planetf1.com

It is currently Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:43 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14200
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
If you look at Massa vs Hamilton in Monza 2014 and Massa vs Verstappen in Monza 2017, you can see that Massa did not treat Hamilton the same as he treated Max. It is obvious that because of Max's reputation, a veteran driver like Massa was not going to make it easy for him. Massa has a lot more respect for Hamilton than he does for Max is what I could deduce from watching those two videos.

I have blamed Max for the Monza incident in the past but I must change my tune after watching the Massa vs Hamilton clip. It was Massa's fault vs Max, because he didn't leave any room even though Max's car was completely alongside.

That's true, Massa gave Hamilton a lot more room. But that's completely beside the point I'm making, which I'm getting somewhat tired of having to repeat.

It doesn't matter if Massa was to blame for forcing Verstappen off track. Verstappen had already been pushed off track, and tried to rejoin straight into the side of Massa's car.

Image
(screenshot from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KZprYBQI2Y)

Why is Max still turning hard right at this moment? What exactly does he think is going to happen next, except for a crunch into Massa's sidepod? Yes, the move was probably unfair, but that doesn't matter. It was time to avoid the collision, and that's what he didn't do.


He decided that he was not going to give in. He kept his elbows out so to speak. Nothing wrong with that. It’s just hard racing but the bad race craft was from Massa.

Rosberg decided he was not going to give in at Spa '14. Don't recall many thinking there was nothing wrong with that at the time


Different scenario. Rosberg was much further back and did actually have room.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
If you look at Massa vs Hamilton in Monza 2014 and Massa vs Verstappen in Monza 2017, you can see that Massa did not treat Hamilton the same as he treated Max. It is obvious that because of Max's reputation, a veteran driver like Massa was not going to make it easy for him. Massa has a lot more respect for Hamilton than he does for Max is what I could deduce from watching those two videos.

I have blamed Max for the Monza incident in the past but I must change my tune after watching the Massa vs Hamilton clip. It was Massa's fault vs Max, because he didn't leave any room even though Max's car was completely alongside.

That's true, Massa gave Hamilton a lot more room. But that's completely beside the point I'm making, which I'm getting somewhat tired of having to repeat.

It doesn't matter if Massa was to blame for forcing Verstappen off track. Verstappen had already been pushed off track, and tried to rejoin straight into the side of Massa's car.

Image
(screenshot from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KZprYBQI2Y)

Why is Max still turning hard right at this moment? What exactly does he think is going to happen next, except for a crunch into Massa's sidepod? Yes, the move was probably unfair, but that doesn't matter. It was time to avoid the collision, and that's what he didn't do.


He decided that he was not going to give in. He kept his elbows out so to speak. Nothing wrong with that. It’s just hard racing but the bad race craft was from Massa.

Rosberg decided he was not going to give in at Spa '14. Don't recall many thinking there was nothing wrong with that at the time


Different scenario. Rosberg was much further back and did actually have room.

I don't agree he had room, but I accept he was further back


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7364
Location: Belgium
In Francorchamps, Rosberg was backing out to the rear. Hamilton turned in too sharply and cut his tyre on Rosberg's endplate. While, at least according to Charlie Whiting, Hamilton had the right to run Rosberg off the track, it was still a very stupid thing to do.
The situation in the Monza chicane between Max and Felipe can hardly be compared, but it is important that , still according to Charlie Whiting, Felipe did not have the right to run Max off the track.

Clearly, these "secret" rules should be made available for fans to study.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
Fiki wrote:
In Francorchamps, Rosberg was backing out to the rear. Hamilton turned in too sharply and cut his tyre on Rosberg's endplate. While, at least according to Charlie Whiting, Hamilton had the right to run Rosberg off the track, it was still a very stupid thing to do.
The situation in the Monza chicane between Max and Felipe can hardly be compared, but it is important that , still according to Charlie Whiting, Felipe did not have the right to run Max off the track.

Clearly, these "secret" rules should be made available for fans to study.


