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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Q2 time was very close between top3. Going by Vettel and Mercedes comments I think Mercedes have reduced Ferrari 0.4sec advantage from Silverstone. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/8/ferrari-have-the-power-advantage-now---mercedes-.html

Vettel said they were using lower downforce and Mercedes said their engine is not bad but traction and slower corner is more concern for them. In Monza they have some upgrades so it will be interesting how that goes

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Q2 time was very close between top3. Going by Vettel and Mercedes comments I think Mercedes have reduced Ferrari 0.4sec advantage from Silverstone. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/8/ferrari-have-the-power-advantage-now---mercedes-.html

Vettel said they were using lower downforce and Mercedes said their engine is not bad but traction and slower corner is more concern for them. In Monza they have some upgrades so it will be interesting how that goes


I wouldn't make any assumptions on Q2. The top cars can get through to Q3 while saving tyres pretty easy. It's a pity Q3 wasn't dry so we can see the comparisons, pretty sure it would have been a Vettel pole.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:09 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Q2 time was very close between top3. Going by Vettel and Mercedes comments I think Mercedes have reduced Ferrari 0.4sec advantage from Silverstone. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/8/ferrari-have-the-power-advantage-now---mercedes-.html

Vettel said they were using lower downforce and Mercedes said their engine is not bad but traction and slower corner is more concern for them. In Monza they have some upgrades so it will be interesting how that goes


I wouldn't make any assumptions on Q2. The top cars can get through to Q3 while saving tyres pretty easy. It's a pity Q3 wasn't dry so we can see the comparisons, pretty sure it would have been a Vettel pole.


True. These guys don't go all out in Q2, it's all about getting through there and keeping an eye on the tires. I have a strong feeling Ferrari would have opened up a new can of whoopass in Q3 had it stayed dry. Let's see how Monza unfolds. If Mercedes manages to be within 0.3sec of pole I will be suprised.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:26 am 
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However, if the Ferrari remains the car to beat, Hamilton says he will not gain extra motivation from fighting a rival with a better package, and needs to accepts that he will be limited in some races.

"There's only a certain amount that I can do, I can't always create miracles," he said. "There's going to be times like today when it doesn't work.

"We can still beat them at races, I just don't know which ones that's going to be in."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... 74/?nrt=54

How humble of Hamilton to admit he can't always create miracles. Alonso giving him PR lessons?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:22 pm 
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13832 ... ust-engine

According to Toto, it's more than just power that Merc need to be concerned about. Traction at low speed is perhaps their biggest deficit to Ferrari; which we saw in the final chicane as well as in the first corner at Spa.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:16 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Quote:
However, if the Ferrari remains the car to beat, Hamilton says he will not gain extra motivation from fighting a rival with a better package, and needs to accepts that he will be limited in some races.

"There's only a certain amount that I can do, I can't always create miracles," he said. "There's going to be times like today when it doesn't work.

"We can still beat them at races, I just don't know which ones that's going to be in."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... 74/?nrt=54

How humble of Hamilton to admit he can't always create miracles. Alonso giving him PR lessons?

Rain miracles perhaps?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:47 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Quote:
However, if the Ferrari remains the car to beat, Hamilton says he will not gain extra motivation from fighting a rival with a better package, and needs to accepts that he will be limited in some races.

"There's only a certain amount that I can do, I can't always create miracles," he said. "There's going to be times like today when it doesn't work.

"We can still beat them at races, I just don't know which ones that's going to be in."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... 74/?nrt=54

How humble of Hamilton to admit he can't always create miracles. Alonso giving him PR lessons?

Rain miracles perhaps?

It was his creation?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:38 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Quote:
However, if the Ferrari remains the car to beat, Hamilton says he will not gain extra motivation from fighting a rival with a better package, and needs to accepts that he will be limited in some races.

"There's only a certain amount that I can do, I can't always create miracles," he said. "There's going to be times like today when it doesn't work.

