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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:38 pm 
pokerman wrote:
Vettel not happy with the SC

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13541 ... -not-right

Does this mean that Vettel would have pitted given the chance, this then would beg the question why wasn't Kimi pitted?


I agree with him, it took at least an entire lap to deploy, at least 90 seconds and then they deployed it literally as Bottas came around the last corner. Very fishy and it opened up the WDC again, call me a cynic... Just look at Baku last year, Vettel got a drive through as soon as Hamilton's headrest came loose. They took about 10 laps to give him that drive through.

Vettel no doubt would have pitted, it would have been almost entirely free pit stop. If nobody else pitted he would be 4th still. If they all had time to react, I am guessing they all would have pitted with maybe one of them attempting to stay out, take the lead and hold on - possibly Hamilton since he was 4th and going to be 4th if everyone pitted. The lead 2, if they pitted would have come out ahead of Kimi and Ricciardo if those 2 stayed out.


Last edited by lamo on Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
The drivers don't know who is behind and running at what pace, on what compound and what aged tyre. They don't know who is 1 or 2 stopping. Who had stopped yet and who hasn't. Where he comes out if he pits.. what is the pit stop delta pitting under a SC... so many variables the driver does not know. So its down to the team. The drivers are clueless to make a split decision on this.

The team didn't even tell him he had two Red Bulls behind him on new softs, he had to ask "am I right in thinking the cars behind me all have new tyres?" that was literally just before the restart and the team hadn't informed him he was going to be attacked.

Yeah they sort of didn't want to tell him, a team that can't make a decision on the fly, I think this we thought it a better decision to stay out is just a cover for we didn't know what to do.


Just seen that Hamilton didn't have any fresh tyres left.

It's not the excuse Wolff gave though he said they thought it best to have track position.


With the situation of Hamilton not having the fresh tyres of the Red Bull pair. It may well have been still better to pit but it would make the decision less cut and dry.


It was the best decision, the problem is it would have taken a common sense decision from a human and not 1 lap for the computer to decide what's best to do. Made me laugh even Damon Hill was talking about teams making all their decisions through computers.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:40 pm 
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That is funny! Karun Chandhok on Channel 4 said Red Bull will probably be 1 - 2 if Verstappen doesn't spin off again! Haha. That was on lap 43 he said it (before the 2nd spin). So he thought Verstappen wouldn't be patient enough. How right he was.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:47 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel not happy with the SC

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13541 ... -not-right

Does this mean that Vettel would have pitted given the chance, this then would beg the question why wasn't Kimi pitted?


I agree with him, it took at least an entire lap to deploy, at least 90 seconds and then they deployed it literally as Bottas came around the last corner. Very fishy and it opened up the WDC again, call me a cynic...

Vettel no doubt would have pitted, it would have been almost entirely free pit stop. If nobody else pitted he would be 4th still. If they all had time to react, I am guessing they all would have pitted with maybe one of them attempting to stay out, take the lead and hold on - possibly Hamilton since he was 4th and going to be 4th if everyone pitted. The lead 2, if they pitted would have come out ahead of Kimi and Ricciardo if those 2 stayed out.

Now you see what I don't like about this is that he doesn't speak out when it doesn't affect him, he even brings up that the same thing happened to Rosberg in Hungary 2014 but at the time were was his call to say that was unfair and let's not get me started with the VSC in Australia.

Simple rules could be put in place to stop drivers being disadvantaged but for some reason the F1 stewards don't want to do it, they are happy with some win, some lose and clearly can influence the result.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:47 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Something rather amusing someone has pointed out on F1 fanatic.

Ferrari's junior team Hass had an issue causing safety car in Australia resulting in a Mercedes win turned into a Ferrari win.
Red Bulls junior team Toro Rosso had an issue causing safety car in China resulting in a Mercedes win turned into a Red Bull win.

These junior teams are super helpful to them!


No, not really but quite a strange coincidence.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:24 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel not happy with the SC

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13541 ... -not-right

Does this mean that Vettel would have pitted given the chance, this then would beg the question why wasn't Kimi pitted?


