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Did Renault not make any winter gains?

Last year Honda said they were close to Renault whilst McLaren said they had a top car, I would expect their results to be so much better then a midfield team like STR with inferior drivers.

For the last 3 years Honda got 100% of the blame, this year the blame is being put on the installation of the Renault engine, McLaren themselves have realised that they have a problem but this is just being put forward as a simple management re-organisation.

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I would say the Honda engine that finished last season was decent and comparable to the engine that started this season that being still the worse engine, however what was markedly different was the much higher top speed of the STR car, how often did McLaren use the how much time they were losing on the straights to deride the Honda engine when hindsight shows some blame was with the McLaren car itself which apparently was such a good car because of it's speed in the corners.

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Specifically I said driver politics, that being between teammates, It's one thing being up against a tier 2 driver like Massa, another up against a tier 1 driver, this is what Rosberg referred to when he said that the top teams don't want Alonso because of his politics.

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I know you love to conflate issues and jump to conclusions and you summary here certainly lives up to that.

It's been put forward that the article you provided as "proof" of issues in the technical department was anything but, since the only McLaren quote referred to a complete internal restructure, not a specific targeting of the technical department. It's also been put forward that it's possible a reason for Goss leaving was the poor adaptation for the Renault engine. Please note that possible is not the same as cold hard fact. It's also been acknowledged that McLaren didn't do a good job in integrating the Renault PU.

Against that, it's been put forward that McLaren had to make significant changes to their 2017 car in order to accommodate the Renault PU, which included floor, bargeboards, wings and suspension, as well as necessitating a complete repackaging of various internals. So the integration job clearly had major impact upon the car and was not easy and, while it may have been handled poorly, this does not automatically mean the previous car was bad.

Somehow, you've managed to turn all of the above into "McLaren themselves have realised that they have a problem but this is just being put forward as a simple management re-organization." Priceless.

What does Renault gains have to do with it? You were trying to compare STR's point haul this year with McLaren's last year,right? Nothing to do with Renault.

You might expect someone to take reliability into account as well. How were McLaren going to score points when the engine can't reach the flag? Like I said when Honda got on top of reliability and added the extra harvest McLaren scored 19pts in the last 7 races. Give them the winter gains and this years Honda in those races and they may well have scored more.

It's about as useless a comparison you can get. And no Honda didn't get 100% of the blame, Alonso pointed out regularly they lacked to the top guys in other areas it just got ignored as usual because it's not juicy enough. They had 3 major changes to the car over the winter, you can't really blame just one of them for where they are now.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

No it's different. You talked yourself of the gains over the winter, at least 20kw in peak power and who knows what in ers development after their breakthrough with their extra harvest in Monza.

Speed traps are affected by the chassis, they aren't dyno numbers. A good winter and a car running less d/f will give you good speed trap numbers but it doesn't help your tyres or your lap time just because the speeds are higher on the trap. For the millionth time all McLaren did was set the car up for the quickest time, they refused to trim the car and lose time overall just to improve straightline speed.

And I'm still waiting on a good reason why they should've.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Right so like Button in McLaren then?. Let me guess this one doesn't count either because they weren't fighting for wins. Always an excuse.

Rosberg is parroting a well trotted out line, it's like Lewis and not being cerebral, it will follow him but it doesn't mean it's true. Those same top teams aren't trying to sign Dan who is as smiley as you like so again, sounds like more excuses for keeping their comfy line up and not rocking the boat with their lead drivers.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Who says they aren't trying to sign Dan?
I mean, Dan is still holding out on a decision - I'm not sure he doesn't have alternatives.

Look, I'm not really convinced if the argument is that the Smedley quote is gospel and Rosberg's is just "parroting a well trotted out line". As a recent driver Rosberg would have a lot of insider information - people talk, and news spreads within the paddock. So I wouldn't exactly dismiss it.