"We can still beat them at races, I just don't know which ones that's going to be in."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... 74/?nrt=54

How humble of Hamilton to admit he can't always create miracles. Alonso giving him PR lessons?

Rain miracles perhaps?

It was his creation?

Driving faster in the rain than Vettel was his creation, which I assume is what pokerman meant (being a bit tongue-in-cheek with the whole 'miracle' thing).

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:26 am 
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Interesting quote from Mercedes' Director of Digital Engineering Transformation (no, I've no idea what that is, either), where he says he feels the power units aren't that far off from each other and it's other factors - specifically, tyres - which are making a bigger difference:

Geoff Willis, Mercedes Director of Digital Engineering Transformation , told Motorsport.com that tyre performance was a more critical element in Belgium. He also thinks that it is too simplistic to suggest that either Ferrari or Mercedes has an out-and-out better engine, because their characteristics are so different.

"If you look at the gaps we are seeing, a lot of them are dominated by tyre characteristics, and it is who is getting the tyre right on the day," he said.

"Clearly with the two top runners, they are neck and neck on power. They have got different characteristics and different deployment potential around the circuits. It is quite interesting to try to work out what it is that we are doing different from each other.

"The cars do behave differently and there is quite a lot of noise on the signal. But if you take the underlying relative performance of the two cars in terms of who has got the upper hand, it is quite tricky to say at the moment."


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/petr ... 05/?nrt=54


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:30 pm 
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It seems that both teams will employ team orders very shortly, this could get very interesting indeed.

What are peoples thoughts on more extreme team orders? Lets say for example Ferrari/Mercedes have the constructors title basically won. How about using the 2nd car as an extreme spoiler that can get the lead of the race and control it (maybe on a weekend where the opposing car is stronger). This can be easily achieved by fueling the car at the start of the race with just 60% fuel. The car obviously won't finish but will be able to control the race as it will be around 2.0 seconds per lap quicker than if it had 100% fuel. Its quite easy to manipulate the race to the number 1's advantage.

Other things that could be done are spec 4 engines for the numbers 2. 3 race life upgraded special engines. They can take a penalty with 4 races to go and give the number 2 an extreme engine and more of a qualifying setup to get him on pole in order to control the races.

Do you think we will see anything like this?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:53 pm 
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I have no problem with basic driver team orders when there is realistically only one driver in the WDC hunt. This includes things like leaving the #2 driver out for longer in a stint to hold up the main opposition, moving the #2 driver over to allow the #1 to gain a few extra points etc. The kind of thing we have seen in the past. I even thought opening the seals on Massa's gearbox to get Alonso on the "faster" side of the grid at the US GP was smart thinking.

I do not however particularly like the extreme examples you have listed such as significantly underfuelling a car. Is such a thing even legal? Running a car to deliberately not finish. I'd imagine if things like that started happening the race stewards/FIA may be inclined to step in.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
It seems that both teams will employ team orders very shortly, this could get very interesting indeed.

What are peoples thoughts on more extreme team orders? Lets say for example Ferrari/Mercedes have the constructors title basically won. How about using the 2nd car as an extreme spoiler that can get the lead of the race and control it (maybe on a weekend where the opposing car is stronger). This can be easily achieved by fueling the car at the start of the race with just 60% fuel. The car obviously won't finish but will be able to control the race as it will be around 2.0 seconds per lap quicker than if it had 100% fuel. Its quite easy to manipulate the race to the number 1's advantage.

Other things that could be done are spec 4 engines for the numbers 2. 3 race life upgraded special engines. They can take a penalty with 4 races to go and give the number 2 an extreme engine and more of a qualifying setup to get him on pole in order to control the races.

Do you think we will see anything like this?

