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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:05 pm 
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So 4 races in a spin in the Australian race, a crash in qualifying and race ending/destroying contact with Hamilton, Vettel and Ricciardo.

After the apology in China what did he learn, nothing?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Max was moving in Azerbaijan, so clearly his (big) mistake. Race ban will coll him down. Pity as he was so stern and successful in defending against Ricci, minus the tyre rub.

Apparently according to Verstappen he did nothing wrong whatsoever throughout the race which included him hitting Ricciardo earlier in the race, Verstappen's onboard shows him unwinding the left lock before the contact so he let his car run wide towards Ricciardo's car as he tried to squeeze him.

I watched an interesting video were Verstappen was mentioned, the expert said that it might not be immaturity on the part of Verstappen but his basic DNA as in this is the way he races and as always raced and will continue to do so, a sort of modern day Gilles Villenueve but of course Gilles always gave racing room unlike Max who is quite happy to make contact.

The comparison with Gilles is of an incredibly talented and exciting driver that lived on the edge, made mistakes and never became a Champion, although to be fair to Gilles I believe he only had 5/6 years in F1.


The first of the three incidents was the really bad one for me. It looked like he was trying to deliberately drive his team into the wall. Its the sort of thing that really should be clamped down on but never is.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:39 pm 
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His other piece of dodgy driving that seems to have been glossed over or just forgotten about was his cutting a corner early in the race to keep the Renault (Sainz?) behind. There was no visible mistake and it looked like he did it on purpose, most likely to give himself a gap while he got his tyres up to temperature following the SC restart. I'm surprised we didn't hear Renault kicking up a fuss.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:43 pm 
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j man wrote:
His other piece of dodgy driving that seems to have been glossed over or just forgotten about was his cutting a corner early in the race to keep the Renault (Sainz?) behind. There was no visible mistake and it looked like he did it on purpose, most likely to give himself a gap while he got his tyres up to temperature following the SC restart. I'm surprised we didn't hear Renault kicking up a fuss.

Yeah he didn't even get any kind of warning from the stewards for doing that, it seemed quite deliberate to cut a corner like that.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
His other piece of dodgy driving that seems to have been glossed over or just forgotten about was his cutting a corner early in the race to keep the Renault (Sainz?) behind. There was no visible mistake and it looked like he did it on purpose, most likely to give himself a gap while he got his tyres up to temperature following the SC restart. I'm surprised we didn't hear Renault kicking up a fuss.

Yeah he didn't even get any kind of warning from the stewards for doing that, it seemed quite deliberate to cut a corner like that.

Yes I do remember that, too. A pretty poor race from Verstappen overall, when you consider how many infractions he had. And yet some have still voted him DotD...


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
His other piece of dodgy driving that seems to have been glossed over or just forgotten about was his cutting a corner early in the race to keep the Renault (Sainz?) behind. There was no visible mistake and it looked like he did it on purpose, most likely to give himself a gap while he got his tyres up to temperature following the SC restart. I'm surprised we didn't hear Renault kicking up a fuss.

Yeah he didn't even get any kind of warning from the stewards for doing that, it seemed quite deliberate to cut a corner like that.

Pretty sure I saw him lock up.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
His other piece of dodgy driving that seems to have been glossed over or just forgotten about was his cutting a corner early in the race to keep the Renault (Sainz?) behind. There was no visible mistake and it looked like he did it on purpose, most likely to give himself a gap while he got his tyres up to temperature following the SC restart. I'm surprised we didn't hear Renault kicking up a fuss.

Yeah he didn't even get any kind of warning from the stewards for doing that, it seemed quite deliberate to cut a corner like that.

Yes I do remember that, too. A pretty poor race from Verstappen overall, when you consider how many infractions he had. And yet some have still voted him DotD...

The other issue I noticed with Verstappen is that it to me was very unfair in the manner he gave the position back to Sainz. So first of all, Verstappen gains a massive advantage. Then, he gives the place back to Sainz on the longest striate of the year. Lifted off just enough for Sainz to just about get ahead then Instantly back on the power and used DRS to get back at him. It is quite Possible that if Verstappen had locked up and gone the usual way, that Sainz and Hulkenberg would have slippen past. But Verstappen didn't give Sainz a fair return at all. Anyway Sainz got him in the end anyway. But I am surprised Verstappen got away with that swapping of positions.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:59 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
His other piece of dodgy driving that seems to have been glossed over or just forgotten about was his cutting a corner early in the race to keep the Renault (Sainz?) behind. There was no visible mistake and it looked like he did it on purpose, most likely to give himself a gap while he got his tyres up to temperature following the SC restart. I'm surprised we didn't hear Renault kicking up a fuss.