I agree with him, it took at least an entire lap to deploy, at least 90 seconds and then they deployed it literally as Bottas came around the last corner. Very fishy and it opened up the WDC again, call me a cynic... Just look at Baku last year, Vettel got a drive through as soon as Hamilton's headrest came loose. They took about 10 laps to give him that drive through.

Vettel no doubt would have pitted, it would have been almost entirely free pit stop. If nobody else pitted he would be 4th still. If they all had time to react, I am guessing they all would have pitted with maybe one of them attempting to stay out, take the lead and hold on - possibly Hamilton since he was 4th and going to be 4th if everyone pitted. The lead 2, if they pitted would have come out ahead of Kimi and Ricciardo if those 2 stayed out.

Honestly there has been a lot of fishiness with regards to safety cars this year. I always see the potential conspiracy in things so don't mind me but I can't help but notice that it was a Toro Rosso that created this safety car period which basically saved Red Bull's race. Likewise it was the Haas team that created the safety car for Ferrari in Australian (took them two attempts to get that VSC but they got it).

It also took about 3 laps of the safety car before they swept that debris off the road! What the @#*% were they doing!? The whole thing was dodgy. There was no reason the safety car couldn't have been timed such that all of the front runners would have had an opportunity to pit. The way it actually played out, Bottas and Vettel got screwed. Hamilton's strategy people caught napping again here though as he very much could have taken advantage of the SC but didn't for some reason. They basically could have had him ahead of Daniel on the same tires.

The safety car now has the ability to determine the outcome of races and it's not too hard to predictably manipulate that. This is especially true if you have two teams to play with. Poor Flavio. This would be his golden age if he weren't banned from the sport.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:27 pm 
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The safety car should not be taking the position of any cars in to account when coming out. If it is decided it is needed it should be released then and there.

Honestly we've had the safety car for 24 years. This is nothing new!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:29 pm 
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big thumbs up to the red bull garage. they said during the race renault gave them a partial pu and red bull had to scavenge parts to put it together and get it in the car. 2 minutes to spair before qually. gave dr a chance

max needs a major rethink of how he goes about business


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:37 pm 
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The safety car is deployed for the sake of safety. Whether or how it might affect the race shouldn't be considered. Once it was determined that the body work left on the track by the STR's coming together was a hazard it was deployed without thought about how it might impact anybody's race for good or for ill. And that is as it should be.

It's not like they're throwing random competition yellows like NASCAR trying to close up the field.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:29 pm 
mikeyg123 wrote:
The safety car should not be taking the position of any cars in to account when coming out. If it is decided it is needed it should be released then and there.

Honestly we've had the safety car for 24 years. This is nothing new!


It is new, you would continue at racing speeds until you made the pits or met the SC under the old one which reduced your chances to get screwed or opportunities to manipulate a race. Mid 2015 on wards and the VSC is a whole new ball game.

Today there clearly wasn't any imminent danger, they spent over 100 seconds deciding to deploy it or not. Then deployed it when literally 2 seconds after Vettel passed the pit entry allowing Verstappen who was only 5 seconds behind Vettel to be the first one to jump in.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:48 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The safety car should not be taking the position of any cars in to account when coming out. If it is decided it is needed it should be released then and there.

Honestly we've had the safety car for 24 years. This is nothing new!


It is new, you would continue at racing speeds until you made the pits or met the SC under the old one which reduced your chances to get screwed or opportunities to manipulate a race. Mid 2015 on wards and the VSC is a whole new ball game.

Today there clearly wasn't any imminent danger, they spent over 100 seconds deciding to deploy it or not. Then deployed it when literally 2 seconds after Vettel passed the pit entry allowing Verstappen who was only 5 seconds behind Vettel to be the first one to jump in.


But even before 2015 the situation today would have been the same. Bottas was picked up straight away by the safety car. So being able to race back round wouldn't have applied in this case.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:10 pm 
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The safety car should not be taking the position of any cars in to account when coming out. If it is decided it is needed it should be released then and there.

Honestly we've had the safety car for 24 years. This is nothing new!


It is new, you would continue at racing speeds until you made the pits or met the SC under the old one which reduced your chances to get screwed or opportunities to manipulate a race. Mid 2015 on wards and the VSC is a whole new ball game.