I don't think option 1 would happen for a couple of reasons:
    1. The way things are it looks likely the WCC will also go down to the wire and both cars will be needed
    2. The teams would know there would likely be a fairly hefty backlash at such an action and it's doubtful they'd want to defend it. Not impossible, but doubtful. A car running out of fuel a significant number of laps from the end would raise a lot of questions and possible investigation

I see the latter point as possible, except for the caveat of point 1 above. Much harder to point fingers in such a situation and if they think they can actually achieve something with a significant upgrade then fair play to them. But OTOH I very much doubt they'd be able to produce anything with a game-changing amount of power. If they did they'd give it to their title contenders, too. If it's that good then a few grid position drops won't be an issue


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:07 pm 
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If a team did under fuel, they wouldn't come out at say we ran out of fuel. They would just give a message to the driver around 60% distance, we need to retire the car and in it comes to retire. This is really extreme and I only see this being used in the final around and probably only if the WCC is already won.

Brabham when they "invented refueling" took 3 races to succeed with it. They dominated the races but broke down before there pit stops in the first 2 attempts.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
If a team did under fuel, they wouldn't come out at say we ran out of fuel. They would just give a message to the driver around 60% distance, we need to retire the car and in it comes to retire. This is really extreme and I only see this being used in the final around and probably only if the WCC is already won.

Brabham when they "invented refueling" took 3 races to succeed with it. They dominated the races but broke down before there pit stops in the first 2 attempts.

yes, I guess it's possible. But with the advanced telemetry available today I don't think they'd be able to get away with it. And there would undoubtedly be a lot of questions if the number two driver suddenly looked as though he was using rocket fuel in the car. I think there are more minuses than pluses. Doubtful, but not impossible, I guess


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:50 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Quote:
However, if the Ferrari remains the car to beat, Hamilton says he will not gain extra motivation from fighting a rival with a better package, and needs to accepts that he will be limited in some races.

"There's only a certain amount that I can do, I can't always create miracles," he said. "There's going to be times like today when it doesn't work.

"We can still beat them at races, I just don't know which ones that's going to be in."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... 74/?nrt=54

How humble of Hamilton to admit he can't always create miracles. Alonso giving him PR lessons?

Rain miracles perhaps?

It was his creation?

Hamilton has won 5 races, which ones were against the odds apart from Baku which he lucked in with the SC which he himself put down to luck so he would hardly be calling that a miracle?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:00 am 
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Johnson wrote:
It seems that both teams will employ team orders very shortly, this could get very interesting indeed.

What are peoples thoughts on more extreme team orders? Lets say for example Ferrari/Mercedes have the constructors title basically won. How about using the 2nd car as an extreme spoiler that can get the lead of the race and control it (maybe on a weekend where the opposing car is stronger). This can be easily achieved by fueling the car at the start of the race with just 60% fuel. The car obviously won't finish but will be able to control the race as it will be around 2.0 seconds per lap quicker than if it had 100% fuel. Its quite easy to manipulate the race to the number 1's advantage.

Other things that could be done are spec 4 engines for the numbers 2. 3 race life upgraded special engines. They can take a penalty with 4 races to go and give the number 2 an extreme engine and more of a qualifying setup to get him on pole in order to control the races.

Do you think we will see anything like this?

You would be basically be sacrificing the WCC for the WDC, wasn't it said that Rosberg may have run with low fuel to try and help Prost aganst the 2 Williams drivers Mansell and Piquet in the end of season race in Australia, he got the lead and went at a pace to try and take the Williams cars around at a pace that might make them marginal on fuel, Rosberg retired from the race.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:53 am 
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Mansell didn’t need to beat Rosberg to win the championship, he only had to finish ahead of Prost, so that is rather doubtful.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:57 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rain miracles perhaps?

It was his creation?

Driving faster in the rain than Vettel was his creation, which I assume is what pokerman meant (being a bit tongue-in-cheek with the whole 'miracle' thing).

