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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:01 pm 
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Llotyhy wrote:
Why would Renault hire Alonso exactly? They have said on multiple occasions they're happy with their current drivers and want to keep them.

I'm sure they are happy with them at the moment but their long term goal is to win races and titles, will tier 2 drivers suffice then?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Interesting.

Sky just reporting that if Ricciardo leaves, RB will bring in Gasly, not Sainz.


Which is utter bollocks. If they do that then they need two new drivers for Toro Rosso, and considering they haven't been able to replace Hartley where exactly are they going to find two new drivers?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Interesting.

Sky just reporting that if Ricciardo leaves, RB will bring in Gasly, not Sainz.


Which is utter bollocks. If they do that then they need two new drivers for Toro Rosso, and considering they haven't been able to replace Hartley where exactly are they going to find two new drivers?


Maybe with their YDP looking a tad bare for talent they might just tell TR to go find their own drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:08 pm 
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Llotyhy wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Marca are saying Alonso will continue in F1 at either McLaren or Renault.

Yeah I've heard that, Renault are a team on the up and are a works team, Alonso also won both his titles with Renault, I think they are best placed to be the 4th best team in F1, I think I would go with Renault more than McLaren although he would have to kiss his other adventures goodbye for the time being.


He can't as far as WEC's concerned, he signed on for the "Super Season" which runs until after next years Lemans so that could put Renault off.

That being the case the his only choice seems to be McLaren then?

However I wouldn't hang on to things that Alonso says, I think he likes to be in the news, just when it's looking like he's going to Indycar he puts it out there that he's staying in F1 to keep people second guessing him.

In respect to F1 he says there are seats still available at Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull as if he himself might be in contention for them even though most people know that's not the case and then factor in like you say his commitment to Toyota next year which no top team would countenance anyway.


As I've said on a few occasions, I don't think anyone wants to have Alonso on their team, apart from McLaren (maybe). To me it sounds like the usual Alonso nonsense where he wants to give the impression that he is the one deciding what he wants to do with his career and keeping his options open, while in reality he has none.

Yep

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:09 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Interesting.

Sky just reporting that if Ricciardo leaves, RB will bring in Gasly, not Sainz.

Yeah they actually repeated something that I mooted months ago that Verstappen and Sainz don't like each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Interesting.

Sky just reporting that if Ricciardo leaves, RB will bring in Gasly, not Sainz.


Which is utter bollocks. If they do that then they need two new drivers for Toro Rosso, and considering they haven't been able to replace Hartley where exactly are they going to find two new drivers?

One of either Vanddorne or Norris might be available for starters.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:48 pm 
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Dutch TV reporting strong rumours around the paddock that Ricciardo re-signed with Red Bull


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
If McLaren are keeping Alonso they need someone strong-willed beside him, as it is the car is heavily designed to suit Alonso's driving style which no other driver can cope with. Lewis was strong enough to have non of it, Vandoorne is not.


Says who?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Marca are saying Alonso will continue in F1 at either McLaren or Renault.

Yeah I've heard that, Renault are a team on the up and are a works team, Alonso also won both his titles with Renault, I think they are best placed to be the 4th best team in F1, I think I would go with Renault more than McLaren although he would have to kiss his other adventures goodbye for the time being.


He can't as far as WEC's concerned, he signed on for the "Super Season" which runs until after next years Lemans so that could put Renault off.

That being the case the his only choice seems to be McLaren then?

However I wouldn't hang on to things that Alonso says, I think he likes to be in the news, just when it's looking like he's going to Indycar he puts it out there that he's staying in F1 to keep people second guessing him.

In respect to F1 he says there are seats still available at Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull as if he himself might be in contention for them even though most people know that's not the case and then factor in like you say his commitment to Toyota next year which no top team would countenance anyway.


I think so anyway. A year too early competitiveness wise and WEC commitment wise for Renault imo so McLaren or Indy.

No-one should just listen to what any driver says, they are all ego driven prima donnas, he's no different apart from being one of a handful who can back it up performance wise of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
If McLaren are keeping Alonso they need someone strong-willed beside him, as it is the car is heavily designed to suit Alonso's driving style which no other driver can cope with. Lewis was strong enough to have non of it, Vandoorne is not.


Says who?

Me, what you bolded is paddock rumour I picked up on during our quali broadcast.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
If McLaren are keeping Alonso they need someone strong-willed beside him, as it is the car is heavily designed to suit Alonso's driving style which no other driver can cope with. Lewis was strong enough to have non of it, Vandoorne is not.


Says who?

Me, what you bolded is paddock rumour I picked up on during our quali broadcast.


Finnish broadcast? It's a Kimi fan rumour to explain away 2014 despite Kimi staying at that poor level across many different designs in the following years.