Today there clearly wasn't any imminent danger, they spent over 100 seconds deciding to deploy it or not. Then deployed it when literally 2 seconds after Vettel passed the pit entry allowing Verstappen who was only 5 seconds behind Vettel to be the first one to jump in.


But even before 2015 the situation today would have been the same. Bottas was picked up straight away by the safety car. So being able to race back round wouldn't have applied in this case.


You are right, although under the old system Bottas would have stood a better chance of beating it as he would have been at race speed down the start finish line.

Today's was deployed conveniently in that small window between when the leader has passed the pit entry and not the pit exit. It was a 97 second lap. Its about 6-7 seconds per lap window when this can occur. Hence my cynicism of why it took 100 seconds to deploy and it was deployed within a window of about 5 seconds to perfectly screw Bottas and Vettel.

If the SC had been deployed 5 seconds earlier, those two would have had time to pit. If it was deployed 5 seconds later, they would have been past the pit exit and been able to pit after cruising around at VSC speeds and maintained there lead.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:23 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The safety car should not be taking the position of any cars in to account when coming out. If it is decided it is needed it should be released then and there.

Honestly we've had the safety car for 24 years. This is nothing new!


It is new, you would continue at racing speeds until you made the pits or met the SC under the old one which reduced your chances to get screwed or opportunities to manipulate a race. Mid 2015 on wards and the VSC is a whole new ball game.

Today there clearly wasn't any imminent danger, they spent over 100 seconds deciding to deploy it or not. Then deployed it when literally 2 seconds after Vettel passed the pit entry allowing Verstappen who was only 5 seconds behind Vettel to be the first one to jump in.


But even before 2015 the situation today would have been the same. Bottas was picked up straight away by the safety car. So being able to race back round wouldn't have applied in this case.


You are right, although under the old system Bottas would have stood a better chance of beating it as he would have been at race speed down the start finish line.

Today's was deployed conveniently in that small window between when the leader has passed the pit entry and not the pit exit. It was a 97 second lap. Its about 6-7 seconds per lap window when this can occur. Hence my cynicism of why it took 100 seconds to deploy and it was deployed within a window of about 5 seconds to perfectly screw Bottas and Vettel.

If the SC had been deployed 5 seconds earlier, those two would have had time to pit. If it was deployed 5 seconds later, they would have been past the pit exit and been able to pit after cruising around at VSC speeds and maintained there lead.


Yes but if a decision was taken to hold the safety car wouldn't that be equally as corrupt. It doesn't really sit well with me.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:50 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
How is this guy still in F1 seriously? What a moron.

Ocon?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:51 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel not happy with the SC

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13541 ... -not-right

Does this mean that Vettel would have pitted given the chance, this then would beg the question why wasn't Kimi pitted?


I agree with him, it took at least an entire lap to deploy, at least 90 seconds and then they deployed it literally as Bottas came around the last corner. Very fishy and it opened up the WDC again, call me a cynic... Just look at Baku last year, Vettel got a drive through as soon as Hamilton's headrest came loose. They took about 10 laps to give him that drive through.

Vettel no doubt would have pitted, it would have been almost entirely free pit stop. If nobody else pitted he would be 4th still. If they all had time to react, I am guessing they all would have pitted with maybe one of them attempting to stay out, take the lead and hold on - possibly Hamilton since he was 4th and going to be 4th if everyone pitted. The lead 2, if they pitted would have come out ahead of Kimi and Ricciardo if those 2 stayed out.

Imagine the uproar had it been Hamilton in Bottas´place.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:23 pm 
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Grosjean is being destroyed by Magnussen this season. Don´t think anyone considers Kevin a top driver so might we see Grosjean being replaced if this trend continues, or is he contracted for next year?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The safety car should not be taking the position of any cars in to account when coming out. If it is decided it is needed it should be released then and there.

Honestly we've had the safety car for 24 years. This is nothing new!


++++

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:26 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Grosjean is being destroyed by Magnussen this season. Don´t think anyone considers Kevin a top driver so might we see Grosjean being replaced if this trend continues, or is he contracted for next year?

Haas was supposed to be an outside shot at Grossjean ending up as Vettel's teammate at Ferrari. Now, as you suggest, his constant whinging and his failure to beat Magnussen makes it more likely that he will end up racing sports cars.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Grosjean is being destroyed by Magnussen this season. Don´t think anyone considers Kevin a top driver so might we see Grosjean being replaced if this trend continues, or is he contracted for next year?