Ok, true miracle that. :-|

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:46 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Mansell didn’t need to beat Rosberg to win the championship, he only had to finish ahead of Prost, so that is rather doubtful.

He didn't even have to do that. He only had to finish 3rd and it wouldn't have mattered what Prost did. It was Piquet who needed to finish ahead of Prost as he was a single point down going into the last race


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:54 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It seems that both teams will employ team orders very shortly, this could get very interesting indeed.

What are peoples thoughts on more extreme team orders? Lets say for example Ferrari/Mercedes have the constructors title basically won. How about using the 2nd car as an extreme spoiler that can get the lead of the race and control it (maybe on a weekend where the opposing car is stronger). This can be easily achieved by fueling the car at the start of the race with just 60% fuel. The car obviously won't finish but will be able to control the race as it will be around 2.0 seconds per lap quicker than if it had 100% fuel. Its quite easy to manipulate the race to the number 1's advantage.

Other things that could be done are spec 4 engines for the numbers 2. 3 race life upgraded special engines. They can take a penalty with 4 races to go and give the number 2 an extreme engine and more of a qualifying setup to get him on pole in order to control the races.

Do you think we will see anything like this?

You would be basically be sacrificing the WCC for the WDC, wasn't it said that Rosberg may have run with low fuel to try and help Prost aganst the 2 Williams drivers Mansell and Piquet in the end of season race in Australia, he got the lead and went at a pace to try and take the Williams cars around at a pace that might make them marginal on fuel, Rosberg retired from the race.

The example given included "Lets say for example Ferrari/Mercedes have the constructors title basically won." So no, they wouldn't be sacrificing the WCC for the WDC. And Mansell only needed to finish 3rd to guarantee himself the title, assuming one of the other contenders even won the race (otherwise he basically didn't even need to finish), so it's not likely such a strategy would have been considered. Rosberg retired with a puncture.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:57 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Quote:
However, if the Ferrari remains the car to beat, Hamilton says he will not gain extra motivation from fighting a rival with a better package, and needs to accepts that he will be limited in some races.

"There's only a certain amount that I can do, I can't always create miracles," he said. "There's going to be times like today when it doesn't work.

"We can still beat them at races, I just don't know which ones that's going to be in."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... 74/?nrt=54

How humble of Hamilton to admit he can't always create miracles. Alonso giving him PR lessons?

Rain miracles perhaps?

It was his creation?

Hamilton has won 5 races, which ones were against the odds apart from Baku which he lucked in with the SC which he himself put down to luck so he would hardly be calling that a miracle?
I'd say Germany was against the odds. He needed several things to go his way and they did. Hungary possibly, although that was more qualifying than the race I'd say.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:50 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Mansell didn’t need to beat Rosberg to win the championship, he only had to finish ahead of Prost, so that is rather doubtful.

There was also his teammate Piquet, Rosberg's turn of pace was surprising and when he retired it was speculated upon.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:55 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It seems that both teams will employ team orders very shortly, this could get very interesting indeed.

What are peoples thoughts on more extreme team orders? Lets say for example Ferrari/Mercedes have the constructors title basically won. How about using the 2nd car as an extreme spoiler that can get the lead of the race and control it (maybe on a weekend where the opposing car is stronger). This can be easily achieved by fueling the car at the start of the race with just 60% fuel. The car obviously won't finish but will be able to control the race as it will be around 2.0 seconds per lap quicker than if it had 100% fuel. Its quite easy to manipulate the race to the number 1's advantage.

Other things that could be done are spec 4 engines for the numbers 2. 3 race life upgraded special engines. They can take a penalty with 4 races to go and give the number 2 an extreme engine and more of a qualifying setup to get him on pole in order to control the races.

Do you think we will see anything like this?

You would be basically be sacrificing the WCC for the WDC, wasn't it said that Rosberg may have run with low fuel to try and help Prost aganst the 2 Williams drivers Mansell and Piquet in the end of season race in Australia, he got the lead and went at a pace to try and take the Williams cars around at a pace that might make them marginal on fuel, Rosberg retired from the race.

