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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The two drivers being discussed above there is a constant between them which separates them, it's what has seen one triumph and the other fail.

Vettel: rather than drive around a problem and look great and be thought of as out driving the car, would rather iron out what the problems are and get the car to the sweet spot, thus it later pays serious dividends.

This was one of MSC's great trait none of his team mates found it hard to drive the car, they could not just drive it as fast as he could.

Alonso: would rather he look like he was out driving the car and point to his team mate not doing so good instead of getting the car to a point were it is at his sweet spot and drive able.


Vettel wasn't exactly more successful in ironing out the problems in his first four years at Ferrari than Alonso was.
Vettel did throw away significantly more potential race wins than Alonso, though.


He wasn't? Really!

I suppose the Struggle with '16 to bring a better '17 is not an improvement or overlap to '18.


Like '11 for a better '12?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:10 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The two drivers being discussed above there is a constant between them which separates them, it's what has seen one triumph and the other fail.

Vettel: rather than drive around a problem and look great and be thought of as out driving the car, would rather iron out what the problems are and get the car to the sweet spot, thus it later pays serious dividends.

This was one of MSC's great trait none of his team mates found it hard to drive the car, they could not just drive it as fast as he could.

Alonso: would rather he look like he was out driving the car and point to his team mate not doing so good instead of getting the car to a point were it is at his sweet spot and drive able.


Third paragraph - I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic? Schumacher was famed for his ability to drive through a difficult car. Some of his team mates had an absolute nightmare with the handling.


None of Schumacher's team mates suffer the way Alonso's team mate suffer.


You must be joking! Ask Johnny Herbert or Eddie Irvine.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The two drivers being discussed above there is a constant between them which separates them, it's what has seen one triumph and the other fail.

Vettel: rather than drive around a problem and look great and be thought of as out driving the car, would rather iron out what the problems are and get the car to the sweet spot, thus it later pays serious dividends.

This was one of MSC's great trait none of his team mates found it hard to drive the car, they could not just drive it as fast as he could.

Alonso: would rather he look like he was out driving the car and point to his team mate not doing so good instead of getting the car to a point were it is at his sweet spot and drive able.


Vettel wasn't exactly more successful in ironing out the problems in his first four years at Ferrari than Alonso was.
Vettel did throw away significantly more potential race wins than Alonso, though.


He wasn't? Really!

I suppose the Struggle with '16 to bring a better '17 is not an improvement or overlap to '18.


Like '11 for a better '12?


If you don't know what happened between 11 and 12 well I'll leave you with your false equivalency.

Considering Blown diffuser was taken away and Redbull suffered the most from it, also the use of DRS around the whole lap for qualifying.

He still worked around which later paid dividend in the second half of the season.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:21 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The two drivers being discussed above there is a constant between them which separates them, it's what has seen one triumph and the other fail.

Vettel: rather than drive around a problem and look great and be thought of as out driving the car, would rather iron out what the problems are and get the car to the sweet spot, thus it later pays serious dividends.

This was one of MSC's great trait none of his team mates found it hard to drive the car, they could not just drive it as fast as he could.

Alonso: would rather he look like he was out driving the car and point to his team mate not doing so good instead of getting the car to a point were it is at his sweet spot and drive able.


Third paragraph - I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic? Schumacher was famed for his ability to drive through a difficult car. Some of his team mates had an absolute nightmare with the handling.


None of Schumacher's team mates suffer the way Alonso's team mate suffer.


And I suppose the test drivers and all the engineers and not to mention simulation tools at these mickey mouse teams like Ferrari,Renault and McLaren failed to notice or were in on Alonso sabotaging his teams cars with poor set ups and advice.

Like none of them knew how the car was supposed to behave? The lengths people go to try and pin credit on a driver for a 1000 people's work is bizarre.

Even the best cars can have specific flaws, we've seen the two best cars this year have them and drivers deal with them with varying success. It's not shocking the less competitive your car is the more likely it is to have flaws and it's also not shocking if the guy who's regarded as the most adaptable driver on the grid, even before he showed he was competitive in altogether three entirely different disciplines of motorsport, can get more out of it than....