Well, in the Monza case there is not really a secret rule, as you too know that the rules specifically contain that a competitor cannot crowd another competitor off track. So that case is covered.

It is really the condining of the "hanging out to dry" manoeuvre that should be put into wording, when a competitor that is ahead crowds runs another competitor, who is behind on the outside, out of the track. Because that does not agree with the actual written regulations.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7364
Location: Belgium
mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
In Francorchamps, Rosberg was backing out to the rear. Hamilton turned in too sharply and cut his tyre on Rosberg's endplate. While, at least according to Charlie Whiting, Hamilton had the right to run Rosberg off the track, it was still a very stupid thing to do.
The situation in the Monza chicane between Max and Felipe can hardly be compared, but it is important that , still according to Charlie Whiting, Felipe did not have the right to run Max off the track.

Clearly, these "secret" rules should be made available for fans to study.


Well, in the Monza case there is not really a secret rule, as you too know that the rules specifically contain that a competitor cannot crowd another competitor off track. So that case is covered.

It is really the condining of the "hanging out to dry" manoeuvre that should be put into wording, when a competitor that is ahead crowds runs another competitor, who is behind on the outside, out of the track. Because that does not agree with the actual written regulations.
Looking for Charlie Whiting's "explanation" (last year, after Alonso was allowed to run Palmer into the wilderness at Rivage), I found reference to rule 27.7. That rule is no longer to be found.
Also, it appears the drivers were briefed on how a driver going round the outside was to be judged, but this briefing is also nowhere to be found.

I don't know whether there are other sports* where "secret" rules or interpretations are in use, but I'm very uncomfortable with the current rules situation in F1.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
In Francorchamps, Rosberg was backing out to the rear. Hamilton turned in too sharply and cut his tyre on Rosberg's endplate. While, at least according to Charlie Whiting, Hamilton had the right to run Rosberg off the track, it was still a very stupid thing to do.
The situation in the Monza chicane between Max and Felipe can hardly be compared, but it is important that , still according to Charlie Whiting, Felipe did not have the right to run Max off the track.

Clearly, these "secret" rules should be made available for fans to study.


Well, in the Monza case there is not really a secret rule, as you too know that the rules specifically contain that a competitor cannot crowd another competitor off track. So that case is covered.

It is really the condining of the "hanging out to dry" manoeuvre that should be put into wording, when a competitor that is ahead crowds runs another competitor, who is behind on the outside, out of the track. Because that does not agree with the actual written regulations.
Looking for Charlie Whiting's "explanation" (last year, after Alonso was allowed to run Palmer into the wilderness at Rivage), I found reference to rule 27.7. That rule is no longer to be found.
Also, it appears the drivers were briefed on how a driver going round the outside was to be judged, but this briefing is also nowhere to be found.

I don't know whether there are other sports* where "secret" rules or interpretations are in use, but I'm very uncomfortable with the current rules situation in F1.


Apart from the specific F1 technical and sporting regulations, the FIA International Sporting Code (which is referenced in the sporting regulations) and its appendices is also in effect for F1. You can find this here: https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

In Appendix L to the International Sporting Code, there is still this section (Chapter IV, 2. b) ) about what we're discussing here:

Quote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as
deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or
any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7364
Location: Belgium
mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
In Francorchamps, Rosberg was backing out to the rear. Hamilton turned in too sharply and cut his tyre on Rosberg's endplate. While, at least according to Charlie Whiting, Hamilton had the right to run Rosberg off the track, it was still a very stupid thing to do.
The situation in the Monza chicane between Max and Felipe can hardly be compared, but it is important that , still according to Charlie Whiting, Felipe did not have the right to run Max off the track.

Clearly, these "secret" rules should be made available for fans to study.


Well, in the Monza case there is not really a secret rule, as you too know that the rules specifically contain that a competitor cannot crowd another competitor off track. So that case is covered.

