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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Monza

The long run pace in FP did not translate into the race. I thought Ferrari and Mercedes were about equal in the race, but Lewis had supreme pace on the day. Obviously, Ferrari had the better car for qualifying.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Amazing work from Merc to still be the team to beat, year after year, very impressive!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Monza

The long run pace in FP did not translate into the race. I thought Ferrari and Mercedes were about equal in the race, but Lewis had supreme pace on the day. Obviously, Ferrari had the better car for qualifying.

You can't really say that because Vettel had a damaged car and fell to teh back. he's got FAR better race pace then Raikkonen most of the time. I thought Hamilton had better race pace than Kimi but had Vettel been the car up front, I think it would have been Spa all over again.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Ferrari have had the better car in the last 4 races but Hamilton has managed to get 3 wins and a 2nd through speed, some luck, weather and driver mistakes. His got to be well pleased, hopefully Singapore goes just aswell but im worried.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:00 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Monza

The long run pace in FP did not translate into the race. I thought Ferrari and Mercedes were about equal in the race, but Lewis had supreme pace on the day. Obviously, Ferrari had the better car for qualifying.

You can't really say that because Vettel had a damaged car and fell to teh back. he's got FAR better race pace then Raikkonen most of the time. I thought Hamilton had better race pace than Kimi but had Vettel been the car up front, I think it would have been Spa all over again.


Yes - good point. It had escaped my mind that Vettel was carrying damage for the whole race which compromised the balance of his car.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:00 pm 
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With Vettel out of contention and Bottas wedged behind Verstappen all we can really say is that in the race the Kimi/Ferrari package looked a bit slower than the Hamilton/Mercedes package.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:19 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
Amazing work from Merc to still be the team to beat, year after year, very impressive!


Team being the operative word, however churlishly meant your comment actually was.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
With Vettel out of contention and Bottas wedged behind Verstappen all we can really say is that in the race the Kimi/Ferrari package looked a bit slower than the Hamilton/Mercedes package.

Yes agreed.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Singapore was the turning point for Vettel in both 2010 and 2012, the race where he stopped messing around and made a comeback from 40 points behind to take the title.

I don’t think the same will happen this year though. Right now Vettel is not in a good place mentally.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:09 pm 
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Ferrari are kind of squandering their period of strength these last few races. Other than Spa, they have failed to deliver and they actually lost out in the constructors at Spa too because of Raikkonen's DNF. One way or another, they need to start to take advantage of their pace. I think hindsight suggests that Vettel should have run behind Kimi in Q3. At this point, they need to go full on 2000-2004 mode with their 1-2 driver status. If they want Vettel to win, they cannot afford to allow these kinds of outcomes anymore. The season is 2/3 over now and the WDC points gap has just reached the largest amount so far. There's really no way that this period of time should be one where they are falling behind in the points when you consider that their car has been the fastest for the last 5 race weekends.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:27 pm 
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I wonder if Ferrari's improvements in pace and power have come slightly at the expense of tyre life. They were chewing through them in Monza.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:34 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Singapore was the turning point for Vettel in both 2010 and 2012, the race where he stopped messing around and made a comeback from 40 points behind to take the title.

I don’t think the same will happen this year though. Right now Vettel is not in a good place mentally.


Vettel is generally pretty good at taking each race as it comes. He falls apart some weekends but then can turn it on again the race after no problem.

I don't get the sense that he is under pressure in the team either. The Italian media have been lukewarm to him but he is popular within the team. They probably won't be too impressed if he doesn't deliver the 2018 world title but the team have messed up themselves at times.

Also I don't see who could do a better job than Vettel out of the drivers realistically available to Ferrari. Alonso is retiring, Ricciardo to Renault is a done deal, Hamilton and Verstappen have bumper new contracts.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:45 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
I wonder if Ferrari's improvements in pace and power have come slightly at the expense of tyre life. They were chewing through them in Monza.


It's not as simple as chewing through the tyres. Vettel was in traffic, pit on lap 1 and had a damaged car, at what point was his tyres blistered because he was always pitting again so be could always push as hard as he wanted.

Kimi pit early, pushed hard at the start of the stint and was in Bottas dirty air. I would like to read more information before deciding Ferrari was chewing through their tyres 1 week after being so good.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:48 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
I wonder if Ferrari's improvements in pace and power have come slightly at the expense of tyre life. They were chewing through them in Monza.