Designers design cars to go as quick as possible. No designer, who's job is on the line, is going to design a car to a particular drivers strengths to the detriment of car performance. If designing the car to be the quickest it can be makes the car undriveable for other drivers then they need to get better at driving.

JB never mentioned it, Massa, Lewis in 2007 who initially suffered when Alonso stopped setting the car up, no-one else apart from Kimi fans in 2014 and the whole pull rod push rod excuses/nonsense have mentioned Alonso setting up or getting the designers to create undriveable cars for everyone but him. It's as dumb as it sounds.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
If McLaren are keeping Alonso they need someone strong-willed beside him, as it is the car is heavily designed to suit Alonso's driving style which no other driver can cope with. Lewis was strong enough to have non of it, Vandoorne is not.


Says who?

Me, what you bolded is paddock rumour I picked up on during our quali broadcast.


Finnish broadcast? It's a Kimi fan rumour to explain away 2014 despite Kimi staying at that poor level across many different designs in the following years.

Designers design cars to go as quick as possible. No designer, who's job is on the line, is going to design a car to a particular drivers strengths to the detriment of car performance. If designing the car to be the quickest it can be makes the car undriveable for other drivers then they need to get better at driving.

JB never mentioned it, Massa, Lewis in 2007 who initially suffered when Alonso stopped setting the car up, no-one else apart from Kimi fans in 2014 and the whole pull rod push rod excuses/nonsense have mentioned Alonso setting up or getting the designers to create undriveable cars for everyone but him. It's as dumb as it sounds.

Already last year Vandoorne was telling us how he´s trying to get the car more suited to his driving style, is it not also common knowledge that Alonso´s style is unique? We all know the strength of his character and the politics he´s involved in so I don´t know what nerve I hit there.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:02 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
If McLaren are keeping Alonso they need someone strong-willed beside him, as it is the car is heavily designed to suit Alonso's driving style which no other driver can cope with. Lewis was strong enough to have non of it, Vandoorne is not.


Says who?

Me, what you bolded is paddock rumour I picked up on during our quali broadcast.


Finnish broadcast? It's a Kimi fan rumour to explain away 2014 despite Kimi staying at that poor level across many different designs in the following years.

Designers design cars to go as quick as possible. No designer, who's job is on the line, is going to design a car to a particular drivers strengths to the detriment of car performance. If designing the car to be the quickest it can be makes the car undriveable for other drivers then they need to get better at driving.

JB never mentioned it, Massa, Lewis in 2007 who initially suffered when Alonso stopped setting the car up, no-one else apart from Kimi fans in 2014 and the whole pull rod push rod excuses/nonsense have mentioned Alonso setting up or getting the designers to create undriveable cars for everyone but him. It's as dumb as it sounds.

Already last year Vandoorne was telling us how he´s trying to get the car more suited to his driving style, is it not also common knowledge that Alonso´s style is unique? We all know the strength of his character and the politics he´s involved in so I don´t know what nerve I hit there.


Stoff also talked about having a positive feeling in the car during testing which doesn't sound like he thinks it's undriveable. He was just talking about spending more time with Prod too so I don't know what you mean about not being strong enough. What did Lewis stop that Vandoorne didn't?

His style was unique on Michelins but he changed it for the switch to Bridgestones, I honestly don't know if he has a particularly unique style now. Even so it doesn't matter as the designers aren't going to listen to him if its detrimental to car performance. And if his way is the quickest way and his team mate can't extract it then that's on them.

So it was Finnish TV then,right? It's a Kimi pull rod related nerve tbh, I have a low tolerance for such obvious manure made up to explain away issues in 2014 but which somehow remains despite 4 further years of the same rubbish form for that driver, across both pull and push rod, 2 different tyre structures and 2 different car regulations.

Meanwhile Alonso's using push rods now at McLaren but is still somehow doing it. Seems he can create an undriveable car for any team mate whatever the car or suspension. Or he's just better of course and has a far wider working window than most drivers like seemingly everyone, including Stoff, keeps telling us.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:23 pm 
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Lewis and Bottas's 2 year deals will get announced at Silverstone I think. Dan's 2 year deal with Red Bull announced sometime this week. Monza for Leclerc's 2yr deal to Ferrari.

Everyone out of contract at the end of 2020 so that will be an epic one. Next year's not so much, might be the dullest in history.

McLaren situation whenever Alonso makes his mind up or they score a podium (Apparently that's the trigger for Alonso's 1+1 deal on their side or certain performance marks they're unlikely to hit anyway).

Renault's 2nd seat situation either after Red Bull decide what's happening with Sainz or after Alonso decides what he's doing.