A Rookie
A guy so sensitive to balance he disappeared even in arguably the fastest car on the grid and launched a million meme's
A guy with the smallest working window for a top driver in livng memory
A guy who's sensitivity to the rear of his car was on full display in Williams in the second half of 2016 when Alonso wasn't there

It's not shocking if those drivers struggle and they didn't need Alonso sabotaging their cars to do it. And as if JB and Kimi just sit back and allow Alonso to mess up their cars. At least put some thought in it.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:41 pm 
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Since this is Alonso & Vettel thread, thought of mentioning that there were rumours that Alonso met with Ferrari management with a potential move to Ferrari in 2019. I know it's close to not happening because of Vettel being there. If Alonso were to come overboard (to replace Vettel who also wants Raikkonen as the 2nd driver), maybe Raikkonen's retirement would happen & Leclerc would join alongside Alonso.

Silly season is silly for some reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The two drivers being discussed above there is a constant between them which separates them, it's what has seen one triumph and the other fail.

Vettel: rather than drive around a problem and look great and be thought of as out driving the car, would rather iron out what the problems are and get the car to the sweet spot, thus it later pays serious dividends.

This was one of MSC's great trait none of his team mates found it hard to drive the car, they could not just drive it as fast as he could.

Alonso: would rather he look like he was out driving the car and point to his team mate not doing so good instead of getting the car to a point were it is at his sweet spot and drive able.


Vettel wasn't exactly more successful in ironing out the problems in his first four years at Ferrari than Alonso was.
Vettel did throw away significantly more potential race wins than Alonso, though.


He wasn't? Really!

I suppose the Struggle with '16 to bring a better '17 is not an improvement or overlap to '18.


Like '11 for a better '12?


If you don't know what happened between 11 and 12 well I'll leave you with your false equivalency.

Considering Blown diffuser was taken away and Redbull suffered the most from it, also the use of DRS around the whole lap for qualifying.

He still worked around which later paid dividend in the second half of the season.


Ah, I forgot, if it's Vettel, improvement is him ironing out the problems. If it is another driver, it is circumstances. Very convincing, these double standards and sky-high bias - not.

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:40 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
A guy so sensitive to balance he disappeared even in arguably the fastest car on the grid and launched a million meme's
A guy with the smallest working window for a top driver in livng memory

Which one of these is Kimi and which one is Button? :lol:

But seriously guys, I think Rockie lives in a world of his own where Vettel is untouchable and Alonso's only goal is to give his teammates slower cars so he can look quick but never win championships.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:53 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
A guy so sensitive to balance he disappeared even in arguably the fastest car on the grid and launched a million meme's
A guy with the smallest working window for a top driver in livng memory

Which one of these is Kimi and which one is Button? :lol:

But seriously guys, I think Rockie lives in a world of his own where Vettel is untouchable and Alonso's only goal is to give his teammates slower cars so he can look quick but never win championships.


I think one is Trulli?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:50 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
A guy so sensitive to balance he disappeared even in arguably the fastest car on the grid and launched a million meme's
A guy with the smallest working window for a top driver in livng memory

Which one of these is Kimi and which one is Button? :lol:

But seriously guys, I think Rockie lives in a world of his own where Vettel is untouchable and Alonso's only goal is to give his teammates slower cars so he can look quick but never win championships.


I think one is Trulli?

Wait but which one is Fisichella?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Lol, I was working backwards through his team mates, didn't get as far as the Renault days (And those cars were generally very good).

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:12 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Since this is Alonso & Vettel thread, thought of mentioning that there were rumours that Alonso met with Ferrari management with a potential move to Ferrari in 2019. I know it's close to not happening because of Vettel being there. If Alonso were to come overboard (to replace Vettel who also wants Raikkonen as the 2nd driver), maybe Raikkonen's retirement would happen & Leclerc would join alongside Alonso.

Silly season is silly for some reasons.


I am interested to read more rumors from this source. lol

So Alonso and Vettel are going to swap ? or Vettel will go to Mercedes and Hamilton retiring or back to Mclaren ?

I think Alonso will probably retire after this year. I thought may be Renault is an option. But Renault seem to be interested in Sainz. So they are obviously putting their resource on car than driver which makes lot of sense IMO. Alonso seemed to be happy with P8 in Spain with Kimi DNF :? So he may still continue, taking another hit on his salary if he is enjoying to fight in midfield but I honestly doubt it.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:20 am 
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At the end of the day there's little difference between Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.

Alonso's problem has always been his tendency to blame everyone else (even to the point of blackmail)... Making him far less acceptable to the top teams at the time.