It's not as simple as chewing through the tyres. Vettel was in traffic, pit on lap 1 and had a damaged car, at what point was his tyres blistered because he was always pitting again so be could always push as hard as he wanted.

Kimi pit early, pushed hard at the start of the stint and was in Bottas dirty air. I would like to read more information before deciding Ferrari was chewing through their tyres 1 week after being so good.
True, there are a lot of things which may have affected either driver and the fact both of them had issues could be coincidental. But Hamilton managed to hound Kimi quite tightly with no obvious wear issues, while Kimi's tyres suffered quite quickly. It does appear at first glance that the Ferraris didn't get on with the Softs here


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Mercedes are far more ruthless than Ferrari. Mercedes have show time and time again that they are happy to use Bottas as a tool to get the desired result for Hamilton. Ferrari were even shy to issue team orders in Germany when the drivers were on different strategies.

Next time Ferrari get a 1-2 in qualifying with Hamilton third, they should use Kimi as a roadblock and back Hamilton into the Red Bulls, Abu Dhabi 2016 style.

Arrivabene won’t do that unfortunately because Kimi is a close friend of his.

If Ferrari still had Jean Todt and Ross Brawn in charge, I would definitely put my money on Vettel WDC. Arrivabene is too nice.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:43 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Mercedes are far more ruthless than Ferrari. Mercedes have show time and time again that they are happy to use Bottas as a tool to get the desired result for Hamilton. Ferrari were even shy to issue team orders in Germany when the drivers were on different strategies.

Next time Ferrari get a 1-2 in qualifying with Hamilton third, they should use Kimi as a roadblock and back Hamilton into the Red Bulls, Abu Dhabi 2016 style.

Arrivabene won’t do that unfortunately because Kimi is a close friend of his.

If Ferrari still had Jean Todt and Ross Brawn in charge, I would definitely put my money on Vettel WDC. Arrivabene is too nice.


Ferrari lost 2 recent races through this. Kimi quite simply can not win races against Vettel. The same for Bottas. The two Ferraris needed to run in formation to make it through the first 2 chicanes today. I can’t believe they didn’t manage the start. A little of the blame needs to go on Vettel, he should have just held P2 on the first lap as his only priority.

The same for Germany, Vettel lost at least 8 seconds stuck behind Kimi. I am almost certain if he had a 20 second lead and not a vulnerable 11 second one, he doesn’t crash out.

Even Singapore 2017. Whilst not Kimi’s fault, even if Kimi and Verstappen didn’t collide. Kimi created a situation where the 3 of them would have arrived at turn 1 three cars wide, in the wet, with Vettel in the most dangerous position on the outside. A collision was likely then in that scenario. Kimi is not a rear gunner. That race was the turning point in 2017. He needs to race for Vettel now.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:00 am 
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Vettels mistake was going wide to have a look on the inside of Kimi which allowed Hamilton the chance around the outside. Kimi done nothing wrong, his job was to get a good start and make sure it's a Ferrari 1-2 by the end of lap 1, Vettel made the mistake.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:04 am 
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You’re right, but if Ferrari had told Vettel that Kimi will let him by after the first lap then Vettel doesn’t give Hamilton that opportunity. So its not a blame on Kimi this time, more Ferrari not laying down the rules of engagement and Vettel being inpatient.

Maybe it’s in Kimi’s contract that he is equal and allowed to win up to a certain point in the year. They used to agree post Monza to support the lead driver in the Kimi-Massa years.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:34 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Ferrari have had the better car in the last 4 races but Hamilton has managed to get 3 wins and a 2nd through speed, some luck, weather and driver mistakes. His got to be well pleased, hopefully Singapore goes just aswell but im worried.


Agreed.

I was also expecting Ferrari to get their usual better starts and easily hold off Lewis. I honestly believed it would be Lewis 3rd. Vettel did his usual and gave in to his own pressure by pushing too hard (saw this last season). Plus failed to take the blame. Both drivers had enough space - Vettel looked like he struggled for grip and clipped in to Lewis but still managed to blame him....