Kimi to retire.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:37 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Lewis and Bottas's 2 year deals will get announced at Silverstone I think. Dan's 2 year deal with Red Bull announced sometime this week. Monza for Leclerc's 2yr deal to Ferrari.

Everyone out of contract at the end of 2020 so that will be an epic one. Next year's not so much, might be the dullest in history.

McLaren situation whenever Alonso makes his mind up or they score a podium (Apparently that's the trigger for Alonso's 1+1 deal on their side or certain performance marks they're unlikely to hit anyway).

Renault's 2nd seat situation either after Red Bull decide what's happening with Sainz or after Alonso decides what he's doing.

Kimi to retire.

BIB: with my tinfoil hat on, Kimi retiring may be a reason why Ferrari didn't tell him to move over for Seb. There's no incentive for him to compromise his races if he won't be around anyway


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Lewis and Bottas's 2 year deals will get announced at Silverstone I think. Dan's 2 year deal with Red Bull announced sometime this week. Monza for Leclerc's 2yr deal to Ferrari.

Everyone out of contract at the end of 2020 so that will be an epic one. Next year's not so much, might be the dullest in history.

McLaren situation whenever Alonso makes his mind up or they score a podium (Apparently that's the trigger for Alonso's 1+1 deal on their side or certain performance marks they're unlikely to hit anyway).

Renault's 2nd seat situation either after Red Bull decide what's happening with Sainz or after Alonso decides what he's doing.

Kimi to retire.

BIB: with my tinfoil hat on, Kimi retiring may be a reason why Ferrari didn't tell him to move over for Seb. There's no incentive for him to compromise his races if he won't be around anyway


Could be.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:57 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Lewis and Bottas's 2 year deals will get announced at Silverstone I think. Dan's 2 year deal with Red Bull announced sometime this week. Monza for Leclerc's 2yr deal to Ferrari.

Everyone out of contract at the end of 2020 so that will be an epic one. Next year's not so much, might be the dullest in history.

McLaren situation whenever Alonso makes his mind up or they score a podium (Apparently that's the trigger for Alonso's 1+1 deal on their side or certain performance marks they're unlikely to hit anyway).

Renault's 2nd seat situation either after Red Bull decide what's happening with Sainz or after Alonso decides what he's doing.

Kimi to retire.

BIB: with my tinfoil hat on, Kimi retiring may be a reason why Ferrari didn't tell him to move over for Seb. There's no incentive for him to compromise his races if he won't be around anyway

Surely that's all the more reason to. Why bother to keep up an equal treatment front if he's leaving anyway, may as well go all in with the team orders.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Lewis and Bottas's 2 year deals will get announced at Silverstone I think. Dan's 2 year deal with Red Bull announced sometime this week. Monza for Leclerc's 2yr deal to Ferrari.

Everyone out of contract at the end of 2020 so that will be an epic one. Next year's not so much, might be the dullest in history.

McLaren situation whenever Alonso makes his mind up or they score a podium (Apparently that's the trigger for Alonso's 1+1 deal on their side or certain performance marks they're unlikely to hit anyway).

Renault's 2nd seat situation either after Red Bull decide what's happening with Sainz or after Alonso decides what he's doing.

Kimi to retire.

BIB: with my tinfoil hat on, Kimi retiring may be a reason why Ferrari didn't tell him to move over for Seb. There's no incentive for him to compromise his races if he won't be around anyway


Kimi would just move over if asked. Think they did to one out of respect and for some reason I think Vettel wouldn't want to hear of it either this time.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:27 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Already last year Vandoorne was telling us how he´s trying to get the car more suited to his driving style, is it not also common knowledge that Alonso´s style is unique? We all know the strength of his character and the politics he´s involved in so I don´t know what nerve I hit there.

It was common knowledge way back in 2006, when people used to talk about how he turned into the corner in a different way to anyone else. Twelve years later, I think it's pretty clear he just adapts his style to whatever the car needs, and that's what was the fastest way in those title-winning Renaults.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Lewis and Bottas's 2 year deals will get announced at Silverstone I think. Dan's 2 year deal with Red Bull announced sometime this week. Monza for Leclerc's 2yr deal to Ferrari.

Everyone out of contract at the end of 2020 so that will be an epic one. Next year's not so much, might be the dullest in history.

McLaren situation whenever Alonso makes his mind up or they score a podium (Apparently that's the trigger for Alonso's 1+1 deal on their side or certain performance marks they're unlikely to hit anyway).

Renault's 2nd seat situation either after Red Bull decide what's happening with Sainz or after Alonso decides what he's doing.

Kimi to retire.