The example given included "Lets say for example Ferrari/Mercedes have the constructors title basically won." So no, they wouldn't be sacrificing the WCC for the WDC. And Mansell only needed to finish 3rd to guarantee himself the title, assuming one of the other contenders even won the race (otherwise he basically didn't even need to finish), so it's not likely such a strategy would have been considered. Rosberg retired with a puncture.

Fair enough regarding Rosberg's puncture, regarding the WCC it's far from being won at the moment, the preposition seems to rely a bit on the WCC being won with races to go which isn't looking likely at the moment if the premise is that the cars will be close to equal?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:57 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rain miracles perhaps?

It was his creation?

Hamilton has won 5 races, which ones were against the odds apart from Baku which he lucked in with the SC which he himself put down to luck so he would hardly be calling that a miracle?
I'd say Germany was against the odds. He needed several things to go his way and they did. Hungary possibly, although that was more qualifying than the race I'd say.

Both of which were affected by the rain.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:25 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It seems that both teams will employ team orders very shortly, this could get very interesting indeed.

What are peoples thoughts on more extreme team orders? Lets say for example Ferrari/Mercedes have the constructors title basically won. How about using the 2nd car as an extreme spoiler that can get the lead of the race and control it (maybe on a weekend where the opposing car is stronger). This can be easily achieved by fueling the car at the start of the race with just 60% fuel. The car obviously won't finish but will be able to control the race as it will be around 2.0 seconds per lap quicker than if it had 100% fuel. Its quite easy to manipulate the race to the number 1's advantage.

Other things that could be done are spec 4 engines for the numbers 2. 3 race life upgraded special engines. They can take a penalty with 4 races to go and give the number 2 an extreme engine and more of a qualifying setup to get him on pole in order to control the races.

Do you think we will see anything like this?

You would be basically be sacrificing the WCC for the WDC, wasn't it said that Rosberg may have run with low fuel to try and help Prost aganst the 2 Williams drivers Mansell and Piquet in the end of season race in Australia, he got the lead and went at a pace to try and take the Williams cars around at a pace that might make them marginal on fuel, Rosberg retired from the race.

The example given included "Lets say for example Ferrari/Mercedes have the constructors title basically won." So no, they wouldn't be sacrificing the WCC for the WDC. And Mansell only needed to finish 3rd to guarantee himself the title, assuming one of the other contenders even won the race (otherwise he basically didn't even need to finish), so it's not likely such a strategy would have been considered. Rosberg retired with a puncture.

Fair enough regarding Rosberg's puncture, regarding the WCC it's far from being won at the moment, the preposition seems to rely a bit on the WCC being won with races to go which isn't looking likely at the moment if the premise is that the cars will be close to equal?

Yes if you look at my earlier comments I doubt such actions would take place, even if the WCC was won. And it's ;looking like the WCC will go down to the wire anyway


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:26 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rain miracles perhaps?

It was his creation?

Hamilton has won 5 races, which ones were against the odds apart from Baku which he lucked in with the SC which he himself put down to luck so he would hardly be calling that a miracle?
I'd say Germany was against the odds. He needed several things to go his way and they did. Hungary possibly, although that was more qualifying than the race I'd say.

Both of which were affected by the rain.

sure, but it was still against thew odds. Before each race you wouldn't have put Hamilton down for the win. You were asking which races he won against the odds?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Mansell didn’t need to beat Rosberg to win the championship, he only had to finish ahead of Prost, so that is rather doubtful.

There was also his teammate Piquet, Rosberg's turn of pace was surprising and when he retired it was speculated upon.