Yeah he didn't even get any kind of warning from the stewards for doing that, it seemed quite deliberate to cut a corner like that.

Yes I do remember that, too. A pretty poor race from Verstappen overall, when you consider how many infractions he had. And yet some have still voted him DotD...

The other issue I noticed with Verstappen is that it to me was very unfair in the manner he gave the position back to Sainz. So first of all, Verstappen gains a massive advantage. Then, he gives the place back to Sainz on the longest striate of the year. Lifted off just enough for Sainz to just about get ahead then Instantly back on the power and used DRS to get back at him. It is quite Possible that if Verstappen had locked up and gone the usual way, that Sainz and Hulkenberg would have slippen past. But Verstappen didn't give Sainz a fair return at all. Anyway Sainz got him in the end anyway. But I am surprised Verstappen got away with that swapping of positions.

Did he even let Sainz past? I thought they were actually racing there? DRS was very powerful due to the headwind on the main straight and led to some big speed differentials which may have looked like he was letting him go.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:01 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
The other issue I noticed with Verstappen is that it to me was very unfair in the manner he gave the position back to Sainz. So first of all, Verstappen gains a massive advantage. Then, he gives the place back to Sainz on the longest striate of the year. Lifted off just enough for Sainz to just about get ahead then Instantly back on the power and used DRS to get back at him.


Yeah I noticed that too. Seemed very simular to the infamous Hamilton incident from the 2008 Spa GP, where after the race Hamilton was penalised by 20secs and a rule "clarification" was made to suggest that if you give a place back, you can't then retake for a corner or two? Nobody else seemed to care, including Sainz, so I guess it was somewhow different?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
The other issue I noticed with Verstappen is that it to me was very unfair in the manner he gave the position back to Sainz. So first of all, Verstappen gains a massive advantage. Then, he gives the place back to Sainz on the longest striate of the year. Lifted off just enough for Sainz to just about get ahead then Instantly back on the power and used DRS to get back at him.


Yeah I noticed that too. Seemed very simular to the infamous Hamilton incident from the 2008 Spa GP, where after the race Hamilton was penalised by 20secs and a rule "clarification" was made to suggest that if you give a place back, you can't then retake for a corner or two? Nobody else seemed to care, including Sainz, so I guess it was somewhow different?


He was ahead of Sainz when he went off. He didn't give the place back to Sainz because he didn't have to. He was a air chunk ahead when he cut the corner and gave all the time back and more. No driver has ever been penalised for anything remotely like that in the past. Sainz overtook he wasn't let through.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
His other piece of dodgy driving that seems to have been glossed over or just forgotten about was his cutting a corner early in the race to keep the Renault (Sainz?) behind. There was no visible mistake and it looked like he did it on purpose, most likely to give himself a gap while he got his tyres up to temperature following the SC restart. I'm surprised we didn't hear Renault kicking up a fuss.

Yeah he didn't even get any kind of warning from the stewards for doing that, it seemed quite deliberate to cut a corner like that.


Why would he? He gave back any advantage gained and more. No driver has ever been penalised for anything like that and it's something we do see drivers do quite often. Verstappen has committed enough crimes this season. You don't have to make them up.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Sainz overtook he wasn't let through.


Then there is no discussion to be had. The commentators said he had let Sainz past, but if that' not the case, then there is nothing to talk about.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:16 pm 
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The only thing different with Max is that he isn't getting away with it anymore. In the past he has made multiple defensive moves and has moved in the braking zones but he's gotten away with it as the trailing driver has been able to avoid the collision (often by going off track). This year, he is not avoiding the consequences of his driving. He is being made to feel those consequences. He picked up a puncture in attempting to run Hamilton off the road in Bahrain, picked up a collision and a penalty for his reckless dive against Vettel in China and he has crashed out for his dangerous defending in Baku. He isn't getting away with it anymore. I believe the racing gods have decreed that he can be allotted no more beginner's luck. Max will have to wrap his head around the inherent risks of his approach out there or consistent results will continue to evade him.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Max has been a very dangerous driver and YES men have been egging him on and lo and behold today he took both cars out, I remember the Kimi incident at Spa and folks defending him saying he was clever when Kimi took avoiding action, today no chance for Daniel to do that.