I mean, we've actually seen behavior from him that could spook other teams. Like saying your team doesn't want you to win the title, that they could do more than they are doing. Or frequent outbursts in an underperforming car, mediatized heavily, to make people clearly see that he's still top but the car drags him down. Going out on a limb here and if you prove me wrong then that's that, but this is the kind of things you will not see e.g. Vettel say. The driver, his engineers and crew, and his car, it's all together and Vettel will act as one with that team, and will shoulder as much of the blame of underperforming to the point it isn't even remotely believable (defending obviously wrong strategies by the team, saying Ferrari can still be strong halfway through 2015 or 2016 or something, etc - many examples). Alonso? He will never make you forget how he is still driving his best races ever. But the engine (the one that "feels good, much slower than before - amazing!") holds him back of course, or whatever.

The end result - Abiteboul doesn't want to think about hiring Alonso, obviously afraid of negative publicity and overall negativity when they don't deliver. Top teams don't want him despite him having the reputation of just about the best on the grid - to this day. He's stuck in a corner and think about how ridiculous that is: one of the best drivers, maybe ever, isn't even considered by the best teams in the paddock. One can't help but think that this is to a large extent self-inflicted.

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Whereas you like to quote certain parts of articles, how did you miss, "undergoing a review of its technical operations as part of its programme to return the team to success".

This technical operation that was apparently one of the best in the business last season?

Then we have the articles own take on the situation from the BBC:-



Then there is your take on it all as in a simple global re-organisation which included Zak Brown, so like a natural symbiosis that was always going to happen.

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Highlighted the bit in bold for you.

I'm not disputing they are revamping their tech department. I'm pointing out that it's part of a broader sweep of changes which go right the way to the top. They are changing more than just the tech department. I mean, the entire McLaren Technology Group no longer exists, for example - how are you going to pin that one down to a focus on the tech department? Isn't that a bit extreme?

The article below gives a much more balanced and thorough breakdown of the changes:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/interviews/2018/6/sunday-conversation--zak-brown-on-the-battle-to-make-mclaren-con.html

“Jonathan [Neale] and I were kind of co-CEOs, for a lack of better term, and now with the simplification we’ve got a racing business, a motor business and a technology business. The McLaren Technology Group no longer exists, where Jonathan and I were co-heads of racing and applied technologies.

“When it was us kind of sharing roles, I think it was not very clear for the team. You know, who does the buck stop with? So now, where racing is concerned, I’m the CEO – so now, that buck stops with me!

“The applied technologies was never my thing anyways, and Jonathan’s really good in that space, he’s an awesome Chief Operating Officer. So now what you have is Mike Flewitt, CEO of automotive, me CEO of racing, a CEO to be decided of applied technologies because our other one’s gone, and Jonathan is group COO, and the four of us are all peers.

“We all report in to the executive committee, Sheikh Mohammed bin Essa Al Khalifa and Mansour Ojjeh. None of that’s actually changed. What’s changed is racing. When I was brought in, I was kind of responsible for the non-technical side, business affairs and sponsorship, commercial stuff and media, but not for how fast the car goes. Now I am."

There was also a bottleneck on the technical leadership side, with technical director Tim Goss, aero chief Peter Prodromou and production chief Matt Morris. It remains to be seen how that all shakes down since Goss left recently.

McLaren have made structural changes throughout their entire leadership, not just the tech department.

Maybe they are about to sign Dan but I just don't see it which is why I think it's an easy excuse to quieten any demand for Alonso to be signed. I think it's an easy to trot out line in this circumstance as the only two teams who have a seat even potentially available are the team he recently dumped and the other would be a seat next to the guy he shared the most explosive partnership in recent history with.

It's not shocking if they have no interest in signing him for lots of reasons yet it's the toxic line that gets trotted out by the talking heads which then breeds more talking heads as soon as it's a thing now.

I've never heard Red Bull describe it this way or hints at that's what they think about him. When asked about signing Alonso in 2014 all Marko said was they considered their young driver programme more important and Alonso too far down the road at McLaren. We've also seen him rejoin two teams he supposedly burnt his bridges with but unsurprisingly were welcoming when their own positions changed.

You also don't read much about trouble working with Alonso from the people that work with him. I just put the Smedley one in as the Toyota one apparently doesn't count but there are plenty more. I don't recall anyone who's actually worked with him calling him toxic tbh, it's always either the press or the paddock "insiders".