It is really the condining of the "hanging out to dry" manoeuvre that should be put into wording, when a competitor that is ahead crowds runs another competitor, who is behind on the outside, out of the track. Because that does not agree with the actual written regulations.
Looking for Charlie Whiting's "explanation" (last year, after Alonso was allowed to run Palmer into the wilderness at Rivage), I found reference to rule 27.7. That rule is no longer to be found.
Also, it appears the drivers were briefed on how a driver going round the outside was to be judged, but this briefing is also nowhere to be found.

I don't know whether there are other sports* where "secret" rules or interpretations are in use, but I'm very uncomfortable with the current rules situation in F1.


Apart from the specific F1 technical and sporting regulations, the FIA International Sporting Code (which is referenced in the sporting regulations) and its appendices is also in effect for F1. You can find this here: https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

In Appendix L to the International Sporting Code, there is still this section (Chapter IV, 2. b) ) about what we're discussing here:

Quote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as
deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or
any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
I know, and I know about that rule. But you only reinforce my point; what does Whiting refer to when allowing Alonso to run Palmer off?

This is from the Autosport article after things were "clarified":
Autosport wrote:
According to the FIA's guidelines, which were made clear to the drivers back in 2013, if a driver is intending to overtake on the outside, and at the apex of the corner he is in front, he must be given room on the exit of the corner.

Whiting showed the drivers onboard footage of both incidents, which showed that Hulkenberg had his car in front by the time they reached the apex, hence Magnussen was given a penalty.

While it was very marginal, close inspection of the footage showed that Palmer did not have a wheel in front of Alonso and therefore the incident was not looked at by the stewards.

As Alonso was in front, and knowing the rules, he exploited his right to use the whole width of the track and take the position.

Source: http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/131590

I suppose you agree with me that this ruling is in contravention of the Appendix L rule you quote? Or at least that a rule is being used, which isn't known to us?

My standpoint is simple; it may be great for fans to discuss these things to they go blue in the face, but surely the rules on which such matters are decided, should be available to all of them. After all, they provide the income to all those who are in F1.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
Fiki wrote:

I suppose you agree with me that this ruling is in contravention of the Appendix L rule you quote? Or at least that a rule is being used, which isn't known to us?


Yes I do. This is why I said Monza is covered (as Whiting said Massa had no right to crowd Verstappen off track, as described in Appendix L) and why condoning the "hanging out to dry" manoeuvre goes against the written rules and this should be adressed.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28069
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Why is Max still turning hard right at this moment? What exactly does he think is going to happen next, except for a crunch into Massa's sidepod? Yes, the move was probably unfair, but that doesn't matter. It was time to avoid the collision, and that's what he didn't do.

He decided that he was not going to give in. He kept his elbows out so to speak. Nothing wrong with that. It’s just hard racing but the bad race craft was from Massa.

So you're saying he hit Massa on purpose to make a point? I wouldn't argue with that, but I don't think it's responsible or a good idea.


Well I don't think he hit Massa on purpose. He is entitled to room because his car is alongside. Did Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose in Austria 16'?

Hamilton was in front.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 2nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28069
Fiki wrote:
In Francorchamps, Rosberg was backing out to the rear. Hamilton turned in too sharply and cut his tyre on Rosberg's endplate. While, at least according to Charlie Whiting, Hamilton had the right to run Rosberg off the track, it was still a very stupid thing to do.
The situation in the Monza chicane between Max and Felipe can hardly be compared, but it is important that , still according to Charlie Whiting, Felipe did not have the right to run Max off the track.

Clearly, these "secret" rules should be made available for fans to study.

Except that in Spa 2014 Rosberg was nowhere near to be run off the track.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 2nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 7:52 pm
Posts: 708
I remember way back when Lauda was talking about Lewis as the guy who was "gonna kill someone" if he didn't get his act together. I guess he turned out ok...