Again, though. Mansell didn't have to worry about a Piquet win as long as he came 3rd at least. And if either Piquet or Prost didn't win Mansell cold basically park the car and still win the title. So there was nothing Rosberg could do that would have affected the way Mansell approached the race. As a strategy it would have been pointless


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:31 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Mansell didn’t need to beat Rosberg to win the championship, he only had to finish ahead of Prost, so that is rather doubtful.

There was also his teammate Piquet, Rosberg's turn of pace was surprising and when he retired it was speculated upon.

Again, though. Mansell didn't have to worry about a Piquet win as long as he came 3rd at least. And if either Piquet or Prost didn't win Mansell cold basically park the car and still win the title. So there was nothing Rosberg could do that would have affected the way Mansell approached the race. As a strategy it would have been pointless

You said that Mansell only needed to finish 4th, what if he finished behind Rosberg, Prost and Piquet?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Mansell didn’t need to beat Rosberg to win the championship, he only had to finish ahead of Prost, so that is rather doubtful.

There was also his teammate Piquet, Rosberg's turn of pace was surprising and when he retired it was speculated upon.

Again, though. Mansell didn't have to worry about a Piquet win as long as he came 3rd at least. And if either Piquet or Prost didn't win Mansell cold basically park the car and still win the title. So there was nothing Rosberg could do that would have affected the way Mansell approached the race. As a strategy it would have been pointless

You said that Mansell only needed to finish 4th, what if he finished behind Rosberg, Prost and Piquet?

I thought I said 3rd? And he only needed to finish 3rd if either Prost or Piquet won. If Rosberg won, that would have played right into Mansell's hands and he wouldn't even have needed to finish


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:37 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
It was his creation?

Hamilton has won 5 races, which ones were against the odds apart from Baku which he lucked in with the SC which he himself put down to luck so he would hardly be calling that a miracle?
I'd say Germany was against the odds. He needed several things to go his way and they did. Hungary possibly, although that was more qualifying than the race I'd say.

Both of which were affected by the rain.

sure, but it was still against thew odds. Before each race you wouldn't have put Hamilton down for the win. You were asking which races he won against the odds?

I already knew which races he won against the odds, I was making a point that these were perhaps the miracles that Hamilton was referring to which I also related as being rain miracles.

This maybe a bit theatrical by Hamilton but when he said miracles I believe he might be referencing what he himself is able to do when it rains?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:40 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Mansell didn’t need to beat Rosberg to win the championship, he only had to finish ahead of Prost, so that is rather doubtful.

There was also his teammate Piquet, Rosberg's turn of pace was surprising and when he retired it was speculated upon.

Again, though. Mansell didn't have to worry about a Piquet win as long as he came 3rd at least. And if either Piquet or Prost didn't win Mansell cold basically park the car and still win the title. So there was nothing Rosberg could do that would have affected the way Mansell approached the race. As a strategy it would have been pointless

You said that Mansell only needed to finish 4th, what if he finished behind Rosberg, Prost and Piquet?

4th was a typo I meant what if he finished 4th.

I thought I said 3rd? And he only needed to finish 3rd if either Prost or Piquet won. If Rosberg won, that would have played right into Mansell's hands and he wouldn't even have needed to finish

If Rosberg was driving for Prost though then his priority would not be to win himself.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:42 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton has won 5 races, which ones were against the odds apart from Baku which he lucked in with the SC which he himself put down to luck so he would hardly be calling that a miracle?
I'd say Germany was against the odds. He needed several things to go his way and they did. Hungary possibly, although that was more qualifying than the race I'd say.

Both of which were affected by the rain.

sure, but it was still against thew odds. Before each race you wouldn't have put Hamilton down for the win. You were asking which races he won against the odds?

I already knew which races he won against the odds, I was making a point that these were perhaps the miracles that Hamilton was referring to which I also related as being rain miracles.

This maybe a bit theatrical by Hamilton but when he said miracles I believe he might be referencing what he himself is able to do when it rains?

How come it's OK for you to say it was a miracle for Hamilton that it rained yet when I said he was lucky it rained you were up in arms. Aren't we saying the same thing here?

