factor.

Chance and luck play a far greater role in our lives than we care to admit.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Posts: 44
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
What is this "putdown" from Alonso? What did he do?

I can't remember exactly, he put down the F1 drivers for one.


Can't remember, yet you are up in arms??


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