That all seems to be what's mooted and on the money, so much for Alonso's multi-year contract and commitment to McLaren, I knew it would have performance clauses. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Lewis and Bottas's 2 year deals will get announced at Silverstone I think. Dan's 2 year deal with Red Bull announced sometime this week. Monza for Leclerc's 2yr deal to Ferrari.

Everyone out of contract at the end of 2020 so that will be an epic one. Next year's not so much, might be the dullest in history.

McLaren situation whenever Alonso makes his mind up or they score a podium (Apparently that's the trigger for Alonso's 1+1 deal on their side or certain performance marks they're unlikely to hit anyway).

Renault's 2nd seat situation either after Red Bull decide what's happening with Sainz or after Alonso decides what he's doing.

Kimi to retire.

BIB: with my tinfoil hat on, Kimi retiring may be a reason why Ferrari didn't tell him to move over for Seb. There's no incentive for him to compromise his races if he won't be around anyway

I like to think they would have done that anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:22 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Lewis and Bottas's 2 year deals will get announced at Silverstone I think. Dan's 2 year deal with Red Bull announced sometime this week. Monza for Leclerc's 2yr deal to Ferrari.

Everyone out of contract at the end of 2020 so that will be an epic one. Next year's not so much, might be the dullest in history.

McLaren situation whenever Alonso makes his mind up or they score a podium (Apparently that's the trigger for Alonso's 1+1 deal on their side or certain performance marks they're unlikely to hit anyway).

Renault's 2nd seat situation either after Red Bull decide what's happening with Sainz or after Alonso decides what he's doing.

Kimi to retire.

BIB: with my tinfoil hat on, Kimi retiring may be a reason why Ferrari didn't tell him to move over for Seb. There's no incentive for him to compromise his races if he won't be around anyway


I was pleasantly surprised today when Kimi showed no signs of pulling over to let Seb by. I figured they would try to get Max till one or one half lap to go and then let Vettel up into second if that didn't work. Ferrari was not always so averse to team orders. Of course you can say that about most teams contended for the championship at one time or another.

P.S. From skysports:
"Sebastian Vettel said Ferrari were right not to impose team orders in Sunday’s Austrian Grand Prix even if it meant he ended up with a slimmer overall lead than would otherwise have been the case.

Vettel finished third, behind Finnish team mate Kimi Raikkonen, to oust Mercedes rival Lewis Hamilton from the top of the Formula One standings by a single point.

Ferrari also returned to the top of the constructors’ standings.

Had Raikkonen ceded position, at a track famous for a 2002 race that saw Ferrari’s Brazilian Rubens Barrichello ordered to let team mate Michael Schumacher win, Vettel would have left Austria with a four-point lead."


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:30 am 
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Ricciardo’s bargaining power has halved after this drive from Verstappen today.

It’s becoming increasingly obvious that Max is consistently the faster driver when he doesn’t crash out.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:35 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo’s bargaining power has halved after this drive from Verstappen today.

It’s becoming increasingly obvious that Max is consistently the faster driver when he doesn’t crash out.

Has it? The first one, that is. Max isn't on the market, so how does his relative pace affect Ricciardo's bargaining power?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:16 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo’s bargaining power has halved after this drive from Verstappen today.

It’s becoming increasingly obvious that Max is consistently the faster driver when he doesn’t crash out.


Yeah, I don’t get how a Red Bull breaking its exhaust system devalues Ricciardo in any sense.
IMO the bolded is the reason Danny Ric should be valued higher than Max at this stage


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:33 am 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo’s bargaining power has halved after this drive from Verstappen today.

It’s becoming increasingly obvious that Max is consistently the faster driver when he doesn’t crash out.


Yeah, I don’t get how a Red Bull breaking its exhaust system devalues Ricciardo in any sense.
IMO the bolded is the reason Danny Ric should be valued higher than Max at this stage


At this stage, Max has 3 podiums from 3 races, including a win - or 4 podiums from 5 races.
Think he's getting his head back in the proper place.

Edit: I do agree that this doesn't change much for Ricciardo's options. Ferrari and Mercedes were and remain closed (imo), he'll just sign for RBR again if he hasn't already.

Edit 2: if I had to pick something of this weekend that would have reduced his bargaining power, however, it's his behavior during qualifying.

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Last edited by mds on Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:33 am 
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Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo’s bargaining power has halved after this drive from Verstappen today.

It’s becoming increasingly obvious that Max is consistently the faster driver when he doesn’t crash out.

Has it? The first one, that is. Max isn't on the market, so how does his relative pace affect Ricciardo's bargaining power?