I do like Vettel at times but it's frustrating to see him blaming Lewis..... like the break test last year... but then again Lewis failed to take the blame a few times over the years (especially when he and Massa kept having on track issues).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:53 am 
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I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:07 am 
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Lojik wrote:
I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.

Yes I agree. I thought Kimi might be able to build a small gap after the first lap but Hamilton hung on doggedly. I do think that Vettel would have been able to create a gap, but only because that appears to be a specialty of his and he generally has better race pace than Kimi anyway. Really enjoyed the fight, though, and made for a very entertaining (if stressful!) viewing.

To me the cars looked fairly equal, which surprised me as after qualifying I had thought Ferrari had the edge. But Hamilton was quicker than Kimi, which you'd expect in equal machinery anyway, and I don't think he was operating with a car disadvantage. I'm quite impressed how Mercedes appeared to have magically solved their traction issues that were so prevalent in Spa. Right from the first corner I was thinking how much traction Hamilton appeared to have.

Looks good from a championship perspective, as I genuinely haven't got a clue who will win the remaining races. They look about as equal as two different cars can possibly be.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:35 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.

Yes I agree. I thought Kimi might be able to build a small gap after the first lap but Hamilton hung on doggedly. I do think that Vettel would have been able to create a gap, but only because that appears to be a specialty of his and he generally has better race pace than Kimi anyway. Really enjoyed the fight, though, and made for a very entertaining (if stressful!) viewing.

To me the cars looked fairly equal, which surprised me as after qualifying I had thought Ferrari had the edge. But Hamilton was quicker than Kimi, which you'd expect in equal machinery anyway, and I don't think he was operating with a car disadvantage. I'm quite impressed how Mercedes appeared to have magically solved their traction issues that were so prevalent in Spa. Right from the first corner I was thinking how much traction Hamilton appeared to have.

Looks good from a championship perspective, as I genuinely haven't got a clue who will win the remaining races. They look about as equal as two different cars can possibly be.

If the gap could be down to 15 points (Vettel 1st, Hamilton 5th) after Singapore that would be ideal heading into the last few races IMO, Ferrari overall have had a slight edge so far so 4 wins out of the last 6 races isn't out of the question.

A 30 point gap looks pretty damning right now assuming no misfortune/mistakes from Hamilton given how close the cars look. Still a long way to go but we could do with that gap closing up a bit over the next 2 races to keep this interesting.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:47 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.

Yes I agree. I thought Kimi might be able to build a small gap after the first lap but Hamilton hung on doggedly. I do think that Vettel would have been able to create a gap, but only because that appears to be a specialty of his and he generally has better race pace than Kimi anyway. Really enjoyed the fight, though, and made for a very entertaining (if stressful!) viewing.

To me the cars looked fairly equal, which surprised me as after qualifying I had thought Ferrari had the edge. But Hamilton was quicker than Kimi, which you'd expect in equal machinery anyway, and I don't think he was operating with a car disadvantage. I'm quite impressed how Mercedes appeared to have magically solved their traction issues that were so prevalent in Spa. Right from the first corner I was thinking how much traction Hamilton appeared to have.

Looks good from a championship perspective, as I genuinely haven't got a clue who will win the remaining races. They look about as equal as two different cars can possibly be.



Right - and Hamilton did say shortly after qualifying that Mercedes were very happy with where they're at despite having the feeling that Ferrari would pull it out of the bag on the final Q3 runs. It gave me the impression that they were quietly confident for the race, although I'm sure they weren't expecting to win given their grid positions.

We don't have the fullest information available but I've marked down the Monza race as a tie for race-pace, making an educated guess, with Ferrari having the qualifying advantage.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:02 am 
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Lojik wrote:
I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.


Dirty air is not a big problem in Monza, only 3 corners it hurts you on.

Ascari, parabolica and Lesmo’s. Other tracks have 9-12 corners were dirty air hurts you. If you watched the GPS, Hamiton would lose 0.3 through the Parabolica (but gained 0.4-0.5 back with DRS on main straight). He would also lose about 0.3 through the Lesmos but gain 0.3 back in the DRS straight immediately after. Ascari he would lose 0.2 odd but gain about nearly that back in the slipstream to parabolica.