IMO, Magnussen is an excellent driver when he uses his potential. As a rookie he performed well against Button and on his good days, he was faster.

So far, his major weakness was that he did not manage to put in his high-level performances consistently throughout a season. He always had strings of races where he was off. If he can avoid this, he will be a very competitive F1 driver.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:06 am 
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pc27b wrote:
big thumbs up to the red bull garage. they said during the race renault gave them a partial pu and red bull had to scavenge parts to put it together and get it in the car. 2 minutes to spair before qually. gave dr a chance

max needs a major rethink of how he goes about business

It was quite scandalous by Renault.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:13 am 
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Covalent wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel not happy with the SC

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13541 ... -not-right

Does this mean that Vettel would have pitted given the chance, this then would beg the question why wasn't Kimi pitted?


I agree with him, it took at least an entire lap to deploy, at least 90 seconds and then they deployed it literally as Bottas came around the last corner. Very fishy and it opened up the WDC again, call me a cynic... Just look at Baku last year, Vettel got a drive through as soon as Hamilton's headrest came loose. They took about 10 laps to give him that drive through.

Vettel no doubt would have pitted, it would have been almost entirely free pit stop. If nobody else pitted he would be 4th still. If they all had time to react, I am guessing they all would have pitted with maybe one of them attempting to stay out, take the lead and hold on - possibly Hamilton since he was 4th and going to be 4th if everyone pitted. The lead 2, if they pitted would have come out ahead of Kimi and Ricciardo if those 2 stayed out.

Imagine the uproar had it been Hamilton in Bottas´place.

You know what's strange is that had it been Hamilton making it 2 wins taken away from him out of the opening 3 races by the SC just about everyone would have been happy with that, why all of a sudden is this happening and when did it become perfectly alright, it's just not racing for me.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:16 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Grosjean is being destroyed by Magnussen this season. Don´t think anyone considers Kevin a top driver so might we see Grosjean being replaced if this trend continues, or is he contracted for next year?

He can't cope with the car's understeer, I remember at the beginning of the 2013 season when he was getting destroyed by Kimi because of the car, he seems to be a bit limited and needs things to be au pair with the car.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:13 am 
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Some conclusions:

- Mercedes is complaining that they are now third, but their car never finished bellow 2 place. They are the favorites.
- Ferrari, this time timing messed them, they could not do anything.
- RBR, give them fresh tyres and they win. Maybe that's what the race director thought. Not really, I think he jus made a mistake.
- All the other teams are having no chance to touch these 3. HAAS&STR had one offs. That's it. They might have one more excellent performances, at it might also include Mclaren, Renault, even Force India. Perhaps. Renault is pushing up, but reaching top 3 is, at the moment, impossibility.

- If Hamilton does not win anytime soon, he will start thinking of retirement. He does not enjoy in the moment. And he got beaten twice by the Bottas.
- Bottas who was so much boo'd lasdt race was very very good, and may I say, might surprise in the WDC.
- Vettel was again great and graceful in defeat, with error not of his own. Good trace of character.
- Kimi, excellent in qualy, somehow always looses in the race.
- Ricciardo was shining, like the sun in the UK. He does it rare, but then, it's a glow.
- Verstappen will learn. He is too huge a talent to continue this way.
- Alonso can give up hopes of podiums, let alone victories. That chop on Vettel was unnecessary.
- Hulk with 6th was overshadowed by the dynamics of the race in is in my book a real star of the race, along with Bottas and Ricciardo.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:28 am 
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The safety car should not be taking the position of any cars in to account when coming out. If it is decided it is needed it should be released then and there.

Honestly we've had the safety car for 24 years. This is nothing new!


It is new, you would continue at racing speeds until you made the pits or met the SC under the old one which reduced your chances to get screwed or opportunities to manipulate a race. Mid 2015 on wards and the VSC is a whole new ball game.

Today there clearly wasn't any imminent danger, they spent over 100 seconds deciding to deploy it or not. Then deployed it when literally 2 seconds after Vettel passed the pit entry allowing Verstappen who was only 5 seconds behind Vettel to be the first one to jump in.