The points lost here serves Redbull right.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:42 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
The only thing different with Max is that he isn't getting away with it anymore. In the past he has made multiple defensive moves and has moved in the braking zones but he's gotten away with it as the trailing driver has been able to avoid the collision (often by going off track). This year, he is not avoiding the consequences of his driving. He is being made to feel those consequences. He picked up a puncture in attempting to run Hamilton off the road in Bahrain, picked up a collision and a penalty for his reckless dive against Vettel in China and he has crashed out for his dangerous defending in Baku. He isn't getting away with it anymore. I believe the racing gods have decreed that he can be allotted no more beginner's luck. Max will have to wrap his head around the inherent risks of his approach out there or consistent results will continue to evade him.


He may not be getting away with it but he is ruining other people's race as well. Hamilton got very lucky in Bahrain that his front wing did not come off. 9 out of 10 times, Hamilton is limping back to the pits after the first corner for a new front wing.

In China he caused Vetel WDC points and damaged his car meaning Vetel continued going backwards.

Over here I would argue Max's actions changed the result of the race, ruined Riciardo's race and cost Red Bull a chunk of point.

I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.

It was clear from the race yesterday that Max adopted a either crash or yield position to defending.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:20 am 
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BlackMist wrote:
I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.


To me, looking at reports of the stewards findings, they say " The stewards ruled that while Verstappen made "two moves" in front of Ricciardo and the "incident had its origins in the moves", they decided both were "relatively minor" on the Dutchman's part.

Ricciardo also "admitted he left his move to overtake on the left too late" and therefore the judging panel ruled his actions "also contributed to the incident".


To me this reads that while the stewards found Verstappen guilty of moving, Ricciardo, for all intents and purposes, went into bat for Verstappen saying he was partly to blame for the accident as well so the stewards decided to give him a slap too.

If that is the case, I wonder what compulsion there was for Ricciardo to say that and would have happened if he'd kept quiet.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:32 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.


To me, looking at reports of the stewards findings, they say " The stewards ruled that while Verstappen made "two moves" in front of Ricciardo and the "incident had its origins in the moves", they decided both were "relatively minor" on the Dutchman's part.

Ricciardo also "admitted he left his move to overtake on the left too late" and therefore the judging panel ruled his actions "also contributed to the incident".


To me this reads that while the stewards found Verstappen guilty of moving, Ricciardo, for all intents and purposes, went into bat for Verstappen saying he was partly to blame for the accident as well so the stewards decided to give him a slap too.

If that is the case, I wonder what compulsion there was for Ricciardo to say that and would have happened if he'd kept quiet.


This is where the FIA creates a problem for its self. What does 2 relatively minor moves mean? When does a move stops becoming relatively minor? There should not be such ambiguity in the rules.

I think the rules are NO moving twice. Minor or not is not relevant. What reprimand did Max get? He done it yesterday and has gotten away with it. He will do it again.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:43 am 
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BlackMist wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.


To me, looking at reports of the stewards findings, they say " The stewards ruled that while Verstappen made "two moves" in front of Ricciardo and the "incident had its origins in the moves", they decided both were "relatively minor" on the Dutchman's part.

Ricciardo also "admitted he left his move to overtake on the left too late" and therefore the judging panel ruled his actions "also contributed to the incident".


To me this reads that while the stewards found Verstappen guilty of moving, Ricciardo, for all intents and purposes, went into bat for Verstappen saying he was partly to blame for the accident as well so the stewards decided to give him a slap too.

If that is the case, I wonder what compulsion there was for Ricciardo to say that and would have happened if he'd kept quiet.


This is where the FIA creates a problem for its self. What does 2 relatively minor moves mean? When does a move stops becoming relatively minor? There should not be such ambiguity in the rules.

I think the rules are NO moving twice. Minor or not is not relevant. What reprimand did Max get? He done it yesterday and has gotten away with it. He will do it again.

Fully agree. There shouldn't be a "degree" of move that is acceptable or not. However minor, it had the effect of causing Ricciardo to attempt to change direction, when it was too late for him to do so


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:50 am 
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Zoue wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.


To me, looking at reports of the stewards findings, they say " The stewards ruled that while Verstappen made "two moves" in front of Ricciardo and the "incident had its origins in the moves", they decided both were "relatively minor" on the Dutchman's part.

Ricciardo also "admitted he left his move to overtake on the left too late" and therefore the judging panel ruled his actions "also contributed to the incident".