With double DRS you get dragged around at Monza. No doubt Lewis was quicker, he never fell more than 1.2 behind all stint but it maybe have only been 0.2-0.3 per lap. Any other track to stay that close you would need to be massively quicker.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:06 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.

Yes I agree. I thought Kimi might be able to build a small gap after the first lap but Hamilton hung on doggedly. I do think that Vettel would have been able to create a gap, but only because that appears to be a specialty of his and he generally has better race pace than Kimi anyway. Really enjoyed the fight, though, and made for a very entertaining (if stressful!) viewing.

To me the cars looked fairly equal, which surprised me as after qualifying I had thought Ferrari had the edge. But Hamilton was quicker than Kimi, which you'd expect in equal machinery anyway, and I don't think he was operating with a car disadvantage. I'm quite impressed how Mercedes appeared to have magically solved their traction issues that were so prevalent in Spa. Right from the first corner I was thinking how much traction Hamilton appeared to have.

Looks good from a championship perspective, as I genuinely haven't got a clue who will win the remaining races. They look about as equal as two different cars can possibly be.

If the gap could be down to 15 points (Vettel 1st, Hamilton 5th) after Singapore that would be ideal heading into the last few races IMO, Ferrari overall have had a slight edge so far so 4 wins out of the last 6 races isn't out of the question.

A 30 point gap looks pretty damning right now assuming no misfortune/mistakes from Hamilton given how close the cars look. Still a long way to go but we could do with that gap closing up a bit over the next 2 races to keep this interesting.


30 points is a good lead but it would be a lot more comfortable if Singapore wasn’t still to run. 1st-5th is a very plausible result and looking at Red Bulls form 2017-2018 at Monaco it seems they will be in the hunt for the race win. Does Ricciardo need a new engine though?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:08 am 
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Kimi also still isn’t running the full spec 3 engine. Is it the spec 3 turbo he doesn’t have?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:10 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Ferrari have had the better car in the last 4 races but Hamilton has managed to get 3 wins and a 2nd through speed, some luck, weather and driver mistakes. His got to be well pleased, hopefully Singapore goes just aswell but im worried.


Agreed.

I was also expecting Ferrari to get their usual better starts and easily hold off Lewis. I honestly believed it would be Lewis 3rd. Vettel did his usual and gave in to his own pressure by pushing too hard (saw this last season). Plus failed to take the blame. Both drivers had enough space - Vettel looked like he struggled for grip and clipped in to Lewis but still managed to blame him....

I do like Vettel at times but it's frustrating to see him blaming Lewis..... like the break test last year... but then again Lewis failed to take the blame a few times over the years (especially when he and Massa kept having on track issues).


The difference is Hamilton has moved on from that year with the collisions. His a driver who looks at the bigger picture and knows consistency and bringing the car home counts for a lot specially when you look at 2016 and the reliability issues. The Hamilton we saw yesterday we haven't seen for a while on lap 1 but Vettel left a gap and I guess Hamilton knew how important it was, if Hamilton was 3rd after lap 1 then I reckon he would have been looking at 2nd on a good day.

With Vettel these mistakes have been going on for years specially the last 2 years between the top 2 drivers, I'm sure there will be 1 more before the end of the year. I know it's easy for me to say but he should have been looking at the bigger picture, Kimi was well in front at the chicane, I don't know why he went wide but in reality he is beating Kimi if it's on track or through the pitstops. Even if both Ferrari's finish ahead of Hamilton it's better than what happened at turn 3.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:15 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Kimi also still isn’t running the full spec 3 engine. Is it the spec 3 turbo he doesn’t have?
I know he didn't change turbo last race, but didn't know a revised one had been brought out?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:15 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.

Yes I agree. I thought Kimi might be able to build a small gap after the first lap but Hamilton hung on doggedly. I do think that Vettel would have been able to create a gap, but only because that appears to be a specialty of his and he generally has better race pace than Kimi anyway. Really enjoyed the fight, though, and made for a very entertaining (if stressful!) viewing.

To me the cars looked fairly equal, which surprised me as after qualifying I had thought Ferrari had the edge. But Hamilton was quicker than Kimi, which you'd expect in equal machinery anyway, and I don't think he was operating with a car disadvantage. I'm quite impressed how Mercedes appeared to have magically solved their traction issues that were so prevalent in Spa. Right from the first corner I was thinking how much traction Hamilton appeared to have.