_________________
On Twitter, follow me @GPAmericas for all the latest breaking news and current photos...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3417
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Why is Max still turning hard right at this moment? What exactly does he think is going to happen next, except for a crunch into Massa's sidepod? Yes, the move was probably unfair, but that doesn't matter. It was time to avoid the collision, and that's what he didn't do.

He decided that he was not going to give in. He kept his elbows out so to speak. Nothing wrong with that. It’s just hard racing but the bad race craft was from Massa.

So you're saying he hit Massa on purpose to make a point? I wouldn't argue with that, but I don't think it's responsible or a good idea.


Well I don't think he hit Massa on purpose. He is entitled to room because his car is alongside. Did Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose in Austria 16'?

Hamilton was in front.


Barely. But my point is that he didnt. I consider that holding his ground. Rosberg didnt leave him any room.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28069
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
He decided that he was not going to give in. He kept his elbows out so to speak. Nothing wrong with that. It’s just hard racing but the bad race craft was from Massa.

So you're saying he hit Massa on purpose to make a point? I wouldn't argue with that, but I don't think it's responsible or a good idea.


Well I don't think he hit Massa on purpose. He is entitled to room because his car is alongside. Did Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose in Austria 16'?

Hamilton was in front.


Barely. But my point is that he didnt. I consider that holding his ground. Rosberg didnt leave him any room.

He was close to a car length in front of Rosberg before Rosberg decided not to turn for the corner and not slow down as much, the contact came when Hamilton turned to keep himself on the track whilst still in front of Rosberg, I'm confused by the post did Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose when it was Rosberg that hit Hamilton and did not Rosberg get penalised by the stewards?

You seem to be comparing a situation were one driver was in front (Hamilton) to a situation were one driver was behind (Verstappen).

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 2nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3417
pokerman wrote:

He was close to a car length in front of Rosberg before Rosberg decided not to turn for the corner and not slow down as much, the contact came when Hamilton turned to keep himself on the track whilst still in front of Rosberg, I'm confused by the post did Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose when it was Rosberg that hit Hamilton and did not Rosberg get penalised by the stewards?

You seem to be comparing a situation were one driver was in front (Hamilton) to a situation were one driver was behind (Verstappen).


Hamilton had maybe half a car length in front, so that is considered alongside in my book. But it is irrelevant to my point. I was trying to compare both situations in which a driver got hit because he didn't back out of it and because the other driver decided not to leave room. So to clarify, I don't believe Verstappen hit Massa on purpose and I don't believe Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28069
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:

He was close to a car length in front of Rosberg before Rosberg decided not to turn for the corner and not slow down as much, the contact came when Hamilton turned to keep himself on the track whilst still in front of Rosberg, I'm confused by the post did Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose when it was Rosberg that hit Hamilton and did not Rosberg get penalised by the stewards?

You seem to be comparing a situation were one driver was in front (Hamilton) to a situation were one driver was behind (Verstappen).


Hamilton had maybe half a car length in front, so that is considered alongside in my book. But it is irrelevant to my point. I was trying to compare both situations in which a driver got hit because he didn't back out of it and because the other driver decided not to leave room. So to clarify, I don't believe Verstappen hit Massa on purpose and I don't believe Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose.

Still why are you comparing Hamilton with Verstappen when like Massa he was the car in front, the car behind hit the car in front and that's why Rosberg got penalised, likewise Verstappen hit Massa from behind, it wouldn't have surprised me that if it had been Massa's car that got damaged then Verstappen would have been penalised, as it happened it was Verstappen's car that got damaged and no penalty for Massa.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 2nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
In Francorchamps, Rosberg was backing out to the rear. Hamilton turned in too sharply and cut his tyre on Rosberg's endplate. While, at least according to Charlie Whiting, Hamilton had the right to run Rosberg off the track, it was still a very stupid thing to do.
The situation in the Monza chicane between Max and Felipe can hardly be compared, but it is important that , still according to Charlie Whiting, Felipe did not have the right to run Max off the track.

Clearly, these "secret" rules should be made available for fans to study.