His (and Hamilton's) one-sided 'feud' against Seb is just funny.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:44 am 
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To be honest, I don’t really see Hamilton having much of a feud with anyone nowadays.

Maybe if Vettel derailed his career like he derailed Alonso’s career, he would dislike him, but he doesn’t.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:04 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Since this is Alonso & Vettel thread, thought of mentioning that there were rumours that Alonso met with Ferrari management with a potential move to Ferrari in 2019. I know it's close to not happening because of Vettel being there. If Alonso were to come overboard (to replace Vettel who also wants Raikkonen as the 2nd driver), maybe Raikkonen's retirement would happen & Leclerc would join alongside Alonso.

Silly season is silly for some reasons.


I am interested to read more rumors from this source. lol

So Alonso and Vettel are going to swap ? or Vettel will go to Mercedes and Hamilton retiring or back to Mclaren ?

I think Alonso will probably retire after this year. I thought may be Renault is an option. But Renault seem to be interested in Sainz. So they are obviously putting their resource on car than driver which makes lot of sense IMO. Alonso seemed to be happy with P8 in Spain with Kimi DNF :? So he may still continue, taking another hit on his salary if he is enjoying to fight in midfield but I honestly doubt it.


I think Alonso quite enjoys being an F1 driver so as long as someone is willing to pay him well for it then I don't see him retiring yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:49 am 
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Rockie wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The two drivers being discussed above there is a constant between them which separates them, it's what has seen one triumph and the other fail.

Vettel: rather than drive around a problem and look great and be thought of as out driving the car, would rather iron out what the problems are and get the car to the sweet spot, thus it later pays serious dividends.

This was one of MSC's great trait none of his team mates found it hard to drive the car, they could not just drive it as fast as he could.

Alonso: would rather he look like he was out driving the car and point to his team mate not doing so good instead of getting the car to a point were it is at his sweet spot and drive able.


Vettel wasn't exactly more successful in ironing out the problems in his first four years at Ferrari than Alonso was.
Vettel did throw away significantly more potential race wins than Alonso, though.


Rockie is talking out of his...

Alonso wants a fast car, like the rest of the drivers.

The fact that he can drive ill handling cars is a strength which not many have, and not sure why you would hold that against him.

And the idea that MSC's cars were easy to drive.... :lol: :lol: :lol: Berger crashed the B195 twice the first time he tried it because he found it so difficult to drive.


Coming from the guy who said he does not want the fastest car, he just wants to be 2 tenths closer to the faster car and he will do the rest.

I still can't stop laughing at folks who drink the Alonso kool aid, now he wants the fastest car like everyone else.

Let this sink in a bit the last time Alonso won a WDC, Kimi had not won won a WDC then.

He and people who believe he's quicker than Vettel live in a universe of alternate facts, in a straight pole shootout he' not getting anywhere near him.

You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:50 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The two drivers being discussed above there is a constant between them which separates them, it's what has seen one triumph and the other fail.

Vettel: rather than drive around a problem and look great and be thought of as out driving the car, would rather iron out what the problems are and get the car to the sweet spot, thus it later pays serious dividends.

This was one of MSC's great trait none of his team mates found it hard to drive the car, they could not just drive it as fast as he could.

Alonso: would rather he look like he was out driving the car and point to his team mate not doing so good instead of getting the car to a point were it is at his sweet spot and drive able.


Third paragraph - I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic? Schumacher was famed for his ability to drive through a difficult car. Some of his team mates had an absolute nightmare with the handling.


None of Schumacher's team mates suffer the way Alonso's team mate suffer.


You must be joking! Ask Johnny Herbert or Eddie Irvine.

Indeed a bit of pot, kettle, black.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:51 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The two drivers being discussed above there is a constant between them which separates them, it's what has seen one triumph and the other fail.

Vettel: rather than drive around a problem and look great and be thought of as out driving the car, would rather iron out what the problems are and get the car to the sweet spot, thus it later pays serious dividends.

This was one of MSC's great trait none of his team mates found it hard to drive the car, they could not just drive it as fast as he could.

Alonso: would rather he look like he was out driving the car and point to his team mate not doing so good instead of getting the car to a point were it is at his sweet spot and drive able.


Vettel wasn't exactly more successful in ironing out the problems in his first four years at Ferrari than Alonso was.
Vettel did throw away significantly more potential race wins than Alonso, though.


He wasn't? Really!