Looks good from a championship perspective, as I genuinely haven't got a clue who will win the remaining races. They look about as equal as two different cars can possibly be.


Kimis race pace is generally always awful, it's that bad I would say Hamilton is faster in a car disadvantage over Kimi, the same with Vettel over Kimi too. His race pace is really that bad.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:19 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.

Yes I agree. I thought Kimi might be able to build a small gap after the first lap but Hamilton hung on doggedly. I do think that Vettel would have been able to create a gap, but only because that appears to be a specialty of his and he generally has better race pace than Kimi anyway. Really enjoyed the fight, though, and made for a very entertaining (if stressful!) viewing.

To me the cars looked fairly equal, which surprised me as after qualifying I had thought Ferrari had the edge. But Hamilton was quicker than Kimi, which you'd expect in equal machinery anyway, and I don't think he was operating with a car disadvantage. I'm quite impressed how Mercedes appeared to have magically solved their traction issues that were so prevalent in Spa. Right from the first corner I was thinking how much traction Hamilton appeared to have.

Looks good from a championship perspective, as I genuinely haven't got a clue who will win the remaining races. They look about as equal as two different cars can possibly be.


Kimis race pace is generally always awful, it's that bad I would say Hamilton is faster in a car disadvantage over Kimi, the same with Vettel over Kimi too. His race pace is really that bad.

It's not impossible, but it's complete guesswork, though. Kimi can show decent pace on occasion and you'd have to say leading from the front is bound to make a driver focus and pull out all the stops. Point is that on the evidence alone there's nothing to suggest the Ferrari was quicker on race day


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:26 am 
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Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.

Yes I agree. I thought Kimi might be able to build a small gap after the first lap but Hamilton hung on doggedly. I do think that Vettel would have been able to create a gap, but only because that appears to be a specialty of his and he generally has better race pace than Kimi anyway. Really enjoyed the fight, though, and made for a very entertaining (if stressful!) viewing.

To me the cars looked fairly equal, which surprised me as after qualifying I had thought Ferrari had the edge. But Hamilton was quicker than Kimi, which you'd expect in equal machinery anyway, and I don't think he was operating with a car disadvantage. I'm quite impressed how Mercedes appeared to have magically solved their traction issues that were so prevalent in Spa. Right from the first corner I was thinking how much traction Hamilton appeared to have.

Looks good from a championship perspective, as I genuinely haven't got a clue who will win the remaining races. They look about as equal as two different cars can possibly be.


Kimis race pace is generally always awful, it's that bad I would say Hamilton is faster in a car disadvantage over Kimi, the same with Vettel over Kimi too. His race pace is really that bad.

It's not impossible, but it's complete guesswork, though. Kimi can show decent pace on occasion and you'd have to say leading from the front is bound to make a driver focus and pull out all the stops. Point is that on the evidence alone there's nothing to suggest the Ferrari was quicker on race day


I'm pretty sure you have said yourself Kimi's race pace isn't great, it's his biggest downfall. I'm not really sure how Kimi being at the front would suddenly make his race pace better. If that was Vettel he would have a bigger gap because his race pace is generally always better. I'm not saying the Ferrari was quicker, I'm just saying both Hamilton and Vettel would beat Kimi in slightly inferior machinery because Kimi's race pace is that poor and they are both top drivers.

Ferrari should have won that race given their quali positions, Vettel made that very difficult for his team, get through the chicane 1st and 2nd and it makes life very hard for Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:46 am 
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Johnson wrote:
You’re right, but if Ferrari had told Vettel that Kimi will let him by after the first lap then Vettel doesn’t give Hamilton that opportunity. So its not a blame on Kimi this time, more Ferrari not laying down the rules of engagement and Vettel being inpatient.

Maybe it’s in Kimi’s contract that he is equal and allowed to win up to a certain point in the year. They used to agree post Monza to support the lead driver in the Kimi-Massa years.


Mark Hughes reports if Kimi puts it on pole that it triggers a no team orders clause. If true then not a lot Ferrari can do unless they give him a new contract :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:59 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Kimi also still isn’t running the full spec 3 engine. Is it the spec 3 turbo he doesn’t have?
I know he didn't change turbo last race, but didn't know a revised one had been brought out?