I don't think I've heard Seb talk like Alonso does about things like that but is that really surprising? The second half of 2016 is the worst Ferrari he had and it was still a top 3 car. He's had one year in a relatively poor car in his entire career. There shouldn't be anything close to the amount of things Alonso says from Seb as he simply hasn't had much if any reason to talk like that. Alonso has spent 8 years in cars outside the top 3. That's a whole lot of bad cars that need commenting on and that he's getting asked about constantly by the press. 8 entire seasons worth of soundbites.

It just doesn't seem abnormal to me that he'll have a lot more soundbites criticising his equipment when he's had so many more bad cars than his rivals have had.

Don't get me wrong, I can imagine he is a nightmare in a two rooster situation and he's as demanding as anyone but I don't think for a minute think that's why he's not getting signed by Merc or Ferrari this year. Those doors are shut to all top drivers until Seb or Lewis are gone or Red Bull whoop them in the WCC.

When Dan signs I'll happily accept the possibility those doors could've been open to Alonso but until then I'm more of the belief Ferrari and Mercedes are simply happy with their current line ups.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

It's true that there could be different reasons. But it's not really a thing "now", is it? I mean, there were talks of it as early as his first stint at Renault (where it got to another driver being fired), there was the fall-out with Hamilton, there was blackmailing a team boss, there was accusing his own team of not doing all they could, Ferrari was reasonably OK, then there was



But it's not just the car - it's how they come out, united or separated. Alonso has had a history of separating his performance from the team, Vettel always comes out with a united view. And I'm pretty sure if the Ferrari was hanging around at the back he would still do that. He would probably leave, in the end, like most would, but I don't think he would give the media so much food like Alonso is doing.



But think of this: I can understand that the teams do not want to put Alonso next to Lewis or Seb. Fully. However, if Alonso is still the best driver on the grid, then why, especially with the cars now closely matched, wouldn't they want to outright swap their lead driver for Alonso?

They are happy with their driver lineup, agreed, but I'm not convinced driver attitude isn't one of the factors to that.

And of course I cannot possibly prove any of this. So in the end, I see and respect your opinion and fully accept it as a possibility.

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2007 was very toxic and Alonso's all over that so no argument there. I don't think Trulli getting the elbow was down to anything other than Trullli blowing it in France and not recovering mixed with some contract disputes though but there were other instances in Renault which could qualify to be fair.

By being a thing now I just meant since last summer it's the go to line as to why he can't go to Ferrari or Mercedes while neither of them seem keen to go the Red Bull two rooster route with anyone else either so it just comes across as lip service to me now.




Maybe he wouldn't, he certainly doesn't give the press as much as Alonso in other areas as well like I mentioned earlier in the thread about the recent "deserves" comments from Alonso that I didn't like.

But it's easy to say it, one of the things that happens when the team struggles is the press goes after them including the driver and it's this that can lead to the driver hitting back. Seb had a taste of this in 2016 in the second half of the year when there were stories in Italy of engineers lamenting Alonso's departure because of Seb's performance when the car wasn't great.

To his credit I didn't see him bite back but if you start reading that for 8 years you might start to get a little defensive about things and those kind of comments might appear.





Ditto.

I think in terms of replacing rather than sitting next too, I just don't think there is enough difference in performance to go for the upheaval of bringing him in, he's older and in terms of attitude his desperation for a competitive car must be through the roof so I can see teams finding that off putting in of itself so I can see his attitude plays a role on some level at least yeah.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Vettel had a nice rant on the radio after China 2012, he's clearly not above that kind of behaviour. He's just rarely had a terrible car since 2009.

By the same token, Alonso has defended wrong strategies by the team (Canada 2012 for example).

It's easy to pick and choose certain incidents and generalise based on those.

Says Nakajima qualifies Alonso's car on pole.

The headline says Nakajima put the number 8 Toyota on pole?

Even if it didn't it would hardly be Alonso's fault.

It is funny the other day you called me a "random forumer" and now you will not believe what Rosberg is saying and insists it is a (BIG) lie.
I can tell you that Rosberg is NOT wrong and more people will talk. Just give it a few more years.
Rosberg(Hamilton and Ferrari) knows things that you don't, like what happened after Spa 2014 behind closed doors with Alonso/Briatore.