I think Hamilton may have partly been referencing himself but I dpn't think it has to be that he's bigging himself up necessarily. He could also just be referencing the fact that he's managed to score maximum points which should really have gone to Ferrari, as a general point. I don't see it as a boast, really


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:46 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There was also his teammate Piquet, Rosberg's turn of pace was surprising and when he retired it was speculated upon.

Again, though. Mansell didn't have to worry about a Piquet win as long as he came 3rd at least. And if either Piquet or Prost didn't win Mansell cold basically park the car and still win the title. So there was nothing Rosberg could do that would have affected the way Mansell approached the race. As a strategy it would have been pointless

You said that Mansell only needed to finish 4th, what if he finished behind Rosberg, Prost and Piquet?

4th was a typo I meant what if he finished 4th.

I thought I said 3rd? And he only needed to finish 3rd if either Prost or Piquet won. If Rosberg won, that would have played right into Mansell's hands and he wouldn't even have needed to finish

If Rosberg was driving for Prost though then his priority would not be to win himself.

But the point is that as far as Mansell was concerned he didn't have to worry about what Rosberg did. Piquet may have done, but all Mansell had to do was stay in touch with 3rd and not worry too much about how far ahead Rosberg got. There was no point to the strategy. Rosberg could have broken the lap record every lap and Mansell could simply have ignored it.

In any event, the strategy, if true, was always going to end in Rosberg running out of fuel and not finishing the race. So Mansell still had nothing to worry about as 3rd was secure


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:50 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Both of which were affected by the rain.

sure, but it was still against thew odds. Before each race you wouldn't have put Hamilton down for the win. You were asking which races he won against the odds?

I already knew which races he won against the odds, I was making a point that these were perhaps the miracles that Hamilton was referring to which I also related as being rain miracles.

This maybe a bit theatrical by Hamilton but when he said miracles I believe he might be referencing what he himself is able to do when it rains?

How come it's OK for you to say it was a miracle for Hamilton that it rained yet when I said he was lucky it rained you were up in arms. Aren't we saying the same thing here?

I think Hamilton may have partly been referencing himself but I dpn't think it has to be that he's bigging himself up necessarily. He could also just be referencing the fact that he's managed to score maximum points which should really have gone to Ferrari, as a general point. I don't see it as a boast, really

I'm sure he referenced his own driving and it's only been the wet were he's managed to make the difference, did he not say he can't always perform miracles?

I'm not sure were you make the jump from performing a miracle to being plain lucky when it pertains to someones own performance?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:54 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Again, though. Mansell didn't have to worry about a Piquet win as long as he came 3rd at least. And if either Piquet or Prost didn't win Mansell cold basically park the car and still win the title. So there was nothing Rosberg could do that would have affected the way Mansell approached the race. As a strategy it would have been pointless

You said that Mansell only needed to finish 4th, what if he finished behind Rosberg, Prost and Piquet?

4th was a typo I meant what if he finished 4th.

I thought I said 3rd? And he only needed to finish 3rd if either Prost or Piquet won. If Rosberg won, that would have played right into Mansell's hands and he wouldn't even have needed to finish

If Rosberg was driving for Prost though then his priority would not be to win himself.

But the point is that as far as Mansell was concerned he didn't have to worry about what Rosberg did. Piquet may have done, but all Mansell had to do was stay in touch with 3rd and not worry too much about how far ahead Rosberg got. There was no point to the strategy. Rosberg could have broken the lap record every lap and Mansell could simply have ignored it.