I suppose the Struggle with '16 to bring a better '17 is not an improvement or overlap to '18.


Like '11 for a better '12?


If you don't know what happened between 11 and 12 well I'll leave you with your false equivalency.

Considering Blown diffuser was taken away and Redbull suffered the most from it, also the use of DRS around the whole lap for qualifying.

He still worked around which later paid dividend in the second half of the season.

That would be Adrian Newey finding a way around it.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:54 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Since this is Alonso & Vettel thread, thought of mentioning that there were rumours that Alonso met with Ferrari management with a potential move to Ferrari in 2019. I know it's close to not happening because of Vettel being there. If Alonso were to come overboard (to replace Vettel who also wants Raikkonen as the 2nd driver), maybe Raikkonen's retirement would happen & Leclerc would join alongside Alonso.

Silly season is silly for some reasons.

Vettel is under contract to Ferrari until 2020.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:56 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Vettel wasn't exactly more successful in ironing out the problems in his first four years at Ferrari than Alonso was.
Vettel did throw away significantly more potential race wins than Alonso, though.


He wasn't? Really!

I suppose the Struggle with '16 to bring a better '17 is not an improvement or overlap to '18.


Like '11 for a better '12?


If you don't know what happened between 11 and 12 well I'll leave you with your false equivalency.

Considering Blown diffuser was taken away and Redbull suffered the most from it, also the use of DRS around the whole lap for qualifying.

He still worked around which later paid dividend in the second half of the season.


Ah, I forgot, if it's Vettel, improvement is him ironing out the problems. If it is another driver, it is circumstances. Very convincing, these double standards and sky-high bias - not.

:lol:

Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:58 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
At the end of the day there's little difference between Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.

Alonso's problem has always been his tendency to blame everyone else (even to the point of blackmail)... Making him far less acceptable to the top teams at the time.

His (and Hamilton's) one-sided 'feud' against Seb is just funny.

Hamilton, really?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.



It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote:
You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.


But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.



It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote:
You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.


But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.

Alonso had a faster car in 2010 in more races than Hamilton. Alonso also had clear #1 status and no competion from his teammate while Hamilton had equal status with fellow WDC Jenson Button and often was compromised because of it. That said, in terms of speed, Hamilton did out-qualify Alonso in those years so there would be no way to draw the conclusion you've suggested.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:57 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.



It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote:
You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.


But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.


Or unluckier, less efficient and gathering points, made more mistakes etc. Can be lots of reasons why one package beats another.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:00 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.



It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote:
You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.


But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.

Alonso had a faster car in 2010 in more races than Hamilton. Alonso also had clear #1 status and no competion from his teammate while Hamilton had equal status with fellow WDC Jenson Button and often was compromised because of it. That said, in terms of speed, Hamilton did out-qualify Alonso in those years so there would be no way to draw the conclusion you've suggested.


Oh so circumstances work for Hamilton and not others interesting!


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.



It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote:
You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.


But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.


Or unluckier, less efficient and gathering points, made more mistakes etc. Can be lots of reasons why one package beats another.


The premise was Vettel had a faster car that's why he beat Alonso, I just showed Hamilton had a faster car as well but didn't get the job done.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:05 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.



It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote:
You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.


But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.

Alonso had a faster car in 2010 in more races than Hamilton. Alonso also had clear #1 status and no competion from his teammate while Hamilton had equal status with fellow WDC Jenson Button and often was compromised because of it. That said, in terms of speed, Hamilton did out-qualify Alonso in those years so there would be no way to draw the conclusion you've suggested.


Oh so circumstances work for Hamilton and not others interesting!

What circumstances are you referring to?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:11 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Alonso had a faster car in 2010 in more races than Hamilton. Alonso also had clear #1 status and no competion from his teammate while Hamilton had equal status with fellow WDC Jenson Button and often was compromised because of it. That said, in terms of speed, Hamilton did out-qualify Alonso in those years so there would be no way to draw the conclusion you've suggested.


Oh so circumstances work for Hamilton and not others interesting!

What circumstances are you referring to?


The ones you listed above.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:13 pm 
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In 2010, Alonso did have a faster car than Hamilton in slightly more races than the other way around. Hamilton was the better performing driver that season IMO.

In 2011 Alonso drove better than Hamilton, no argument.

In 2012, McLaren was faster than Ferrari, but horrible team operations and reliability problems at the worst possible time cost Hamilton a serious shot at the WDC.