Is he running the spec 2 turbo? It’s unheard of these days to I introduce a new spec component without it having some kind of improvement. It’s basically 2-3 months of development. That could be worth as little as 0.020 though.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:12 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.

Yes I agree. I thought Kimi might be able to build a small gap after the first lap but Hamilton hung on doggedly. I do think that Vettel would have been able to create a gap, but only because that appears to be a specialty of his and he generally has better race pace than Kimi anyway. Really enjoyed the fight, though, and made for a very entertaining (if stressful!) viewing.

To me the cars looked fairly equal, which surprised me as after qualifying I had thought Ferrari had the edge. But Hamilton was quicker than Kimi, which you'd expect in equal machinery anyway, and I don't think he was operating with a car disadvantage. I'm quite impressed how Mercedes appeared to have magically solved their traction issues that were so prevalent in Spa. Right from the first corner I was thinking how much traction Hamilton appeared to have.

Looks good from a championship perspective, as I genuinely haven't got a clue who will win the remaining races. They look about as equal as two different cars can possibly be.


Kimis race pace is generally always awful, it's that bad I would say Hamilton is faster in a car disadvantage over Kimi, the same with Vettel over Kimi too. His race pace is really that bad.

It's not impossible, but it's complete guesswork, though. Kimi can show decent pace on occasion and you'd have to say leading from the front is bound to make a driver focus and pull out all the stops. Point is that on the evidence alone there's nothing to suggest the Ferrari was quicker on race day


I'm pretty sure you have said yourself Kimi's race pace isn't great, it's his biggest downfall. I'm not really sure how Kimi being at the front would suddenly make his race pace better. If that was Vettel he would have a bigger gap because his race pace is generally always better. I'm not saying the Ferrari was quicker, I'm just saying both Hamilton and Vettel would beat Kimi in slightly inferior machinery because Kimi's race pace is that poor and they are both top drivers.

Ferrari should have won that race given their quali positions, Vettel made that very difficult for his team, get through the chicane 1st and 2nd and it makes life very hard for Mercedes.

Yes I agree Kimi's race pace is generally not that impressive and I've already said that I think that Vettel would most likely have been quicker than him. The real question is by how much. Hamilton was definitely already quicker than him so how can we say that he must have had a car deficit? All I'm saying is that just from looking at the evidence of the race there's nothing to conclude that the Ferrari must have been quicker (I know you've just said you're not claiming that, but that's been the point we've been discussing in this sub-thread).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:42 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
You’re right, but if Ferrari had told Vettel that Kimi will let him by after the first lap then Vettel doesn’t give Hamilton that opportunity. So its not a blame on Kimi this time, more Ferrari not laying down the rules of engagement and Vettel being inpatient.

Maybe it’s in Kimi’s contract that he is equal and allowed to win up to a certain point in the year. They used to agree post Monza to support the lead driver in the Kimi-Massa years.


Mark Hughes reports if Kimi puts it on pole that it triggers a no team orders clause. If true then not a lot Ferrari can do unless they give him a new contract :lol:


That would make sense given Vettels mood post qualifying and his actions to overtake/attack Kimi on lap 1 like it was a genuine race. Ferrari were actually going to let Kimi win if he had the pace, that would have been madness but it fits everything we saw in Vettels reaction and driving


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
You’re right, but if Ferrari had told Vettel that Kimi will let him by after the first lap then Vettel doesn’t give Hamilton that opportunity. So its not a blame on Kimi this time, more Ferrari not laying down the rules of engagement and Vettel being inpatient.

Maybe it’s in Kimi’s contract that he is equal and allowed to win up to a certain point in the year. They used to agree post Monza to support the lead driver in the Kimi-Massa years.


Mark Hughes reports if Kimi puts it on pole that it triggers a no team orders clause. If true then not a lot Ferrari can do unless they give him a new contract :lol:


That would make sense given Vettels mood post qualifying and his actions to overtake/attack Kimi on lap 1 like it was a genuine race. Ferrari were actually going to let Kimi win if he had the pace, that would have been madness but it fits everything we saw in Vettels reaction and driving

yep good point


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.