I'm not saying I agree with this logic, but the logic would be -
RBR have the faster of the 2 drivers tied up
The slower of the 2 drivers doesn't have any other options for a fast car
Because they have the faster tied up, they don't NEED that 2nd driver tied down and won't lose out massively if he joined a rival in the future
They could replace him with a cheaper version and take that risk, because they already have the faster guy


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:21 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Already last year Vandoorne was telling us how he´s trying to get the car more suited to his driving style, is it not also common knowledge that Alonso´s style is unique? We all know the strength of his character and the politics he´s involved in so I don´t know what nerve I hit there.

It was common knowledge way back in 2006, when people used to talk about how he turned into the corner in a different way to anyone else. Twelve years later, I think it's pretty clear he just adapts his style to whatever the car needs, and that's what was the fastest way in those title-winning Renaults.

Fair enough, could well be.

Lotus49 wrote:

Stoff also talked about having a positive feeling in the car during testing which doesn't sound like he thinks it's undriveable. He was just talking about spending more time with Prod too so I don't know what you mean about not being strong enough. What did Lewis stop that Vandoorne didn't?

His style was unique on Michelins but he changed it for the switch to Bridgestones, I honestly don't know if he has a particularly unique style now. Even so it doesn't matter as the designers aren't going to listen to him if its detrimental to car performance. And if his way is the quickest way and his team mate can't extract it then that's on them.

So it was Finnish TV then,right? It's a Kimi pull rod related nerve tbh, I have a low tolerance for such obvious manure made up to explain away issues in 2014 but which somehow remains despite 4 further years of the same rubbish form for that driver, across both pull and push rod, 2 different tyre structures and 2 different car regulations.

Meanwhile Alonso's using push rods now at McLaren but is still somehow doing it. Seems he can create an undriveable car for any team mate whatever the car or suspension. Or he's just better of course and has a far wider working window than most drivers like seemingly everyone, including Stoff, keeps telling us.

Yeah I have no interesting in continuing discussing with you when you can't seem to tone it down.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:26 am 
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Ennis wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo’s bargaining power has halved after this drive from Verstappen today.

It’s becoming increasingly obvious that Max is consistently the faster driver when he doesn’t crash out.

Has it? The first one, that is. Max isn't on the market, so how does his relative pace affect Ricciardo's bargaining power?


I'm not saying I agree with this logic, but the logic would be -
RBR have the faster of the 2 drivers tied up
The slower of the 2 drivers doesn't have any other options for a fast car
Because they have the faster tied up, they don't NEED that 2nd driver tied down and won't lose out massively if he joined a rival in the future
They could replace him with a cheaper version and take that risk, because they already have the faster guy


Personally, I don't think either side is in a particularly strong negotiating position (which is partly why I think they'll end up continuing together into at least 2019).

Red Bull are taking a bit of a risk by switching to Honda, who despite whatever progress they've made in 2018, have yet to show they can get it right. Whether or not remaining with Renault would've been a better option is difficult to say because, honestly, I don't think anybody really knows. And we won't know until the start of 2019. And while they could let Ricciardo walk and replace him with Sainz or Gasly, the former has a little history with Max and the latter would benefit from staying with Toro Rosso. They could break from tradition and go out and sign Alonso if they really, really wanted to, but that's very, very (very!) unlikely. Ricciardo/Verstappen has generally been a good partnership and Ricciardo is realistically the best driver they can have alongside Verstappen, so it is in their interest to keep him and Daniel will know that.

Meanwhile for Ricciardo, he hasn't really got any better options. He could hold out and hope that a seat at Mercedes or Ferrari becomes available, but it seems like both would simply promote from within if they're going to make a change. It makes sense, too: Ocon or Leclerc are going to be cheaper, you'd assume both would be more willing to play a support role, are both younger, and in both cases would open up a seat for the next driver in their development system (Giovinazzi at Sauber and, potentially, Russell at Force India). That leaves Renault as his best option if he leaves Red Bull, and there is no guarantee they'll be any better than fourth fastest next year. So staying where he is makes sense, and Red Bull know that.

In other words, both sides could decide to ditch the other (and if they get lucky then it could look like a stroke of genius) but realistically, both are better off together.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Lewis and Bottas's 2 year deals will get announced at Silverstone I think. Dan's 2 year deal with Red Bull announced sometime this week. Monza for Leclerc's 2yr deal to Ferrari.

Everyone out of contract at the end of 2020 so that will be an epic one. Next year's not so much, might be the dullest in history.

McLaren situation whenever Alonso makes his mind up or they score a podium (Apparently that's the trigger for Alonso's 1+1 deal on their side or certain performance marks they're unlikely to hit anyway).

Renault's 2nd seat situation either after Red Bull decide what's happening with Sainz or after Alonso decides what he's doing.

Kimi to retire.