To me this reads that while the stewards found Verstappen guilty of moving, Ricciardo, for all intents and purposes, went into bat for Verstappen saying he was partly to blame for the accident as well so the stewards decided to give him a slap too.

If that is the case, I wonder what compulsion there was for Ricciardo to say that and would have happened if he'd kept quiet.


This is where the FIA creates a problem for its self. What does 2 relatively minor moves mean? When does a move stops becoming relatively minor? There should not be such ambiguity in the rules.

I think the rules are NO moving twice. Minor or not is not relevant. What reprimand did Max get? He done it yesterday and has gotten away with it. He will do it again.

Fully agree. There shouldn't be a "degree" of move that is acceptable or not. However minor, it had the effect of causing Ricciardo to attempt to change direction, when it was too late for him to do so


The lack of penalty to Max could be more due to the other driver being also at fault. And you have to find the other driver at fault when he tells you he is also at fault.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:59 am 
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iano wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.


To me, looking at reports of the stewards findings, they say " The stewards ruled that while Verstappen made "two moves" in front of Ricciardo and the "incident had its origins in the moves", they decided both were "relatively minor" on the Dutchman's part.

Ricciardo also "admitted he left his move to overtake on the left too late" and therefore the judging panel ruled his actions "also contributed to the incident".


To me this reads that while the stewards found Verstappen guilty of moving, Ricciardo, for all intents and purposes, went into bat for Verstappen saying he was partly to blame for the accident as well so the stewards decided to give him a slap too.

If that is the case, I wonder what compulsion there was for Ricciardo to say that and would have happened if he'd kept quiet.


This is where the FIA creates a problem for its self. What does 2 relatively minor moves mean? When does a move stops becoming relatively minor? There should not be such ambiguity in the rules.

I think the rules are NO moving twice. Minor or not is not relevant. What reprimand did Max get? He done it yesterday and has gotten away with it. He will do it again.

Fully agree. There shouldn't be a "degree" of move that is acceptable or not. However minor, it had the effect of causing Ricciardo to attempt to change direction, when it was too late for him to do so


The lack of penalty to Max could be more due to the other driver being also at fault. And you have to find the other driver at fault when he tells you he is also at fault.


This is what I was hinting at in my post above. Maybe a bit tin foil hat but I wonder how close Verstappen is to a race ban and was Ricciardo instructed to take some of the heat, or maybe he did it of his own volition, in order to mitigate the risk of Verstappen copping that ban.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:04 am 
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iano wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.


To me, looking at reports of the stewards findings, they say " The stewards ruled that while Verstappen made "two moves" in front of Ricciardo and the "incident had its origins in the moves", they decided both were "relatively minor" on the Dutchman's part.

Ricciardo also "admitted he left his move to overtake on the left too late" and therefore the judging panel ruled his actions "also contributed to the incident".


To me this reads that while the stewards found Verstappen guilty of moving, Ricciardo, for all intents and purposes, went into bat for Verstappen saying he was partly to blame for the accident as well so the stewards decided to give him a slap too.

If that is the case, I wonder what compulsion there was for Ricciardo to say that and would have happened if he'd kept quiet.


This is where the FIA creates a problem for its self. What does 2 relatively minor moves mean? When does a move stops becoming relatively minor? There should not be such ambiguity in the rules.

I think the rules are NO moving twice. Minor or not is not relevant. What reprimand did Max get? He done it yesterday and has gotten away with it. He will do it again.

Fully agree. There shouldn't be a "degree" of move that is acceptable or not. However minor, it had the effect of causing Ricciardo to attempt to change direction, when it was too late for him to do so


The lack of penalty to Max could be more due to the other driver being also at fault. And you have to find the other driver at fault when he tells you he is also at fault.

Not really, because they are two separate things. Drivers aren't allowed to defend with more than one move, which Max did, so that's a clear infraction. Ricciardo leaving an overtaking move too late may well have been an error (although I suspect there was some PR mitigation going on there), but there was no rule infraction. Therefore the only one able to be punished was Max


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:57 am 
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Zoue wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.


To me, looking at reports of the stewards findings, they say " The stewards ruled that while Verstappen made "two moves" in front of Ricciardo and the "incident had its origins in the moves", they decided both were "relatively minor" on the Dutchman's part.

Ricciardo also "admitted he left his move to overtake on the left too late" and therefore the judging panel ruled his actions "also contributed to the incident".


To me this reads that while the stewards found Verstappen guilty of moving, Ricciardo, for all intents and purposes, went into bat for Verstappen saying he was partly to blame for the accident as well so the stewards decided to give him a slap too.