Yes I agree. I thought Kimi might be able to build a small gap after the first lap but Hamilton hung on doggedly. I do think that Vettel would have been able to create a gap, but only because that appears to be a specialty of his and he generally has better race pace than Kimi anyway. Really enjoyed the fight, though, and made for a very entertaining (if stressful!) viewing.

To me the cars looked fairly equal, which surprised me as after qualifying I had thought Ferrari had the edge. But Hamilton was quicker than Kimi, which you'd expect in equal machinery anyway, and I don't think he was operating with a car disadvantage. I'm quite impressed how Mercedes appeared to have magically solved their traction issues that were so prevalent in Spa. Right from the first corner I was thinking how much traction Hamilton appeared to have.

Looks good from a championship perspective, as I genuinely haven't got a clue who will win the remaining races. They look about as equal as two different cars can possibly be.

If the gap could be down to 15 points (Vettel 1st, Hamilton 5th) after Singapore that would be ideal heading into the last few races IMO, Ferrari overall have had a slight edge so far so 4 wins out of the last 6 races isn't out of the question.

A 30 point gap looks pretty damning right now assuming no misfortune/mistakes from Hamilton given how close the cars look. Still a long way to go but we could do with that gap closing up a bit over the next 2 races to keep this interesting.

Ricciardo is starting from the back so I would say minimum for Hamilton would be 4th barring mishaps.

Edit: Forget that I just remembered he has an older engine that he can use.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Last edited by pokerman on Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
I was very surprised at how Hamilton managed to stay within DRS of Kimi for so long here. Once Kimi made the re-pass I thought he would pull away. Of course we don't have a comparison with the sister car as Vettel had damage, but even though it seems to be the concensus that Kimi has slow(er) race pace I was still suprised at how close the Merc was.

I still think it is way too early to be calling it season over, but Vettel needs to put together a string of solid perfomances, mistake free, to really apply the pressure back on Hamilton. Right now I'd put it on 50/50 between Hamilton and Vettel for the WDC with the Ferrari having a marginal performance advantage.

Yes I agree. I thought Kimi might be able to build a small gap after the first lap but Hamilton hung on doggedly. I do think that Vettel would have been able to create a gap, but only because that appears to be a specialty of his and he generally has better race pace than Kimi anyway. Really enjoyed the fight, though, and made for a very entertaining (if stressful!) viewing.

To me the cars looked fairly equal, which surprised me as after qualifying I had thought Ferrari had the edge. But Hamilton was quicker than Kimi, which you'd expect in equal machinery anyway, and I don't think he was operating with a car disadvantage. I'm quite impressed how Mercedes appeared to have magically solved their traction issues that were so prevalent in Spa. Right from the first corner I was thinking how much traction Hamilton appeared to have.

Looks good from a championship perspective, as I genuinely haven't got a clue who will win the remaining races. They look about as equal as two different cars can possibly be.

In your opinion forgetting the apparent lucky weather affected wins for Hamilton and we go into Singapore expecting the Mercs to get a beating from both Ferrari and Red Bull, what races are we expecting Ferrari to be slower?

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:20 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
You’re right, but if Ferrari had told Vettel that Kimi will let him by after the first lap then Vettel doesn’t give Hamilton that opportunity. So its not a blame on Kimi this time, more Ferrari not laying down the rules of engagement and Vettel being inpatient.

Maybe it’s in Kimi’s contract that he is equal and allowed to win up to a certain point in the year. They used to agree post Monza to support the lead driver in the Kimi-Massa years.


Mark Hughes reports if Kimi puts it on pole that it triggers a no team orders clause. If true then not a lot Ferrari can do unless they give him a new contract :lol:

Ah that explains what Vettel said then, however they did manage to find a way around that at Monaco last year.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:12 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
You’re right, but if Ferrari had told Vettel that Kimi will let him by after the first lap then Vettel doesn’t give Hamilton that opportunity. So its not a blame on Kimi this time, more Ferrari not laying down the rules of engagement and Vettel being inpatient.

Maybe it’s in Kimi’s contract that he is equal and allowed to win up to a certain point in the year. They used to agree post Monza to support the lead driver in the Kimi-Massa years.


Mark Hughes reports if Kimi puts it on pole that it triggers a no team orders clause. If true then not a lot Ferrari can do unless they give him a new contract :lol:


Wow, that explains a lot.


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