BIB: with my tinfoil hat on, Kimi retiring may be a reason why Ferrari didn't tell him to move over for Seb. There's no incentive for him to compromise his races if he won't be around anyway

I like to think they would have done that anyway.

yeah probably, it was just a tongue in cheek observation


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Lewis and Bottas's 2 year deals will get announced at Silverstone I think. Dan's 2 year deal with Red Bull announced sometime this week. Monza for Leclerc's 2yr deal to Ferrari.

Everyone out of contract at the end of 2020 so that will be an epic one. Next year's not so much, might be the dullest in history.

McLaren situation whenever Alonso makes his mind up or they score a podium (Apparently that's the trigger for Alonso's 1+1 deal on their side or certain performance marks they're unlikely to hit anyway).

Renault's 2nd seat situation either after Red Bull decide what's happening with Sainz or after Alonso decides what he's doing.

Kimi to retire.

That all seems to be what's mooted and on the money, so much for Alonso's multi-year contract and commitment to McLaren, I knew it would have performance clauses. :)


1+1 was mooted from the start and common sense finally and arguably the first thing he's done right contract wise since 2000.

Now he just needs to pick his team mate as a condition of his next contract, seems to be the way to go. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:30 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Already last year Vandoorne was telling us how he´s trying to get the car more suited to his driving style, is it not also common knowledge that Alonso´s style is unique? We all know the strength of his character and the politics he´s involved in so I don´t know what nerve I hit there.

It was common knowledge way back in 2006, when people used to talk about how he turned into the corner in a different way to anyone else. Twelve years later, I think it's pretty clear he just adapts his style to whatever the car needs, and that's what was the fastest way in those title-winning Renaults.

Fair enough, could well be.

Lotus49 wrote:

Stoff also talked about having a positive feeling in the car during testing which doesn't sound like he thinks it's undriveable. He was just talking about spending more time with Prod too so I don't know what you mean about not being strong enough. What did Lewis stop that Vandoorne didn't?

His style was unique on Michelins but he changed it for the switch to Bridgestones, I honestly don't know if he has a particularly unique style now. Even so it doesn't matter as the designers aren't going to listen to him if its detrimental to car performance. And if his way is the quickest way and his team mate can't extract it then that's on them.

So it was Finnish TV then,right? It's a Kimi pull rod related nerve tbh, I have a low tolerance for such obvious manure made up to explain away issues in 2014 but which somehow remains despite 4 further years of the same rubbish form for that driver, across both pull and push rod, 2 different tyre structures and 2 different car regulations.

Meanwhile Alonso's using push rods now at McLaren but is still somehow doing it. Seems he can create an undriveable car for any team mate whatever the car or suspension. Or he's just better of course and has a far wider working window than most drivers like seemingly everyone, including Stoff, keeps telling us.

Yeah I have no interesting in continuing discussing with you when you can't seem to tone it down.


:?:

Manure is too strong? I'm pretty sure I carried on the tone with which you started but fair enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Ricciardo’s bargaining power has halved after this drive from Verstappen today.

It’s becoming increasingly obvious that Max is consistently the faster driver when he doesn’t crash out.

Has it? The first one, that is. Max isn't on the market, so how does his relative pace affect Ricciardo's bargaining power?

Ricciardo has less bargaining power with Red Bull if Verstappen is consistently the faster driver.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:47 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Already last year Vandoorne was telling us how he´s trying to get the car more suited to his driving style, is it not also common knowledge that Alonso´s style is unique? We all know the strength of his character and the politics he´s involved in so I don´t know what nerve I hit there.

It was common knowledge way back in 2006, when people used to talk about how he turned into the corner in a different way to anyone else. Twelve years later, I think it's pretty clear he just adapts his style to whatever the car needs, and that's what was the fastest way in those title-winning Renaults.

Fair enough, could well be.

Lotus49 wrote:

Stoff also talked about having a positive feeling in the car during testing which doesn't sound like he thinks it's undriveable. He was just talking about spending more time with Prod too so I don't know what you mean about not being strong enough. What did Lewis stop that Vandoorne didn't?

His style was unique on Michelins but he changed it for the switch to Bridgestones, I honestly don't know if he has a particularly unique style now. Even so it doesn't matter as the designers aren't going to listen to him if its detrimental to car performance. And if his way is the quickest way and his team mate can't extract it then that's on them.

So it was Finnish TV then,right? It's a Kimi pull rod related nerve tbh, I have a low tolerance for such obvious manure made up to explain away issues in 2014 but which somehow remains despite 4 further years of the same rubbish form for that driver, across both pull and push rod, 2 different tyre structures and 2 different car regulations.

Meanwhile Alonso's using push rods now at McLaren but is still somehow doing it. Seems he can create an undriveable car for any team mate whatever the car or suspension. Or he's just better of course and has a far wider working window than most drivers like seemingly everyone, including Stoff, keeps telling us.