But even before 2015 the situation today would have been the same. Bottas was picked up straight away by the safety car. So being able to race back round wouldn't have applied in this case.


You are right, although under the old system Bottas would have stood a better chance of beating it as he would have been at race speed down the start finish line.

Today's was deployed conveniently in that small window between when the leader has passed the pit entry and not the pit exit. It was a 97 second lap. Its about 6-7 seconds per lap window when this can occur. Hence my cynicism of why it took 100 seconds to deploy and it was deployed within a window of about 5 seconds to perfectly screw Bottas and Vettel.

If the SC had been deployed 5 seconds earlier, those two would have had time to pit. If it was deployed 5 seconds later, they would have been past the pit exit and been able to pit after cruising around at VSC speeds and maintained there lead.


Yes but if a decision was taken to hold the safety car wouldn't that be equally as corrupt. It doesn't really sit well with me.


I agree with you in general, if the track is in danger then deploy it asap.

But in this specific circumstances, they had waited 90 seconds already, it clearly wasn’t an imminent danger. The race organisers are not immune to fixing races if an opportunity arises to keep a championship close and that is from a Hamilton fan who gained from this decision yesterday. When it deployed, Vettel was sitting on 1st,1st and attempting to overtake Bottas for his 3rd win and was going to leave with a 30-35 point WDC lead...

These current rules allow for both teams and the organisers to play with results. That’s 2 out of 3 races completely decided by it thus far this year. The season has been a lottery. I am moving more toward closing the pit lane or some kind of rule to close this up.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:32 am 
Covalent wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel not happy with the SC

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13541 ... -not-right

Does this mean that Vettel would have pitted given the chance, this then would beg the question why wasn't Kimi pitted?


I agree with him, it took at least an entire lap to deploy, at least 90 seconds and then they deployed it literally as Bottas came around the last corner. Very fishy and it opened up the WDC again, call me a cynic... Just look at Baku last year, Vettel got a drive through as soon as Hamilton's headrest came loose. They took about 10 laps to give him that drive through.

Vettel no doubt would have pitted, it would have been almost entirely free pit stop. If nobody else pitted he would be 4th still. If they all had time to react, I am guessing they all would have pitted with maybe one of them attempting to stay out, take the lead and hold on - possibly Hamilton since he was 4th and going to be 4th if everyone pitted. The lead 2, if they pitted would have come out ahead of Kimi and Ricciardo if those 2 stayed out.

Imagine the uproar had it been Hamilton in Bottas´place.


In WDC terms, Vettel was the only loser. Bottas actually came out closer to the WDC lead due to that SC shake up, although he lost a win, his title chances improved and gained 7 more points on Vettel than if he won with Vettel 2nd.

I am sure there is the German equivalent of me or some German F1 forum raving about this very decision. :lol:
Although to be fair, Vettel has broke about even off the SC this year. Jumped from 3rd to 1st in Australia and 2nd down to 8th in China.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:35 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Some conclusions:

- Mercedes is complaining that they are now third, but their car never finished bellow 2 place. They are the favorites.
- Ferrari, this time timing messed them, they could not do anything.
- RBR, give them fresh tyres and they win. Maybe that's what the race director thought. Not really, I think he jus made a mistake.
- All the other teams are having no chance to touch these 3. HAAS&STR had one offs. That's it. They might have one more excellent performances, at it might also include Mclaren, Renault, even Force India. Perhaps. Renault is pushing up, but reaching top 3 is, at the moment, impossibility.

- If Hamilton does not win anytime soon, he will start thinking of retirement. He does not enjoy in the moment. And he got beaten twice by the Bottas.
- Bottas who was so much boo'd lasdt race was very very good, and may I say, might surprise in the WDC.
- Vettel was again great and graceful in defeat, with error not of his own. Good trace of character.
- Kimi, excellent in qualy, somehow always looses in the race.
- Ricciardo was shining, like the sun in the UK. He does it rare, but then, it's a glow.
- Verstappen will learn. He is too huge a talent to continue this way.
- Alonso can give up hopes of podiums, let alone victories. That chop on Vettel was unnecessary.
- Hulk with 6th was overshadowed by the dynamics of the race in is in my book a real star of the race, along with Bottas and Ricciardo.