In 2013, Alonso drove better than Hamilton. Ferrari was probably the slightly quicker car on Sunday though.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:14 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.



It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote:
You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.


But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.


Or unluckier, less efficient and gathering points, made more mistakes etc. Can be lots of reasons why one package beats another.


The premise was Vettel had a faster car that's why he beat Alonso, I just showed Hamilton had a faster car as well but didn't get the job done.


Just "faster car" is a bit ambiguous though. Sounds as if thy had the same advantage but obviously there are degrees of faster.

He had less of an advantage than Seb had,the McLaren's were closer to the Ferrari, whatever way people actually see it in any particular year I think we can all agree the gap between Red Bull and Ferrari was larger than the one between McLaren and Ferrari in general, no?

And that's ignoring the context like race operations/reliability and team dynamic as touched on so it's not that surprising.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Alonso had a faster car in 2010 in more races than Hamilton. Alonso also had clear #1 status and no competion from his teammate while Hamilton had equal status with fellow WDC Jenson Button and often was compromised because of it. That said, in terms of speed, Hamilton did out-qualify Alonso in those years so there would be no way to draw the conclusion you've suggested.


Oh so circumstances work for Hamilton and not others interesting!

What circumstances are you referring to?


The ones you listed above.

I'm not following you here. The circumstances that I listed were particular to Hamilton during the window of time you were discussing. Alonso's circumstances were completely different so I'm not sure what you're talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah it's amazing how some drivers get credit whilst others are merely lucky.



It's funny how you can say this with a straight face, after all you have said about Vettel and what you said below!

pokerman wrote:
You know I blame Alonso for the situation he finds himself in but it's a fact that since 2009 Vettel has always had a faster car than him so saying Vettel is faster than Alonso based on that is nonsense.


But what's most ridiculous about what you said above is the fact Hamilton had a faster car than Alonso between '10 - '13 as well but didn't finish ahead of Alonso.
By this logic Hamilton is slower than Alonso right.


Or unluckier, less efficient and gathering points, made more mistakes etc. Can be lots of reasons why one package beats another.


The premise was Vettel had a faster car that's why he beat Alonso, I just showed Hamilton had a faster car as well but didn't get the job done.


Just "faster car" is a bit ambiguous though. Sounds as if thy had the same advantage but obviously there are degrees of faster.

He had less of an advantage than Seb had,the McLaren's were closer to the Ferrari, whatever way people actually see it in any particular year I think we can all agree the gap between Red Bull and Ferrari was larger than the one between McLaren and Ferrari in general, no?

And that's ignoring the context like race operations/reliability and team dynamic as touched on so it's not that surprising.


Of all the leading teams Redbull had the worse reliability, so I don't get the argument.

They finished Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Hamilton and Button.

That's with Hamilton crashing 2 consecutive race weekends finishing 14pts behind Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Alonso had a faster car in 2010 in more races than Hamilton. Alonso also had clear #1 status and no competion from his teammate while Hamilton had equal status with fellow WDC Jenson Button and often was compromised because of it. That said, in terms of speed, Hamilton did out-qualify Alonso in those years so there would be no way to draw the conclusion you've suggested.


Oh so circumstances work for Hamilton and not others interesting!

What circumstances are you referring to?


The ones you listed above.

I'm not following you here. The circumstances that I listed were particular to Hamilton during the window of time you were discussing. Alonso's circumstances were completely different so I'm not sure what you're talking about.


You making it seem it was a fluke but it was 4 consecutive years.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Rockie wrote:

Of all the leading teams Redbull had the worse reliability, so I don't get the argument.

They finished Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Hamilton and Button.

That's with Hamilton crashing 2 consecutive race weekends finishing 14pts behind Vettel.


2010 I assume? I've no idea off hand if that is true about reliability but I was talking about the period in general (09-13).

On 2010 I think the RB6 was one of the best cars in recent history but Seb was maybe a touch green to get the best out of it on a consistent basis and had a few scrapes himself did he not?

I think all the top guys made errors that year but on out and out car performance I think the RB was pretty dominant while the Ferrari and McLaren swapped 2nd and 3rd most weekends and were pretty tight.

Alonso finished like that because when the Ferrari was good he'd be the one to profit 99% of the time as the No.1 at Ferrari while both the RB's and McLaren's had to share more often when their car was the star, I think the order you posted highlights that pretty well.