Yeah I have no interesting in continuing discussing with you when you can't seem to tone it down.


:?:

Manure is too strong? I'm pretty sure I carried on the tone with which you started but fair enough.


In fairness, I could see Macca bending backwards to whatever Alonso demands in order to please him. They are really going backwards and Alonso is the only big name that would consider driving for them at the moment with their form. Maybe this never happened in the past, but I wouldn't put it past them at this stage


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:54 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Fair enough, could well be.

Lotus49 wrote:

Stoff also talked about having a positive feeling in the car during testing which doesn't sound like he thinks it's undriveable. He was just talking about spending more time with Prod too so I don't know what you mean about not being strong enough. What did Lewis stop that Vandoorne didn't?

His style was unique on Michelins but he changed it for the switch to Bridgestones, I honestly don't know if he has a particularly unique style now. Even so it doesn't matter as the designers aren't going to listen to him if its detrimental to car performance. And if his way is the quickest way and his team mate can't extract it then that's on them.

So it was Finnish TV then,right? It's a Kimi pull rod related nerve tbh, I have a low tolerance for such obvious manure made up to explain away issues in 2014 but which somehow remains despite 4 further years of the same rubbish form for that driver, across both pull and push rod, 2 different tyre structures and 2 different car regulations.

Meanwhile Alonso's using push rods now at McLaren but is still somehow doing it. Seems he can create an undriveable car for any team mate whatever the car or suspension. Or he's just better of course and has a far wider working window than most drivers like seemingly everyone, including Stoff, keeps telling us.

Yeah I have no interesting in continuing discussing with you when you can't seem to tone it down.


:?:

Manure is too strong? I'm pretty sure I carried on the tone with which you started but fair enough.


In fairness, I could see Macca bending backwards to whatever Alonso demands in order to please him. They are really going backwards and Alonso is the only big name that would consider driving for them at the moment with their form. Maybe this never happened in the past, but I wouldn't put it past them at this stage


Plus, consider where they would be with two Vandoorne's points-wise ...
Alonso single-handedly saves them some wcc money.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:56 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Already last year Vandoorne was telling us how he´s trying to get the car more suited to his driving style, is it not also common knowledge that Alonso´s style is unique? We all know the strength of his character and the politics he´s involved in so I don´t know what nerve I hit there.

It was common knowledge way back in 2006, when people used to talk about how he turned into the corner in a different way to anyone else. Twelve years later, I think it's pretty clear he just adapts his style to whatever the car needs, and that's what was the fastest way in those title-winning Renaults.

Fair enough, could well be.

Lotus49 wrote:

Stoff also talked about having a positive feeling in the car during testing which doesn't sound like he thinks it's undriveable. He was just talking about spending more time with Prod too so I don't know what you mean about not being strong enough. What did Lewis stop that Vandoorne didn't?

His style was unique on Michelins but he changed it for the switch to Bridgestones, I honestly don't know if he has a particularly unique style now. Even so it doesn't matter as the designers aren't going to listen to him if its detrimental to car performance. And if his way is the quickest way and his team mate can't extract it then that's on them.

So it was Finnish TV then,right? It's a Kimi pull rod related nerve tbh, I have a low tolerance for such obvious manure made up to explain away issues in 2014 but which somehow remains despite 4 further years of the same rubbish form for that driver, across both pull and push rod, 2 different tyre structures and 2 different car regulations.

Meanwhile Alonso's using push rods now at McLaren but is still somehow doing it. Seems he can create an undriveable car for any team mate whatever the car or suspension. Or he's just better of course and has a far wider working window than most drivers like seemingly everyone, including Stoff, keeps telling us.

Yeah I have no interesting in continuing discussing with you when you can't seem to tone it down.


:?:

Manure is too strong? I'm pretty sure I carried on the tone with which you started but fair enough.


In fairness, I could see Macca bending backwards to whatever Alonso demands in order to please him. They are really going backwards and Alonso is the only big name that would consider driving for them at the moment with their form. Maybe this never happened in the past, but I wouldn't put it past them at this stage


They already bent over backwards for him. The Indy 500, a full WEC season, ditching Honda (which won't have been 100% down to Fernando but being able to retain him certainly will have played a part in the decision). They've even got his Kimoa brand in prominent places on the car. At some point there isn't going to be anything else they can offer him that balances out the fact that they've continued to fail to give him what he actually wants, which is a fast car (and to be honest, I think we're already past that point).

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:42 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It was common knowledge way back in 2006, when people used to talk about how he turned into the corner in a different way to anyone else. Twelve years later, I think it's pretty clear he just adapts his style to whatever the car needs, and that's what was the fastest way in those title-winning Renaults.