BIB: I think Ferrari also messed up with their pit stops. First, when they gave Vettel a slow one (and he lost a lot of time himself on his in- and out-laps), which gave away a comfortable lead; and second, when they failed to pit Kimi from no-man's land after the SC came out. On both occasions the team contributed to their failure to get a decent result today.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:01 am 
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I haven't watched the race, just the quick highlights of the race, so I have a question for people who watched it properly. Did Alonso force Vettel out of track near the end?

The highlights didn't show much, but Alonso didn't get penalised so I am not sure if he did something wrong (thought one doesn't mean the other).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:06 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
I haven't watched the race, just the quick highlights of the race, so I have a question for people who watched it properly. Did Alonso force Vettel out of track near the end?

The highlights didn't show much, but Alonso didn't get penalised so I am not sure if he did something wrong (thought one doesn't mean the other).

he did. He left Vettel with nowhere to go. I've never quite understood why but Alonso has never liked Vettel and I think that showed yesterday!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:08 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
I haven't watched the race, just the quick highlights of the race, so I have a question for people who watched it properly. Did Alonso force Vettel out of track near the end?

The highlights didn't show much, but Alonso didn't get penalised so I am not sure if he did something wrong (thought one doesn't mean the other).

He didn't give Vettel any room, but he was already sufficiently past and on the racing line so he didn't have to. At least I believe that was the conclusion of the stewards.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:17 am 
wolfticket wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I haven't watched the race, just the quick highlights of the race, so I have a question for people who watched it properly. Did Alonso force Vettel out of track near the end?

The highlights didn't show much, but Alonso didn't get penalised so I am not sure if he did something wrong (thought one doesn't mean the other).

He didn't give Vettel any room, but he was already sufficiently past and on the racing line so he didn't have to. At least I believe that was the conclusion of the stewards.


Its a tricky one, crowding out on corner exit is generally accepted as ok. If there wasn't another corner immediately after, then Alonso's move would have been fine with what has become standard ruling. However, in this instance the exit of the corner was the entry for the next one, so technically he pushed him off on entry which is not acceptable.

But then again, we had this rule clarification in 2017 that wheel to wheel battles wouldn't be penalised so heavily. So I am not sure where we stand exactly these days.

Vettel got a 5 second penalty for pushing Massa off at Silverstone 2016 for example. Although he wasn't completely under control of his car and this was under the stricter rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHO0bztn_m0


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:18 am 
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lamo wrote:
Covalent wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel not happy with the SC

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13541 ... -not-right

Does this mean that Vettel would have pitted given the chance, this then would beg the question why wasn't Kimi pitted?


I agree with him, it took at least an entire lap to deploy, at least 90 seconds and then they deployed it literally as Bottas came around the last corner. Very fishy and it opened up the WDC again, call me a cynic... Just look at Baku last year, Vettel got a drive through as soon as Hamilton's headrest came loose. They took about 10 laps to give him that drive through.

Vettel no doubt would have pitted, it would have been almost entirely free pit stop. If nobody else pitted he would be 4th still. If they all had time to react, I am guessing they all would have pitted with maybe one of them attempting to stay out, take the lead and hold on - possibly Hamilton since he was 4th and going to be 4th if everyone pitted. The lead 2, if they pitted would have come out ahead of Kimi and Ricciardo if those 2 stayed out.

Imagine the uproar had it been Hamilton in Bottas´place.


In WDC terms, Vettel was the only loser. Bottas actually came out closer to the WDC lead due to that SC shake up, although he lost a win, his title chances improved and gained 7 more points on Vettel than if he won with Vettel 2nd.

I am sure there is the German equivalent of me or some German F1 forum raving about this very decision. :lol:
Although to be fair, Vettel has broke about even off the SC this year. Jumped from 3rd to 1st in Australia and 2nd down to 8th in China.

Vettel lost out more because of Max than the safety car. Had Verstappen kept his nose clean Seb probably finishes 4th ahead of Hamilton and extending his WDC lead a tiny bit more.

So you can say that the safety car provided the circumstance that allowed Max to be pushing his way through at that point of the race, but it wasn't what actually pushed all the way down to 8th.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:38 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I haven't watched the race, just the quick highlights of the race, so I have a question for people who watched it properly. Did Alonso force Vettel out of track near the end?