It's why both Mercedes and Ferrari are perfectly happy with their current arrangements as well. It just works better.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:32 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Oh so circumstances work for Hamilton and not others interesting!

What circumstances are you referring to?


The ones you listed above.

I'm not following you here. The circumstances that I listed were particular to Hamilton during the window of time you were discussing. Alonso's circumstances were completely different so I'm not sure what you're talking about.


You making it seem it was a fluke but it was 4 consecutive years.

In what way did I suggest that there was a fluke? Comparing Hamilton and Alonso from 2010-2013 is tricky because their situations were different. Hamilton had cars during that time that perhaps had better single lap pace but he also had worse reliability, worse strategy and execution from his team and equal status with very competitive teammates. In 2010, the Ferrari was actually the better car on the season and in 2013, the Ferrari generally had better race pace as Mercedes really struggled with tires that year. Overall, the circumstances are too different to make a 1:1 comparison. Why would you try to anyway when you actually have a year in 2007 where they were on the same team?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:33 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Of all the leading teams Redbull had the worse reliability, so I don't get the argument.

They finished Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Hamilton and Button.

That's with Hamilton crashing 2 consecutive race weekends finishing 14pts behind Vettel.


2010 I assume? I've no idea off hand if that is true about reliability but I was talking about the period in general (09-13).

On 2010 I think the RB6 was one of the best cars in recent history but Seb was maybe a touch green to get the best out of it on a consistent basis and had a few scrapes himself did he not?

I think all the top guys made errors that year but on out and out car performance I think the RB was pretty dominant while the Ferrari and McLaren swapped 2nd and 3rd most weekends and were pretty tight.

Alonso finished like that because when the Ferrari was good he'd be the one to profit 99% of the time as the No.1 at Ferrari while both the RB's and McLaren's had to share more often when their car was the star, I think the order you posted highlights that pretty well.

It's why both Mercedes and Ferrari are perfectly happy with their current arrangements as well. It just works better.

In 2010 Hamilton had fewer errors than both Alonso and Vettel. Up until the two DNFs towards the end of the year, he hadn't put a wheel wrong while Alonso and Vettel both had a comedy of errors that year.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:36 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
In what way did I suggest that there was a fluke? Comparing Hamilton and Alonso from 2010-2013 is tricky because their situations were different. Hamilton had cars during that time that perhaps had better single lap pace but he also had worse reliability, worse strategy and execution from his team and equal status with very competitive teammates. In 2010, the Ferrari was actually the better car on the season and in 2013, the Ferrari generally had better race pace as Mercedes really struggled with tires that year. Overall, the circumstances are too different to make a 1:1 comparison. Why would you try to anyway when you actually have a year in 2007 where they were on the same team?


Now we moving the goal post?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:38 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Of all the leading teams Redbull had the worse reliability, so I don't get the argument.

They finished Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Hamilton and Button.

That's with Hamilton crashing 2 consecutive race weekends finishing 14pts behind Vettel.


2010 I assume? I've no idea off hand if that is true about reliability but I was talking about the period in general (09-13).

On 2010 I think the RB6 was one of the best cars in recent history but Seb was maybe a touch green to get the best out of it on a consistent basis and had a few scrapes himself did he not?

I think all the top guys made errors that year but on out and out car performance I think the RB was pretty dominant while the Ferrari and McLaren swapped 2nd and 3rd most weekends and were pretty tight.

Alonso finished like that because when the Ferrari was good he'd be the one to profit 99% of the time as the No.1 at Ferrari while both the RB's and McLaren's had to share more often when their car was the star, I think the order you posted highlights that pretty well.

It's why both Mercedes and Ferrari are perfectly happy with their current arrangements as well. It just works better.

In 2010 Hamilton had fewer errors than both Alonso and Vettel. Up until the two DNFs towards the end of the year, he hadn't put a wheel wrong while Alonso and Vettel both had a comedy of errors that year.


Oh it had nothing to do with Redbull's reliability?

Outside of Turkey and Spa or the puncture on lap one at Silverstone what was the comedy of errors for Vettel?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:43 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
In what way did I suggest that there was a fluke? Comparing Hamilton and Alonso from 2010-2013 is tricky because their situations were different. Hamilton had cars during that time that perhaps had better single lap pace but he also had worse reliability, worse strategy and execution from his team and equal status with very competitive teammates. In 2010, the Ferrari was actually the better car on the season and in 2013, the Ferrari generally had better race pace as Mercedes really struggled with tires that year. Overall, the circumstances are too different to make a 1:1 comparison. Why would you try to anyway when you actually have a year in 2007 where they were on the same team?