If that is the case, I wonder what compulsion there was for Ricciardo to say that and would have happened if he'd kept quiet.


This is where the FIA creates a problem for its self. What does 2 relatively minor moves mean? When does a move stops becoming relatively minor? There should not be such ambiguity in the rules.

I think the rules are NO moving twice. Minor or not is not relevant. What reprimand did Max get? He done it yesterday and has gotten away with it. He will do it again.

Fully agree. There shouldn't be a "degree" of move that is acceptable or not. However minor, it had the effect of causing Ricciardo to attempt to change direction, when it was too late for him to do so

Spot on :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:23 am 
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The frequency of Max's incidents are getting crazy, but I'm surprised how hard Danny Ric fights this guy. Other drivers like Hamilton/Vettel take a very defensive approach. Hamilton almost moves out of Verstappen's way when he is anywhere near him - almost as if he thinks Max is a lighted stick of dynamite.

During the incident yesterday Max was always going to defend on the inside so surprised Daniel tried that. But yeah the weaving about on the straight by Max as they approached the braking zone was border-line. Added to that the Red Bull drivers were just fighting themselves for 4th and 5th place so the team could have stepped in at that point for them to help each other on the straight to get a tow to set fast laps. They could have probably traded places 4 or 5 times to give them both an opportunity to use the tow to close up on the front-runners. That tow was incredible yesterday and the Red Bull pair looked to be the only teammates that could have used it in a clever way.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:48 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Maybe a bit tin foil hat but I wonder how close Verstappen is to a race ban and was Ricciardo instructed to take some of the heat, or maybe he did it of his own volition, in order to mitigate the risk of Verstappen copping that ban.
I couldn't help but wonder about that myself. If so, it tells Riccardo everything he needs to know about where he stands in the team. In other words, Mercedes and Ferrari's chances of signing him massively improved, if that is indeed what Red Bull did.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:55 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Maybe a bit tin foil hat but I wonder how close Verstappen is to a race ban and was Ricciardo instructed to take some of the heat, or maybe he did it of his own volition, in order to mitigate the risk of Verstappen copping that ban.
I couldn't help but wonder about that myself. If so, it tells Riccardo everything he needs to know about where he stands in the team. In other words, Mercedes and Ferrari's chances of signing him massively improved, if that is indeed what Red Bull did.


Then why would Ricciardo comply? I don't think he would risk lying to the stewards to help a team mate who just took him out and a team he was leaving who considered him second best.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:56 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Maybe a bit tin foil hat but I wonder how close Verstappen is to a race ban and was Ricciardo instructed to take some of the heat, or maybe he did it of his own volition, in order to mitigate the risk of Verstappen copping that ban.
I couldn't help but wonder about that myself. If so, it tells Riccardo everything he needs to know about where he stands in the team. In other words, Mercedes and Ferrari's chances of signing him massively improved, if that is indeed what Red Bull did.


Then why would Ricciardo comply? I don't think he would risk lying to the stewards to help a team mate who just took him out and a team he was leaving who considered him second best.

To extend the theory, maybe he was just hedging his bets while he still hasn't signed for another team? No point burning the bridge before you've safely crossed


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:59 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Maybe a bit tin foil hat but I wonder how close Verstappen is to a race ban and was Ricciardo instructed to take some of the heat, or maybe he did it of his own volition, in order to mitigate the risk of Verstappen copping that ban.
I couldn't help but wonder about that myself. If so, it tells Riccardo everything he needs to know about where he stands in the team. In other words, Mercedes and Ferrari's chances of signing him massively improved, if that is indeed what Red Bull did.


Then why would Ricciardo comply? I don't think he would risk lying to the stewards to help a team mate who just took him out and a team he was leaving who considered him second best.

To extend the theory, maybe he was just hedging his bets while he still hasn't signed for another team? No point burning the bridge before you've safely crossed


Maybe or perhaps he's not lying to the stewards? I think if Fiki really believed Ricciardo was lying to the stewards then he would be criticising him harshly.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Maybe a bit tin foil hat but I wonder how close Verstappen is to a race ban and was Ricciardo instructed to take some of the heat, or maybe he did it of his own volition, in order to mitigate the risk of Verstappen copping that ban.
I couldn't help but wonder about that myself. If so, it tells Riccardo everything he needs to know about where he stands in the team. In other words, Mercedes and Ferrari's chances of signing him massively improved, if that is indeed what Red Bull did.