The highlights didn't show much, but Alonso didn't get penalised so I am not sure if he did something wrong (thought one doesn't mean the other).

he did. He left Vettel with nowhere to go. I've never quite understood why but Alonso has never liked Vettel and I think that showed yesterday!


Thanks Zoue, I also get the feeling that they are not the best pals for some reason, no idea why.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:39 am 
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lamo wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I haven't watched the race, just the quick highlights of the race, so I have a question for people who watched it properly. Did Alonso force Vettel out of track near the end?

The highlights didn't show much, but Alonso didn't get penalised so I am not sure if he did something wrong (thought one doesn't mean the other).

He didn't give Vettel any room, but he was already sufficiently past and on the racing line so he didn't have to. At least I believe that was the conclusion of the stewards.


Its a tricky one, crowding out on corner exit is generally accepted as ok. If there wasn't another corner immediately after, then Alonso's move would have been fine with what has become standard ruling. However, in this instance the exit of the corner was the entry for the next one, so technically he pushed him off on entry which is not acceptable.

But then again, we had this rule clarification in 2017 that wheel to wheel battles wouldn't be penalised so heavily. So I am not sure where we stand exactly these days.

Vettel got a 5 second penalty for pushing Massa off at Silverstone 2016 for example. Although he wasn't completely under control of his car and this was under the stricter rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHO0bztn_m0


Thanks both, my eyes didn't play tricks to me then. A bit naughty from Alonso


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:12 am 
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lamo wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I haven't watched the race, just the quick highlights of the race, so I have a question for people who watched it properly. Did Alonso force Vettel out of track near the end?

The highlights didn't show much, but Alonso didn't get penalised so I am not sure if he did something wrong (thought one doesn't mean the other).

He didn't give Vettel any room, but he was already sufficiently past and on the racing line so he didn't have to. At least I believe that was the conclusion of the stewards.


Its a tricky one, crowding out on corner exit is generally accepted as ok. If there wasn't another corner immediately after, then Alonso's move would have been fine with what has become standard ruling. However, in this instance the exit of the corner was the entry for the next one, so technically he pushed him off on entry which is not acceptable.

But then again, we had this rule clarification in 2017 that wheel to wheel battles wouldn't be penalised so heavily. So I am not sure where we stand exactly these days.

Vettel got a 5 second penalty for pushing Massa off at Silverstone 2016 for example. Although he wasn't completely under control of his car and this was under the stricter rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHO0bztn_m0


It's still classed as on exit which is why it's ok as long as you were ahead at the apex of the first you can choose your line into the next. Same as Monza T1-2 (Max vs Massa last year) and it would be the same at Malaysia T1-2 but I can't think of an example for that 1-2 tbf.

I assume because they can't class it solely as on exit or on entrance they just let it slide but all the drivers know now they can get away with it and Seb's done it to Alonso in Brazil 2016 so a bit of payback was due I think.

Not that either need an excuse to be harsh with each other, they clearly don't get on.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:35 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:50 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Some conclusions:

- Mercedes is complaining that they are now third, but their car never finished bellow 2 place. They are the favorites.
- Ferrari, this time timing messed them, they could not do anything.
- RBR, give them fresh tyres and they win. Maybe that's what the race director thought. Not really, I think he jus made a mistake.
- All the other teams are having no chance to touch these 3. HAAS&STR had one offs. That's it. They might have one more excellent performances, at it might also include Mclaren, Renault, even Force India. Perhaps. Renault is pushing up, but reaching top 3 is, at the moment, impossibility.

- If Hamilton does not win anytime soon, he will start thinking of retirement. He does not enjoy in the moment. And he got beaten twice by the Bottas.
- Bottas who was so much boo'd lasdt race was very very good, and may I say, might surprise in the WDC.
- Vettel was again great and graceful in defeat, with error not of his own. Good trace of character.
- Kimi, excellent in qualy, somehow always looses in the race.
- Ricciardo was shining, like the sun in the UK. He does it rare, but then, it's a glow.
- Verstappen will learn. He is too huge a talent to continue this way.
- Alonso can give up hopes of podiums, let alone victories. That chop on Vettel was unnecessary.
- Hulk with 6th was overshadowed by the dynamics of the race in is in my book a real star of the race, along with Bottas and Ricciardo.