Now we moving the goal post?

No, we're dealing with facts. If you want to compare Hamilton against Alonso, why wouldn't you focus on the time that they were teammates? We always struggle to compare drivers who have never teamed together. This thread is a good example of that With Alonso and Vettel. When they have been teammates, you can come up with more meaningful conclusions if you are inclined to do so.

You seem to want to create a very convoluted rationale for why Vettel should be considered better than Alonso based on three different teams over 4 different seasons with different circumstances and cars. It's just a weak and illogical argument. Vettel had stronger cars than Alonso every season since he moved to Red Bull in 2009. Hamilton did not nor did he have equal reliability. So you are attempting to create a false equivalence.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Of all the leading teams Redbull had the worse reliability, so I don't get the argument.

They finished Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Hamilton and Button.

That's with Hamilton crashing 2 consecutive race weekends finishing 14pts behind Vettel.


2010 I assume? I've no idea off hand if that is true about reliability but I was talking about the period in general (09-13).

On 2010 I think the RB6 was one of the best cars in recent history but Seb was maybe a touch green to get the best out of it on a consistent basis and had a few scrapes himself did he not?

I think all the top guys made errors that year but on out and out car performance I think the RB was pretty dominant while the Ferrari and McLaren swapped 2nd and 3rd most weekends and were pretty tight.

Alonso finished like that because when the Ferrari was good he'd be the one to profit 99% of the time as the No.1 at Ferrari while both the RB's and McLaren's had to share more often when their car was the star, I think the order you posted highlights that pretty well.

It's why both Mercedes and Ferrari are perfectly happy with their current arrangements as well. It just works better.

In 2010 Hamilton had fewer errors than both Alonso and Vettel. Up until the two DNFs towards the end of the year, he hadn't put a wheel wrong while Alonso and Vettel both had a comedy of errors that year.


Oh it had nothing to do with Redbull's reliability?

Outside of Turkey and Spa or the puncture on lap one at Silverstone what was the comedy of errors for Vettel?

Well you just named three crashes right there. So that's a good start isn't it? That puncture at Silverstone was the result of a terrible start and some dodgy driving. There's also the penalty in Hungary that cost him the win. You are correct that Vettel had numerous reliability issues that season and that should be considered when making the assessment. He also had a car with absolutely dominant pace. That race in Hungary was a weekend where RBR out-qualified the field by more than a second. Overall he managed to get the job done but it wasn't one of his best impressive individual seasons considering the car's pace.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 4:02 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Oh so circumstances work for Hamilton and not others interesting!

What circumstances are you referring to?


The ones you listed above.

I'm not following you here. The circumstances that I listed were particular to Hamilton during the window of time you were discussing. Alonso's circumstances were completely different so I'm not sure what you're talking about.


You making it seem it was a fluke but it was 4 consecutive years.


Not a fluke but just there's a lot of context missing.

2010-Cars pretty even but Lewis was marginally better but finished behind because of sharing with Button
2011-McLaren quicker but Alonso was better as Lewis has a complete one-off season crashing all the time
2012-McLaren quicker but more unreliable and Alonso only marginally better even with an ATG season and Lewis's bad luck
2013-Mercedes quicker on Saturday but Ferrari quicker on Sunday and Alonso better but Lewis was in a new team and getting used to new brakes


Lewis would've finished ahead in two of them(2010+2012) with better luck although funnily enough 2012 would imo be a bit undeserved as I felt Alonso edged it although Lewis's own season was very good. He also should've finished ahead in 2011 and that one is all on him though fair enough.

For me Alonso came out of that period 3-1 with Lewis with a bit of an asterisk as 2012 is a once in a generation season from Alonso and Lewis was actually damn close to him so it feels harsh as they were both great that year. I had it 2-2 with Seb.

So technically you could say Seb did better if you agreed with me but considering Lewis had a team switch in the middle and Seb had more of an advantage than Lewis had over Alonso as he had quicker more reliable cars and a weaker team mate, I think all things considered there wasn't much difference at all.

I think if you swapped them around you could get all manner of different scores as well though. Circumstances and conditions affect everything for a driver.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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