Then why would Ricciardo comply? I don't think he would risk lying to the stewards to help a team mate who just took him out and a team he was leaving who considered him second best.

To extend the theory, maybe he was just hedging his bets while he still hasn't signed for another team? No point burning the bridge before you've safely crossed


Also remember almost immediately Marko was saying they were both to blame for the accident.

When a team boss tells you, perhaps firmly, that you're partly to blame for an accident i'm guessing it makes it kinda awkward to go to the stewards and say you believe you did nothing wrong especially if you're in the final year of your contract with apparently no offers on the table other than that of the team you currently drive for and your star team mate, whom the team have gone on record as saying they want to build a team around him, is currently copping all kinds of heat for his erratic driving style.

I smell a hint of 2010 vintage Turkey roasting here.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:10 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Maybe a bit tin foil hat but I wonder how close Verstappen is to a race ban and was Ricciardo instructed to take some of the heat, or maybe he did it of his own volition, in order to mitigate the risk of Verstappen copping that ban.
I couldn't help but wonder about that myself. If so, it tells Riccardo everything he needs to know about where he stands in the team. In other words, Mercedes and Ferrari's chances of signing him massively improved, if that is indeed what Red Bull did.


Then why would Ricciardo comply? I don't think he would risk lying to the stewards to help a team mate who just took him out and a team he was leaving who considered him second best.

To extend the theory, maybe he was just hedging his bets while he still hasn't signed for another team? No point burning the bridge before you've safely crossed


Maybe or perhaps he's not lying to the stewards? I think if Fiki really believed Ricciardo was lying to the stewards then he would be criticising him harshly.

Both are possible. I'm just saying the theory above isn't improbable


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
His other piece of dodgy driving that seems to have been glossed over or just forgotten about was his cutting a corner early in the race to keep the Renault (Sainz?) behind. There was no visible mistake and it looked like he did it on purpose, most likely to give himself a gap while he got his tyres up to temperature following the SC restart. I'm surprised we didn't hear Renault kicking up a fuss.

Yeah he didn't even get any kind of warning from the stewards for doing that, it seemed quite deliberate to cut a corner like that.

Pretty sure I saw him lock up.

He did but I've never seen that make a driver cut a corner normally you overshoot the corner and go wide.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lojik wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
The other issue I noticed with Verstappen is that it to me was very unfair in the manner he gave the position back to Sainz. So first of all, Verstappen gains a massive advantage. Then, he gives the place back to Sainz on the longest striate of the year. Lifted off just enough for Sainz to just about get ahead then Instantly back on the power and used DRS to get back at him.


Yeah I noticed that too. Seemed very simular to the infamous Hamilton incident from the 2008 Spa GP, where after the race Hamilton was penalised by 20secs and a rule "clarification" was made to suggest that if you give a place back, you can't then retake for a corner or two? Nobody else seemed to care, including Sainz, so I guess it was somewhow different?


He was ahead of Sainz when he went off. He didn't give the place back to Sainz because he didn't have to. He was a air chunk ahead when he cut the corner and gave all the time back and more. No driver has ever been penalised for anything remotely like that in the past. Sainz overtook he wasn't let through.

Drivers don't get penalised but are not allowed to do that repeatedly even if they are in front.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.


To me, looking at reports of the stewards findings, they say " The stewards ruled that while Verstappen made "two moves" in front of Ricciardo and the "incident had its origins in the moves", they decided both were "relatively minor" on the Dutchman's part.

Ricciardo also "admitted he left his move to overtake on the left too late" and therefore the judging panel ruled his actions "also contributed to the incident".


To me this reads that while the stewards found Verstappen guilty of moving, Ricciardo, for all intents and purposes, went into bat for Verstappen saying he was partly to blame for the accident as well so the stewards decided to give him a slap too.

If that is the case, I wonder what compulsion there was for Ricciardo to say that and would have happened if he'd kept quiet.

Clearly Ricciardo was told to say that so Verstappen would not get a grid penalty for the next race.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:19 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.


To me, looking at reports of the stewards findings, they say " The stewards ruled that while Verstappen made "two moves" in front of Ricciardo and the "incident had its origins in the moves", they decided both were "relatively minor" on the Dutchman's part.

Ricciardo also "admitted he left his move to overtake on the left too late" and therefore the judging panel ruled his actions "also contributed to the incident".


To me this reads that while the stewards found Verstappen guilty of moving, Ricciardo, for all intents and purposes, went into bat for Verstappen saying he was partly to blame for the accident as well so the stewards decided to give him a slap too.