In any event, the strategy, if true, was always going to end in Rosberg running out of fuel and not finishing the race. So Mansell still had nothing to worry about as 3rd was secure

Well that's a point that Mansell was not to know that and was just to put extra pressure on him, as such it would be a desperate measure against poor odds of succeeding.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:02 pm 
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So Red Bull are happy with the new Spec-C Renault engine, but one line caught my eye:

It's understood the Spec C performed better with Red Bull's ExxonMobil fuel than it did with the works team's Castrol fuel on the dyno.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/138434/red-bull-renault-new-engine-has-delivered

What the..? How is that even possible? Don't the manufacturers spend millions working in close collaboration with the fuel suppliers? 8O


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Was Austria on the special tyres? I know Spain, France and GB were. Mercedes have basically lost all there strong tracks. There most dominant performances last year were GB, Baku, Monza and USA.

Ferrari have completely eliminated the Mercedes strong tracks whilst maintaining there own strengths (Monaco, Hungary, Singapore, probably Malaysia too).

Looking at the run in, I can't see a race that I think Mercedes can be stronger at. The wet weathe, special tyres and Vettel errors have kept this close but there are no more special tyres and you can't rely on rain every weekend. Mercedes need a big upgrade or some luck at this point.

You have to say congratulations to Ferrari, for the first time since 2008 they built a car that can turn up and fight for every race win and every pole position. They truly are back after a decade of living off scraps.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Was Austria on the special tyres? I know Spain, France and GB were. Mercedes have basically lost all there strong tracks. There most dominant performances last year were GB, Baku, Monza and USA.

Ferrari have completely eliminated the Mercedes strong tracks whilst maintaining there own strengths (Monaco, Hungary, Singapore, probably Malaysia too).

Looking at the run in, I can't see a race that I think Mercedes can be stronger at. The wet weathe, special tyres and Vettel errors have kept this close but there are no more special tyres and you can't rely on rain every weekend. Mercedes need a big upgrade or some luck at this point.

You have to say congratulations to Ferrari, for the first time since 2008 they built a car that can turn up and fight for every race win and every pole position. They truly are back after a decade of living off scraps.

Mercedes will need to hire some professional rain dancers because I agree with you here. Ferrari should have the edge pretty much everywhere from here on out. In terms of upgrades; this year Ferrari have absolutely kept pace with Mercedes if not pulled ahead! They seem to have the Mercs covered in all areas. Hamilton and Mercedes will need to rely on making fewer mistakes and perhaps catching a few breaks with weather or safety cars. On outright pace, Ferrari have them beat.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:35 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Q2 time was very close between top3. Going by Vettel and Mercedes comments I think Mercedes have reduced Ferrari 0.4sec advantage from Silverstone. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/8/ferrari-have-the-power-advantage-now---mercedes-.html

Vettel said they were using lower downforce and Mercedes said their engine is not bad but traction and slower corner is more concern for them. In Monza they have some upgrades so it will be interesting how that goes


I wouldn't make any assumptions on Q2. The top cars can get through to Q3 while saving tyres pretty easy. It's a pity Q3 wasn't dry so we can see the comparisons, pretty sure it would have been a Vettel pole.


I knew it was going to close this weekend. I would say Mercedes needs to improve traction, tyre wear, slower corner as Mercedes themselves admitted. That is where they are loosing time on Ferrari. Championship will be decided based on qualifying, mistakes and reliability.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Was Austria on the special tyres? I know Spain, France and GB were. Mercedes have basically lost all there strong tracks. There most dominant performances last year were GB, Baku, Monza and USA.

Ferrari have completely eliminated the Mercedes strong tracks whilst maintaining there own strengths (Monaco, Hungary, Singapore, probably Malaysia too).

Looking at the run in, I can't see a race that I think Mercedes can be stronger at. The wet weathe, special tyres and Vettel errors have kept this close but there are no more special tyres and you can't rely on rain every weekend. Mercedes need a big upgrade or some luck at this point.

You have to say congratulations to Ferrari, for the first time since 2008 they built a car that can turn up and fight for every race win and every pole position. They truly are back after a decade of living off scraps.

Indeed going on from here I wouldn't be putting Mercedes forward in winning any of the races.

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