BIB: I think Ferrari also messed up with their pit stops. First, when they gave Vettel a slow one (and he lost a lot of time himself on his in- and out-laps), which gave away a comfortable lead; and second, when they failed to pit Kimi from no-man's land after the SC came out. On both occasions the team contributed to their failure to get a decent result today.

I agree, it also played a part in their catastrophe.

Man, I miss those old times, when pitting was only because you need to pit, not because you must. Like GP Britain 1983, when again Ferrari's were in the first row, thy finished 3 and 5, but not because of strategy, pit stop tyres, ets, but because they were overtaken in the race.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:02 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Some conclusions:

- Mercedes is complaining that they are now third, but their car never finished bellow 2 place. They are the favorites.
- Ferrari, this time timing messed them, they could not do anything.
- RBR, give them fresh tyres and they win. Maybe that's what the race director thought. Not really, I think he jus made a mistake.
- All the other teams are having no chance to touch these 3. HAAS&STR had one offs. That's it. They might have one more excellent performances, at it might also include Mclaren, Renault, even Force India. Perhaps. Renault is pushing up, but reaching top 3 is, at the moment, impossibility.

- If Hamilton does not win anytime soon, he will start thinking of retirement. He does not enjoy in the moment. And he got beaten twice by the Bottas.
- Bottas who was so much boo'd lasdt race was very very good, and may I say, might surprise in the WDC.
- Vettel was again great and graceful in defeat, with error not of his own. Good trace of character.
- Kimi, excellent in qualy, somehow always looses in the race.
- Ricciardo was shining, like the sun in the UK. He does it rare, but then, it's a glow.
- Verstappen will learn. He is too huge a talent to continue this way.
- Alonso can give up hopes of podiums, let alone victories. That chop on Vettel was unnecessary.
- Hulk with 6th was overshadowed by the dynamics of the race in is in my book a real star of the race, along with Bottas and Ricciardo.

A bit unfair to say that Bottas beat Hamilton in Bahrain after Hamilton's 5 place grid penalty.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:11 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
It is new, you would continue at racing speeds until you made the pits or met the SC under the old one which reduced your chances to get screwed or opportunities to manipulate a race. Mid 2015 on wards and the VSC is a whole new ball game.

Today there clearly wasn't any imminent danger, they spent over 100 seconds deciding to deploy it or not. Then deployed it when literally 2 seconds after Vettel passed the pit entry allowing Verstappen who was only 5 seconds behind Vettel to be the first one to jump in.


But even before 2015 the situation today would have been the same. Bottas was picked up straight away by the safety car. So being able to race back round wouldn't have applied in this case.


You are right, although under the old system Bottas would have stood a better chance of beating it as he would have been at race speed down the start finish line.

Today's was deployed conveniently in that small window between when the leader has passed the pit entry and not the pit exit. It was a 97 second lap. Its about 6-7 seconds per lap window when this can occur. Hence my cynicism of why it took 100 seconds to deploy and it was deployed within a window of about 5 seconds to perfectly screw Bottas and Vettel.

If the SC had been deployed 5 seconds earlier, those two would have had time to pit. If it was deployed 5 seconds later, they would have been past the pit exit and been able to pit after cruising around at VSC speeds and maintained there lead.


Yes but if a decision was taken to hold the safety car wouldn't that be equally as corrupt. It doesn't really sit well with me.


I agree with you in general, if the track is in danger then deploy it asap.

But in this specific circumstances, they had waited 90 seconds already, it clearly wasn’t an imminent danger. The race organisers are not immune to fixing races if an opportunity arises to keep a championship close and that is from a Hamilton fan who gained from this decision yesterday. When it deployed, Vettel was sitting on 1st,1st and attempting to overtake Bottas for his 3rd win and was going to leave with a 30-35 point WDC lead...

These current rules allow for both teams and the organisers to play with results. That’s 2 out of 3 races completely decided by it thus far this year. The season has been a lottery. I am moving more toward closing the pit lane or some kind of rule to close this up.

Yeah after Australia I ventured is this the beginning of lottery races and thus far it's looking that way.

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