Except that in Spa 2014 Rosberg was nowhere near to be run off the track.

If he hadn't tucked back in he would have been, surely?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
pokerman wrote:
Still why are you comparing Hamilton with Verstappen when like Massa he was the car in front, the car behind hit the car in front and that's why Rosberg got penalised, likewise Verstappen hit Massa from behind, it wouldn't have surprised me that if it had been Massa's car that got damaged then Verstappen would have been penalised, as it happened it was Verstappen's car that got damaged and no penalty for Massa.


Are we still talking about Monza? Because Verstappen was fully alongside for the most part through the righthander, and so he was entitled to space on the track. It wasn't until Massa decided to throttle ahead to the apex of the lefthander, as if Verstappen wasn't there, that he was able to pull fractionally ahead but at that point he was already doing things he shouldn't.

Agree about Hamilton-Rosberg though.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3417
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:

He was close to a car length in front of Rosberg before Rosberg decided not to turn for the corner and not slow down as much, the contact came when Hamilton turned to keep himself on the track whilst still in front of Rosberg, I'm confused by the post did Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose when it was Rosberg that hit Hamilton and did not Rosberg get penalised by the stewards?

You seem to be comparing a situation were one driver was in front (Hamilton) to a situation were one driver was behind (Verstappen).


Hamilton had maybe half a car length in front, so that is considered alongside in my book. But it is irrelevant to my point. I was trying to compare both situations in which a driver got hit because he didn't back out of it and because the other driver decided not to leave room. So to clarify, I don't believe Verstappen hit Massa on purpose and I don't believe Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose.

Still why are you comparing Hamilton with Verstappen when like Massa he was the car in front, the car behind hit the car in front and that's why Rosberg got penalised, likewise Verstappen hit Massa from behind, it wouldn't have surprised me that if it had been Massa's car that got damaged then Verstappen would have been penalised, as it happened it was Verstappen's car that got damaged and no penalty for Massa.


You can't say that Massa was really in front and you can't say that Hamilton was really in front because a significant portion of the car is alongside. Again, it was half a car length at the most for hamilton, maybe this video will help you remember.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNTnYGfVTBs

And the fact that the stewards didn't penalize Massa or Verstappen doesn't prove anything except for another case of inconsistent stewarding we have had to witness over the years.
In both cases, the cars were going to take the corner side by side, noone was fully ahead of the other and noone should decide to take the corner as if the other didn't exist.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6456
I was watching the video from the F1 youtube site yesterday and Vettel in his interview said that he knew Max was going to overtake there and left plenty of space on the inside. Max's first instinct was to complain on the radio that "he locked up and then just turned in very sharp" however! At least he accepted the blame later on with a cool head and had a face to face with Vettel.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7364
Location: Belgium
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
In Francorchamps, Rosberg was backing out to the rear. Hamilton turned in too sharply and cut his tyre on Rosberg's endplate. While, at least according to Charlie Whiting, Hamilton had the right to run Rosberg off the track, it was still a very stupid thing to do.
The situation in the Monza chicane between Max and Felipe can hardly be compared, but it is important that , still according to Charlie Whiting, Felipe did not have the right to run Max off the track.

Clearly, these "secret" rules should be made available for fans to study.

Except that in Spa 2014 Rosberg was nowhere near to be run off the track.
I don't understand your remark. My post outlined the rationale used by Whiting, not the outcome or the chosen outcome. That is irrelevant.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7364
Location: Belgium
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:

He was close to a car length in front of Rosberg before Rosberg decided not to turn for the corner and not slow down as much, the contact came when Hamilton turned to keep himself on the track whilst still in front of Rosberg, I'm confused by the post did Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose when it was Rosberg that hit Hamilton and did not Rosberg get penalised by the stewards?

You seem to be comparing a situation were one driver was in front (Hamilton) to a situation were one driver was behind (Verstappen).