If that is the case, I wonder what compulsion there was for Ricciardo to say that and would have happened if he'd kept quiet.


This is where the FIA creates a problem for its self. What does 2 relatively minor moves mean? When does a move stops becoming relatively minor? There should not be such ambiguity in the rules.

I think the rules are NO moving twice. Minor or not is not relevant. What reprimand did Max get? He done it yesterday and has gotten away with it. He will do it again.

Fully agree. There shouldn't be a "degree" of move that is acceptable or not. However minor, it had the effect of causing Ricciardo to attempt to change direction, when it was too late for him to do so


The second move was enough for Dan to have nowhere to go, and as Anthony Davidson said, because of this second move he lost all downforce and therefore hit Max as he simply couldnt brake.

I reckon he'd have made the corner, and Dan has been ordered to shoulder some of the blame from Horner.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:24 pm 
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BlackMist wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The only thing different with Max is that he isn't getting away with it anymore. In the past he has made multiple defensive moves and has moved in the braking zones but he's gotten away with it as the trailing driver has been able to avoid the collision (often by going off track). This year, he is not avoiding the consequences of his driving. He is being made to feel those consequences. He picked up a puncture in attempting to run Hamilton off the road in Bahrain, picked up a collision and a penalty for his reckless dive against Vettel in China and he has crashed out for his dangerous defending in Baku. He isn't getting away with it anymore. I believe the racing gods have decreed that he can be allotted no more beginner's luck. Max will have to wrap his head around the inherent risks of his approach out there or consistent results will continue to evade him.


He may not be getting away with it but he is ruining other people's race as well. Hamilton got very lucky in Bahrain that his front wing did not come off. 9 out of 10 times, Hamilton is limping back to the pits after the first corner for a new front wing.

In China he caused Vetel WDC points and damaged his car meaning Vetel continued going backwards.

Over here I would argue Max's actions changed the result of the race, ruined Riciardo's race and cost Red Bull a chunk of point.

I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.

It was clear from the race yesterday that Max adopted a either crash or yield position to defending.
Which is why Horner needs to control his drivers next time, because Daniel has a crash or yield policy on attacking.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.


To me, looking at reports of the stewards findings, they say " The stewards ruled that while Verstappen made "two moves" in front of Ricciardo and the "incident had its origins in the moves", they decided both were "relatively minor" on the Dutchman's part.

Ricciardo also "admitted he left his move to overtake on the left too late" and therefore the judging panel ruled his actions "also contributed to the incident".


To me this reads that while the stewards found Verstappen guilty of moving, Ricciardo, for all intents and purposes, went into bat for Verstappen saying he was partly to blame for the accident as well so the stewards decided to give him a slap too.

If that is the case, I wonder what compulsion there was for Ricciardo to say that and would have happened if he'd kept quiet.

Clearly Ricciardo was told to say that so Verstappen would not get a grid penalty for the next race.


You could very well be correct. And that does mean Ricciardo was lying if he was told to say it. He could also believe there is some truth in him playing a part. To some extent, there is alway some complicity for both drivers.

Driver1: "Why did you hit me, I was simply following the car in front under safety car!"
Driver2: "It is your fault too...if you were not there I would not have hit you!"


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Altair wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The only thing different with Max is that he isn't getting away with it anymore. In the past he has made multiple defensive moves and has moved in the braking zones but he's gotten away with it as the trailing driver has been able to avoid the collision (often by going off track). This year, he is not avoiding the consequences of his driving. He is being made to feel those consequences. He picked up a puncture in attempting to run Hamilton off the road in Bahrain, picked up a collision and a penalty for his reckless dive against Vettel in China and he has crashed out for his dangerous defending in Baku. He isn't getting away with it anymore. I believe the racing gods have decreed that he can be allotted no more beginner's luck. Max will have to wrap his head around the inherent risks of his approach out there or consistent results will continue to evade him.


He may not be getting away with it but he is ruining other people's race as well. Hamilton got very lucky in Bahrain that his front wing did not come off. 9 out of 10 times, Hamilton is limping back to the pits after the first corner for a new front wing.

In China he caused Vetel WDC points and damaged his car meaning Vetel continued going backwards.

Over here I would argue Max's actions changed the result of the race, ruined Riciardo's race and cost Red Bull a chunk of point.

I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.

It was clear from the race yesterday that Max adopted a either crash or yield position to defending.
Which is why Horner needs to control his drivers next time, because Daniel has a crash or yield policy on attacking.