I also can not see Schumacher/Hamilton/Vettel embrace this Indy/Le mans stuff as it would be a huge disrespect to the sport(and the mechanics, engineers, etc..) that made them famous and rich and a display of a disproportionate ego.
Horner, Wolff, Bernie, Lauda, the F1 drivers were put off by this and it just reinforced the opinion(well known) that Alonso thinks he is bigger than all the guys around him. He sealed his fate here.

You are a random forumer, as am I. And I didn't say it was a lie either, just that it's a well trotted out line like some others about other drivers but it doesn't mean it's true.

Maybe it is true and if Dan's announced it would be a lot more believable. Maybe it's rubbish and Merc/Ferrari are just happy with what they've got.

Yes we know Alonso is evil, everything he does is disrespectful to someone or another etc.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Alonso probably wrote it. Or had editorial rights over the piece.

Just highlights his disrespect to journalists really and is precisely why no-one wants to sign him at the big tabloids.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Made my morning!

Alonso: "tremendous privilege to lead in Le Mans"

Well exactly what was on the line at McLaren with Button?

Rosberg is quite high profile and not just some other paddock journos who are easy to dismiss, also Rosberg is often seen working in the paddock so it's not like he's looking to take cheap shots from afar.

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Only I'm not picking and choosing to generalize, I'm trying to take everything they have said into account, but I admit I might honestly forget something here and there.

Can you refresh my mind, how did Vettel slate his team in China 2012? What did he say?

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When has Alonso needed something on the line to be competitive? There wasn't much on the line at Ferrari with Kimi but you could still tell he wanted to win. Same in the second Renault spell.

I'm aware who he is and how can you speak for Rosberg's motivation? I can dismiss it until Dan's announced and I will do.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

car was terrible, top speed was f**ing shocking.

Link me up?

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OK… Possible new scenario…

Since it's been revealed Michael Andretti and his partners might be looking to buy Force India (OMG I love the sound of Andretti F1),
I wonder if Alonso might join the team as their lead driver leaving a vacancy at McLaren. That might incite a game of musical chairs of sorts.

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HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY

Chance of that is practically zero. He is not going to start another multi-year project at this point. If he moves, it's to a team that is winning already.

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Or to a team in a series where he can win. But if he moves within F1, yeah - top teams only.

EDIT: Although I do believe Force India with a top team budget could win. But I don't know that Andretti would be forking up that sort of cash.

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"And we had absolutely no straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race. Unbelievable. People pulling away...ridiculous."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12529/ ... line-speed

Funny, he never complained about the Red Bull lacking top speed when they were winning races.

Shocking that he didn't complain about having a bad engine when he didn't have a bad engine.

that's a little bit different to what you claimed he said earlier. And he's not really slating the team, just moaning that he has no straight line speed.

that makes no sense.

Interpret it how you want Zoue.

The team is responsible for setting up his car and he's clearly slating the team for the lack of top end speed.

Vettel's had a top 2 car every season since 2009. Put him in a slower car and he'll start slating his team as we see above.

I agree, and it's exactly what you're saying.

you claimed, and I quote, Vettel said " car was terrible, top speed was f**ing shocking." The quote you just provided is a much milder version. For one it doesn't say "the car was terrible." For two, he doesn't swear. Unless you have another quote to hand then it seems you're exaggerating heavily.

He was complaining about the lack of top speed. That's hardly slating the team.

You can look up a video of the team radio if you like. It might be on dailymotion or youtube.

I tried and didn't find anything. Why don't you link it, since you're certain it exists?

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So as others have already pointed out, this is not what you said he said.
Other than that, this basically is factual, observative.



Red Bull basically always lacked top speed. They were always down in the charts, and it made life much harder when they were in the pack.



He isn't slating the team in any way, he's saying he didn't have straight-line speed. Slating the team is something like "they aren't doing all they could". This is not comparable to that.

Also: the team and driver work together on Fridays and Saturdays to set up the car together, the driver's input is important for that.

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If that isn't slating the team, neither is most of what Alonso said during the Honda years. I think there's a line between simply pointing out that the team is lacking straightline speed (which they already know) and calling it 'ridiculous'.

Saying something like 'that was hard with all the other cars being faster on the straights' might be objective. 'No straight-line speed whatsoever the whole race' is not a factual observation, because it's plainly an exaggeration. Adding 'unbelievable' and 'ridiculous' makes it pretty clearly just complaining.

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