Hamilton had maybe half a car length in front, so that is considered alongside in my book. But it is irrelevant to my point. I was trying to compare both situations in which a driver got hit because he didn't back out of it and because the other driver decided not to leave room. So to clarify, I don't believe Verstappen hit Massa on purpose and I don't believe Hamilton hit Rosberg on purpose.
Hamilton had the right to be given room, according to the shady Whiting rule. Which is exactly what he got, because at the moment of the hit (when Hamilton turned in and hit Rosberg's wing) there was more than a car's width of room to the outside. So the stewards' eventual verdict is a bit of a mystery to me - just as much as Whiting's rule. And almost as much of a mystery as to why Rosberg was punished for continuing the lap with a damaged car.

As a matter of fact, this is one incident that drivers such as Verstappen could point to and use in their defence as "the stewards make it up as they go along anyway". Not that this is per sé my point of view, but as I said, they've got me mystified.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:13 pm
Posts: 294
For the sake of sanity, lets please steer this back towards Verstappen rather than doing Hamilton/Rosberg at Spa yet again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7364
Location: Belgium
I thought I just did. More or less... But point taken.

Actually, unless Charlie Whiting explained that rule about being ahead at the apex when going round the outside a sufficient number of times since 2013, it might just be possible Max never really knew about it. And judging by the mess older, more experienced drivers have been making of the rules, that would clear him to a certain extent. Wouldn't it? (I can't believe I'm defending him. Must lie down for a bit.)

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 12:49 am
Posts: 313
Unfair to pick on Verstappen - he is the one being sacrificed.

Kimi compromises his race to help Vettel and everyone sympathises with him.

Verstappen takes out the championship leader and tries to slow Lewis as well....all so his team mate can get closer to the championship lead and he gets no more sympathy than the Torro Rossos did in taking themselves out to bring out the safety car.

It is just unfair.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6456
iano wrote:
Unfair to pick on Verstappen - he is the one being sacrificed.

Kimi compromises his race to help Vettel and everyone sympathises with him.

Verstappen takes out the championship leader and tries to slow Lewis as well....all so his team mate can get closer to the championship lead and he gets no more sympathy than the Torro Rossos did in taking themselves out to bring out the safety car.

It is just unfair.


Meant as a joke, right?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28069
Another crash for Verstappen Baku FP1, I can't get the car into first gear rather than I've just stuffed the car into the barrier.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 2nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14200
pokerman wrote:
Another crash for Verstappen Baku FP1, I can't get the car into first gear rather than I've just stuffed the car into the barrier.


But if he hadn't you wouldn't have the chance to bash him. So you know, swings and roundabouts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 12:49 am
Posts: 313
Siao7 wrote:
iano wrote:
Unfair to pick on Verstappen - he is the one being sacrificed.

Kimi compromises his race to help Vettel and everyone sympathises with him.

Verstappen takes out the championship leader and tries to slow Lewis as well....all so his team mate can get closer to the championship lead and he gets no more sympathy than the Torro Rossos did in taking themselves out to bring out the safety car.

It is just unfair.


Meant as a joke, right?


I was wondering how the crash in FP1 could be 'taking one for the team'. Thought about suggesting he was collecting crash test data..... but then i realise I best not suggest that as ... what do they call the 'driver' in crash tests?

In all seriousness the poor guy has lost a bit of confidence and needs get through this. He is a phenomenal driver for his age, and just imagine how good he can be in few years if he learns from all this.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28069
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Another crash for Verstappen Baku FP1, I can't get the car into first gear rather than I've just stuffed the car into the barrier.


But if he hadn't you wouldn't have the chance to bash him. So you know, swings and roundabouts.

I'm not sure what you mean, but when it cut to Verstappen his main problem seemed to be that he couldn't get the car into first gear hence me thinking he'd parked his car with a mechanical problem.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 2nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6456
iano wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
iano wrote:
Unfair to pick on Verstappen - he is the one being sacrificed.

Kimi compromises his race to help Vettel and everyone sympathises with him.