Nah no need to, let them carry on in no time in the constructors championship they will end up behind Renault and Mclaren.

Also in a way it keeps the championship alive as without Max creating carnage Vettel will be really far ahead in the championship.


Last edited by Rockie on Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:38 pm 
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iano wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
BlackMist wrote:
I was surprised to read that Both Riciardo and Max has been reprimanded. I don't quite see what Riciardo's done wrong. I was expecting a very stern warning at the very least with a suspended race ban.


To me, looking at reports of the stewards findings, they say " The stewards ruled that while Verstappen made "two moves" in front of Ricciardo and the "incident had its origins in the moves", they decided both were "relatively minor" on the Dutchman's part.

Ricciardo also "admitted he left his move to overtake on the left too late" and therefore the judging panel ruled his actions "also contributed to the incident".


To me this reads that while the stewards found Verstappen guilty of moving, Ricciardo, for all intents and purposes, went into bat for Verstappen saying he was partly to blame for the accident as well so the stewards decided to give him a slap too.

If that is the case, I wonder what compulsion there was for Ricciardo to say that and would have happened if he'd kept quiet.

Clearly Ricciardo was told to say that so Verstappen would not get a grid penalty for the next race.


You could very well be correct. And that does mean Ricciardo was lying if he was told to say it. He could also believe there is some truth in him playing a part. To some extent, there is alway some complicity for both drivers.

Driver1: "Why did you hit me, I was simply following the car in front under safety car!"
Driver2: "It is your fault too...if you were not there I would not have hit you!"


Maybe Daniel played a "relatively minor" role in the incident.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:57 pm 
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still dont understand why so many are completely blaming verstappen. yes you can argue he was moving around but he and many others have done the same many times, and its wasnt much movement really. also look at it again. at no point was ric completely outside of the line of max' car. he didnt go far enough outside or inside he was just throwing a semi dummy which was half arsed. therefore even if max hadnt moved back he was braking on a dirty shallow entry and max' left rear would have been an obstacle still. he may have gone further to the inside but as it was dirty with marbles etc he probably would have taken them both out at the apex. he even said he braked too late. yes he may have lost downforce as max moved across which contributed to the lock up, but i still think he just braked too late against a driver he should have known would be pushing the limits of defending.

now having said that i am no fan of max, have critisised him in the past and think he is too aggressive. it will cost him dearly if he doesnt change. he has to accept a part of the blame for this one but i dont think its the worst thing he has done by a long shot. magnussen was far worse.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
still dont understand why so many are completely blaming verstappen. yes you can argue he was moving around but he and many others have done the same many times, and its wasnt much movement really. also look at it again. at no point was ric completely outside of the line of max' car. he didnt go far enough outside or inside he was just throwing a semi dummy which was half arsed. therefore even if max hadnt moved back he was braking on a dirty shallow entry and max' left rear would have been an obstacle still. he may have gone further to the inside but as it was dirty with marbles etc he probably would have taken them both out at the apex. he even said he braked too late. yes he may have lost downforce as max moved across which contributed to the lock up, but i still think he just braked too late against a driver he should have known would be pushing the limits of defending.

now having said that i am no fan of max, have critisised him in the past and think he is too aggressive. it will cost him dearly if he doesnt change. he has to accept a part of the blame for this one but i dont think its the worst thing he has done by a long shot. magnussen was far worse.


Hard to do when the guy in front is moving I guess?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:52 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
still dont understand why so many are completely blaming verstappen. yes you can argue he was moving around but he and many others have done the same many times, and its wasnt much movement really. also look at it again. at no point was ric completely outside of the line of max' car. he didnt go far enough outside or inside he was just throwing a semi dummy which was half arsed. therefore even if max hadnt moved back he was braking on a dirty shallow entry and max' left rear would have been an obstacle still. he may have gone further to the inside but as it was dirty with marbles etc he probably would have taken them both out at the apex. he even said he braked too late. yes he may have lost downforce as max moved across which contributed to the lock up, but i still think he just braked too late against a driver he should have known would be pushing the limits of defending.

now having said that i am no fan of max, have critisised him in the past and think he is too aggressive. it will cost him dearly if he doesnt change. he has to accept a part of the blame for this one but i dont think its the worst thing he has done by a long shot. magnussen was far worse.


Hard to do when the guy in front is moving I guess?
Plus, there are no rules as to how "arsed" a dummy has to be. Max defended right, then defended left. He bought the dummy, and ended up getting "full-arsed".

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