Fair enough, could well be.

Lotus49 wrote:

Stoff also talked about having a positive feeling in the car during testing which doesn't sound like he thinks it's undriveable. He was just talking about spending more time with Prod too so I don't know what you mean about not being strong enough. What did Lewis stop that Vandoorne didn't?

His style was unique on Michelins but he changed it for the switch to Bridgestones, I honestly don't know if he has a particularly unique style now. Even so it doesn't matter as the designers aren't going to listen to him if its detrimental to car performance. And if his way is the quickest way and his team mate can't extract it then that's on them.

So it was Finnish TV then,right? It's a Kimi pull rod related nerve tbh, I have a low tolerance for such obvious manure made up to explain away issues in 2014 but which somehow remains despite 4 further years of the same rubbish form for that driver, across both pull and push rod, 2 different tyre structures and 2 different car regulations.

Meanwhile Alonso's using push rods now at McLaren but is still somehow doing it. Seems he can create an undriveable car for any team mate whatever the car or suspension. Or he's just better of course and has a far wider working window than most drivers like seemingly everyone, including Stoff, keeps telling us.

Yeah I have no interesting in continuing discussing with you when you can't seem to tone it down.


:?:

Manure is too strong? I'm pretty sure I carried on the tone with which you started but fair enough.


In fairness, I could see Macca bending backwards to whatever Alonso demands in order to please him. They are really going backwards and Alonso is the only big name that would consider driving for them at the moment with their form. Maybe this never happened in the past, but I wouldn't put it past them at this stage


They already bent over backwards for him. The Indy 500, a full WEC season, ditching Honda (which won't have been 100% down to Fernando but being able to retain him certainly will have played a part in the decision). They've even got his Kimoa brand in prominent places on the car. At some point there isn't going to be anything else they can offer him that balances out the fact that they've continued to fail to give him what he actually wants, which is a fast car (and to be honest, I think we're already past that point).


Very true. These are all... gimmicks all things considering, but indeed they have gone out of their way to please him. But giving him a car he likes would be the main thing for me


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Very true. These are all... gimmicks all things considering, but indeed they have gone out of their way to please him. But giving him a car he likes would be the main thing for me



But he's using a different suspension from the last time we were told he's getting the designers to design a car that his team mate can't drive. We were told he specifically uses pull rod because the other drivers prefer push rod but here he is 4 years on the bounce using push rod.

It seemed far fetched at the time and someone so desperate for a competitive car just isn't going to ask for anything other than the quickest you can design, whatever traits, whatever suspension set up.

It just sounds insane to me that people would believe someone would rather try to influence design around his team mates failings rather than for competitiveness.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:37 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Very true. These are all... gimmicks all things considering, but indeed they have gone out of their way to please him. But giving him a car he likes would be the main thing for me



But he's using a different suspension from the last time we were told he's getting the designers to design a car that his team mate can't drive. We were told he specifically uses pull rod because the other drivers prefer push rod but here he is 4 years on the bounce using push rod.

It seemed far fetched at the time and someone so desperate for a competitive car just isn't going to ask for anything other than the quickest you can design, whatever traits, whatever suspension set up.

It just sounds insane to me that people would believe someone would rather try to influence design around his team mates failings rather than for competitiveness.


I agree absolutely. I wasn't contesting the specific example, I am sure no driver would want an undrivable car to better his team mate. I am just saying that if he has asked Macca to do something in the car design, I can see Macca just doing it over his team mate's preference. Only that.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2019
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Lewis and Bottas's 2 year deals will get announced at Silverstone I think. Dan's 2 year deal with Red Bull announced sometime this week. Monza for Leclerc's 2yr deal to Ferrari.

Everyone out of contract at the end of 2020 so that will be an epic one. Next year's not so much, might be the dullest in history.

McLaren situation whenever Alonso makes his mind up or they score a podium (Apparently that's the trigger for Alonso's 1+1 deal on their side or certain performance marks they're unlikely to hit anyway).

Renault's 2nd seat situation either after Red Bull decide what's happening with Sainz or after Alonso decides what he's doing.

Kimi to retire.

That all seems to be what's mooted and on the money, so much for Alonso's multi-year contract and commitment to McLaren, I knew it would have performance clauses. :)


1+1 was mooted from the start and common sense finally and arguably the first thing he's done right contract wise since 2000.

Now he just needs to pick his team mate as a condition of his next contract, seems to be the way to go. :)

No I think we all knew what Alonso's contract would be it's Alonso's own wording that his signing of a multi-year contract with McLaren was proof of his commitment to the team, got to love the guy. :)

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