Verstappen takes out the championship leader and tries to slow Lewis as well....all so his team mate can get closer to the championship lead and he gets no more sympathy than the Torro Rossos did in taking themselves out to bring out the safety car.

It is just unfair.


Meant as a joke, right?


I was wondering how the crash in FP1 could be 'taking one for the team'. Thought about suggesting he was collecting crash test data..... but then i realise I best not suggest that as ... what do they call the 'driver' in crash tests?

In all seriousness the poor guy has lost a bit of confidence and needs get through this. He is a phenomenal driver for his age, and just imagine how good he can be in few years if he learns from all this.


Agreed, he just needs to keep his head cool. Accepting the blame for the clash with Vettel was a good start, though he rejected it in the beginning. But in any case, he has a bright future if he can keep his nose clean


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9898
Location: Travelling around the world
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Another crash for Verstappen Baku FP1, I can't get the car into first gear rather than I've just stuffed the car into the barrier.


But if he hadn't you wouldn't have the chance to bash him. So you know, swings and roundabouts.

I like Verstappen, I've been waiting to see him push on this year and assert himself towards the top. It hasn't happened. It's been a series of howlers - week in, week out. Every GP in 2018.

Can't say I disagree with pokerman on his critical point of view here. It's warranted

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:49 am
Posts: 860
The only reason he hasn't crashed multiple times this race is that others have let him do [foolish] things - rather than crash - TIME for the FIA to let max sit out a few races for stupid and dangerous driving


Last edited by Mod Titanium on Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
language edit


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1706
Ricardo raced so fairly against max this race.... Such a shame max did move twice

_________________
Pathfinder


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7364
Location: Belgium
Time for a massive foot oscillation from the whole of the Red Bull team up Verstappen's backside. And afterwards tell Charlie Whiting how stupid it is to encourage bad defending by youngsters who won't learn.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 5:09 pm
Posts: 82
just ban this guy already :mad:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:37 pm
Posts: 681
f1madman wrote:
Ricardo raced so fairly against max this race.... Such a shame max did move twice


Max almost crashed onto his teammate twice this race alone.

Then, seeing that wasn't fun enough, he didn't give him an option, and made sure his teammate crashed onto him.

And people still think he's a genius.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 1369
Location: Far side of Koozebane
So the question is when do RB and other teams start to look towards Verstappen as perhaps as much or more of a liability as an asset?

Verstappen caused 2 collisions with his team mate today, one could have ended either one or both their races, the other did.

_________________
Question: If a compulsive liar tells you they're a compulsive liar, are they really a compulsive liar?

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 4515
Max was moving in Azerbaijan, so clearly his (big) mistake. Race ban will coll him down. Pity as he was so stern and successful in defending against Ricci, minus the tyre rub.

_________________
The end is near


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Posts: 823
Location: India
The crash with Ricciardo reminds me what he did to Kimi in SPA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Li5w5BqIU


The way he drives with someone equally aggressive crash is always on cards

_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM9-GK3MeLI


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28069
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Max was moving in Azerbaijan, so clearly his (big) mistake. Race ban will coll him down. Pity as he was so stern and successful in defending against Ricci, minus the tyre rub.

Apparently according to Verstappen he did nothing wrong whatsoever throughout the race which included him hitting Ricciardo earlier in the race, Verstappen's onboard shows him unwinding the left lock before the contact so he let his car run wide towards Ricciardo's car as he tried to squeeze him.

I watched an interesting video were Verstappen was mentioned, the expert said that it might not be immaturity on the part of Verstappen but his basic DNA as in this is the way he races and as always raced and will continue to do so, a sort of modern day Gilles Villenueve but of course Gilles always gave racing room unlike Max who is quite happy to make contact.

The comparison with Gilles is of an incredibly talented and exciting driver that lived on the edge, made mistakes and never became a Champion, although to be fair to Gilles I believe he only had 5/6 years in F1.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 2nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AnRs, Junglist, Option or Prime and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group